Suggestion on how to keep the harsh without going too harsh

[Aruven]

Man this game really gets to people. The only time I've been offended is when I knew some OOC shit went on to get my character slapped the fuck down. I put alot of time into this game. Freakishly sometimes. I think last week I was on like, 8 hours straight at one point. Maybe I just haven't met the assholes. I'm not sensitive to the game. I'll kill and torture and exploit. I'll always consider the other player on the end at least enjoying the scene, so i will not spam kill you, but shit, we live on a desert planet spiraling towards apocalypse now. People die. Fuck storylines, and plotlines, if they aren't yours. If you're playing out your concept and character to the bone, no harm no foul, no matter who's shit your effing up. Your having fun, making the game a real place. More power to you.

Add: *cough* Response to the last few posts on this thread.

[Armaddict]

If you're going to harm/abuse our characters, please do so in a way that advances a storyline or provides us with some measure of amusement as well.

I think this is the most important part.

Sure, but as I said earlier there are some people who will never be pleased with anything negative happening to their pcs at the hands of another pc, no matter what lengths you go through to make it entertaining for all involved. Also, for better or worse, it almost always advances a storyline, whether you like it or not.

Alas, I disagree. When someone dies, half or more of whatever storyline they're involved with is gone as well. It's hard for a storyline of a character to continue after they die, even if they are one of the most popular, connected, successful PC's of their era. However, if the character in question's death brings about long-lasting change...(Perhaps a Noble being assassinated, leading to an uproar and lynching party that brings a group of criminals to justice.)...Well, that's cool, but not to be expected.

Sometimes it dies.  Sometimes a new one arises.  Sometimes the old one modifies.  The point he was getting at, was that the game continues, and it becomes a very small issue in the broad scope of things, even if what was being built for was titanic.  It's similar to real life that way.

[jhunter]

If you're going to harm/abuse our characters, please do so in a way that advances a storyline or provides us with some measure of amusement as well.

I think this is the most important part.

Sure, but as I said earlier there are some people who will never be pleased with anything negative happening to their pcs at the hands of another pc, no matter what lengths you go through to make it entertaining for all involved. Also, for better or worse, it almost always advances a storyline, whether you like it or not.

Alas, I disagree. When someone dies, half or more of whatever storyline they're involved with is gone as well. It's hard for a storyline of a character to continue after they die, even if they are one of the most popular, connected, successful PC's of their era. However, if the character in question's death brings about long-lasting change...(Perhaps a Noble being assassinated, leading to an uproar and lynching party that brings a group of criminals to justice.)...Well, that's cool, but not to be expected.

Every character's personal story comes to an end sometime. It doesn't mean that the story doesn't go on for everyone else. It just means that particular character's part is over. I've had character's deaths spawn new plotlines and further existing ones for others around them.

[valeria]

I don't think anyone harms or abuses others characters in a way that doesn't advance their personal storyline on a regular basis, and doesn't get smacked for it.  Who are you to tell me that your character's storyline is more important than mine?

I like the harshness in the game.  I wish more of my characters were in PC involved deaths than their
usual sort of deaths (usually involving noobish moments of NPC or environmental lameness).  I love it when my characters have reasons to hate or be mean to other characters, and I love it when characters hate or are mean to mine back.  Everything advances someone's story, and every good story ends somewhere.

[Akaramu]

Food for thought: If you're being harsh to the player rather than the character, and make them want to play World of Warcraft instead of Armageddon, you're doing something wrong.

[jhunter]

Food for thought: If you're being harsh to the player rather than the character, and make them want to play World of Warcraft instead of Armageddon, you're doing something wrong.

Other than going OOC, how can one be harsh to the player and not the character? Seems to me that it's just a matter of perception on the part of the victim.

[Akaramu]

One randomly made up example:

Punishing the character of a player who can play 3 hours a day, and only during semi-offpeak, because they were not able to finish a task given to them in a timely manner - the ambitious character of the peak time player who is logged in 12 hours a day took care of the task instead, despite it not being their job.

Actually, this is not so randomly made up, I was in such a situation years ago. A 12 hour, peak time player did / figured out / reported everything, and the leader breathed down my character's neck, and treated her like crap because I could not keep up with my exhausted 3 online hours after 10 hour work shifts. It made the clan experience very unenjoyable.

