Unofficial subguild discussion thread

[janeshephard]

With the new policy of not changing subguilds after char creation, maybe instead of posting in ask the staff there should be a thread to discuss this. Post your concerns here.

I've never asked for a subguild change. I've always wondered, however, which subguilds can forage for food. I've always found the cryptic responses to guilds as not helpful to the players. I'm not sure why skills and skill trees are such a guarded thing on this mud. I'm not looking for staff accountability on this. My concern specifically is why "forage food" is held as a secret for which guilds/subguilds it works for.

[RogueGunslinger]

That sucks. I've made this mistake before.

[Synthesis]

Subguild Scavenger     (Character)

Scavengers, skilled in surviving the wilds, particularly ruins such as those of Tuluk, are able to find food where others might not. They are quick to find items and have a shrewd eye towards their possible worth. In order to find objects out of reach of others they have learned to find paths that aren't apparent to the casual observer, and go into caves, windows, and holes in the wall which require a short climb.

See Also:
    guilds, subguilds

So secret it's in the help files!

[janeshephard]

Subguild Scavenger     (Character)

Scavengers, skilled in surviving the wilds, particularly ruins such as those of Tuluk, are able to find food where others might not. They are quick to find items and have a shrewd eye towards their possible worth. In order to find objects out of reach of others they have learned to find paths that aren't apparent to the casual observer, and go into caves, windows, and holes in the wall which require a short climb.

See Also:
    guilds, subguilds

So secret it's in the help files!

I'm aware of this but if you look at the forage helpfile it gives a vague response on which guilds can find food via forage.

[jriley]

I've always found the cryptic responses to guilds as not helpful to the players.

+1

[X-D]

Well, Nyr did answer one of my questions at least. Answer, No, we staff have not given this any thought at all.

Anyway. Unlike main guilds, Staff has often said that a subguild is like a hobby.

If that is the case then the skills given SHOULD be clearly listed. Not like they branch or even get that high.

But Cryptic helpfiles were not that bad when you could get things fixed later.

Now you are being told "Make sure you have exactly what you want because you cannot get it changed." Yet there is not a clear listing of skills so there is no way you can be Sure, specialy if your a newer player.

(edit)
I don't feel like posting in ask the staff again.

So again, bringing up a subject from months back when the situation has changed makes no sense.
Even if they have had some oversights fixed, they are still not clear, IE, people will easily make mistakes in interpretation. This should be fixed,

Or, If I cannot have my PC fixed because something I saw made me think something other then it really is then it should be fixed so this CANNOT happen. Why? because I CANNOT get it fixed if it does...get it?

Rebels are skilled in the guerilla arts, including the ability to move silently in the wilderness with a strong sense of direction. They can construct their own weapons, and repair armor

Example that does not give things away. So, Rebels can make weapons, Sweet, I don't need to take weaponscrafter.....makes PC....logs in...Oh...they can only make one style...and it is not one I need...Great, would have been nice to know that before I submitted...Shit, staff will not change my sub for me....w;s;s;s;s;s;s;s;s;s;s;s;s;s;
Your drowning in silt...Beep.

[Armaddict]

I have an idea.

Adapt.  Fix the character.  Fit the subguild.

Jesus christ, I've never had to have my subguild changed.  Ever.  I've chosen subguilds that had little to do with the concept and that I didn't use anything much, they just became an 'interesting nuance' in my character's skillset.  'Oh.  You can work with flowers.  I never would've guessed.'

Don't start to turn this into some giant ordeal because you can't change something -after- creation.  Just learn what that subguild offers, and move on.  There are plenty of others who have done it, and so can you, I believe in you.

[Lizzie]

Another one is subguild tailor - as opposed to subguild clothworker - which doesn't exist, even though the name of the skill is clothworking, and tailor is a whole different helpfile pertaining to the syntax for getting something fixed at an NPC's shop.

It says tailors (which they aren't - clothworkers/seamstresses create the garments that get tailored, after they've been made - and subguild-tailor is not capable of tailoring existing garments)..

anyway. It says they're great at driving shrewd bargains. But, how would they know whether or not they're bargains, if they don't have the value skill? Last I checked, tailors don't get value. So they don't know what something is actually worth. And therefore, are not capable of discerning whether or not they're driving bargains, shrewd or otherwise. If by "driving shrewd bargains" it means they can get things cheaper at NPCs and pay less at shops, then sure. But how would you know, that the 400-sid broadsword you just paid 200 sids for, is even worth the 200 sids you just paid for it, if you don't have the value skill?

[X-D]

Hey, thanks there Armadict...news flash, we are not all you and think about the poor newbs, who cannot learn what the subs are because the help files are unclear, and by the time they do then they are no longer newbs.

And you adapt to fit a guild, Subguilds on the other hand...well, they are just that, subguilds, Something you pick to augment a PC because hopefully you know the skills they get.

[Armaddict]

Alright.  Let me rephrase.

Please be more careful when going through character generation.  We do not have the manpower to be doing things like changing subguilds after a character has entered the game.  As such we will no longer approve requests to change your subguild if you messed it up in character generation or if you got in game and realized that another would make more sense.  What you choose at character generation now sticks.

Sorry for any inconvenience this my bring.

This is a message from one of your volunteer staff, saying that while it's been done, it is either taking too much time, too much effort, or is being done too much to the point that it takes up one of those things, and that they no longer want to do it anymore, so he gave fair warning.  The response was a request for the staff to do something, to spend some time, and to put in some more effort.

news flash, we are not all you and think about the poor newbs, who cannot learn what the subs are because the help files are unclear, and by the time they do then they are no longer newbs.

