How about a Karma System change?

[mansa]

Hey,

I feel that the Karma System could use some tweaks.

The idea that I feel is that there may be too many higher level karma classes in the game.  This is all just a feeling, but, I figure a subtle change might fix it.


The problem might be that people with 8 karma might be making high karma classes frequently after their last one died, so a way to prevent people from making sorcerer after sorcerer after sorcerer would be to have a time limit imposed on specific classes, after the last one died.

Consider it this way:

You make a Sorcerer.  You have to wait 6 months before you can make another.
You make a Nilazi.  You have to wait 5 months before you can make another.
You make a Mul.  You have to wait 4 months before you make another one.
You make a Krathi.  You have to wait 3 months before you can make another one.
You make a Vivaduan.  You have to wait 2 months before you can make another one.

6 months could be the longest that you have to wait.  The time left is visible in the character creation screen.
You could make a Sorcerer, die in a week, make a Rukkian, die, Nilazi, die, make a Krathi, die, make a second Rukkian, die, make a pickpocket, die, make a warrior, die, and then your 6 months are over and you can make another Sorcerer again.

Is 6 months too long?   Too short?   Is a change like this necessary?  Not necessary?  What do you think?

[Khorm]

I'm a little indifferent about the length of the time limits imposed, but I think this is a great idea.

I like the thought of seeing more mundanes as a result.

[Booshay]

I would like to see this. I don't have much else to add.

[musashi]

I would imagine that staff have this regulated in a soft policy kind of way already. The amount of 8 karma players is no doubt quite a bit smaller than the amount of 1-4 karma players so I would assume that if staff sees someone making sorcerer after sorcerer after mindbender, they will probably just decline the next character with a note about them having played it too much.

In my experience, I've had staff do this with 0-karma roles. I once got an app declined with a message informing that me that while I played <race/guild> very well ... my last few characters had all been the same race/guild. And it was gently suggested that I try something different.

... ... I protested a bit, and got my next PC approved anyway, though now that I look back on it I feel like I should have taken their advice  

But that's beside the point, I just mean to say that it seems to me like the staff are already watching for this kind of thing.

But, on the flip side, maybe an offical policy would mean less workload for them to deal with.  

[Kryos]

Honestly, I'm glad karma is what it is and roles are restricted by it.  If anything, I would appreciate it if some things (Half giants specifically) were higher on the karma chain.  Mages grind-casting their spells or half-giants acting like humans in a bigger skin are all too common all ready. 

I wish staff would drop a serious hammer on this kind of activity and/or put a shitton more scrutiny on the roles.

[Akaramu]

Mages grind-casting their spells or half-giants acting like humans in a bigger skin are all too common all ready. 

I wish staff would drop a serious hammer on this kind of activity and/or put a shitton more scrutiny on the roles.

Huh? The half-giant example is bad roleplay, yeah... but what's wrong with grind-casting mages, if it is IC for them to practice often? It's pretty much the same as the Byn runner who shows up for sparring every morning. Except for the fact that the mage doesn't need a sparring partner - which is great for off peak players.

[Kryos]

Because much like Tektolnes, I get the impression some people have their Objective set to:  branch.  They'll find flimsy excuses for it.  This is a broad, sweeping statement I realize.  And it certainly doesn't apply to a lot of beautifully played people I meet on a daily basis in game.  

What should be happening, in my opinion, is Lord Templar Muckymuck comes along as says to you, "Oh hey gemmer scum.  I want <blah>."  Then you set about to doing/getting blah, plying your skills.  Same for Big Boss Man dictating, or some hardcore MFer surviving in the wastes on her/his wit and skill.  In other words, your use of your character's capabilities should be dependent on the IG world, not because people sit down and say, "Oh boy, I'd love to branch today."

It is my personal observation that number of players are more like Tek then person-under-heel.  Not all, heck, probably not even a majority.  But there must be enough to make me feel this way, eh?

edit:  Polish.  And to add there are *definitely* mundanes doing this out there too.  That should be the difference between a player with 0 karma and their first.  And I'm not ashamed to admit it was what earned me my first:  learning its a game about acting on the world, not about being the magiest mage to ever mage or warriorest warrior to ever warrior. 

