Suggestion on how to keep the harsh without going too harsh

[Barzalene]

This should probably go in random thoughts or something. I was thinking about Deviant Storm's post. And about the balance between someone feeling exhilarated by the danger and beat down by the Man or Noobled.

I think when your pc is a hard ass you should show up prepared to do your worst. But I think you should always, unless a grievous crime has been committed give people an out. Especially for small mistakes. For real infractions, of course not.

[Armaddict]

Pretty sure I witnessed the scene in question.  It was harassment, there was no death or beating involved.  Destruction of some food.  Not what it seems like people are jumping to, in that someone got pkilled outright for something minor.

[deviant storm]

How to explain without getting into the whole ic.


No, I wasn't instakilled. Strangely, I could handle that just fine. You move on, you make a new char.

I think it's just that I'm playing in a way I haven't before. And keeping my character alive seems way harder than it ever has before...did they do stuff to the economy again to make it harsher? I had food for a change. Then I did something and someone did something and then I wanted my stuff back and things went to where that just wasn't going to happen. In the most humiliating way it could be played out.

And I snapped and left. And I'm sorry to the other players that I couldn't be more 'professional' or that I couldn't take it.

I'm just going to take that break. Though, yeah...some things just felt like they went too far.

[boog]

I think in order to be able to be harsh in game, you can't have the same feelings OOCly. In my short time here, I've seen so much of peoples' personalities bleed into the game, and while sometimes it's hard to separate that line, I think we all need to do our best to do such. It's okay to get your heart going and your thoughts racing, but you shouldn't resent, be a douche, whatever, OOCly and bring it in game, unless your character is the exact spitting image of yourself. (Which would prolly be really boring to play.)

[Barzalene]

I guess I just meant in general. I remember once,a few years ago, getting banished in my first ten minutes of play for a truly minor infraction. My pc, begged and offered a donation and and apologized and was repentant. But I was banished, all my sid taken, no shoes, no food, no water. And it wasn't death, but it lead to death. And I like that the game is harsh, but I hated losing that pc before I got to play her.

Maybe what I failed to say on the first go, not responding specifically any particular incident, but rather to the question in the abstract, is if your going to do something that will substantially affect another pc, in a life altering way, for effect rather than cause, it's good to try to give them a chance, to save themselves. Not a big open yawning exit, but maybe leave that door unlocked.

[Barzalene]

Also, I didn't respond in DS's thread because I don't so much want to address the situation in particular but rather the idea in general.

[Lizzie]

I've had 3 characters in a row killed by the same PC. Prior to those three, I had one that was harrassed by the same PC. After that, I had another one that was threatened by the same PC.

Although it was all IC, and all legit, it still stinks. As a result of this sour taste in my mouth, I'm pretty much avoiding playing certain roles, in certain locations. All so I don't have to deal with that one PC. Because I, the player, am just bored with the same old same old from that particular character. It was old after the first two had runins with them. After five, it's just stupid.

How to keep the harsh without going too harsh? There is no way to prevent it. There's only damage control after the fact, and even that isn't foolproof.

[brytta.leofa]

Players in trusted roles (high karma, special app, sponsored) can make their area of the game miserable for everyone else.  Such players have a responsibility to (a) know what makes a reasonable player miserable and (b) not do that.  (Hint: most players are quite willing to deal with the normal IC consequences of their actions.)

But, honestly, most of the Annoying Things Noobles Do aren't good play even if you disregard what they're doing for playability, whether it's a slumming junior noble insisting on bows from everyone in sight or a blue robe teaching the populace how gorgeously unpredictable he is.

[Barzalene]

I think Brytta makes a really good point.

Truly, I'm not trying to nice up or water down the game. Just looking for ways to keep things exciting while still keeping things playable for the most people the most part of the time.

Mind you when someone's really got it coming, you have to really let it happen. Some people are just not going to be happy till something gets hacked off. And sometimes hacking things off is the right way to go.

[Samira]

Maybe what I failed to say on the first go, not responding specifically any particular incident, but rather to the question in the abstract, is if your going to do something that will substantially affect another pc, in a life altering way, for effect rather than cause, it's good to try to give them a chance, to save themselves. Not a big open yawning exit, but maybe leave that door unlocked.

I agree completely.  

Also, messing up someone's PC at random and just because you can is inane and adds nothing to the game.

[HavokBlue]

This thread makes me feel terrible about the two PCs I killed on my first character. 

