Discussion of the new stat policy

[Manhattan]

Reroll undo. YESSSSSSS. YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.

[Symphony]

Per your requests, 'reroll undo' will be live next reboot:

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,37698.msg507198.html#new

Excellent. I think this system is even better than requesting stat boosts. You get a free chance to reroll and decide what to do.

This is the single most incredible feature ever implemented!

[Jingo]

I think it's just a measure of appeasement for a problem that was created aggravated. Random stats should be done away with imho.

But enough bitching. If staff actually think this is a good idea, then they should consider making the code less inflexible.

Let me weild a sword that a bit too heavy than me, just don't let me do as much damage with it. And down the road, I should be able to become an expert with that sword regardless of what my arbitrary strength score is.

Perhaps if we were allowed to lift heavier weights in clan settings, then organizing would be much less of a headache. We could after all just ask our vnpc clannies to help us out.

I also personally think that stats should matter less in combat.

[Kevo]

Say soldier, how long have you been in the militia?

Five years sarge, including a stint in the Byn?

really? And you still can't pick up that sword? Fucking pansy.

Hooray for realism. You know what, this isn't staff's problem, this is the players. Thank you to the assholes who abused this privilege that allowed one more way for our chars to grow and mature. Again, Assholes.

Actually, instead of erasing everything I just said, I'll let it be said, along with this. Forgive me, somewhere in what I think is a bad idea, good intentions were had, that, at least, I can assume. I swore an oath to be helpful, and give constructive criticism, so even though I think this is a bad idea, I sincerely hope it goes well. I'm disappointed because this char, that I'm playing now, was the FIrST char that I intended to use the stat boost feature on, and now I'm screwed. Oh well, I'm hoping the staff goes about invisibly observing others and doling out necessary stat adjustments, even though I logically think this won't happen.

Eventually, I foresee a time when twinks will stop trying to twink because it makes the game continuously more inflexible. I'd like to see stat boosts brought back, barring that, I'd like to see an insanely complex code adjustment that makes carrying weight add to a stat modifier that coupled with time, diet, other stats, and all the things in rl that modify stats etc be made just to make this game more like real life. Doubtful, but I can dream. Even if none of that happens, who am I kidding, I'm still gonna play. Krath, if staff required mandatory plasma donation per month of play as a new form of sadistic pay per play, I'd still come back to arm.

So, in conclusion (boost my str), good luck with the changes, and I dislike the reroll change. Gambling is gambling, and Las Vegas doesn't give you a undo risky bet. And reroll, unless your stats are abysmal, is a risky bet. Glad everyone else seems to enjoy it though, god knows I'm most likely gonna use it.

And once again, forgive me for losing my temper, I'm just disappointed, as I know others are too, but all jokes aside, I'm positive this was staff's well-meaning attempt at fixing a player made problem.

When I rerolled my current char, I got the same stats. Imagine logging in, and your compensation for not being able to change your stats through rp and hard work is.....essentially, not being able to change your stats, period. (I realize there must be -some- difference in my stat because it's random, they just fall in the same brackets, but how exactly, do I know which one is worse, and which one is better)

To avoid getting bitchy, and technical and jewish (as I am partial to doing), I'll cut this short. Boooo change, still hope it works out for the best.

[Cerelum]

I think it's just a measure of appeasement for a problem that was created aggravated. Random stats should be done away with imho.

But enough bitching. If staff actually think this is a good idea, then they should consider making the code less inflexible.

Let me weild a sword that a bit too heavy than me, just don't let me do as much damage with it. And down the road, I should be able to become an expert with that sword regardless of what my arbitrary strength score is.

Perhaps if we were allowed to lift heavier weights in clan settings, then organizing would be much less of a headache. We could after all just ask our vnpc clannies to help us out.

I also personally think that stats should matter less in combat.

Seems we can't be happy unless things stay the same as always.  First they take it away, then they give us a new feature that allows you to revert back to your prior awesome stats.  You are complaining because they didn't leave it so you can TYPE a few things every day or two, then create a large log and send it into turn your average strength to good.