I still don't know all the subguilds, either.  Fortunately, it doesn't make or break the game, or even point out whether you're a newbie or not.  But the helpfiles -are- helpful enough in choosing them.  Even moreso than the main guilds, really.  You want to point out it says 'they make their own weapons' instead of 'they make this kind of weapon'?  Sure, it could be more specific, but it doesn't -destroy- a character, either.  As I said, learn it, and move on.  It's close enough that it should still fit the character, if chosen as...

And you adapt to fit a guild, Subguilds on the other hand...well, they are just that, subguilds, Something you pick to augment a PC because hopefully you know the skills they get.

...an augmentation, rather than something that the character is utterly dependent upon.  The subguilds have these nifty names.  Even without knowing what skills each and every one gets, to -augment- a pc with a subguild requires little more than knowing a little more about the character.  Oh, yes, they wander a lot, and I had my character raised in the desert.  Nomad would be perfect!  Hey, my character is this guild, but I could have him with experience hunting when he was younger!  Hunter!

Regardless of whether you get the -exact- skill you want, that subguild -should- still fit, because that subguild is based around exactly that.  The augmentation.  So, when I say adapt, I mean to say that you -chose- that augmentation based off of the sound of it in character creation.  You shouldn't get in game, decide it doesn't fit anymore because it didn't have the skill you were looking for, and start asking for more time on staff's part so you can fix it.  Just stick with the same concept, and adapt to not having that skill, using the other ones -that still pertain to that subguild that you chose-.

Hope that's helpful.

[janeshephard]

I still don't know all the subguilds, either.  Fortunately, it doesn't make or break the game, or even point out whether you're a newbie or not.  But the helpfiles -are- helpful enough in choosing them.  Even moreso than the main guilds, really.  You want to point out it says 'they make their own weapons' instead of 'they make this kind of weapon'?  Sure, it could be more specific, but it doesn't -destroy- a character, either.  As I said, learn it, and move on.  It's close enough that it should still fit the character, if chosen as...

You shouldn't have to roll every subguild to know what your options are. The chargen should not be an "interesting and fun" mini-game where you hope you get what you picked. Really

[Nyr]

It's really easy to resolve this. Put in a request about a subguild that needs more elaboration.

Arguing on the gdb about it or bitching about it (as the case may be) may be fun but gets nothing done. As I recall from the last time this came up, the people who were the most vocal folk about this issue on the GDB didn't help.
Let's not have a repeat. Had to lock that thread for similar reasons.

[Lizzie]

It was somewhat annoying, but tolerable, when it was possible to change it. Which was - as recent as two days ago. Now, it isn't permitted to change it. So now it's more annoying, and less tolerable. The fix, would be to make subguild descriptions less vague, AND to add subguild references to specific skill help files.

For instance:

help haggle

This skill is automatically used whenever your character enters into a
barter arrangement with a merchant (i.e., when you use the offer command).
With this skill you may be able to lower the prices which any merchant is
willing to accept for his/her goods.

Should have this added:

[The subguilds pottery-making, chandlering, and telephone repair technician all come with haggle.]

[janeshephard]

It's really easy to resolve this. Put in a request about a subguild that needs more elaboration.

Arguing on the gdb about it or bitching about it (as the case may be) may be fun but gets nothing done. As I recall from the last time this came up, the people who were the most vocal folk about this issue on the GDB didn't help.
Let's not have a repeat. Had to lock that thread for similar reasons.

What type of request? Bug/Idea? It's for website only and I was told not to bug things through there.

[MeTekillot]

revising post

[Nyr]

Question requests will work fine.

Please include any subguild that doesn't reveal all of the skills it has within the helpfile for the subguild.

[creepyguy]

If the subguild help files are supposed to, through prose, reveal all skills that they grant, why not just show it in a clear list format?
It's pretty easy to miss something or misinterpret prose writing like this.

Also, if one picks a subguild that grants a skill that they already start with from their primary guild, does this give any starting bonus? If not then perhaps during selection it should give you a warning that the subguild you're about to choose gives you # of redundant skills to help people avoid a "wasted" skill choice.

[BlackMagic0]

No. Creepyguy.

I believe if you pick say...  Bewb Hunter as your guild and Fruit Hunter as your subguild.

And bewb hunter branches Bewb Bows
Though Fruit Hunter starts with Bewb Bows.

I believe you get the HIGHER of the two. Which is almost always your main guild.

So the subguild I believe simply acts as if its already.. branched.. from the main guild.

No bonuses or add ons or anything.

If your main guild starts with it, you simply get the main guild one. Since its always better.
Get no bonuses what so ever.

This is how I believe it is...  And heard of one or two others kicking this around.
So could be wrong, or could not. -shrugs-

Ask X-D he knows code more. LOL

[X-D]

Wait wait...alright, let me get this straight.

Staff, the people who should know what skills and percs each subguild gets, cannot go through the helpfiles and go, Hey, that is misleading or Hey, that is outright missing. And instead, want the people who may or may not know what the subguilds have to have to send in a request so that staff can look it over and decide if it needs a change?

Um, I thought you guys were trying to make things less work not more.

Black is correct...You get the highest cap and highest starting between the two.

[creepyguy]

Wait wait...alright, let me get this straight.

Staff, the people who should know what skills and percs each subguild gets, cannot go through the helpfiles and go, Hey, that is misleading or Hey, that is outright missing. And instead, want the people who may or may not know what the subguilds have to have to send in a request so that staff can look it over and decide if it needs a change?

Um, I thought you guys were trying to make things less work not more.

Black is correct...You get the highest cap and highest starting between the two.

Thats what I had assumed too. And yes, that is pretty ridiculous to ask players to point out what's misleading about things that they can't know about.
Like asking a blind guy to describe the mona lisa by touch.