[jhunter]

For the most part I think things are usually done well. I do remember a time a while back when it seemed like every d-elf pc in the game was out pk'ing every non-elf they encountered outside of the gates. Even right outside the cities. I think I lost like 3-4 consecutive attempts to the same few d-elves and was pretty pissed about it. Nobles and templars in general, some where played better than others but I really have no beef with anything that has ever happened to my pcs or to others that I have witnessed.

[Barzalene]

I think some random fucking with people is good. As long as they have a chance to survive it intact.

[Qzzrbl]

Pretty much what Barzalene said.

It's best to keep a good savage beating/murder ratio.

Pkill only when you've got a good reason too, beat every other problem to a bloody pulp, take a few coins and maybe a nice piece of gear, and leave them to sleep off their unconsciousness.

It's actually really surprising how many people aren't all "RAGE I'LL KILL YOU NEXT TIME I GET THE CHANCE TO!!!" when you just beat the crap out of 'em.

[Three Suns]

REDACTED.

[gfair]

It's actually really surprising how many people aren't all "RAGE I'LL KILL YOU NEXT TIME I GET THE CHANCE TO!!!" when you just beat the crap out of 'em.

This doesn't surprise me. If I get my ass kicked, I'm not vowing to try to beat up the guy I just tried to be up who, in turn, beat me up instead. I'm leaving Bad Muthfluffa alone. Chances are, unless you find some way to train harder than the dude does, he will / she will be able to continually whoop your butt if you go at them again.

[jriley]

I've run into similar situations before. 

Once upon a time I made a post recommending that players should be able to see the accounts of other players/staff that they are interacting with.

On the surface it sounds crazy.  Think about it...if you went around randomly PKing people, would you really want them to know your account name?  But that's just the point.  If you're the sort of player who really, really wants to keep your account name secret then I think you're probably a part of the problem.

Obviously, some people will point out that if we know which character were associated with which player we would role-play in a biased manner.  But I think that pretty much happens anyways -- we role play differently around strangers since we're still busy feeling them out. 

So I'm not really saying that having visible account names would be a perfect idea, but at the least I think that creating some measure of accountability would improve things.  Again, if you're really freaked out by the very concept, then chances are that you're part of the problem.

I've had 3 characters in a row killed by the same PC. Prior to those three, I had one that was harrassed by the same PC. After that, I had another one that was threatened by the same PC.

Although it was all IC, and all legit, it still stinks. As a result of this sour taste in my mouth, I'm pretty much avoiding playing certain roles, in certain locations. All so I don't have to deal with that one PC. Because I, the player, am just bored with the same old same old from that particular character. It was old after the first two had runins with them. After five, it's just stupid.

How to keep the harsh without going too harsh? There is no way to prevent it. There's only damage control after the fact, and even that isn't foolproof.

[Qzzrbl]

Again, if you're really freaked out by the very concept, then chances are that you're part of the problem.

There are -plenty- of reasons to want to keep your account name secret....

Besides, it it's a moot suggestion because we already have an avenue for sending player complaints-- especially if it's an unjust/random/stupid pk.

[Dan]

Whatever happened to murder, corruption, and betrayal? This game is supposed to be harsh, it is Zalanthas. Backstab, plot, scheme your way to the top if thats the type of character your playing. On the other hand, if your trying to play someone who is all about being nice to everyone then don't get mad when someone uses this against you. If you ask me, this game has gotten considerably softer over the last few years. Now, I do digress with this but I wanted to put my thoughts out before addressing the actual question.


Start small in all of your encounters, but brutalize often. Doing something minor to each person you are messing with and gradually intensifying it will give the victim ample time to gang up on you with friends, find a way to get on your good side (an underused option), or generally change the behavior that has you targetting them.

As far as the account name suggestion. I don't care if other people know mine, but in all honesty I don't want to know theirs. I want to play with other peoples characters, not with other people. You'd eventually have situations where certain accounts are seen together over and over. In some cases by chance, and this would raise a whole mess in itself. No thanks.

[Lizzie]

Dan it's all well and good, the murder corruption betrayal thing. And like I said, all the incidences revolving around this other person's PC were legit, and totally IC, and furthermore I doubt they even knew I was the player of all five subsequent characters.

