Should PCs be able to start as 'experienced'?

[Akaramu]

Starting at age 50 or 60 would be less of a bother to mages than combat based classes. In a way, that makes it unfair.

[Qzzrbl]

Starting at age 50 or 60 would be less of a bother to mages than combat based classes. In a way, that makes it unfair.

When don't mundanes get the short end of the stick?

[Sephiroto]

Starting at age 50 or 60 would be less of a bother to mages than combat based classes. In a way, that makes it unfair.

I thought the whole idea of skill boosts was aimed at mundane classes only........  Every time I've discussed it, that is what I had in mind.  Mages bulk up so fast I wouldn't feel very comfortable having them start with extra skills in the current Arm incarnation.

[spawnloser]

Starting at age 50 or 60 would be less of a bother to mages than combat based classes. In a way, that makes it unfair.

Except for the fact that they're taking a nice hit to endurance meaning that they're even easier to kill by some newbie combat-class in even fewer shots.

When don't mundanes get the short end of the stick?

When they stop bitching about how unfair it is, maybe?  (sigh)  Honestly, the magicker-hate on these boards is depressing.

[Akaramu]

None of my mages has ever even been hit even once by some newbie combat class. Except the 5 day one who cast 3 spells all her life and ended up in jail, but that was different. And I don't hate mages, I just don't think they should be able to start out as older / more experienced.

Mundanes, by all means, why not.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Starting at age 50 or 60 would be less of a bother to mages than combat based classes. In a way, that makes it unfair.

I thought the whole idea of skill boosts was aimed at mundane classes only........  Every time I've discussed it, that is what I had in mind.  Mages bulk up so fast I wouldn't feel very comfortable having them start with extra skills in the current Arm incarnation.

I must be doing it wrong: My mages tend to advance at the same speed as my merchants.

My rangers, however, take ages to advance.

However, I've got to disagree on the point that mundanes get the short end of the stick on everything. They're actually superior to mages in a lot of things, albeit, most of them don't involve skill vs skill, but instead involve things like social power, ability to get work, and the like.

[Salt Merchant]

My impression is that mages have been getting beaten with the nerf bat to some extent over the past couple of years anyhow.

[X-D]

the Impression is FROM the nerf bat.

[hyzhenhok]

Definitely no to a karma-based bonus system.

Karma restrictions on class and race are feasible not only because of their coded power, but also because their roleplaying difficulty. You can look a newb in the face and tell him with confidence "we don't trust you to play a sorcerer, but we trust that other player."

Can you really do the same with "we don't trust you to start with a character that doesn't utterly suck right out of the box, but we do trust this other player"? No, I don't think you can. You've turned karma from a trust system to a perks system, and frankly at that point you're a step away from the "free" pay-for-perks MUDs that we all despise.

[Qzzrbl]

Starting at age 50 or 60 would be less of a bother to mages than combat based classes. In a way, that makes it unfair.

Except for the fact that they're taking a nice hit to endurance meaning that they're even easier to kill by some newbie combat-class in even fewer shots.

When don't mundanes get the short end of the stick?

When they stop bitching about how unfair it is, maybe?  (sigh)  Honestly, the magicker-hate on these boards is depressing.

I wasn't hating on magickers. :p

[number13]

Definitely no to a karma-based bonus system.

Karma restrictions on class and race are feasible not only because of their coded power, but also because their roleplaying difficulty. You can look a newb in the face and tell him with confidence "we don't trust you to play a sorcerer, but we trust that other player."

Can you really do the same with "we don't trust you to start with a character that doesn't utterly suck right out of the box, but we do trust this other player"? No, I don't think you can. You've turned karma from a trust system to a perks system, and frankly at that point you're a step away from the "free" pay-for-perks MUDs that we all despise.

I don't think any character should suck out of the box. But, we can (in theory) trust players with high karma not to use experienced characters to zerg other PCs.

[hyzhenhok]

Definitely no to a karma-based bonus system.

Karma restrictions on class and race are feasible not only because of their coded power, but also because their roleplaying difficulty. You can look a newb in the face and tell him with confidence "we don't trust you to play a sorcerer, but we trust that other player."