[Nyr]

Yes, I am asking players for help on this.  It is less work for me to collect data from people who know where a problem is rather than scour through it myself.  I have a lot on my plate, but I'd like to help.

[Agent_137]

No. Creepyguy.

I believe if you pick say...  Bewb Hunter as your guild and Fruit Hunter as your subguild.

And bewb hunter branches Bewb Bows
Though Fruit Hunter starts with Bewb Bows.

I believe you get the HIGHER of the two. Which is almost always your main guild.

So the subguild I believe simply acts as if its already.. branched.. from the main guild.

No bonuses or add ons or anything.

If your main guild starts with it, you simply get the main guild one. Since its always better.
Get no bonuses what so ever.

This is how I believe it is...  And heard of one or two others kicking this around.
So could be wrong, or could not. -shrugs-

Ask X-D he knows code more. LOL

I've made one character since they added in skill levels. I had a lot of overlapping skills. The overlapped skills were all still at the novice level. They were also central skills for the class. Take from that what you will.

[Agent_137]

also, X-D, CReepyguy, don't forget these IMMs are volunteers AND all this data probably isn't stored in a nice tidy SQL database. It's probably buried in code somewhere.

People are generally more willing to help other people who show they want to help themselves instead of just begging for something. This is kinda like that.

[BlackMagic0]

Agent.  You would be proving my point I believe.

That you do not get a bonus for having overlapping skills.

You simply get the higher start and cap one. Main guild skill. If they both have them from start
Or 'free' branch if it branches from main guild somewhere, if the subguild has it. Which still gives you main guild skill.

Unless I misunderstood you?

[X-D]

Actually Agent, and though I could be wrong, with the number of subguild errors I've had over the years, I think subdguild skills are added by hand. In which case thre needs to be a list.

And if not, there still should be a list.

Man, I hate the request tool...but I suppose I'll put together a list of what is missing/missleading and send it in tomorrow.

BLAH

[Ashes]

<3 you, X-D.

[Semper]

Perhaps post here what changes you are sending in, in general, so there aren't 50 requests regarding subguild seamstress that the staff go through.

[Agent_137]

wasn't disagreeing, blackmagick. Was just putting the facts down.

I actually do agree with you. Because I've heard it said by Imms somewhere that you start at the highest starting level, if main and sub overlap. And for years I assumed that subguild skills had pretty high starting values, like in the apprentice range. I don't think that anymore, I think it may be marginally higher or not higher than the starting level for the main guild. Therefore overlapped skills are wasted skills.

[BlackMagic0]

wasn't disagreeing, blackmagick. Was just putting the facts down.

I actually do agree with you. Because I've heard it said by Imms somewhere that you start at the highest starting level, if main and sub overlap. And for years I assumed that subguild skills had pretty high starting values, like in the apprentice range. I don't think that anymore, I think it may be marginally higher or not higher than the starting level for the main guild. Therefore overlapped skills are wasted skills.

Oh no. Worries. I didn't wanna put words in your mouth though. Soo.. Thanks for the facts!

Also I believe it may depend on the subguild, no? Some may have higher or lower starting levels. I can name a few.... off hand..

[Lizzie]

Yes, I am asking players for help on this.  It is less work for me to collect data from people who know where a problem is rather than scour through it myself.  I have a lot on my plate, but I'd like to help.

Exept Adhira has spoken, and said the Staff has no plans to become more detailed in the subguild help files. So really, players sending in requests for more specific detail ends up being even more of a waste of time, than the occasional player who requests that their subguild be changed due to not realizing that it didn't come with a skill the help file suggested it did.

[Cutthroat]

Yes, I am asking players for help on this.  It is less work for me to collect data from people who know where a problem is rather than scour through it myself.  I have a lot on my plate, but I'd like to help.

Exept Adhira has spoken, and said the Staff has no plans to become more detailed in the subguild help files. So really, players sending in requests for more specific detail ends up being even more of a waste of time, than the occasional player who requests that their subguild be changed due to not realizing that it didn't come with a skill the help file suggested it did.

Right. Except being more detailed =/= correcting errors. Adhira was answering this question:

Is there, NOW, any thought of listing subguild skills in a straight forward manner that is not cryptic so that errors and the need for fixes are gone?

Which, to just go with an obvious example, implies changing this:
Linguists  know the three major humanoid languages: Allundean, Mirukkim, and Sirihish.

Into this:
Linguists get
- Allundean
- Mirukkim
- Sirihish

And listing out the skills of other subguilds in a similar manner.

Adhira said staff would not be interested in that form of clarification. Nyr said that requests would be considered to add to descriptions of subguilds in the manner they're currently written now. I think it's safe to say that still stands.

It's not a waste of time. X-D, please submit what you caught on to so staff can correct anything necessary.

[Nyr]

Yes, that was my interpretation as well.

I have one request for clarifying value/bartering in subguilds. At least one sg doesn't have it mentioned, and another is vague.

[Twilight]

After reading this thread, I am ambivalent on the issue at hand.  Other than the staff really should have more tools on hand.

The fact that staff can't apparently do something like "show skills guild warrior" or "show skills subguild thug" is just completely mind boggling.  I thought that was in the Gamma DIKU codebase, I can't see why anyone would get rid/not expand the functionality if it was as the mud evolved from there.

My experience with a subguild that didn't attach properly, way back, was that skills needed to be added manually anywhere except chargen.  Again, seems weird that the (I assume tiny bit of code, if the skills files for subguilds are in any way organized) tiny bit of code to enable something like 'set pf playerx subguild thug' which would take take away all of playerx's subguild skills after cross referencing to guild skills then add in subguild thug skills wasn't already added.  Hopefully, with Arm2, there will be a more robust coding out of what is possible with imm commands.  While they rarely impact players directly, this current issue seems to be one where it does.