[AmandaGreathouse]

OP: I'm really not a fan of the idea of putting more restrictions and limitations on karma roles OOC like that. If they have enough karma to be trusted with the role of a drovian or a nilazi etc, then they worked their ass off and usually spent years proving trustworthy to play it. If it becomes an issue, it will be noted and taken into account. I have some karma myself and I don't mind saying, I've been busting my ass for over two years now and I'd feel very aggravated at having that put into place. Sometimes, you want to play a vivaduan, you make one, and it dies in three hours. Yeah, you could just not play Arm for two months because that's what you want to play and you don't want to play yet another ranger. Or you could play the role that staff trusts you enough to play all day long.

As to the idea of mages 'grindcasting': On the one hand, I very much agree that it's bullshit. On the other hand, you have a lot of restrictions placed on you with regards to not being able to go places and do things under certain conditions and I feel there's nothing wrong with doing what you 'can' do while trapped (essentially). Be it 'grindcasting', talking over the Way, crafting, or what have you. It's the situations in which people are playing out a scene and such and you can tell that someone's casting their way to empty, rping, stand, no emotes or anything and do it again, disruptively, those are where I think it crosses a line.

[Cutthroat]

Do whatever keeps rare roles rare. However, I don't think a timer as originally proposed is necessarily the best way to go about it.

I would imagine that staff have this regulated in a soft policy kind of way already. The amount of 8 karma players is no doubt quite a bit smaller than the amount of 1-4 karma players so I would assume that if staff sees someone making sorcerer after sorcerer after mindbender, they will probably just decline the next character with a note about them having played it too much.
...
But that's beside the point, I just mean to say that it seems to me like the staff are already watching for this kind of thing.

I agree with this. The staff will be able to pick out people that are sticking to the same kind of roles already, and players with all this karma should know when to cut it out with their obsession with guild_whatever anyway. They should know the characters they are playing are rare, and likely won't have a problem keeping their PC alive for longer than whatever timer is set in place. A timer would also likely mean that players that will want to bypass that timer will have to put in special apps, so there will be an increased workload there.

[Zoltan]

I don't think a timer's necessary for the super high karma roles. I have a feeling that if the staff gives someone sorc karma, they know the player isn't going to get butt hurt if they say "hey, you've played two sorcerers of doom in a row now, how about trying a pickpocket or something."

[FantasyWriter]

I like the idea of the timers.
It seems to me that it would lighten staff load and make the game balance out a bit better.

[Pale Horse]

Chiming in to say that in my own experience, Staff does keep a running tab on the number of higher end Karma guilds and races that are already represented by PCs in the game.  I too have had applications turned down with a note explaining that "there are too many of [such-and-such-guild/race] in the game at this time.  Try again next month."  While I have never had an app. rejected for having played a certain guild over and over again, I will admit to being guilty of having done this.  I had something like 4 or 5 characters, one after another, of a certain higher end magicker guild once.  3 of them didn't live more than a couple RL weeks, but the last two spanned several months.  I'm glad I choose to switch it up after the last one died and went back to a mundane guild, as when I requested my account notes, it had been noted that I was playing a lot of [such-and-such-guild] as of late.  Something of a wake up call, there, and a sheepish realization that I should let someone else have a turn, as it were.

As for mansa's idea of a time limit..it could just be my own knee-jerk reaction to change or the idea of an extra limitation set on the level of krama I have been entrusted with, but I'm only thinking up ways in which I do not like the idea.  Ways like "I spent a good while thinking up that concept for a Psion, and now I have to wait 6 months to try again because I happened to be in the wrong place when that New player thought I was an NPC and killed me for my loot?."  Sure this stuff happens already.  This is a perma-death game after all, and we'd have to rethink up an awesome idea (or not so awesome.  Maybe just average that eventually grows into awesome) for the next character, but if I wanted to try a Psi again after having had my character die at the 3 hour mark..I would think having the 8th level of karma should allow me to try it again, without having to wait 6 months.