Sometimes, you have to remember you're interacting with people who just want to have a fun experience in their free time.

[Romy]

Pussification

-- George Carlin

[Marauder Moe]

Either that was a very odd first post, or a very ironic thing for someone to say while hiding behind an alt account.   

[deviant storm]

Pussification

-- George Carlin

Care to explain? I'm not going to judge you by post count, but I do abhor those who have to make up alt accounts because they feel like trolling. And one little quote without any real input to the discussion is just that. Trolling.

Please enlighten us instead. And thank you.

[Nyr]

For that sketch reference to be accurate, we'd have to be growing less harsh over time.  I'm not entirely convinced we've been doing that.

[Romy]

Either that was a very odd first post, or a very ironic thing for someone to say while hiding behind an alt account.   

Just an odd first post. I have only had one character so far, and I lurk.

In response to your latter statement:

"Give a man a mask, and he will tell you the truth."

[Romy]

For that sketch reference to be accurate, we'd have to be growing less harsh over time.  I'm not entirely convinced we've been doing that.

I honestly wouldn't know since I'm new. I just jumped at the chance to quote Carlin. My post wasn't a referendum on your game, so much as homage to my hero.

*fades back into the shadows*

[deviant storm]

For that sketch reference to be accurate, we'd have to be growing less harsh over time.  I'm not entirely convinced we've been doing that.

I honestly wouldn't know since I'm new. I just jumped at the chance to quote Carlin. My post wasn't a referendum on your game, so much as homage to my hero.

*fades back into the shadows*

Carlin rocks, agreed. But, yeah. Someone could have taken that remark personally. 

Thanks for explaining, though. Welcome to Armageddon!

[RogueGunslinger]

Someone could have taken that remark personally. 

Yeah, pussies. 

[jhunter]

One randomly made up example:

Punishing the character of a player who can play 3 hours a day, and only during semi-offpeak, because they were not able to finish a task given to them in a timely manner - the ambitious character of the peak time player who is logged in 12 hours a day took care of the task instead, despite it not being their job.

Actually, this is not so randomly made up, I was in such a situation years ago. A 12 hour, peak time player did / figured out / reported everything, and the leader breathed down my character's neck, and treated her like crap because I could not keep up with my exhausted 3 online hours after 10 hour work shifts. It made the clan experience very unenjoyable.

Sometimes, you have to remember you're interacting with people who just want to have a fun experience in their free time.

So, wait a minute. You're saying that they should take something OOC into consideration and have it influence how their pc behaves ICly? Otherwise, they're being OOC mean? That doesn't sound right.  By acting IC, which is what we are all supposed to be striving to do at all times, they're being mean to you out of character. Sounds like you're putting the other person in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

[deviant storm]

One randomly made up example:

Punishing the character of a player who can play 3 hours a day, and only during semi-offpeak, because they were not able to finish a task given to them in a timely manner - the ambitious character of the peak time player who is logged in 12 hours a day took care of the task instead, despite it not being their job.

Actually, this is not so randomly made up, I was in such a situation years ago. A 12 hour, peak time player did / figured out / reported everything, and the leader breathed down my character's neck, and treated her like crap because I could not keep up with my exhausted 3 online hours after 10 hour work shifts. It made the clan experience very unenjoyable.

Sometimes, you have to remember you're interacting with people who just want to have a fun experience in their free time.

So, wait a minute. You're saying that they should take something OOC into consideration and have it influence how their pc behaves ICly? Otherwise, they're being OOC mean? That doesn't sound right.  By acting IC, which is what we are all supposed to be striving to do at all times, they're being mean to you out of character. Sounds like you're putting the other person in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

Obviously there has to be some consideration for ooc. This is, after all, only a game. If someone can't devote more than 3 hours a day, I don't see why they should be punished icly. To do otherwise is just taking ic a little too far.

[WagonsHo]

I like to hand out lashings to people who go link dead.

[Barzalene]

I like to hand out lashings to people who go link dead.

Me too!
And I'm not in a leadership role! I had to buy my own whip and everything!

