How about a Karma System change?

[Akoto]

Ok, first, a qualification:  I've been staff in a couple muds/games in my years.  Statement that qualified:  Staff are not the all seeing all knowing . . . you know the rest from fight club.  I don't have any clue what the internal mechanics are staff side here, but I suspect they do *not* know, unless they actively look or you have a prominent account name, what your last character was.

So *if* that feature doesn't exist, perhaps a quick way to look at the character histories of a person applying would be useful, so trends could be recognized.  If not that, then timers, please.

Your character's information is recorded in your account notes. Class, race, means of death, all of that. Trust me when I say that they are quite vigilant. I'm one of the people who contributed to the creation of the 'three specapps per year' rule by way of my own abundant applications.

Just recently, staff asked me to play a different race or two for a month, because I had played a few of a certain one in a row. I hadn't done anything wrong. They just watch, and when necessary, ask for a shift in the pattern.

[Jenred]

The whole system is unbalanced as it is.
Before applying time-limits to Karma classes, the whole Karma system itself needs to be adjusted.

The time limit thing seems like more or less a stop-gap fix to prevent an influx of alot of the same type of class.

When to me, the real -underlying- question is, why is a player with 8 Karma even applying for 2-3 or 4 or whatever, Psions/Sorcs/Nilazis. in a limited time frame?

If they are the type of player to be trusted with 8 Karma, expected to run plots, basically be trusted to play the characters without much supervision, then something is wrong if they are burning through that many characters in a limited time frame. And perhaps the player should be re-evaluated as to whether or not it was a good choice to award that amount of Karma in the first place.

If this is not the problem, and the Official Opinion is that there is no association between character-longevity and player-trustworthiness, then the whole post becomes a moot point.





All that being said, the Karma system is systematically subjected to everyone's opinions of what it is or should be. I believe that player trustworthiness has no relevant connection to number of characters. Sometimes things happen, and just because you had a bad luck incident in your first week of playing shouldn't mean that you should be banned from a guild that you were deemed trustworthy enough to play.

[Akoto]

All that being said, the Karma system is systematically subjected to everyone's opinions of what it is or should be. I believe that player trustworthiness has no relevant connection to number of characters. Sometimes things happen, and just because you had a bad luck incident in your first week of playing shouldn't mean that you should be banned from a guild that you were deemed trustworthy enough to play.

The above quote is pretty much my answer to the remainder of your commentary. Shit happens, to borrow the old saying. Remember that most karma roles are mages who, unless Gemmed, live under constant threat of being hunted and killed.

Repeat deaths are hardly a rare thing for these concepts. That's especially true of muls, who are always escaped slaves, and even more so of Nilazi/Sorcerers/Psions. Yes, they're high karma, but they pay for it by being the creatures universally hated and hunted by everyone in the game world (with a few sparse exceptions). The most powerful guilds tend to conversely be the least likely to survive due to the built in stigma.

[LoD]

One of the major issues with today's game, as it pertains the repeat play of high-karma roles, is that the current culture positions them as global antagonists straight out of chargen.  Sorcerers and Psionicists are generally killed upon sight/discovery, escaped muls are generally captured or put to death, and elementalists have only a handful of options to peacefully exist and pursue their abilities.  Mundane characters almost always accrue friend and foe as a product of their in-game actions and decisions, not as a product of their OOC class choice.

Repeat play of these high-karma roles often artificially raises their negative footprint on the game (especially where mundanes are concerned) because their access to productive, positive, and cooperative oriented plot lines are limited by several factors, such as the fairly small player base, the perpetuated fear of magick and psionicists in most civilizations, and the resource-intensive slavery system.  It's no wonder that many of these karma-related roles are more heavily "felt" by the surrounding players than any number of half-elven rangers, human warriors, or dwarven assassins.

Mundane characters are also frequently hamstrung by the documentation and culture, forced to view many of these high-karma roles as opposition from the moment they're revealed and to immediately treat them with fear, hostility, and malice without them so much as opening their mouths to speak.  This isn't to say that everyone adheres to these generalizations, but we're often reminded via frequent threads on the GDB to follow the documentation in our interactions.