..On the other hand, Staff has proven (to me, anyway) to be a group of reasonable people, and in such a situation I could probably have a new Psi at my fingertips if I sent an email in explaining the situation and asking politely if I could make the attempt again before my timer had expired...

And now I'm just arguing with myself, on the GDB.  I'll come back when I'm more coherent.

[FantasyWriter]

 I too have had applications turned down with a note explaining that "there are too many of [such-and-such-guild/race] in the game at this time.  Try again next month."  

Another possible benefit from the timers.

[Pale Horse]

 I too have had applications turned down with a note explaining that "there are too many of [such-and-such-guild/race] in the game at this time.  Try again next month."  

Another possible benefit from the timers.

Meaning that such notes would not appear, if there was an imposed time limit keeping everything in check?  My immediate thought is that they would pop up, anyway.  People's timers counting down at different time, so that by the time my own has run it's course and I submit an app..I could have "The Note" sent back to me, explaining that 7 other people have had their times run down during this period, but they got their apps in 2 days before I did.  Better luck next time.

[jhunter]

I agree with Sorcs, psions, and nilazi. The rest I don't feel need any sort of time limit before creating another. Anything more than those feels like OOC capping of the others when realistically there are plenty of the others in the gameworld all the time. There are also plenty of others who do not play anything other than mundanes so, in the case of the elementalists, they would not get replenished as often when they die making for less interaction for those gemmers who continue to live.

[FantasyWriter]

I too have had applications turned down with a note explaining that "there are too many of [such-and-such-guild/race] in the game at this time.  Try again next month." 

Another possible benefit from the timers.

Meaning that such notes would not appear, if there was an imposed time limit keeping everything in check?  My immediate thought is that they would pop up, anyway.  People's timers counting down at different time, so that by the time my own has run it's course and I submit an app..I could have "The Note" sent back to me, explaining that 7 other people have had their times run down during this period, but they got their apps in 2 days before I did.  Better luck next time.

While that's possible, I still believe it would help.  I would assume that limiting special applications to three a year made people much less likely to submit an app unless they had every single detailed worked out and wanted to play the idea more than any other concept they had in their head.  Read: no spec apping on a whim just because they could twelve times a year.

I agree with Sorcs, psions, and nilazi. The rest I don't feel need any sort of time limit before creating another.

I agree.

[Akaramu]

I would like if mindbenders were application only and not even open for 8 karma players. There is ALWAYS too many of them. And players who don't have 8 karma don't get a chance to app for one because there's always too many already.

[deviant storm]

I too have had applications turned down with a note explaining that "there are too many of [such-and-such-guild/race] in the game at this time.  Try again next month." 

Another possible benefit from the timers.

Meaning that such notes would not appear, if there was an imposed time limit keeping everything in check?  My immediate thought is that they would pop up, anyway.  People's timers counting down at different time, so that by the time my own has run it's course and I submit an app..I could have "The Note" sent back to me, explaining that 7 other people have had their times run down during this period, but they got their apps in 2 days before I did.  Better luck next time.

I agree with this. Staff will always have to keep an eye on the numbers, simply because there will be times when more than one person wants a certain role.

Besides, I too believe that if someone is trusted enough by staff then they're going to either know not to make umpteen nilazi one after another, or they're going to listen if staff says 'do something else for a while'.

[Thorg]

The change to '3 special apps a year' has meant I'm far less likely to try higher karma roles because I know too well how a dumb decision and a lack of knowledge about how the game 'works' can result in an early death, no matter how big my application was/how excited I was about getting into the game.

So instead I'm interested in working towards achieving karma first then trying out new roles. Slapping an arbitrary period of time between how often I can play things is to me, a player who dies a lot, another limitation meaning the reward that is karma is diminished.

As far as I'm aware, caring about how other people are playing is inversely related to how much I enjoy the game. I trust that magickers, benders and half giants will be given to those who've proven they can handle the roles and that Staff will worry about the balance and quality. You know, Staff things.