I personally am happy with the Reroll Undo.

[number13]

Reroll undo is somewhat silly, for reasons that were outlined in the original reroll undo thread.  I'm a little surprised that so many people are cheering for it, but whatever.  Hopefully new players will recognize that they need to reroll, in order to stay average.

Across years of playing, I think I've asked for stat adjustment twice.  Apparently, there's people who have never asked for stat adjustment, ever. I think a better solution might of been to place a lock on the number stat adjustments a player can ask for in a year's time, rather than do away with the concept.  Like once or twice a year.

I can't remember ever asking for upward stat adjustment in special app; I'm almost certain I didn't receive an upward stat adjustment in my one spec-app that was approved. Out of curiosity, I wonder if upward stat adjustment is still special app-able.  (not planning on that sort of app myself; just curious)

[Good Gortok]

I disagree, the issue is that everyone wants their stats to be "the best."

No, but few want their character to be compromised purely because their potential adversary or counterpart rolled the hard six. It is not so much a matter of players wanting to be the best but rather a problem with the fact that certain stats have a gigantic influence on your character's prowess in certain areas, and the fact that it is often quite random how stats turn out. You can decide the order of the rolls and somewhat influence them with age and physical size and such, but in the end, one PC could come out good-average-poor-good and another exceptional-good-verygood-extremelygood. This is why a lot of players have trouble coping with poor or even mediocre stats - somewhere down the line, their favorite PC might be attacked by someone who rolled He-man stats, and their favorite PC might die solely because of said stats. This is in stark contrast with every notion of game-related fairness ever conceived of, and we do play a game after all.

Guess what, someone will be stronger, smarter, faster, or more fit than you, regardless of how much you work out.

In a game where we design our characters down to the color of their eyes and the profession of their long dead parents, choose their precise age and height and weight, and decide on a largely unchangeable skill template, it is not reasonable to expect us to then accept a simple dice roll to determine the actual coded qualities of these characters. Yes, someone will be stronger, smarter, faster, or more fit than you, but leaving random chance to decide who that is goes against the concept of everything the game otherwise stands for. We do not roll dice for our age or guild, or which skills we will be able to branch, and trust me, the difference between above-average and extremely-good strength is so great that you can both feel and see it throughout the entire life of your character.

[Kryos]

I was always a fan of the old three-roll system.  But, I've no problem with no further stat changes or undo reroll.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I'm in favor, in a general way, of a point buy system. Barring that, however, while I don't think that the nixing of stat boosts was a particularly good thing, and I don't think reroll undo 'makes up' for it, I do think that having reroll undo is a nice addition to the code, and one I'll most likely use, certainly

[musashi]

I was one of those people who never used the stat boosting request, and while I agree that minimizing allowed stat boosts would have probably been better than laying out a flat absolute no ... I do feel like with the addition of an undo reroll option we as players now have a lot of control over how our stats turn out, and the idea of stats being unplayable by a terrible stroke of bad luck is more or less a thing of the past.

[Spice Spice Baby]

I used the request-a-stat-bump thing on exactly one character. I'd been playing that PC for around eight RL months and got her strength bumped a small amount. If I'd rolled that PC after the new aging code, I probably wouldn't have needed to apply for a stat bump. As long as the aging code is functioning correctly, I don't think this change will have too much of an impact.

It would be cool to get some data on the exact affect that the aging code is having on PCs, but I dunno if that's compiled anywhere or if it's considered too much of a code mechanics secret.

It'll be interesting to see the effect that 'reroll undo' has.

[number13]

^^ It's still random.  While unlikely, it's still possible to get two truly awful sets of rolls in a row.

That's not the big problem with reroll undo.  The real problem is it creates a new average, and eventually new expectations. Meaning, the common perception of what shitty stats and good stats are will probably shift upward.   It's also somewhat unfair, since a newbie is less likely to be aware of the advantage of reroll undo. There may be something of a placebo effect to reroll undo -- the illusion of an extra choice might placate someone who would otherwise be unhappy with their stats (that's a good thing).

