Should PCs be able to start as 'experienced'?

[spawnloser]

I think the time Twilight's thinking of is more recent than that, actually, because of the mention of a particular Kuraci Merchant (that seemed to have eventually branched every freaking craft skill available to merchant guild characters).  It was a perception thing, she said, that caused people not to train much, not that the skills weren't available or whatever.

[Kryos]

The numbers seem obvious, getting rid of "I like voting in polls" as extraneous, you end up with a heavy lean towards no change or no possible gain ever.

[A Dry, Quiet War]

The karma restricts roles that have heavy roleplaying baggage attached. It's not just about coded power. A karma-based skill boost would have no such roleplaying baggage. There is no reasonable example why someone with karma should get to skip the early skill building phase while one without has to play it out, besides a misplaced sense of entitlement (which I suspect exists, especially given your wording).

The example of a 10-day dwarf is extreme and rediculous. Brand new players can already do a lot of things to screw with the game, and I'm not convinced at all that giving a slight boost to starting characters would be something so potentially game breaking that it would have to be regulated by karma.

All the fun exciting rancor aside, I suspect that we're not thinking about the same level of skillboost.

Option I:  If you want to be able to ride, skin, successfully fry a kalan fruit, and have time to flee before that large black beetle bites your head off, I'm okay with that being unrestricted.  For someone who is new to the game or plays short-lived characters, that's a useful trade for a subguild.  In fact, I'd encourage newbies to go for this option if it were available.

Option II:  If you want to stay mounted in combat, hurt people with arrows, and kill a scrab without getting touched...that's more power than I'm willing to give someone on his first character.  That's about the level a ten-day ranger should be at if he isn't X-D.  That's also about the earliest point that I'd be interested in jumping to.  If you're going to play a character for many hundreds of hours, skipping the first couple days (Option I) just isn't that big a deal.

[jhunter]

The arguements against it being karma based almost feel more to me like ignorance or flat out jealously. It's pretty ridiculous. The staff award karma based on trust and roleplaying ability, to argue that it is unfair is, IMO, insulting to both the staff and the fellow players that have proven themselves and earned their karma.

What's insulting is your misrepresentation of the karma system, and your misplaced accusations of karma envy.

The karma restricts roles that have heavy roleplaying baggage attached. It's not just about coded power. A karma-based skill boost would have no such roleplaying baggage. There is no reasonable example why someone with karma should get to skip the early skill building phase while one without has to play it out, besides a misplaced sense of entitlement (which I suspect exists, especially given your wording).

The example of a 10-day dwarf is extreme and rediculous. Brand new players can already do a lot of things to screw with the game, and I'm not convinced at all that giving a slight boost to starting characters would be something so potentially game breaking that it would have to be regulated by karma.

Did you even read my whole post? I don't think that I misrepesented anything. I don't believe that I pointed out any specific people in regards to my opinion so therefore I cannot be misplaced in that regard. What I was saying is that -some- of the people arguing against it being karma based sound to me as if they don't believe those with karma have earned it or that the staff awards karma to people unfairly. I don't believe I ever said it was just about coded power. (Reread my post above thank you.)

There is no reasonable example why someone with karma should get to skip the early skill building phase while one without has to play it out, besides a misplaced sense of entitlement (which I suspect exists, especially given your wording).

The karma system isn't solely based on RP baggage either, it is based in part on coded power and the responsibility of the player not to abuse it. In this way you are misrepresenting the karma system. There is the reasonable example, as I have already stated, karma players are trusted to some degree or another -not only- to deal with the role difficulty but not to abuse the coded power that comes with some of them.

The bolded portion right there is part of the attitude I'm seeing with the people that comes across as: "I don't think karma players deserved their karma and cannot be trusted any more than players that have not proven themselves."

[Spoon]

The problem with it being karma based is that it would be highly unlikely for anyone with the sufficient karma to create a normal PC. I don't think anyone's being jealous or having karma envy, jhunter, I think they are afraid of creating an elite. That's one of the problems with pretty much every other mud out there. Arm's current karma system is good beacuse of the responsibilities and restrictions drawn from the docs when playing those roles. It's less of a reward and more of a safety mechanism in my eyes.

[mansa]

I was thinking back to a time, about 12 years ago, when there were very few skilled PCs around.  At all.  The Byn wasn't open.  Merchants didn't have craft skills, if I remember right.  And there was this perception that if you worked skills...at all...you would likely be viewed as a twink.