[Schrodingers Cat]

The change to '3 special apps a year' has meant I'm far less likely to try higher karma roles because I know too well how a dumb decision and a lack of knowledge about how the game 'works' can result in an early death, no matter how big my application was/how excited I was about getting into the game.

This kind of thing happens more than one might think, not just with high karma guilds, but probably more frequently when someone is new to them.  Learning to play a sorcerer or a psionicist is much the same as learning to play a ranger/warrior.  A person might go through several before getting things 'right'.  This is also one of the drawbacks of special applications, because one minor mistake and that special role is over.

While players mixing things up is a good think, a blanket policy isn't necessarily a good thing I don't think.  If someone were to make a sorcerer and die shortly after entering the game, should they be restricted from making another high karma role, for a time?  What if a person plays an extremely long lived mundane type role that lasts for a real life year or so, the time they spent playing a mundane role wouldn't be taken into account under a system like this.

I think an arbitrary limit would be more of a drawback than it would help to balance karma guild/race distribution.

[mansa]

- I would like to see 1 karma to be given to all accounts that have at least 1 year since the creation of their account, and 2 karma automatically be given to anybody who has had their account for 2 years.


Obviously, the change I wrote about in the original post and the change listed above only affects people who actually have the karma for the classes specifically, and wouldn't have anything to do with a special application.

If you've been trusted with Whiran karma, you don't need to special app a Whiran again.


I just don't know how well the current system scales, when you have 100 people on a night, 150 people on a night, 200 people on a night, 250 people on a night, and I'm always looking towards the future, which is bigger and better than what you might expect.  How well are the playerbase guilds / races observed?  Is it strictly some immortal who is watching a specific player, or does all immortals look back at the last 5 characters someone made?  What if an immortal doesn't bother to look back at the last 5 characters, and say, 'Oh, hey, it's mansa again.  no spelling mistakes.  approved.' solely based on the account in question.  Could it possibly be a lack of looking further deeper into the account in question?

I mean, the immortal staff are all volunteers.  If you get 100 applications a week, how much time are you going to invest into these applications.  5 minutes per application?  2?  10?  Doing research about something does take a bit of time and energy, and not everybody has time and energy to spend.

If there was a coded system in place, something that is fair to the playerbase at hand, I'm sure it would release some time to be spent on other things.

You could put in code changes that say this:

If player makes Whiran, and dies within 3 hours, do not take away whiran option.  If whiran survives longer than 3 hours, take away whiran option for 3 months.



I mean, who knows?  Maybe all of the race / guild of the playerbase is already being tracked down in a fancy spreadsheet that displays which race is online the longest at a time per players, and which one is most popular, and which one only stays in which zone...

[Kryos]

I wouldn't be surprised, knowing Morg. But, on topic, If this timer system went in *on top* of current karma system, I'd love it.  You would not have situations where you see what feels like the same player doing the same guy several times in a row with karma classes/races.

[Akoto]

Personally, I have no interest in seeing timers applied to karma roles. Karma is a reward which represents a level of trust between the player and staff. The player has earned the privilege to apply for those guilds whenever they like, because they have shown they can handle the associated power with maturity and restraint.

If staff has an issue with someone playing the same thing several times in a row, I'm sure they could simply turn down the application. Otherwise, what you are proposing is basically another version of the special applications restriction, only for people who've worked hard enough that they don't have to go through that process. This is all setting aside the fact that two characters of the same guild can be vastly different concepts, just like any warrior or ranger.

[Kryos]

Ok, first, a qualification:  I've been staff in a couple muds/games in my years.  Statement that qualified:  Staff are not the all seeing all knowing . . . you know the rest from fight club.  I don't have any clue what the internal mechanics are staff side here, but I suspect they do *not* know, unless they actively look or you have a prominent account name, what your last character was.

So *if* that feature doesn't exist, perhaps a quick way to look at the character histories of a person applying would be useful, so trends could be recognized.  If not that, then timers, please.

[Bast]

I like the system as is. I trust the staff to notice if someones playing there 19th sorcerer in a row.