Unofficial subguild discussion thread

[janeshephard]

With the new policy of not changing subguilds after char creation, maybe instead of posting in ask the staff there should be a thread to discuss this. Post your concerns here.

I've never asked for a subguild change. I've always wondered, however, which subguilds can forage for food. I've always found the cryptic responses to guilds as not helpful to the players. I'm not sure why skills and skill trees are such a guarded thing on this mud. I'm not looking for staff accountability on this. My concern specifically is why "forage food" is held as a secret for which guilds/subguilds it works for.

[RogueGunslinger]

That sucks. I've made this mistake before.

[Synthesis]

Subguild Scavenger     (Character)

Scavengers, skilled in surviving the wilds, particularly ruins such as those of Tuluk, are able to find food where others might not. They are quick to find items and have a shrewd eye towards their possible worth. In order to find objects out of reach of others they have learned to find paths that aren't apparent to the casual observer, and go into caves, windows, and holes in the wall which require a short climb.

See Also:
    guilds, subguilds

So secret it's in the help files!

[janeshephard]

Subguild Scavenger     (Character)

Scavengers, skilled in surviving the wilds, particularly ruins such as those of Tuluk, are able to find food where others might not. They are quick to find items and have a shrewd eye towards their possible worth. In order to find objects out of reach of others they have learned to find paths that aren't apparent to the casual observer, and go into caves, windows, and holes in the wall which require a short climb.

See Also:
    guilds, subguilds

So secret it's in the help files!

I'm aware of this but if you look at the forage helpfile it gives a vague response on which guilds can find food via forage.

[jriley]

I've always found the cryptic responses to guilds as not helpful to the players.

+1

[X-D]

Well, Nyr did answer one of my questions at least. Answer, No, we staff have not given this any thought at all.

Anyway. Unlike main guilds, Staff has often said that a subguild is like a hobby.

If that is the case then the skills given SHOULD be clearly listed. Not like they branch or even get that high.

But Cryptic helpfiles were not that bad when you could get things fixed later.

Now you are being told "Make sure you have exactly what you want because you cannot get it changed." Yet there is not a clear listing of skills so there is no way you can be Sure, specialy if your a newer player.

(edit)
I don't feel like posting in ask the staff again.

So again, bringing up a subject from months back when the situation has changed makes no sense.
Even if they have had some oversights fixed, they are still not clear, IE, people will easily make mistakes in interpretation. This should be fixed,

Or, If I cannot have my PC fixed because something I saw made me think something other then it really is then it should be fixed so this CANNOT happen. Why? because I CANNOT get it fixed if it does...get it?

Rebels are skilled in the guerilla arts, including the ability to move silently in the wilderness with a strong sense of direction. They can construct their own weapons, and repair armor

Example that does not give things away. So, Rebels can make weapons, Sweet, I don't need to take weaponscrafter.....makes PC....logs in...Oh...they can only make one style...and it is not one I need...Great, would have been nice to know that before I submitted...Shit, staff will not change my sub for me....w;s;s;s;s;s;s;s;s;s;s;s;s;s;
Your drowning in silt...Beep.

[Armaddict]

I have an idea.

Adapt.  Fix the character.  Fit the subguild.

Jesus christ, I've never had to have my subguild changed.  Ever.  I've chosen subguilds that had little to do with the concept and that I didn't use anything much, they just became an 'interesting nuance' in my character's skillset.  'Oh.  You can work with flowers.  I never would've guessed.'

Don't start to turn this into some giant ordeal because you can't change something -after- creation.  Just learn what that subguild offers, and move on.  There are plenty of others who have done it, and so can you, I believe in you.

[Lizzie]

Another one is subguild tailor - as opposed to subguild clothworker - which doesn't exist, even though the name of the skill is clothworking, and tailor is a whole different helpfile pertaining to the syntax for getting something fixed at an NPC's shop.

It says tailors (which they aren't - clothworkers/seamstresses create the garments that get tailored, after they've been made - and subguild-tailor is not capable of tailoring existing garments)..

anyway. It says they're great at driving shrewd bargains. But, how would they know whether or not they're bargains, if they don't have the value skill? Last I checked, tailors don't get value. So they don't know what something is actually worth. And therefore, are not capable of discerning whether or not they're driving bargains, shrewd or otherwise. If by "driving shrewd bargains" it means they can get things cheaper at NPCs and pay less at shops, then sure. But how would you know, that the 400-sid broadsword you just paid 200 sids for, is even worth the 200 sids you just paid for it, if you don't have the value skill?