[Akaramu]

So, wait a minute. You're saying that they should take something OOC into consideration and have it influence how their pc behaves ICly? Otherwise, they're being OOC mean? That doesn't sound right.  By acting IC, which is what we are all supposed to be striving to do at all times, they're being mean to you out of character. Sounds like you're putting the other person in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

Yes, they should. Acting IC should not reach the point where you make people not want to play. There are always different ways of handling things ICly, including options that are OOCly considerate towards other players, even if they suck for the PC. Every other leader I ever had above me, even some fairly bad ones, did not base their like or dislike of an underling on the player's timezone and hours logged in per day. They would treat offline time as time spent on virtual clan duties, not time spent slacking and failing. They also would not give players with limited time impossible to achieve tasks that would force them to either skip work, or else be a failure IC.

Offline time is something completely OOC. If someone is not capable of taking this into consideration, then I don't know what to say. There are other completely OOC aspects about the game that I don't feel should be used against characters, but I won't go into those.

[jhunter]

And you know for a fact in this situation that they are 100% aware of how much time you play? You make it sound as if they are monitoring the amount of time you play and using that information as a basis for their decision to punish your pc ICly. To me, that doesn't sound like the case.

[jhunter]

One randomly made up example:

Punishing the character of a player who can play 3 hours a day, and only during semi-offpeak, because they were not able to finish a task given to them in a timely manner - the ambitious character of the peak time player who is logged in 12 hours a day took care of the task instead, despite it not being their job.

Actually, this is not so randomly made up, I was in such a situation years ago. A 12 hour, peak time player did / figured out / reported everything, and the leader breathed down my character's neck, and treated her like crap because I could not keep up with my exhausted 3 online hours after 10 hour work shifts. It made the clan experience very unenjoyable.

Sometimes, you have to remember you're interacting with people who just want to have a fun experience in their free time.

So, wait a minute. You're saying that they should take something OOC into consideration and have it influence how their pc behaves ICly? Otherwise, they're being OOC mean? That doesn't sound right.  By acting IC, which is what we are all supposed to be striving to do at all times, they're being mean to you out of character. Sounds like you're putting the other person in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

Obviously there has to be some consideration for ooc. This is, after all, only a game. If someone can't devote more than 3 hours a day, I don't see why they should be punished icly. To do otherwise is just taking ic a little too far.

If they are aware of the amount of the time person has available to play and this is the basis for their decision to punish your pc ICly then yes, that makes them an OOC prick. That doesn't mean those assumptions are correct however.

[Akaramu]

Yes, they were aware. I posted my playtimes on the clan forums. The leader knew I couldn't play the right hours of the day to meet up with the peak-time PCs I was supposed to talk to (and it was ICly pointed out they are available later in the week), and still threw a hissy fit about it IC.

Anyway, it was just supposed to be an example. Let's return the discussion to broader concerns.

[jriley]

Pussification

-- George Carlin

Heh.  You know, that quote you used reminds me of when I play basketball.  I always trash talk when I play basetball.  It's because I'm so bad at it.  I trash talk because occaisionally I can bluff out a stronger player.  Yeah, basketball.

Food for thought: If you're being harsh to the player rather than the character, and make them want to play World of Warcraft instead of Armageddon, you're doing something wrong.

Seriously.  If people really want to make the game harsher, I think they ought to pay more attention to making sure that their fellow players are having a good time.  Imagine how harsh the game would be if some of the old-school players would come --BACK-- to Armageddon, having fled to a game that (comparitively) has a more mature player base.

[Armaddict]

So, wait a minute. You're saying that they should take something OOC into consideration and have it influence how their pc behaves ICly? Otherwise, they're being OOC mean? That doesn't sound right.  By acting IC, which is what we are all supposed to be striving to do at all times, they're being mean to you out of character. Sounds like you're putting the other person in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

Yes, they should. Acting IC should not reach the point where you make people not want to play. There are always different ways of handling things ICly, including options that are OOCly considerate towards other players, even if they suck for the PC. Every other leader I ever had above me, even some fairly bad ones, did not base their like or dislike of an underling on the player's timezone and hours logged in per day. They would treat offline time as time spent on virtual clan duties, not time spent slacking and failing. They also would not give players with limited time impossible to achieve tasks that would force them to either skip work, or else be a failure IC.

Offline time is something completely OOC. If someone is not capable of taking this into consideration, then I don't know what to say. There are other completely OOC aspects about the game that I don't feel should be used against characters, but I won't go into those.

So Ironic, with all the 'Keep it IC', 'Find out IC', 'Do not spread IC info OOC', so on and so forth, that people still think 'Take OOC feelings that cannot be clearly conveyed into account.'