Can you really do the same with "we don't trust you to start with a character that doesn't utterly suck right out of the box, but we do trust this other player"? No, I don't think you can. You've turned karma from a trust system to a perks system, and frankly at that point you're a step away from the "free" pay-for-perks MUDs that we all despise.

I don't think any charater should suck out of the box. But, we can (in theory) trust players with high karma not to use experienced characters to zerg other PCs.

Having boosted starting skills isn't really something that can be abused. Do it across the board or not at all.

I do think that we could stand to give starting characters slightly more competence than they currently have. Maybe pick a few key skills in each guild, and give a small but notable boost for every new character of that guild. Rangers already have this. Why not make it common to all (mundane) guilds?

[Qzzrbl]

Wait, since when did rangers get a boost for being newbies? o-O

[Synthesis]

Wait, since when did rangers get a boost for being newbies? o-O

They don't.  They start with at least 2 skills much higher than everyone else.  Which two you can easily guess if you've ever played a ranger and paid attention.

[Qzzrbl]

Wait, since when did rangers get a boost for being newbies? o-O

They don't.  They start with at least 2 skills much higher than everyone else.  Which two you can easily guess if you've ever played a ranger and paid attention.

Oh.... Misunderstood. x]

*Has never played a fully-committed ranger that didn't get killed in under <insert shamefully short period of time here>*

[RogueGunslinger]

Definitely no to a karma-based bonus system.

Karma restrictions on class and race are feasible not only because of their coded power, but also because their roleplaying difficulty. You can look a newb in the face and tell him with confidence "we don't trust you to play a sorcerer, but we trust that other player."

Can you really do the same with "we don't trust you to start with a character that doesn't utterly suck right out of the box, but we do trust this other player"? No, I don't think you can. You've turned karma from a trust system to a perks system, and frankly at that point you're a step away from the "free" pay-for-perks MUDs that we all despise.

I don't think any character should suck out of the box. But, we can (in theory) trust players with high karma not to use experienced characters to zerg other PCs.

"sucking" is almost completely subjective to the other players skills around you.

[A Dry, Quiet War]

Having boosted starting skills isn't really something that can be abused. Do it across the board or not at all.

This is not true.

A 10-day dwarf warrior can walk into any tavern (that doesn't have NPC soldiers) and kill a sitting, unarmed PC in a couple rounds.  Will the player get spanked?  Probably.  Will his victim get resurrected?  No.

I don't want someone to have that kind of power until he's actually invested 240 hours in the game.  He doesn't have to invest it over and over and over...but please, no instant pwn0rz for n00bz.

[A Dry, Quiet War]

I don't think any character should suck out of the box. But, we can (in theory) trust players with high karma not to use experienced characters to zerg other PCs.

"sucking" is almost completely subjective to the other players skills around you.

Not entirely.  Sometime's it's not offense vs. defense, it's just offense vs. hitpoints.  If everyone's combat skills were doubled, we would see even more terrifyingly brief takedowns.

[Nile]

Yes, but only on the basis of karma level. Karma represents a player's trust to roleplay properly and with realism. Those players are trusted to follow the rules and guidlines of the game and trusted not to abuse the code. This is the only way that I feel it is acceptable.

Only read the first few posts but felt I should respond to this.

Please, NO. While karma is a good idea, I'm sure there are plenty of people in my boat. I play quite a lot, adhere strictly to rules, solo RP like crazy etc etc BUT, I still only have 1 karma. I put this down purely to my off-peak playing time. That and I bet the staff always watch when I'm just trying to run somewhere to quit out.

I just feel the karma system is unfair as it is. I've been playing this game for years and have been told many times by different players that I should have more karma. I would feel personally cheated if people were allowed to come IG with higher starting abilities just because the staff watch them more than they watch me.

[Akaramu]

Please, NO. While karma is a good idea, I'm sure there are plenty of people in my boat. I play quite a lot, adhere strictly to rules, solo RP like crazy etc etc BUT, I still only have 1 karma. I put this down purely to my off-peak playing time. That and I bet the staff always watch when I'm just trying to run somewhere to quit out.

