How about a Karma System change?

[jmordetsky]

A lot of times I only want to play a mage or veteran combat character just so I can keep up with the Jonses.  There are just too many players I personally know who are so obsessed with getting their skills up and use the most outlandish methods to do it.  A lot of times I feel pressured to follow similar patterns just so I can stand a chance.

Saw this, made me sick to my stomach.  If you know people are behaving this way, please do your duty to your fellow players and file a character complaint.  Objective: branch characters should be crushed with swift brutality.

I don't think it should make you sick - I think it's way more common then you might think. I agree it's wrong - but - I also think it's human and normal to feel that way. Especially when you're trying to survive and your enemies/competition are using these tactics. That said -I don't think the Karma system is to blame. It's the fact that skill levels are capped the way they are. I'm going to post something about it, but I wanted to get approval from the staff first.

[mansa]

The changes to the elementalist class created a much easier and faster path to coded power with minimal risk to the character.  With little to no interaction with other characters, one can fairly quickly eclipse the usefulness and ability of most mundane classes with the same amount of playing-time.  Because of this, some players seem to treat the elementalist class as their only choice if their goal is to somehow impact the game world in a meaningful or widespread way, and I think that's really unfortunate.  If elementalists weren't so easy to improve, several people would probably stop repeat-playing them -- it should really be interpreted as a class mechanic failure, and it's been debated before whether there was anything to stop/slow the repeat play of high-karma classes.

Too much of the Arm 1 culture is stacked against this ever reverting, however, and I don't think any karma regulations would really have enough of an impact to decrease the negative ripples certain players feel as a result of it.  I also don't mean to paint it as an aspect of the game that makes it unplayable, but simply that treating the symptoms doesn't solve the problem.

-LoD

Are you sure that the playerbase can't handle a reverting of skill progression?

I mean, if you can full branch out a magicker in 100 hours of gameplay, and the rest of the mundane guilds take at least 500 hours of gameplay, doesn't that seem unfair?

Magickers are supposed to be scary, yes, but they aren't supposed to be game controlling characters via their skills and only their skills, and so quickly!  Magickers should have to make friends, in order to get more powerful.

I think a code change to make magickers branch more slowly would maybe upset the playerbase for a week, maybe two weeks, but the point is to have fun, not to be able to max out your skills.

Sometimes you need to step in and say, 'This code change was put forth with the intention that the game was ending soon, and people wanted to become powerful faster.  Since the game isn't ending in 6 months, and players will be around for longer than 6 months, the progression of skills will take longer, much like how it was'  If that's what you're saying happened, LoD.

I'm just guessing here.

[jstorrie]

I also think that magicker skill progression is not well-balanced with skill progressions of other classes. I think the magick skill trees should be re-evaluated such that 'young' magickers are not so fragile out-of-the-box, and then branching and casting-power should be tweaked to increase at slower rates. The higher-tier skills of (most, but not all) the mundane classes require intense amounts of play to reach, whereas a 'gicker can 'max' in less time and without ever going outside. I don't mind magickers being on the overall 'more powerful' than the mundane classes, but they shouldn't live in a world of their own.

[janeshephard]

I also think that magicker skill progression is not well-balanced with skill progressions of other classes. I think the magick skill trees should be re-evaluated such that 'young' magickers are not so fragile out-of-the-box, and then branching and casting-power should be tweaked to increase at slower rates. The higher-tier skills of (most, but not all) the mundane classes require intense amounts of play to reach, whereas a 'gicker can 'max' in less time and without ever going outside. I don't mind magickers being on the overall 'more powerful' than the mundane classes, but they shouldn't live in a world of their own.

Magickers live on a world of their own because it is difficult to remain incognito. Start making the world a little more magick friendly, and there are ways of doing this without breaking things, before you swing a nerf bat.

[Pale Horse]

I don't mind magickers being on the overall 'more powerful' than the mundane classes, but they shouldn't live in a world of their own.

Not to pick on you, but yes, in many ways magickers do indeed live in a "world of their own."  They are ostracized from socializing with normal people.  In Allanak they are segregated into a section of the city to keep them away from the general populous.  In the wastes, if they are not powerful they are quickly killed be it by the land it's self, animals, other magickers or bands of gith and raiders.

The documentation and the so called magicker hate threads that pop up every so often on the board all point towards magickers often being kept in their own places in the world, thus making the average magicker either very alone or forced to live with his own kind in an artificial "world of their own."

[jalden]

Hey,

I feel that the Karma System could use some tweaks.

The idea that I feel is that there may be too many higher level karma classes in the game.  This is all just a feeling, but, I figure a subtle change might fix it.


The problem might be that people with 8 karma might be making high karma classes frequently after their last one died, so a way to prevent people from making sorcerer after sorcerer after sorcerer would be to have a time limit imposed on specific classes, after the last one died.

Consider it this way:

You make a Sorcerer.  You have to wait 6 months before you can make another.
You make a Nilazi.  You have to wait 5 months before you can make another.
You make a Mul.  You have to wait 4 months before you make another one.
You make a Krathi.  You have to wait 3 months before you can make another one.
You make a Vivaduan.  You have to wait 2 months before you can make another one.