But when ONE character causes that much misery to five characters, each played by the same player, one right after the other, it leaves a really sour taste in one's mouth. I didn't cry foul to the staff, because it wasn't foul play. It was legitimate RP, but I feel some of it was completely unnecessary. Mostly it just seems to me that the PC's player was grasping at straws for something interesting to do, and decided my characters' stories were interesting enough. Which again, I have to emphasize, is legit from my perspective. It just really sucks to be the target time after time. Which is why I no longer play in that area. At all.

Fortunately, the game is big enough, and I've discovered enough fun stuff to do without having to go near that place, that I don't feel like I'm missing anything.

[slipshod]

I've had 3 characters in a row killed by the same PC. Prior to those three, I had one that was harrassed by the same PC. After that, I had another one that was threatened by the same PC.

Although it was all IC, and all legit, it still stinks. As a result of this sour taste in my mouth, I'm pretty much avoiding playing certain roles, in certain locations. All so I don't have to deal with that one PC. Because I, the player, am just bored with the same old same old from that particular character. It was old after the first two had runins with them. After five, it's just stupid.

I really hope you reported this or filed a player complaint.  If you haven't, it's not too late and I think you should.  I can't recall going too far with hassling someone, and I certainly wouldn't know if different PCs were played by the same person, but your post has me worried that I'm the offending party and if you didn't file a report I'll never know.  It's not IC for your characters to avoid a whole area of the game because of something that happened to a previous, deceased character.  If the problem was bad enough that it has these OOC consequences, then it can also deserve an OOC report.

[flurry]

A little OOC consideration can go a long way. Sometimes it can be the difference between providing reasonable IC harshness or unduly ruining another player's experience.

One of my most miserable playing experiences came when I was playing a sponsored role. During one part of that character's life, I had put a good deal of effort into a particular project, over a few RL months. A newer sponsored character showed up on the scene, same clan, and hit the ground running in quickly working to dismantle all my efforts on that project. Soon it was readily apparent he was well aware that this was exactly what he was doing, as part of his own goals. From an IC point of view, it was completely legit. However, it felt so blatantly inconsiderate on the OOC level. In part, this was because this other player was putting substantially more hours into the game at that time, and was working that OOC advantage to the hilt. More importantly, I felt that someone else in a sponsored role should understand how much work can be involved in long-term projects, and shouldn't demolish mine with that degree of careless disregard. I expect harshness, but I also expect a little OOC consideration. I lost a lot of respect for that player, and also lost a lot of incentive to put forward the same level of effort in future projects. Yes, I went on to continue to enjoy that role, but at the expense of certain goals I'd had.

We're all out there building sand castles, and there are better and more interesting ways to be harsh than simply stomping all over others' efforts.

[RedKingsBreaker]

Unless there is some reason that I should know why you're about to kill my pc, please do not tell me.  I can always use the request tool to get things figured out if something 'feels' wrong.

Otherwise you're just monologuing about your badassery and the brilliant plan that is to come while you're very, very slolwy lowering me into a vat of sharks with laser beams on their heads (and be sure to shut the door before all is resolved).  People need to trust their fellow players or if something feels really wrong, use the request tool, that's what it's there for.

[spawnloser]

I have only a couple things to say...

• First, there IS a difference between IC harassment and OOC griefing.
• I don't play in Tuluk any more because of 1 character that I assume is still alive in that city.

[Cutthroat]

I think there are a lot of IC things that people with power can do, that they should restrain themselves from doing for IC reasons. vNPC templars and nobles can murder people on a whim or take valuable things from people, sure, and while a PC will get away with this ICly, they won't necessarily get away with it OOCly, where they are accountable to staff and, indirectly, to the player they're victimizing through griefing. Players with power are supposed to know that their powers have OOC limits that end when OOCly, it makes no sense for playability reasons.

I've had 3 characters in a row killed by the same PC. Prior to those three, I had one that was harrassed by the same PC. After that, I had another one that was threatened by the same PC.

Although it was all IC, and all legit, it still stinks. As a result of this sour taste in my mouth, I'm pretty much avoiding playing certain roles, in certain locations. All so I don't have to deal with that one PC.

• I don't play in Tuluk any more because of 1 character that I assume is still alive in that city.

Although it's probably tempting to get away from troublemaker PCs/players like this, I would suggest using the request tool to fire off a player complaint (provided you haven't done this already) instead of avoiding a location or situation you otherwise like, so that staff know about it and handle it appropriately. It might be too late now, and I doubt you two are the only ones who feel that way, but at least let staff know (and let staff let the player know, or else how can they improve?).