The karma system is not to blame, as a much larger part of the game would need to be overhauled if you're to have any hope of curbing the negative ripples people occasionally feel as a result of the current design with respect to high-karma roles.  The issues with repeat play are merely indicators of a much harder problem to solve -- one which will probably have to wait until Armageddon 2 to be properly addressed.

-LoD

[Kryos]

Your character's information is recorded in your account notes. Class, race, means of death, all of that. Trust me when I say that they are quite vigilant. I'm one of the people who contributed to the creation of the 'three specapps per year' rule by way of my own abundant applications.

Just recently, staff asked me to play a different race or two for a month, because I had played a few of a certain one in a row. I hadn't done anything wrong. They just watch, and when necessary, ask for a shift in the pattern.

Right . .  I'm not . . . a new player.  Any and everyone knows this.  My point is, is it something the staff can easily access while looking at your app, or is it currently tedious to do such?

[Kryos]

LoD, your post brings up a whole slew of points I don't agree with.  A player with 8 karma should know how to rock the socks off a nil/sorc/psion in such a way that quick death from identification doesn *not* happen.  If its happening often, they may need to consider if they are really capable of playing any of those.  Muls are a different story, but with a tinge of imagination, that problem is solved too.

In short, I totally disagree with your post, top to bottom.  If you objective: branch and grind your coded skills while in those kinds of roles and get smushed, I've 0 pity for you.  Look around.  See that guy at the bar next to you?  He's probably a sorc.  That guy at the table?  Psion.  And that bright and cheery guy everyone loves:  Nil.  That's how its done.

[Akoto]

Right . .  I'm not . . . a new player.  Any and everyone knows this.  My point is, is it something the staff can easily access while looking at your app, or is it currently tedious to do such?

I didn't mean to insinuate that you were. Just stating what I did in the course of the discussion. No offense intended.

If I had to guess (which is all I can do in this case), I'd say they could readily look at the information if they needed to, yes. In my case, they just knew from observing the trend.

[Gimfalisette]

A player with 8 karma should know how to rock the socks off a nil/sorc/psion in such a way that quick death from identification doesn *not* happen.

That, I really don't agree with. It's totally possible to have the karma to play X and to not have a clue, codedly, about how X works. If you don't have a clue about how X works codedly, then you're highly likely to get picked off immediately.

My point is, is it something the staff can easily access while looking at your app, or is it currently tedious to do such?

Based on my very limited knowledge of ARM's data structure, I would guess that this is probably more tedious and less easy to do.



I don't really think we need any changes to the current karma system. That is not to say that I think the system is awesome; I don't. But I don't think putting bandages on it is going to improve anything.

[FantasyWriter]

Your character's information is recorded in your account notes. Class, race, means of death, all of that. Trust me when I say that they are quite vigilant. I'm one of the people who contributed to the creation of the 'three specapps per year' rule by way of my own abundant applications.

Just recently, staff asked me to play a different race or two for a month, because I had played a few of a certain one in a row. I hadn't done anything wrong. They just watch, and when necessary, ask for a shift in the pattern.

Right . .  I'm not . . . a new player.  Any and everyone knows this.  My point is, is it something the staff can easily access while looking at your app, or is it currently tedious to do such?

When I was a noob, I was busted at least twice for trying to bring back concepts I had played three or four PCs back.

[Reiloth]

I think a lot of the higher karma roles require a few 'go throughs' before you really get how to play them.

[jmordetsky]

I dig it. Mansa is awesome.

[LoD]

LoD, your post brings up a whole slew of points I don't agree with.  A player with 8 karma should know how to rock the socks off a nil/sorc/psion in such a way that quick death from identification doesn *not* happen.  If its happening often, they may need to consider if they are really capable of playing any of those.  Muls are a different story, but with a tinge of imagination, that problem is solved too.