6 months could be the longest that you have to wait.  The time left is visible in the character creation screen.
You could make a Sorcerer, die in a week, make a Rukkian, die, Nilazi, die, make a Krathi, die, make a second Rukkian, die, make a pickpocket, die, make a warrior, die, and then your 6 months are over and you can make another Sorcerer again.

Is 6 months too long?   Too short?   Is a change like this necessary?  Not necessary?  What do you think?

The idea of adding more restrictions to the karma system isn't overly appealing to me. However, if automated somehow, that could be convenient way of regulating the number of magic users.

It's a little bit odd that half the players I see in the gaj are gemmed (Is this just when I log on?) Although, part of it could be due to the temples being so close to the gaj.  Another contributor is probably that people are inclined to play the highest karma class they can, especially if they have not played it yet.  And of the twelve different karma required classes, nine of them are magickers. 

Would a gemmer only bar help with this?

Only having one gemmer friendly bar could increase the feel that the people of allanak are fearful/prejudice of magic. If the gemmer bar wasn't the gaj this would decrease the feel that everyone is a magicker -- the downside is it would spread the small player base more.  But using one of the current bars would decrease this a little.

[AmandaGreathouse]

The gemmer bar is the Gaj, though. It's also the rinthi, shitcloak, and other undesirables bar.

You don't see gemmed in Red's Retreat. Because it's socially above them.

I don't see adding a bar for the gemmed being of much help.

Although I do think that making Red's the starting location for Allanak as a possible solution. You have new players, and they're likely going to hang out in the bar that's the starting location for a while. Meh. I just don't see adding a bar for the gemmed as a good solution. Mostly because it would dilute the playerbase further. You can already see the prejudice against magickers by the fact that they 'are' generally only welcome at the shittiest bar in Allanak. Where you can see how putting a bar in for the gemmed would likely only inflame an already violent and rioting population, firstly, and secondly, there's already a place for gemmed to meet in the Quarter. Yeah it's not a bar, and yeah it's outside, but I don't think that adding a bar would add much to the game world besides further sequestering an already isolated role.

It doesn't surprise me in the least that there are so many gemmed in the Gaj. It's about the only establishment that will deal with them outside the quarter, and there's at least one gemmed mage npc in the bazaar as well, so I don't see it as the gemmed always being sequestered only in the Quarter when even the imm-written population reflects them as having a (small) presence outside of it.

[Salt Merchant]

You don't see gemmed in Red's Retreat. Because it's socially above them.

Not true. You do see them there from time to time.

[A Dry, Quiet War]

I mean, if you can full branch out a magicker in 100 hours of gameplay, and the rest of the mundane guilds take at least 500 hours of gameplay, doesn't that seem unfair?

Magickers are supposed to be scary, yes, but they aren't supposed to be game controlling characters via their skills and only their skills, and so quickly!  Magickers should have to make friends, in order to get more powerful.

In our game world, with permadeath and dangerous beasts and silly players, guilds are much more represented by their starting point than their stopping point.  If a five-day warrior can easily kill a five-day mage, magick isn't so scary anymore.

[AmandaGreathouse]

You don't see gemmed in Red's Retreat. Because it's socially above them.

Not true. You do see them there from time to time.

Emphasis mine.

Magickers are generally easily avoided, even in Allanak, if you aren't at the scumhole bar which they'd rightfully be at. Sure, I've had my share of mages go to Red's, but never, EVER to hang out downstairs in the bar. More like upstairs, out of general sight, for semi-private conversation.

I think it's fine the way it is now.

[RogueGunslinger]

I love the idea of making Reds the starting locations... Really love it.

[Winterless]

I don't see adding a bar for the gemmed being of much help.

Giving gemmers their own bar would be like giving them a viable station. Gemmers do not have a station, they are the lowest of the low, lower than rinthis and even half-elven scum, lower than a non-citizen. Forcing them to have to go to the dirtiest bar in town, read The Gaj, is fitting because it shows them what they will never acclimate to, even if that be a dirty elven rinther.

Sorry for the derail... Let's get this back to talking about a Karma System change.

[hyzhenhok]

I always thought the Gaj was a bit oddly placed. I've always thought Allanak's shady, dirty commoner bar should be a little further out of the way.

Given what the Gaj has gone through, it wouldn't be terribly strange for it finally to get destroyed and be replaced by a different establishment.

[RogueGunslinger]

Given what the Gaj has gone through, it wouldn't be terribly strange for it finally to get destroyed and be replaced by a different establishment.

I'd start a riot.


Not in game.

[Salt Merchant]

Giving gemmers their own bar would be like giving them a viable station. Gemmers do not have a station, they are the lowest of the low, lower than rinthis and even half-elven scum, lower than a non-citizen. Forcing them to have to go to the dirtiest bar in town, read The Gaj, is fitting because it shows them what they will never acclimate to, even if that be a dirty elven rinther.