I just feel the karma system is unfair as it is. I've been playing this game for years and have been told many times by different players that I should have more karma. I would feel personally cheated if people were allowed to come IG with higher starting abilities just because the staff watch them more than they watch me.

Sorry about the derail, but I feel I have to chime in here. I am also an off-peak player, and I went 2 years without karma, until a rather puzzled Highlord gave me some and told me I should have had that much long ago. It IS possible to slip through the cracks... I would suggest you submit a request to have your karma reviewed.

[Old Kank]

Please, NO. While karma is a good idea, I'm sure there are plenty of people in my boat. I play quite a lot, adhere strictly to rules, solo RP like crazy etc etc BUT, I still only have 1 karma. I put this down purely to my off-peak playing time. That and I bet the staff always watch when I'm just trying to run somewhere to quit out.

I just feel the karma system is unfair as it is. I've been playing this game for years and have been told many times by different players that I should have more karma. I would feel personally cheated if people were allowed to come IG with higher starting abilities just because the staff watch them more than they watch me.

Sorry about the derail, but I feel I have to chime in here. I am also an off-peak player, and I went 2 years without karma, until a rather puzzled Highlord gave me some and told me I should have had that much long ago. It IS possible to slip through the cracks... I would suggest you submit a request to have your karma reviewed.

Do this.

Also, turn your review flag on.  Join a clan and communicate regularly with your clan staff, or failing that, communicate with the independent staff.  Involve other players as much as possible, whenever possible.

And a reminder to other players:  If you see someone do something awesome, don't track them down OOC to give them a high-five.  Send them a kudos so the staff gets to read how awesome that player is too.

OK

[jhunter]

As the others have said. You might slip through the cracks but it doesn't mean that if you deserve it and request a review of your play in regards to karma that the staff won't check you out and award you/or not fairly. I think the whole arguement about karma basis being unfair is flat out bullshit. If you deserve it, and communicate to the staff, you will get it. I don't know of anyone that has the karma and doesn't deserve it. If they show themselves not to deserve it after the fact, it gets taken away.

The arguements against it being karma based almost feel more to me like ignorance or flat out jealously. It's pretty ridiculous. The staff award karma based on trust and roleplaying ability, to argue that it is unfair is, IMO, insulting to both the staff and the fellow players that have proven themselves and earned their karma.

[Twilight]

I was thinking back to a time, about 12 years ago, when there were very few skilled PCs around.  At all.  The Byn wasn't open.  Merchants didn't have craft skills, if I remember right.  And there was this perception that if you worked skills...at all...you would likely be viewed as a twink.

Consequently, most people seemed to suck, skillwise.   Sure there were a few notables (I remember one Kuraci that had a reputation...a few others). And there was hardly anyone on.  But the RP was fun.

So, perhaps we are going in the wrong direction with this entire thread.  The MUD was kind of more interesting, when there were very few PCs that were actually quite skilled, and many, many more (even long, long lived) PCs that were not.  At least, that was my perception of that time period.

[hyzhenhok]

The arguements against it being karma based almost feel more to me like ignorance or flat out jealously. It's pretty ridiculous. The staff award karma based on trust and roleplaying ability, to argue that it is unfair is, IMO, insulting to both the staff and the fellow players that have proven themselves and earned their karma.

What's insulting is your misrepresentation of the karma system, and your misplaced accusations of karma envy.

The karma restricts roles that have heavy roleplaying baggage attached. It's not just about coded power. A karma-based skill boost would have no such roleplaying baggage. There is no reasonable example why someone with karma should get to skip the early skill building phase while one without has to play it out, besides a misplaced sense of entitlement (which I suspect exists, especially given your wording).

The example of a 10-day dwarf is extreme and rediculous. Brand new players can already do a lot of things to screw with the game, and I'm not convinced at all that giving a slight boost to starting characters would be something so potentially game breaking that it would have to be regulated by karma.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Eh, Twilight - that had to be more than 12 years ago.