Oh, and it would be really nice if you could change playerfiles directly in Arm2, another issue where code has impacted players (player/imm online at same time to do certain changes).  Pretty sure "set pf" is basic Gamma DIKU as well, although admittedly will not impact descriptions there.

[Nyr]

After reading this thread, I am ambivalent on the issue at hand.  Other than the staff really should have more tools on hand.

The fact that staff can't apparently do something like "show skills guild warrior" or "show skills subguild thug" is just completely mind boggling.  I thought that was in the Gamma DIKU codebase, I can't see why anyone would get rid/not expand the functionality if it was as the mud evolved from there.

My experience with a subguild that didn't attach properly, way back, was that skills needed to be added manually anywhere except chargen.  Again, seems weird that the (I assume tiny bit of code, if the skills files for subguilds are in any way organized) tiny bit of code to enable something like 'set pf playerx subguild thug' which would take take away all of playerx's subguild skills after cross referencing to guild skills then add in subguild thug skills wasn't already added.  Hopefully, with Arm2, there will be a more robust coding out of what is possible with imm commands.  While they rarely impact players directly, this current issue seems to be one where it does.

Oh, and it would be really nice if you could change playerfiles directly in Arm2, another issue where code has impacted players (player/imm online at same time to do certain changes).  Pretty sure "set pf" is basic Gamma DIKU as well, although admittedly will not impact descriptions there.

I'll clarify a few things then.

We can see all of the skills each guild and subguild has.  We can also read the helpfiles and, with time, figure out what doesn't add up.  We (I) do not have the time to do this right now.  In lieu of waiting until I do have time to devote to this, I'm asking for other people who have hands-on experience from the player side with this issue to volunteer their assistance.

Also, subguilds do codedly attach properly; I have not seen evidence of an issue in which the code is working improperly and people are getting the wrong subguild by a bug.  The issue we are seeing is a marked increase in people asking us to change their subguild because they picked the wrong one (did not check app before submission), or because they picked a subguild and decided it didn't have the skills they wanted.

We do not have the resources to keep doing these because it requires an admin+ staffer to be online at the same time as the player in question.  We can change values in pfiles directly, but this requires a coder with ginka access.  At this point, that's a lot of work to correct an issue that can be resolved on the front end:  double check your app before submitting it, and read the helpfiles on subguilds if you aren't sure about your subguild choices.  If the subguild has a skill that is not listed in the helpfile, it should be there, and that's where we (I) are (am) asking for help.

[Barzalene]

I've always felt that apart from the mysteries of magick, I wouldn't feel at all like I was robbed of discovery if information were more accessible. In fact, I think that ease of gathering information that led me to informed choices would enhance my experience. I understand that the staff, and much of the player base does not agree, and I respect that. I'm not so much lobbying for a change and throwing the idea out there.

[Twilight]

Thank you for the reply.

I'll clarify a few things then.

We can see all of the skills each guild and subguild has.  We can also read the helpfiles and, with time, figure out what doesn't add up.  We (I) do not have the time to do this right now.  In lieu of waiting until I do have time to devote to this, I'm asking for other people who have hands-on experience from the player side with this issue to volunteer their assistance.

Admittedly, I made an assumption here, based on how long it would take me to do something similiar on the other Gamma DIKU mud out there, which is what I am familiar with on an admin side.  If it works as I referenced, and you have a skill list instantly, perhaps it would work best to have an inexperienced player send in what their interpretation of the subguild helpfiles are and cross reference?

Also, subguilds do codedly attach properly; I have not seen evidence of an issue in which the code is working improperly and people are getting the wrong subguild by a bug.  The issue we are seeing is a marked increase in people asking us to change their subguild because they picked the wrong one (did not check app before submission), or because they picked a subguild and decided it didn't have the skills they wanted.

Did not realize there was in increase in this, was only referencing my only experience with subguild being reset was back within a year of introduction, when the bard subguild did not sometimes appropriately attach in chargen.

We do not have the resources to keep doing these because it requires an admin+ staffer to be online at the same time as the player in question.  We can change values in pfiles directly, but this requires a coder with ginka access.  At this point, that's a lot of work to correct an issue that can be resolved on the front end:  double check your app before submitting it, and read the helpfiles on subguilds if you aren't sure about your subguild choices.  If the subguild has a skill that is not listed in the helpfile, it should be there, and that's where we (I) are (am) asking for help.

Well, my suggestion here went beyond the current issue.  My experience with a Gamma derivative is that you can directly set values in the pfile as an admin, in game, rather than need a coder for it, but for certain things Arm definately is not this way.  My suggestion was for Arm2 to have the ability for admin to set pfile values directly from the game, so that we can get rid of the necessity of having an admin+ and the player both in the game at the same time (or needing a coder for it).  As this is an issue in the current game that impacts both imms and players.

[Lizzie]

I have an actual, constructive, potentially useful and welcome suggestion regarding all of this. If the players who respond (and any staff who respond) feel it's worthwhile, I'll submit it as a "request tool" question or whatever other hoops through which we're supposed to jump.

You know how they changed the stat change and stat restore. And they changed the autorezz so you can't rezz after you've had 1 karma point.

Well how about implementing something similar with the subguilds.

You pick your guild/subguild, it gets approved, you show up in the hall of kings. WHILE you are in the Hall of Kings, you are prompted to type SKILLS to see all your skills. While you are in the Hall of kings, you can type SUBGUILD and it'll list which of those skills currently on your skills list are your subguild skills (overlapping skills would still show up so if you have merchant/bard, listen would still show up since it's on both).