Consequently, most people seemed to suck, skillwise.   Sure there were a few notables (I remember one Kuraci that had a reputation...a few others). And there was hardly anyone on.  But the RP was fun.

So, perhaps we are going in the wrong direction with this entire thread.  The MUD was kind of more interesting, when there were very few PCs that were actually quite skilled, and many, many more (even long, long lived) PCs that were not.  At least, that was my perception of that time period.

I'm of the same frame of mind, where I'd rather see the skill progression slowed down even more than what it is now.

[Sephiroto]

I was thinking back to a time, about 12 years ago, when there were very few skilled PCs around.  At all.  The Byn wasn't open.  Merchants didn't have craft skills, if I remember right.  And there was this perception that if you worked skills...at all...you would likely be viewed as a twink.

Consequently, most people seemed to suck, skillwise.   Sure there were a few notables (I remember one Kuraci that had a reputation...a few others). And there was hardly anyone on.  But the RP was fun.

So, perhaps we are going in the wrong direction with this entire thread.  The MUD was kind of more interesting, when there were very few PCs that were actually quite skilled, and many, many more (even long, long lived) PCs that were not.  At least, that was my perception of that time period.

I'm of the same frame of mind, where I'd rather see the skill progression slowed down even more than what it is now.

And if that happens, I forsee a handful of nameless jakhals exploiting a vastly skill-less playerbase who is unable to defend itself.  And it is because of this perception that I gind: so that I won't feel like I'll be insta-pwned by the first turd furgeson who doesn't like my PC.  If I started skilled and relatively safe then I could simply spend that time RP'ing.  That is why I'm of the frame of mind that I would like to start with more skills.

But, as you can see, we're really advocating the same thing: removing or decreasing the skill gap.  By suggesting skills progress slower to make us more or less on the same level (to promote RP) you're basically putting us at the same place as having trustworthy (karma) newb PC's starting with more skills to better match higher skilled, less-trustworthy (no/low karma) players for the same RP promoting reason.

[jmordetsky]

I was thinking back to a time, about 12 years ago, when there were very few skilled PCs around.  At all.  The Byn wasn't open.  Merchants didn't have craft skills, if I remember right.  And there was this perception that if you worked skills...at all...you would likely be viewed as a twink.

Consequently, most people seemed to suck, skillwise.   Sure there were a few notables (I remember one Kuraci that had a reputation...a few others). And there was hardly anyone on.  But the RP was fun.

So, perhaps we are going in the wrong direction with this entire thread.  The MUD was kind of more interesting, when there were very few PCs that were actually quite skilled, and many, many more (even long, long lived) PCs that were not.  At least, that was my perception of that time period.

I'm of the same frame of mind, where I'd rather see the skill progression slowed down even more than what it is now.

And if that happens, I forsee a handful of nameless jakhals exploiting a vastly skill-less playerbase who is unable to defend itself.  And it is because of this perception that I gind: so that I won't feel like I'll be insta-pwned by the first turd furgeson who doesn't like my PC.  If I started skilled and relatively safe then I could simply spend that time RP'ing.  That is why I'm of the frame of mind that I would like to start with more skills.

I agree with that. But I think the real solution is that skills levels are somehow linked to how long your character has been "in existence" (not time played or age) so that uber douches can grind out maxes in 5 days.

[flurry]

Personally, I'd rather just keep it at special application.

If the problem is that the early days of a character are too tedious, I'd rather see some across the board remedy for that. For instance, we've seen the ride and contact skills change. Those changes helped, I think, and maybe similar changes would be helpful too? I can't think of any at the moment, but I'm suggesting maybe that route would be effective and more achievable.

[5 day lifespan]

Yes, per Karma.

[Ashes]

I honestly don't see how incompetent characters don't fit into plots as well as competent ones.  Many good stories have bumbling, incompetent, unskilled, naive, and inexperienced characters.  It's those characters that really shine in a plot, especially when surrounded by six-packed, chisel-jawed bad-asses.