In short, I totally disagree with your post, top to bottom.  If you objective: branch and grind your coded skills while in those kinds of roles and get smushed, I've 0 pity for you.  Look around.  See that guy at the bar next to you?  He's probably a sorc.  That guy at the table?  Psion.  And that bright and cheery guy everyone loves:  Nil.  That's how its done.

You don't actually seem to be disagreeing with anything that -I- said.  Perhaps there was a misunderstanding.

I wasn't claiming that people are having problems with their sorcs, psionicists, and muls surviving;  I imagine that quite a few of them are very successful in keeping their characters alive and well -- though, as Gimfalisette's response touches on, karma isn't a measure of one's understanding of code or class mechanics, but of the staff's trust in that person to play the role responsibly, no matter what that role may be.  There are a few karma classes that I've never tried, even though I've played the game for almost 20 years.

What I was saying is that mundane players will often feel the "presence" of high-karma classes (sorcs, muls, psi's) in a more consistently negative way, because almost all of them begin in opposition of our characters by virtue of the culture and documentation.  I was implying that a large-scale change to the system could present a world where these high-karma class roles aren't viewed as global villains, and are, instead, judged upon their IG actions and decisions, which opens up avenues for many of them not to be perceived as monsters, villains, and murderers against whom most characters are currently universally aligned.

Players feel the presence of repeat-players not because karma is failing us or that karma-class players cannot keep their characters alive, but because the culture and documentation of the current game put them at a disadvantage for achieving cooperative, peaceful, or collaborative relationships without someone usually bending the rules a bit, and I think that could be changed to allow for a broader spectrum of interaction while narrowing the criteria for which someone is lumped into the "enemy/monster" category.

Karma restrictions would be attacking the wrong problem.

-LoD

[Jenred]

Your character's information is recorded in your account notes. Class, race, means of death, all of that. Trust me when I say that they are quite vigilant. I'm one of the people who contributed to the creation of the 'three specapps per year' rule by way of my own abundant applications.

Just recently, staff asked me to play a different race or two for a month, because I had played a few of a certain one in a row. I hadn't done anything wrong. They just watch, and when necessary, ask for a shift in the pattern.

Right . .  I'm not . . . a new player.  Any and everyone knows this.  My point is, is it something the staff can easily access while looking at your app, or is it currently tedious to do such?

Its not a tedious process. And there are not usually a large number of applications in the pool at any given time.
If you have a high-school education, it can take anywhere from 2-5 minutes to read an application, and another 5 minutes to check their account.
An app that requires a bunch of changes can take a total of 30 minutes.

[spicemustflow]

Just recently, staff asked me to play a different race or two for a month, because I had played a few of a certain one in a row.

Weird. Did you recycle your descriptions or concepts? Or have played only one guild/sub combo?

[Sephiroto]

I think a lot of the higher karma roles require a few 'go throughs' before you really get how to play them.

Or until you're fortunate enough to live the required time to grow strong enough to protect yourself from 90+% of the mundane population and the few rampaging, maxed-out elementalists.  Sometimes it is pure luck to survive.  I was lucky to be successful with my first sorcerer.  My second wasn't so fortunate, and it wasn't due to ignorance of how to play the class.

High-karma roles often have a survival rate comparable to a 1st Lieutenant in Vietnam.  Most of them are fragged early on.  Those who manage to survive usually become heros or villians.

On another note, I was thinking that if the special application process was more detailed and if the staff was more liberal with what high-karma players could roll through that process, then we might notice a lot less competition for those psionicist roles, see less sorcerers of doom and come across a lower number of rogue mages.

A lot of times I only want to play a mage or veteran combat character just so I can keep up with the Jonses.  There are just too many players I personally know who are so obsessed with getting their skills up and use the most outlandish methods to do it.  A lot of times I feel pressured to follow similar patterns just so I can stand a chance.

I'd probably go 2-3 years without playing another high karma guild if I could routine special app mundane classes with boosted skills.  Personally, I feel like playing Armageddon is an arms race.  Playing Amos the butter-fingered pickpocket or Malik the 0 day warrior just isn't as fun as it used to be in the days where MOST of the playerbase was mundane or didn't know how to branch their parry skill in an obscenely short time.