If you feel you made a mistake, you can change your subguild, ONCE. While you're in the hall of kings. It would force you out of the game, change your pfile, and when you log back in again you're good to go, back in the Hall of Kings with your changed subguild.

And you can do this once, per character, ONLY in the hall of kings, and only until you have accumulated more than 1 point of karma. After that you can't do it anymore because at that point it's assumed that you have a general idea of how to interpret the help files, which may or may not be vague, unclear, and in some cases unintentionally deceptive.

[Old Kank]

Give each character an allowance of "request points," and use them for any number of typical player requests.

Make players choose between changing their sub guild and changing their character's description or the implementation of that master craft item, and I bet a lot of players would decide that not having the value skill actually doesn't destroy their character concept.

[gfair]

Perhaps we can incorporate a quick summary of the Guild / Subguild in the character summary screen to review before we submit the application?

[Majikal]

Perhaps we can incorporate a quick summary of the Guild / Subguild in the character summary screen to review before we submit the application?

If any methods were allowed into the game in which you could review skills of guild and subguild before character approval, I believe it to be ridiculous to not simply allow those skills to be seen during character creations. I can understand keeping guild skills vague and misleading, but subguilds? Knowing that subguild x gives you listen, sleight of hand, value and kickassery hardly breaks the game or causes ANY Issues that I can see. Subguild sniffing? 

Code Select Expand


Choose a Sub Guild for your character:
a) Sissy
b) Badass
>B
You have chosen Badass, this comes with:
Bash
Kick
Disarm
Pwnage

Are you sure this is the Sub Guild you wish for your character, y/n?
>Y


To take it one step further, I think it would be helpful to even show the skill level it allows (apprentice, journeyman etc).

[X-D]

There, I submitted on all the ones that I see problems with.

[The Archbishop]

Why does this thread exsist?

[Lizzie]

Why does this thread exsist?

Summary:

Many of the subguild descriptions in the help files have been vague, or incorrect, or misleading. Since not everyone knows what they're -supposed- to be, and the staff has always said we should discover what we get in game and that it was ok for the help file to be vague, we just mostly lived with it. If we got into the game and discovered it that the subguild was REALLY wrong - as in, the desc implied weaponmaking, and you create a PC who tries to get into Salarr as a weaponsmith but who's really a wanna-be assassin (with rebel subguild), he'd be totally fucked and have to completely re-write his goals. OR, he could e-mail the staff and ask for a subguild change. No big deal, problem solved. If it was a matter of a typo during chargen, they meant to type f but typged g by mistake..was in such a hurry to get their app approved that they didn't double-check to make sure everything was perfect.. not too bad a deal - just e-mail the staff and get it changed within an hour of logging in and realizing you screwed up.

Now, we are no longer allowed to ask for subguild changes once our character has been approved. For the people who simply made a mistake out of inattention, it's an inconvenience, but it's their own doing. But the people who didn't understand, or misinterpreted vague or incorrect or deceptive help files, this is causing a lot of dissention. Why should they have to "suck it up" and play through a mistake that is the result of the staff's inattention to their own help files?

[jhunter]

I've never ended up with an incorrect subguild. I guess this must be a problem for some people since this thread exists but really, I don't see how people are unable to deal with it. It's not character-breaking. So you picked one that you thought gave you access to -all- weaponcrafting skills (when it's a secondary ability anyway) and only ended up being able to make one type? You can't adjust to have your pc almost exactly the same as you envisioned except they specialize in making only a single weapon type? Alright then, I agree that they should be left vague, but I suppose fix some of the parts that may be misleading to some people. Unless they are completely listed out for people, there's always going to be somebody that assumes more than is said and ends up disappointed and complaining.

[janeshephard]

Why does this thread exsist?

There were two questions posted to the Ask The Staff forum so I thought it best to just start a thread. That's why this thread exists.

[Lizzie]

JHunter, I'm looking at this from a new player's perspective. Here are some examples of things that are so vague, that they can very easily mislead a NEW player:

"can get away in a hurry if confronted."

I'm a new player. I just finished reading the racial files, and moving onto subguilds. I know, from my reading, that desert elves can run very fast. I see that in a subguild help file and think - oh I guess that means this subguild can run even faster than a desert elf. Awesome. My character is gonna be a desert elf hunter so this should be perfect!

OOOPS - no it means this subguild comes with the FLEE skill. Which, new player hasn't gotten to yet, so he doesn't even know the flee skill exists, because he had no interest in looking for it, because he's not concerned with learning how to run away after he's already become engaged in combat. Hurry away if confronted does not mean run away from active combat.

There are a few subguilds that have this misleading wording with regards to the flee skill.

Here's another one - a pretty significant one:

Bards:
   Bards are talented with musical ability, and well versed in the use of
various instruments. They can earn a living performing tricks involving
small sleights of hand, or by repeating and embellishing stories they have
overheard.  Their ability to pick up languages will also aid in the
diversity of their story-telling.

New player thinks - WOAH Armageddon has coded musical instrument playing, awesome! And they get special commands to make their stories sound better than the guy at the other end of the bar! I SO WANT THIS.

Woops. There is no such coded ability in Arm, it doesn't exist. And there are no such special commands - the help file is referring to the listen skill, which a new player might, or might not have gotten to yet during his examination of the character generation process. And picking up languages - does that mean he gets a boost to listen? Even I'm not sure what that means, and I've been playing a few years. Does that mean all languages are at the "just about to branch but not on the skills list YET" level, hidding in a character's skillset until they hear the language spoken for the first time? Because, if I like the auxilliary skills that come with bard, but I really need to know mirrukim fairly early on in my character's existence as a PC, then I might be better off picking linguist, even though my character will have absolutely no interest or need to learn quickly, any of the other languages.