I'd rather see a real solution. For example, the stat descriptors could encompass wider ranges, with the stat order always providing the same descriptor for an attribute slotted into a particular place in the stat order.

So, let's say the new stat descriptors are "Excellent", "Good", "Average", "Below Average".  The first attribute in the stat order is always "Excellent", the second is always "Good", and so on.  But -- the descriptors actually have a very wide range of variance, maybe even crossing into each other's ranges.   Excellent might include what is now "Good", as would the new Good.  A character would have a perception of his ability, which only approximates the randomized reality of the numbers.  Effects that modify attributes would place a little + or - sign next to the descriptor.  So you smoke some beetle dung, and now your Average agility is Average+.

A system like that would preserve the variance among individuals (a good thing?) and kill the ability of stat conscious individuals to game the system.

[Nyr]

Per your requests, 'reroll undo' will be live next reboot:

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,37698.msg507198.html#new

Wow. I honestly never thought this would happen.

I had it on an IDB list in September when I originally proposed the latest round of stat changes.  You might recall that period of time--plenty of posts about how much stats blow, countered by people that say "well they aren't that important," complete with anecdotes, then eventual discussion and argument about how people that care about stats are just twinks and deserve whatever they get.

I'm pleased it got put in as the alternative option.  No, it's not the best solution, but it is an alternative.  Doing something more complex is Armageddon Reborn territory--we've already put it on the table.  Staff have been discussing this for months.  Even some of the people discussing the more complex options liked them better, but they aren't feasible for Armageddon as it is right now.  Area of improvement:  You now have a choice and more control over your character, as a nod towards the kind of things you'll be able to do in Reborn.

[Lizzie]

Reroll undo would've made a -huge- difference in a couple of characters I had. As I said previously, for some reason with my characters, it's all about the stun points. Average strength, average agility, average wisdom...hasn't really mattered too much. But low stun points sucks and blows, at the same time. Every time I'd roll my character, whether I prioritize or not, I'll get something like:

st: av. agi: below av. wis: above av. end: above av. hps: 105 stam: 114 stun: 105

I'd reroll, hoping for at least the below av to bump up, if nothing else. I'd end up with the same stats, except the endurance would drop to below average, and my numbers would drop to hps: 99. stam: 114 stun: 95. I'd usually either store after sheer frustration after a couple of weeks, or let my character piss someone off bad enough to kill them.

I even had a magicker desert elf who started out with low strength, and given the environment and her need to be able to carry things, I -knew- that was gonna be another 1-week character. So I rerolled. Got below average strength and took a dive in wisdom, and a dive in mana points.

I totally would've undone a couple of rerolls, had I the opportunity. I don't really even care all that much about the "word stats" so much as I care about the "number stats." I could live with average across the board, in exchange for like, 140 hps, 160 stun, and 130 naked stamina, for a human

[DustMight]

I find all these changes more than fair.
Oddly, I find nothing to bitch about.  =)

[racurtne]

While I am aware that this is a game, and it's meant for you to role-play out the character you want to play. I believe that it is possible to have lots of interesting role-play opportunities for those with a few mediocre or even poor stats. If it doesn't quite fit with the concept you had in mind, you can always transfer this conflict onto your character.

Lets say your character ends up having stats that limit that character's potential. You have the option to either fret over how your character can not reach your OOC goals for that character (or IC goals for that matter), or you can transfer this disappointment onto your character. Your character has to live with the fact that they will never be better than their friends or clan-mates at whatever it is that they do.

This can, for some characters, potentially result in a lot of opportunity for character development. Does your character find their lack of ability depressing, driving them to drink to excess or lash out at friends because of their own lack of self-confidence? Do they just enjoy being a part of a group, despite their ability to rise above their peers?
Do they pretend that they are this way when in fact they envy their friends' success? Do they push themselves harder in a desperate but futile attempt to be the best?

I also realize that not every player wants to play this kind of role, but hey, it's likely that their characters don't either.