[janeshephard]

The problem might be that people with 8 karma might be making high karma classes frequently after their last one died, so a way to prevent people from making sorcerer after sorcerer after sorcerer would be to have a time limit imposed on specific classes, after the last one died.

I asked specifically about this in an email to the staff. As long as you have the karma you can reroll the same karma restricted race or guild to your heart's content. As far as I can tell I never met the same exact reincarnated sorcerer, or mul over and over and over in-game. So "might be" may very well be "very rarely has it ever happened.

[Akoto]

Weird. Did you recycle your descriptions or concepts? Or have played only one guild/sub combo?

Nope. It was a karmic race, though, and staff didn't want me to pigeonhole myself. I didn't take issue with it, at any rate.

[jcarter]

I like the system as is. I trust the staff to notice if someones playing there 19th sorcerer in a row.

The issue isn't necessarily playing something 19 times in a row, although I understand  you're just throwing a number out there. Sorcerers and other high-karma guilds are things that need to stay rare and out of sight. Playing one sorcerer after the other comes across as just inappropriate and too much. As LoD said, repeat playing of it can leave a negative footprint.

My view on the matter is that players shouldn't have 8 karma, and that sorcerers and psions should be kept special-app only. Keeping these two guilds specapp allows for better monitoring of who's playing them, how many are running around, and the general background of the character, as well as limiting their numbers.  If you're that determined to play a sorcerer or psion, waiting two or so weeks for the special app shouldn't be an issue.  This would also stifle any issue, if there is even one at all, of people rolling psion after psion after psion or whatever.

[jhunter]

 

Playing Amos the butter-fingered pickpocket or Malik the 0 day warrior just isn't as fun as it used to be in the days where MOST of the playerbase was mundane or didn't know how to branch their parry skill in an obscenely short time.

I feel that the addition of stat prioritization contributed greatly to this as well. Almost every character you run across is prioritized optimally for their class.

[janeshephard]

Playing Amos the butter-fingered pickpocket or Malik the 0 day warrior just isn't as fun as it used to be in the days where MOST of the playerbase was mundane or didn't know how to branch their parry skill in an obscenely short time.

I feel that the addition of stat prioritization contributed greatly to this as well. Almost every character you run across is prioritized optimally for their class.

I wouldn't play a weak character, or a butter-fingered pick pocket. If that's your thing do it. I like to play capable characters. Where exactly does me doing this impact the game in a negative way? Why isn't it as much fun?

To put it in perspective, if my character and your character fit in the game world, who cares if they're badass magickers or pickpockets?

[Pale Horse]

I wouldn't play a weak character, or a butter-fingered pick pocket. If that's your thing do it. I like to play capable characters. Where exactly does me doing this impact the game in a negative way? Why isn't it as much fun?

To put it in perspective, if my character and your character fit in the game world, who cares if they're badass magickers or pickpockets?

Obviously some do, or this thread wouldn't exist  

I have enough trust in our Staff to put the brakes on anyone they deem supplying a high amount of 6-8 karma restricted classes/races where they do not wish having that many in the game at a certain point in time.

If they're fine with someone who has earned their trust to have the highly esteemed (sorta) 8th level of karma playing Sorcerer after Psion after Nilazi, etc, then it's fine with me.  If it bothers me, I'll just find an area where I'm more than likely never to run into them, if I can even recognize them for what they are.

[Deedee]

Playing Amos the butter-fingered pickpocket or Malik the 0 day warrior just isn't as fun as it used to be in the days where MOST of the playerbase was mundane or didn't know how to branch their parry skill in an obscenely short time.

I feel that the addition of stat prioritization contributed greatly to this as well. Almost every character you run across is prioritized optimally for their class.

I wouldn't play a weak character, or a butter-fingered pick pocket. If that's your thing do it. I like to play capable characters. Where exactly does me doing this impact the game in a negative way? Why isn't it as much fun?

To put it in perspective, if my character and your character fit in the game world, who cares if they're badass magickers or pickpockets?