[X-D]

Hey, thanks there Armadict...news flash, we are not all you and think about the poor newbs, who cannot learn what the subs are because the help files are unclear, and by the time they do then they are no longer newbs.

And you adapt to fit a guild, Subguilds on the other hand...well, they are just that, subguilds, Something you pick to augment a PC because hopefully you know the skills they get.

[Armaddict]

Alright.  Let me rephrase.

Please be more careful when going through character generation.  We do not have the manpower to be doing things like changing subguilds after a character has entered the game.  As such we will no longer approve requests to change your subguild if you messed it up in character generation or if you got in game and realized that another would make more sense.  What you choose at character generation now sticks.

Sorry for any inconvenience this my bring.

This is a message from one of your volunteer staff, saying that while it's been done, it is either taking too much time, too much effort, or is being done too much to the point that it takes up one of those things, and that they no longer want to do it anymore, so he gave fair warning.  The response was a request for the staff to do something, to spend some time, and to put in some more effort.

news flash, we are not all you and think about the poor newbs, who cannot learn what the subs are because the help files are unclear, and by the time they do then they are no longer newbs.

I still don't know all the subguilds, either.  Fortunately, it doesn't make or break the game, or even point out whether you're a newbie or not.  But the helpfiles -are- helpful enough in choosing them.  Even moreso than the main guilds, really.  You want to point out it says 'they make their own weapons' instead of 'they make this kind of weapon'?  Sure, it could be more specific, but it doesn't -destroy- a character, either.  As I said, learn it, and move on.  It's close enough that it should still fit the character, if chosen as...

And you adapt to fit a guild, Subguilds on the other hand...well, they are just that, subguilds, Something you pick to augment a PC because hopefully you know the skills they get.

...an augmentation, rather than something that the character is utterly dependent upon.  The subguilds have these nifty names.  Even without knowing what skills each and every one gets, to -augment- a pc with a subguild requires little more than knowing a little more about the character.  Oh, yes, they wander a lot, and I had my character raised in the desert.  Nomad would be perfect!  Hey, my character is this guild, but I could have him with experience hunting when he was younger!  Hunter!

Regardless of whether you get the -exact- skill you want, that subguild -should- still fit, because that subguild is based around exactly that.  The augmentation.  So, when I say adapt, I mean to say that you -chose- that augmentation based off of the sound of it in character creation.  You shouldn't get in game, decide it doesn't fit anymore because it didn't have the skill you were looking for, and start asking for more time on staff's part so you can fix it.  Just stick with the same concept, and adapt to not having that skill, using the other ones -that still pertain to that subguild that you chose-.

Hope that's helpful.

[janeshephard]

I still don't know all the subguilds, either.  Fortunately, it doesn't make or break the game, or even point out whether you're a newbie or not.  But the helpfiles -are- helpful enough in choosing them.  Even moreso than the main guilds, really.  You want to point out it says 'they make their own weapons' instead of 'they make this kind of weapon'?  Sure, it could be more specific, but it doesn't -destroy- a character, either.  As I said, learn it, and move on.  It's close enough that it should still fit the character, if chosen as...

You shouldn't have to roll every subguild to know what your options are. The chargen should not be an "interesting and fun" mini-game where you hope you get what you picked. Really

[Nyr]

It's really easy to resolve this. Put in a request about a subguild that needs more elaboration.

Arguing on the gdb about it or bitching about it (as the case may be) may be fun but gets nothing done. As I recall from the last time this came up, the people who were the most vocal folk about this issue on the GDB didn't help.
Let's not have a repeat. Had to lock that thread for similar reasons.

[Lizzie]

It was somewhat annoying, but tolerable, when it was possible to change it. Which was - as recent as two days ago. Now, it isn't permitted to change it. So now it's more annoying, and less tolerable. The fix, would be to make subguild descriptions less vague, AND to add subguild references to specific skill help files.

For instance:

help haggle

This skill is automatically used whenever your character enters into a
barter arrangement with a merchant (i.e., when you use the offer command).
With this skill you may be able to lower the prices which any merchant is
willing to accept for his/her goods.

Should have this added:

[The subguilds pottery-making, chandlering, and telephone repair technician all come with haggle.]

[janeshephard]

It's really easy to resolve this. Put in a request about a subguild that needs more elaboration.