Sorry for the derail... Let's get this back to talking about a Karma System change.

This seems too extreme to me.

Whatever else people think, gemmed are citizens by the direct mandate of the Highlord and possess all the privileges of a citizen. They're not lower than a non-citizen; the criminal system treats them better (jail instead of death for petty crimes), for instance.

[AreteX]

I don't know if a time limit is the right thing to do for people who have been given vast amounts of Karma, I do believe they have earned being able to play what they want, right?

I know it would be frustrating to make a Sorc/Psi, and die 3 hours into it, and not be able to make one for SIX MONTHS.  Thats a long time!  All that excitement of playing one of those, and boom, its gone.

I think that could really make alot of people frustrated and decide to not play for six months.  Know what I mean?

I really do enjoy the idea of being given 1-2 karma for account creation date.  For someone like myself who is quite nervous about their roleplayability, but I do think I do alright.  I follow documentation, play characters appropriately.  I don't really know the best way to branch skills ect, I don't spam them.  You know, I play the roles properly, persay.

But, I'm still shy.  I don't request an admin to watch me to try and obtain karma.  So, I am without.

It would be incredibly refreshing to be able to try out another karma level.  There are alot of concepts that seem very interesting, and intriguing.

Powerful, yes, but for someone like myself who really just loves the concept of Arm, would be played on a responsible level.

Good idea

[Xagon]

But, I'm still shy.  I don't request an admin to watch me to try and obtain karma.  So, I am without.

You can put a request in, a "karma review" so to speak. It's my understanding that staff will give out the first few points like candy, so long as you haven't done anything not to earn them.

As for the change, I'm not sure how I feel about it. I'm comfortable with my karma level, partly because I haven't exhausted all the character concepts I have in mind for what I have access to, but I wouldn't mind having access to a bit more.

I think the change shouldn't so much be with the karma system, but with special applications. Knowing that I only have three attempts in a year causes me to instinctively horde them until I come up with the perfect three concepts. Regarding access to karma classes, I think the limit on special applications should be opened up, but that they should remain capped if something other than an unaccessable class is wanted.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Regarding access to karma classes, I think the limit on special applications should be opened up, but that they should remain capped if something other than an unaccessable class is wanted.

This.

Also: If that were the case, I'd probably never, ever hit the cap.

[spawnloser]

Regarding access to karma classes, I think the limit on special applications should be opened up, but that they should remain capped if something other than an unaccessable class is wanted.

This.

Also: If that were the case, I'd probably never, ever hit the cap.

This is a good argument for not changing the special application process and/or limitations, if you ask me.

[spawnloser]

Take the Red's Retreat/Gemmer debate to the thread devoted specifically to that topic, please.  You can find it here:  http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,38170.msg524782.html#msg524782

[Old Kank]

Another contributor is probably that people are inclined to play the highest karma class they can, especially if they have not played it yet.  And of the twelve different karma required classes, nine of them are magickers. 

I think this is a much bigger factor than any of the power/branching/game mechanics that have previously been discussed.

Roughly 85% of my time on Arm has been devoted to human/dwarf/city elf warriors/rangers/assassins/merchants/pick-pockets.  I've played soldiers, mercenaries, hunters, raiders, thieves, tribals, guards, slaves, politicians and drifters.  After a while, playing any of the principle mundane roles started to feel repetitive, like I was just re-hashing one of previous characters with a new body/personality, so I moved on to karma roles and, special roles aside, I doubt I'll go back to mundane roles anytime soon.

It's only natural; as long as there are no mundane, non-restricted karma classes/races, people will continue to graduate into magickers and other restricted roles.

[Synthesis]

I have plenty of karma and I play mundane roles all the time.

Hell, even my magickers are mostly mundane.  A hillbilly with a nuclear warhead is still a hillbilly.

[Aaron Goulet]

Karma has historically played a role in determining someone's eligibility for roles that require a little more trust the "average" PC.  I think that using karma to determine who is eligible for in-game "perks" (aside from what your "non-average" PC starts with) gives karma players an in-character advantage over karma-less players with no in-character justification.

This is one of the reasons karma is considered an OOC concept rather than an IC concept, and crossing the line between the two is likely to invite a whole new set of headaches and (valid) complaints of unfairness.

[RogueGunslinger]

I believe Karma is flawed. It should be all or nothing. Why does a sorcerer require more trust to play than a krathi? I think you're either trusted enough to keep the documentation, and the best interest of the game in mind, or you're not. Why is someone trusted enough to play a Mul, not trusted enough to play a psion or sorc?

I believe this principle makes Karma seem like a sytem used not to show trust, but to give players a goal or let them set their sights on a sort of achievement. Obviously that's not the case, but it's the only real justification I can give.

[musashi]

It also helps to keep the populations of each guild in check somewhat. There are not supposed to be a disproportionate number of sorcerers in the game compared to warriors so having one guild be karma 0 and the other karma 8 helps to keep one rare and the other common I would think.