[Devilb0y]

Just thought I'd chip in with my two cents, for what they're worth:

As it stands I'm currently playing my first character whose been alive for just about 3 days now, and the biggest challenge I face every time I play is getting to grips with how to improve my skills, how to level, how to make myself useful when alone. There are so many things in this game that I don't know how to do yet and the process by which I can learn them is tough but ultimately rewarding because I know that in the grand scheme of things once I've learned them I can use them for future characters. But this seems to be a real bone of contention here: the act of utilising something you have learned in a previous life to the benefit of a current character seems frowned upon because some people labour under the misguided impression that this is twinking. Even though all of us undoubtedly do it.

I refer back to what I said about Magickers in the gemmed thread: that if you start a new Magicker having played one hundred similar characters before, and I start a new one having never played the class before, who do you think is levelling their skills faster? Here's a hint: not me. This idea for a starting skill boost (whether karma or age based) is - while a nice idea for those who want to just jump in and play a badass - a totally uneccessary game mechanic that will ultimately make me feel further from everyone elses level than I already do.

Yes karma is a privelidge that is earned and I have enough faith in the staff to make sure that the people who have access to karma-restricted roles play them properly, so I'm not going to go off on one about this being unfair. It's not unfair. It's just pretty stupid. All that knowledge that you store up in your head over your characters can, if you so choose, be exercised to make each new character slightly better than the last. These players already have the luxury of being able to choose to play a badass because they have the in game knowledge to back it up and the nuance to know how to level their skills quickly. As a new player I have no such luxury; every skill I earn is based on time-consuming trial and error which sets me well behind those of a similar playing time.

No one needs a skill boost from the start. If you've been playing the game for ten years then you already know enough to turn your guy into the King of the Known without needing a little skill boost to help you along. Meanwhile, spare a thought for the newbies who are going to get left in the damned dust. Because mark my words, that will happen.

[Lizzie]

Your example, devilboy, demonstrates clearly why it's a -bad- idea to start with more experience.

You, as a player, don't know enough about the game, the ins and outs of things, to understand the significance of what you want your character to do at any given moment. You, the player, are in a learning phase. We all are, but you as a newcomer in particular, because you're still learning the syntax of -basic- stuff, while others who've been around awhile are learning more complex things.

If your character shows up already knowing Advanced This, Advanced That, and Advanced The Other Thing, how will YOU, the player, know how to use it? I"m not talking about the syntax. I'm talking about the context.

If you have never played a magicker before..and show up with your spells halfway to branching, and have had no opportunity to learn how the magick system works before this character, how will you know how to DEAL with those branched skills, once you get them? You'll be getting them FAST..so you now have 2 RL days to figure it out, instead of the 10 days most other new players have (for example, it's hypothetical, it's not an accourate number). New players NEED time to learn stuff.

Veteran players already know stuff and can react accordingly, because they have spent the time learning all the stuff that you don't know yet.

[jmordetsky]

I agree with that. Sometimes I think (could never happen but..) it would be cool if all new players had to start at < 18 yrs old to indicate they were young an inexperienced. And if you survived to 30, you would be grizzled and hardened, but it would be real game time that made that.

[Malken]

That's why I REALLY like that other RPI's "karma" system.. You have "roles" like these:

Role Title:   Budding Warrior
Point of Contact:   Some Staff
Date Posted:   Tue Jul 20 19:33:07 2006
Karma Point Requirement:   2 karma

Your character is no bumbling novice with a blade; they know their weapons from surviving using them. And so, with a few weapons tucked in to their belt, they have wandered off towards their chosen part of the gameworld, where rumours of work for the unafraid warriors abound in the land they come from. Your character can be of any race, and will start with bonuses to three weapons skills of your choosing (including ranged weapons), slight bonuses to defensive skills and combat styles you pick. Your character will also start with 2 free weapons, or a weapon and shield, of above-average quality.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Role Title:   Budding Crafter
Point of Contact:   Some other Staff
Date Posted:   Tue Jul 11 19:33:22 2006
Karma Point Requirement:   3 karma

Starting anywhere in the gameworld, your character is no skillless peon; they have received at some point in their lives some formal training regarding the production of goods and objects. You will start with no boosts to skills, but two extra crafting skills of your choice and extra coin to help you out.

[Devilb0y]

I like the idea of something along those lines more, Malken.

To refer to what Lizzie and jmor said: I play my first character as inexperienced because I'm inexperienced, and it would be totally incongruous (not to mention immersion-ruining) to me if I could claim to be a master with swords only hours after learning the syntax for fighting. Obviously some 'new' players aren't really that new at all, but this is my first MUD: life is hard and playing an inexperienced rookie is the only way to ensure I learn things. On the other side of this, those who have been playing for years have the benefit of experience when they decide they're going to play some anti-social badass, because they have the knowledge required to make that character a true badass long before I do.