But because this file is so vague, if I was a new player, I would have absolutely no idea which to pick, and no general understanding of the game from which to compare. No, I would have to go to a helper, and have the helper spell it out for me OOCly. I'd have to jump through hoops, just to find out if one damned skill that I want my character to have, would be quickly achieved by picking one subguild, because I don't need any of the skills that comes with the other subguild.

So the result of this change, without specifying CLEARLY in the help files, is this:

Players who already know what comes with what, will only have mistakes, if they typoed and weren't paying attention. Otherwise, they will always have exactly what they wanted.

Players who have a general idea, might be disappointed, but sucks to be them, there's nothing they can do about it if it wasn't what they thought it was.

Players who are brand new to the game will be clueless, more likely than not guess wrong, find out they're wrong, find out they're not allowed to change it, get frustrated, and find a game where they can have a more educated idea of what their character is capable of, before showing up in the game and being stuck with arbitrary and incorrect choices.

Among all three groups, there will be a LOT more OOC passing of information. I imagine there will soon be lists of subguilds and their skills (if there aren't already) being sent via e-mail, over IM, and discussed in the chat rooms, just to avoid having to be the moron who actually used the help files exclusively when attempting to figure out what subguild they want their character to have.

[RogueGunslinger]

MY question is: Why should the sub guild or main guild skills be kept vague? What does this add the the game?

[jhunter]

MY question is: Why should the sub guild or main guild skills be kept vague? What does this add the the game?

Personally, I would prefer that our playerbase be made up of people who are willing to read between the lines and think for themselves rather than have it all handed to them. I think that's part of the reason why our playerbase is made up of so many talented roleplayers. I believe it would -contribute- to a decline in the quality of our playerbase.

[RogueGunslinger]

I think you mean incline. But if your only reasoning is to keep players who have the ability to think about what skills might would come with a guild, and weed out the ones who can't. Then sorry, I completely disagree. This is our character. We should know what they're going to be capable of when we make them. And we shouldn't be forcing cruel annoyances like such on new players and players who simply haven't payed attention to what guilds get what skills, in order to make them leave the game so you can have it full of "think for themselfers".



Edit: Whew... that was a confusing mouthful.

[janeshephard]

Personally, I would prefer that our playerbase be made up of people who are willing to read between the lines and think for themselves rather than have it all handed to them. I think that's part of the reason why our playerbase is made up of so many talented roleplayers. I believe it would -contribute- to a decline in the quality of our playerbase.

Yes, clearly by making the game more antisocial you contribute to a better player base.

[Synthesis]

Personally, I would prefer that our playerbase be made up of people who are willing to read between the lines and think for themselves rather than have it all handed to them. I think that's part of the reason why our playerbase is made up of so many talented roleplayers. I believe it would -contribute- to a decline in the quality of our playerbase.

Yes, clearly by making the game more antisocial you contribute to a better player base.

Hey, you need some sociopaths if you're going to run a game with the tagline:  murder, corruption, betrayal.

[janeshephard]

I've seen you bring up that "tag line" more than once. Where did you see it? I'm guessing a player made poster?

[Armaddict]

Staff made, actually.

[Thunkkin]

Frequent staff motto.  For instance, see the closing line of this post:  http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,38480.msg524497.html#msg524497

I don't think keeping the starting skills of mundane guilds and subguilds secret adds anything to the game other than frustration for new players and those who don't keep lists of their skills.

[Lizzie]

Frequent staff motto.  For instance, see the closing line of this post:  http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,38480.msg524497.html#msg524497

I don't think keeping the starting skills of mundane guilds and subguilds secret adds anything to the game other than frustration for new players and those who don't keep lists of their skills.

<insert THIS meme here>

[Armaddict]

Please let me know all magick spells and their recipes as well, please.  And all psionic skills.  And the locations of all the places I think my character should go.  And please maximize my stats.  And please make this game easy, and get rid of the idea of people preying on each other, because that frustrates me.  Please tell me all the secret things Houses do, because that influences what job my character should get.  Please let me know all of the dangerous things different creatures can do, because that influences how I hunt.  Please tell me all the branching trees, because what skills get branched influences what I want to play.  Please make this game not hard, because it's irritating.  Please make water sources well known so that I don't die from thirst, ever.  Please change this stat, because I said in my background that he was strong, and he's not.  Please swap out this skill for me, I don't want that one, I want this one to make my character more effective.  Please reverse the documentation of the templarate, because they're way too mean and inhospitable.  Please make poison more easily curable.  Please release -exact- bonuses for each stat so that I know exactly what stats I want.  Please make helpfiles tell how filling this food is versus this food so that I don't waste money on things less filling.  Please be more clear in the effects of choosing each race, I need to know if my dwarf warrior or half-elf warrior has more damage potential.  Please increase maximum skill levels for each class to be more equal in everything.  Please give me more crafting skills, and make it so I can buy the materials for everything in shops and readily know what is needed for everything.  Please make it so that new skills are higher so I start off more easily survivable.  Please make players stop being mean to me, it scares me away, and more importantly, scares away newbies (cop out because I actually just don't like it but I've been around awhile.)  Please....please...make this....make this...tell me...tell me...


Please.  Make this game easy.  Please make it so I don't have to play it at all to know everything about it.  Please change the entire mood of the game, and dismantle a recipe that has made the more hardcore role-playing game of all time.  All of that makes it just so damn -hard-.

[janeshephard]

Please let me know all magick spells and their recipes as well, please...

Nobody asked for this, and this post was not necessary. If this was an attempt to contribute to this thread I think you can do better. Nyr offered to clarify some help files and people sent in requests. That's all that happened.