I've played a character with poor/below average/average/poor.  Stats like that are totally playable, and can make a character's life fun and interesting.  They simply require more patience, because if you're too anxious to advance your characters' coded skills, you're not going to enjoy the role with these stats.  There are always ways to get around limitations that lower stats provide.

[LoD]

I wouldn't play a weak character, or a butter-fingered pick pocket. If that's your thing do it. I like to play capable characters. Where exactly does me doing this impact the game in a negative way? Why isn't it as much fun?

To put it in perspective, if my character and your character fit in the game world, who cares if they're badass magickers or pickpockets?

Jane, I think what he means is that he finds himself forced to choose classes with a swift ascension to coded power (e.g. magickers, psionicists), because he perceives the current game culture to have enough of a skill-oriented element that it prohibitively disadvantages his slow-to-improve mundane concepts.  I don't necessarily agree, but I believe that's where he was going when he mentioned he'd be much more likely to play a pick-pocket if he were to receive some type of beginning skill boost.

It wasn't about whether the character was being played as a capable person, but whether they were capable of competing on a coded level with the other established characters in-game.  In that context, many people will care if players are simply able to make characters that are instantly accomplished and skilled without having to invest any time in that power.  The time we spend investing in a given character impacts our decision-making process.  If someone handed you a model glider and you recklessly throw it and break it, you probably won't feel too bad -- especially if they're ready to simply handy you another model glider.  But if you had to build that model glider from scratch every time prior to the throw, you'd probably recognize that your throwing motion was more cautious, practiced, and determined, especially if crashing meant you'd have to build another completely from scratch.

The changes to the elementalist class created a much easier and faster path to coded power with minimal risk to the character.  With little to no interaction with other characters, one can fairly quickly eclipse the usefulness and ability of most mundane classes with the same amount of playing-time.  Because of this, some players seem to treat the elementalist class as their only choice if their goal is to somehow impact the game world in a meaningful or widespread way, and I think that's really unfortunate.  If elementalists weren't so easy to improve, several people would probably stop repeat-playing them -- it should really be interpreted as a class mechanic failure, and it's been debated before whether there was anything to stop/slow the repeat play of high-karma classes.

Too much of the Arm 1 culture is stacked against this ever reverting, however, and I don't think any karma regulations would really have enough of an impact to decrease the negative ripples certain players feel as a result of it.  I also don't mean to paint it as an aspect of the game that makes it unplayable, but simply that treating the symptoms doesn't solve the problem.

-LoD

[Kryos]

A lot of times I only want to play a mage or veteran combat character just so I can keep up with the Jonses.  There are just too many players I personally know who are so obsessed with getting their skills up and use the most outlandish methods to do it.  A lot of times I feel pressured to follow similar patterns just so I can stand a chance.

Saw this, made me sick to my stomach.  If you know people are behaving this way, please do your duty to your fellow players and file a character complaint.  Objective: branch characters should be crushed with swift brutality.

[janeshephard]

I wouldn't play a weak character, or a butter-fingered pick pocket. If that's your thing do it. I like to play capable characters. Where exactly does me doing this impact the game in a negative way? Why isn't it as much fun?

To put it in perspective, if my character and your character fit in the game world, who cares if they're badass magickers or pickpockets?

Jane, I think what he means is that he finds himself forced to choose classes with a swift ascension to coded power (e.g. magickers, psionicists), because he perceives the current game culture to have enough of a skill-oriented element that it prohibitively disadvantages his slow-to-improve mundane concepts.  I don't necessarily agree, but I believe that's where he was going when he mentioned he'd be much more likely to play a pick-pocket if he were to receive some type of beginning skill boost.

-LoD

I appreciate a clear response to my question. I suspect most players aren't doing this but I may be in the minority. I mean, yeah, I've seen combat characters love to spar, or magickers love to experiment and further their skills. I tend to like building up my character. I haven't received any negative feedback about this yet. I'm not doing it to "keep up with the jonses" though. Although, interestingly enough, doing that to keep up with the populace of Zalanthas seems very Zalanthian.