Arguing on the gdb about it or bitching about it (as the case may be) may be fun but gets nothing done. As I recall from the last time this came up, the people who were the most vocal folk about this issue on the GDB didn't help.
Let's not have a repeat. Had to lock that thread for similar reasons.

What type of request? Bug/Idea? It's for website only and I was told not to bug things through there.

[MeTekillot]

revising post

[Nyr]

Question requests will work fine.

Please include any subguild that doesn't reveal all of the skills it has within the helpfile for the subguild.

[creepyguy]

If the subguild help files are supposed to, through prose, reveal all skills that they grant, why not just show it in a clear list format?
It's pretty easy to miss something or misinterpret prose writing like this.

Also, if one picks a subguild that grants a skill that they already start with from their primary guild, does this give any starting bonus? If not then perhaps during selection it should give you a warning that the subguild you're about to choose gives you # of redundant skills to help people avoid a "wasted" skill choice.

[BlackMagic0]

No. Creepyguy.

I believe if you pick say...  Bewb Hunter as your guild and Fruit Hunter as your subguild.

And bewb hunter branches Bewb Bows
Though Fruit Hunter starts with Bewb Bows.

I believe you get the HIGHER of the two. Which is almost always your main guild.

So the subguild I believe simply acts as if its already.. branched.. from the main guild.

No bonuses or add ons or anything.

If your main guild starts with it, you simply get the main guild one. Since its always better.
Get no bonuses what so ever.

This is how I believe it is...  And heard of one or two others kicking this around.
So could be wrong, or could not. -shrugs-

Ask X-D he knows code more. LOL

[X-D]

Wait wait...alright, let me get this straight.

Staff, the people who should know what skills and percs each subguild gets, cannot go through the helpfiles and go, Hey, that is misleading or Hey, that is outright missing. And instead, want the people who may or may not know what the subguilds have to have to send in a request so that staff can look it over and decide if it needs a change?

Um, I thought you guys were trying to make things less work not more.

Black is correct...You get the highest cap and highest starting between the two.

[creepyguy]

Wait wait...alright, let me get this straight.

Staff, the people who should know what skills and percs each subguild gets, cannot go through the helpfiles and go, Hey, that is misleading or Hey, that is outright missing. And instead, want the people who may or may not know what the subguilds have to have to send in a request so that staff can look it over and decide if it needs a change?

Um, I thought you guys were trying to make things less work not more.

Black is correct...You get the highest cap and highest starting between the two.

Thats what I had assumed too. And yes, that is pretty ridiculous to ask players to point out what's misleading about things that they can't know about.
Like asking a blind guy to describe the mona lisa by touch.

[Nyr]

Yes, I am asking players for help on this.  It is less work for me to collect data from people who know where a problem is rather than scour through it myself.  I have a lot on my plate, but I'd like to help.

[Agent_137]

No. Creepyguy.

I believe if you pick say...  Bewb Hunter as your guild and Fruit Hunter as your subguild.

And bewb hunter branches Bewb Bows
Though Fruit Hunter starts with Bewb Bows.

I believe you get the HIGHER of the two. Which is almost always your main guild.

So the subguild I believe simply acts as if its already.. branched.. from the main guild.

No bonuses or add ons or anything.

If your main guild starts with it, you simply get the main guild one. Since its always better.
Get no bonuses what so ever.

This is how I believe it is...  And heard of one or two others kicking this around.
So could be wrong, or could not. -shrugs-

Ask X-D he knows code more. LOL

I've made one character since they added in skill levels. I had a lot of overlapping skills. The overlapped skills were all still at the novice level. They were also central skills for the class. Take from that what you will.

[Agent_137]

also, X-D, CReepyguy, don't forget these IMMs are volunteers AND all this data probably isn't stored in a nice tidy SQL database. It's probably buried in code somewhere.

People are generally more willing to help other people who show they want to help themselves instead of just begging for something. This is kinda like that.

[BlackMagic0]

Agent.  You would be proving my point I believe.

That you do not get a bonus for having overlapping skills.

You simply get the higher start and cap one. Main guild skill. If they both have them from start
Or 'free' branch if it branches from main guild somewhere, if the subguild has it. Which still gives you main guild skill.

Unless I misunderstood you?

[X-D]

Actually Agent, and though I could be wrong, with the number of subguild errors I've had over the years, I think subdguild skills are added by hand. In which case thre needs to be a list.

And if not, there still should be a list.

Man, I hate the request tool...but I suppose I'll put together a list of what is missing/missleading and send it in tomorrow.

BLAH