I can understand that when someone has played for ten years they're not too keen on the early grind, but life's hard enough for newbies on Zal without making those with experience codedly better than them.

Another slight aside: the early grind makes players (experienced and new) stay in the Gaj for a while as they find a place for themselves in the world. This can lead to newbies chatting with more experienced gamers and thus learning and having fun. However, if every player of a certain karma level instantly gets experience then they can just head out into the wilds and circumvent the whole newbie-grooming thing.

I know some players will go out of their way to help a newbie, but from personal experience I've found as my character's angle has become more defined I've had a lot less time to chat to others in bars. I imagine this will only become more true as I get older and more advanced. In short, we don't need to speed up this process anymore than we already have, unless we want to run the risk of possessing a stagnating player base.

[WWYD]

Good god, but I hate the SoI RPP system and it's "roles" -- it's one of the things that makes me not want to play there. I don't think a system would integrate well with Armageddon, as SoI -heavily- encourages your character to get clanned (AKA, as a newbie, playing a character that doesn't immediately join one is walking barefoot up a steep mountain, as armor, weapons, and crafting supplies/materials aren't going to drop in your lap, and you just CAN'T afford them with your newbie money).

But anyway, I don't think karma players need any particular advantage over a newbie when making a fresh new character. Just my personal opinion -- I've never felt the need to "grind" up my character.

[RogueGunslinger]

Why do you hate it?

[jmordetsky]

Why do you hate it?

Yea...+1 why? It's pretty much the sponsored role system here. Replace Experienced Warrior with "Byn Sargeant" needed. (I'd hope new Sarges are pumped a bit skill wise - if not doing so might help with fairly awful FNGBMR (F@cking New Guy Bynner Mortality Rate).

[Gunnerblaster]

Yes, but only on the basis of karma level. Karma represents a player's trust to roleplay properly and with realism. Those players are trusted to follow the rules and guidlines of the game and trusted not to abuse the code. This is the only way that I feel it is acceptable.

I vote "yes", but based off of karma, as well.

[WWYD]

EDIT: My apologies, I misread the context of the question. I'll put in an actual post that doesn't read "blargh SOI" when I'm not playing Arm.

blargh soi

I am pretty against the idea of a similar system for Arm, though.

[RogueGunslinger]

Seems all your problems are inherent to SOI. Is it really hard to imagine staff calling for roles like they are now for Bynners and house members, only making it a little more tailored to flavoring the gameworld more, and providing clan leadership less?

[Malken]

WWYD, please analyze the idea as it is, and not related to SOI. Forget SOI when you analyze that idea.

I didn't mention the mud because I didn't want people to have that damn, "If it belongs to another RPI, it's crap." mentality that we often get here.

So, just ponder that idea as if it wasn't from any other mud out there..

(I've noticed that many people here are quick to shoot down an idea from another mud, but when Morgenes codes it up here, it suddenly becomes gold and the greatest thing ever.)

[Qzzrbl]

WWYD, please analyze the idea as it is, and not related to SOI. Forget SOI when you analyze that idea.

I didn't mention the mud because I didn't want people to have that damn, "If it belongs to another RPI, it's crap." mentality that we often get here.

So, just ponder that idea as if it wasn't from any other mud out there..

(I've noticed that many people here are quick to shoot down an idea from another mud, but when Morgenes codes it up here, it suddenly becomes gold and the greatest thing ever.)

Can someone explain the RPP system to me?

I've never played SoI. >_>

[Malken]

WWYD, please analyze the idea as it is, and not related to SOI. Forget SOI when you analyze that idea.

I didn't mention the mud because I didn't want people to have that damn, "If it belongs to another RPI, it's crap." mentality that we often get here.

So, just ponder that idea as if it wasn't from any other mud out there..

(I've noticed that many people here are quick to shoot down an idea from another mud, but when Morgenes codes it up here, it suddenly becomes gold and the greatest thing ever.)

Can someone explain the RPP system to me?

I've never played SoI. >_>

Gah, no, why, the whole point isn't SOI, grrr, it's the idea I wrote about!

GG WWYD