[jhunter]

Personally, I would prefer that our playerbase be made up of people who are willing to read between the lines and think for themselves rather than have it all handed to them. I think that's part of the reason why our playerbase is made up of so many talented roleplayers. I believe it would -contribute- to a decline in the quality of our playerbase.

Yes, clearly by making the game more antisocial you contribute to a better player base.

I don't see what having more information about the skills/coded workings of the game has to do with how social it is.

[jhunter]

Frequent staff motto.  For instance, see the closing line of this post:  http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,38480.msg524497.html#msg524497

I don't think keeping the starting skills of mundane guilds and subguilds secret adds anything to the game other than frustration for new players and those who don't keep lists of their skills.

<insert THIS meme here>

People have actually had to do this??!! When you all keep stressing the point of "new" players, you are forgetting that all of us were once new players and went through the learning curve as well. Some of us, looking back, still don't believe it was too difficult. But anyway, like I said, I can see how maybe a few minor tweaks are in order. I just don't think we should contribute to people being mentally lazy just to have more "numbers" in the playerbase. There is a point that we would be giving away too much, too easily.

[Qzzrbl]

Personally, I would prefer that our playerbase be made up of people who are willing to read between the lines and think for themselves rather than have it all handed to them. I think that's part of the reason why our playerbase is made up of so many talented roleplayers. I believe it would -contribute- to a decline in the quality of our playerbase.

Yes, clearly by making the game more antisocial you contribute to a better player base.

I don't see what having more information about the skills/coded workings of the game has to do with how social it is.

I honestly don't care about the change either way.... It doesn't affect me a single bit.

Don't worry about the quality of the playerbase-- us vets'll keep those newbs in line, amirite?

[Armaddict]

I just don't think we should contribute to people being mentally lazy just to have more "numbers" in the playerbase.

I don't even see how that would add more to the playerbase.  It really just leads to more people joining up and immediately trying to figure out how to make the most badass character without having to go through the stages of 'getting' the point of the game.  Which has nothing to do with minmaxing, it has to do with playing a character in an environment.

More information on subguilds doesn't make the game more newbie friendly.  They will be preyed on just as easily, not due to being targeted, but due to not having that grasp of just how inhospitable the game itself is.  While giving the clear-cut skill list doesn't ruin the game, it -does- start an expectation among new players who haven't slipped into comfort yet for -more- straightforward information.

[Lizzie]

Frequent staff motto.  For instance, see the closing line of this post:  http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,38480.msg524497.html#msg524497

I don't think keeping the starting skills of mundane guilds and subguilds secret adds anything to the game other than frustration for new players and those who don't keep lists of their skills.

<insert THIS meme here>

People have actually had to do this??!! When you all keep stressing the point of "new" players, you are forgetting that all of us were once new players and went through the learning curve as well. Some of us, looking back, still don't believe it was too difficult. But anyway, like I said, I can see how maybe a few minor tweaks are in order. I just don't think we should contribute to people being mentally lazy just to have more "numbers" in the playerbase. There is a point that we would be giving away too much, too easily.

It was enough of a problem then, that the staff has changed their policy and stated this week, that people are no longer allowed to ask for a subguild change. If it wasn't a problem, previously, then the staff wouldn've have had to change their policy. Now, however, part of the problem (the part where people didn't merely typo, but actually didn't realize that what they selected didn't have the skills they were led to believe they came with), is no longer -allowed- to be addressed. Previously, it was. This policy change forbids it.

[Jingo]

Seriously.

What's the problem with this?

[Qzzrbl]

Seriously.

What's the problem with this?

Some people are clearly concerned with players down the road asking for more and more information, like later on someone saying, "Well hey, you listed all the skills for subguilds, why not for main guilds too?" and so on.

Though I'm pretty sure the Staff will be quick to draw the line if it gets too bad.

[Armaddict]

Though I'm pretty sure the Staff will be quick to draw the line if it gets too bad.

Pretty sure that's what's already been done and people are arguing with it.

[Qzzrbl]

Though I'm pretty sure the Staff will be quick to draw the line if it gets too bad.

Pretty sure that's what's already been done and people are arguing with it.

Well.... Y'know, what skills come with subguilds, we can all agree that having that clearly listed is pretty harmless, right?

Even so, judging from Staff's responses, I really don't think they'll be throwing lists of subguild skills up on the helpfiles anytime soon.

[Armaddict]

Fairly harmless, yes.  But that's just because I think they're pretty well listed out right now.  There's one or two that are vague in the sense of which particular skill is had, but in reading the title of the subguild and it's purpose as an augmentation of the character, you can guess what their purpose is, which still makes the subguild completely functional, particularly when reinforced with that 'vague' explanation.

What I'm more worried about is this expectation of complete clarity, which actually kind of undermines the game mood altogether.  Did I want more information when I was new to the game?  Hell yes.  Am I glad I never got it now that I've played so long?  Hell yes.  Because things still aren't crystal clear, and I still don't understand them completely, and the game continues to draw on me as similar to life:  I never actually 'win' the game.  It just goes on.

Asking for more information, more clarity, and more catering to you just because things didn't end up exactly how you planned actually, in the long run, can screw you out of the some of the more beautiful parts of this game.  I swear it.

[Nyr]

Thanks to the folks that contributed.  We'll look over the suggestions in the coming week and implement changes as necessary; we'll let you know once they're done.

Stuff submitted so far:

thug subguild helpfile suggestion -- skill not mentioned
forage helpfile suggestion -- which guilds/sg's can forage for food
acrobat helpfile suggestion -- adept with hands and feet in combat (clarification)
nomad helpfile suggestion -- skill not mentioned
rebel helpfile suggestion -- skill mentioned, not clarified

And yeah, we've drawn the line in the same spot (a couple of times) since January of this year.  I don't think anyone's going to step up to the plate and argue this from staff-side when it's been done already.  If anyone would like to save some time, you can quote yourself (or others) from that thread.

[Lizzie]

Nyr, what people are trying to say - not even trying. Successfully stating..

is that in January, you didn't have a policy forbidding people from switching subguilds if they didn't understand what came with them, when they picked them, and only discovered this after showing up i nthe game.

in January, you ALLOWED people to submit a request for a subuild change. In fact..
up until last week, you ALLOWED - and I mean you specifically since you're one of the staffers who posted - people to submit subguild change requests.

Now, we're not allowed to do that. We're not allowed to correct a mistake, that we were allowed to correct in January.

You have further restricted new players' ability to comprehend what they are doing, by not allowing them the opportunity to make a change, that up until this past week, they were allowed to make, after discovering that they screwed up.

Veterans don't need much hand-holding, because veterans already know what comes with this or that subguild. Being vague with regards to subguilds doesn't add anything to the game. It doesn't make roleplaying easier, it doesn't make the world come more alive, it doesn't thrust me deeper into immersion. All it does, is frustrated new players who don't know what more seasoned players not only know, but were allowed to correct, prior to this past week.

[Nyr]

Just so we're clear, you can submit a request if you feel a helpfile for a guild or subguild doesn't give the information it should about starting skills.

This is pretty much how I feel about this, as well:

A sentence such as, "Ranger skills involve hunting persons or animals, exceptional powers of observation, a strong aptitude for archery, and some moderate skill with weapons." conveys the factual information wrapped in language that keeps it role-oriented.

Replacing the sentence with, "Rangers skills involve rope-jumping, juggling, hobbit guarding, and broken_sword_fighting." strips it down to the factual information only and, for me, detracts from the efforts we make elsewhere in the game to maintain an atmosphere of role-playing and not skill-mongering.

If anything gets added, it'll probably get added as displayed in the first example, not as displayed in the second example.

[Majikal]

Veterans don't need much hand-holding, because veterans already know what comes with this or that subguild. Being vague with regards to subguilds doesn't add anything to the game. It doesn't make roleplaying easier, it doesn't make the world come more alive, it doesn't thrust me deeper into immersion. All it does, is frustrated new players who don't know what more seasoned players not only know, but were allowed to correct, prior to this past week.

Well put.

[Synthesis]

I dunno, I've had a few memorable, "Oh shiiii--I didn't know they could do that" moments.

The argument is pretty much the relative value of those newbie "oh shiii--" moments vs. the frustration of playing the "decode the secret message in the helpfile" skill-guessing game.

I don't really care one way or the other.

[Lizzie]

I dunno, I've had a few memorable, "Oh shiiii--I didn't know they could do that" moments.

The argument is pretty much the relative value of those newbie "oh shiii--" moments vs. the frustration of playing the "decode the secret message in the helpfile" skill-guessing game.

I don't really care one way or the other.

I had one of those moments, a couple of times. Both times, when I found out, I was royally pissed off. Because, if I had known about these things for two other, of my 15 characters, I would've picked those subguilds instead of the "pick one because none of them really fit what I want to do with this PC anyway" subguilds.

[roughneck]

I go through characters like extras on star trek.  Discovering different subguild lists is one of the perks.

I know you're all pretty jealous.

[Rotten]

I don't know about the rest of you, but this blew my mind.

It's a tangent to this project, but while we have someone modifying the help files, could we get a mention that those two commands work under the same skill?

[mansa]

I don't know about the rest of you, but this blew my mind.

It's a tangent to this project, but while we have someone modifying the help files, could we get a mention that those two commands work under the same skill?

I think I've been saying that all along. 

[Incognito]

How do some ppl on this thread know so much about game mechanics - especially about what caps and starting levels of skills one gets - in respect with one's guild and sub-guild?

Is this something one can find out in-game?

I ask because I am unable to figure out the logic with which a player might be able to unearth this information.

(In other words, this isnt a bitch post - if there's some way we're able to actually figure out this info, with our PC's, in game, could someone please post a guide...)

Modified to add:
Of course, if a Staff member would like to put in a brief explanation on skills from main guild, skills from sub-guilds, how they overlap, and what is the starting level and max cap, that would be most appreciated and highly desirable!

[hyzhenhok]

How do some ppl on this thread know so much about game mechanics - especially about what caps and starting levels of skills one gets - in respect with one's guild and sub-guild?

Is this something one can find out in-game?

I ask because I am unable to figure out the logic with which a player might be able to unearth this information.

(In other words, this isnt a bitch post - if there's some way we're able to actually figure out this info, with our PC's, in game, could someone please post a guide...)

Modified to add:
Of course, if a Staff member would like to put in a brief explanation on skills from main guild, skills from sub-guilds, how they overlap, and what is the starting level and max cap, that would be most appreciated and highly desirable!

These days it's much easier to figure out for yourself due to the direct skill level descriptors that are absolute on the scale. Example, subguild_prostitute can only get skill_mudsexx0rz to Journeyman, while subguild_skimmer_captain can get it to Advanced, while only guild_noble can get it to Master. With a (very long period) of trial and experience, you should be able to figure out on your own. Eventually your character will stop advancing in a skill.

In the past, you could still figure out when you stopped advancing, if you were paying attention or otherwise testing for this. Someone with a lot of experience would notice that guild X stopped advancing in skill A before guild Y did.

But yeah, before the skills descriptors, most of us learned this from posts from other players that were confirmed (either directly or tangentially) by the staff.

[spawnloser]

Unfortunately, not all things people still believe about how the code works have been confirmed but are still believed anyway.