This will probably be much better when the reroll-undo feature goes in, but you're still going to have some plain horrible stats come up.

[Synthesis]

Since the stat prioritization system went in, I've rolled all adult characters.

I haven't had a single character that didn't have 'very good' or better for the stat I prioritized.

I haven't had a single character that didn't have 'above average' or better for the second stat (and that only happened once, when I deliberately put 2nd priority on a stat that the class doesn't receive a bonus to).

I've gotten numerous exceptionals, several exceptionally goods, and a single absolutely incredible.

And now you basically get best of 2!

The stat priority system works beautifully.  I guarantee that 99% of the complaints of shitty stats are because people rolled their character too young or too old.  If people could see their stat descriptors as relative to their age group, they probably wouldn't be complaining so much.  That way, if you roll a 13-y.o.:  his strength might be 'poor' compared to a 30-y.o., but it might be exceptional compared to other 13-y.o.'s.  Sure, he might not be able to lift a shortsword properly, but I don't think the player will complain about it, because he/she knows that if they survive 17 years, he'll be a hardass pterodactyl.

[Cutthroat]

Getting stats that don't fit your character shouldn't even be possible, if you're considering age, race, and the way you organize your stats. If you want a high-strength character, pick a reasonable age, race, and put strength first.

Getting a couple of bad stats will still be possible.

Reroll undo, logically, just gives you two choices of stat sets. It is advantageous to immediately reroll a new PC and then decide whether you should go back to the first set or keep the second.

[Khorm]

I see that what I should have been doing all this time was to roll warriors with the priority on wisdom and agility, and then just do strength and endurance exercises to get AI stats across the board.

Maybe that's what people were doing.. I wouldn't be surprised.

Someone mentioned that they hadn't received shitty stats since the prioritizing system went in. I can identify with that.. if I priority agility, I get good agility.. if I prioritize strength, I get get good strength. If I secondary wisdom, I get good wisdom.

I have a feeling people abused the hell out of this, and that might be a large portion of the reason behind the change. It certainly doesn't seem like a necessary part of the game.

[Lizzie]

I only sometimes reroll, because often I'm satisfied with what I have (except those damnable number stats, the bane of my existence). However, for my next character, even if I roll 4 AI's I might reroll anyway just to see what the next set would've been had I not chosen to weep with joy over having 4 AIs. And who knows..maybe I'll end up with 4 exceptionals instead of 4 AIs, but..more stun points! And then I'll keep the lower roll with the better stun! And then I WILL WAY YOU ALL. While standing up. And walking. In a sandstorm.

C'mon how awesome is that.

[RogueGunslinger]

I like the totality of this change. I think people's problems with the change, are people's problems with the system in general. All of the people vying for the option to change stats are coming up with situations that I've never seen in game.

The equal stated people, one goes into the militia, one goes into the bardic circle. They still have the same inherent stats, sure, but I promise you, their skills will be massively different, and that skill change will probably portray what you want as good as any stat change would.

The soldier who trains for ten years and still can't use that sword... Staff have already said playability issues will be addressed.

[Riev]

Similar to my feelings during the last round of "I hate Stats Quarterly", people that say stats don't matter are the people that don't often USE those stats. I had a warrior with such low strength, that even two-handing a weapon didn't do more than a minor amount of damage. I did some arduous solo RP, running with heavy weights and logs, so that I could get bumped up enough to use a -shield- because most were too heavy. I don't think every character needs "Good" level stats, but if you're playing a ranger, and you prioritize agility and wisdom, and get above average agility and below average wisdom (when even a reroll could be just as bad) it just sucks.


I -do- however, believe that stats are most important for combat type characters. NOT TWINKS. If you are going to be a hunter, or in a hunting party, but you can't even damage a bahamet with a 2h axe, you are -useless- as a hunter and your concept is likely shattered. A Merchant with below average strength cares less than a ranger with below average strength.

[AmandaGreathouse]

And then I WILL WAY YOU ALL. While standing up. And walking. In a sandstorm.

*wet dream*

Seriously. Stun points has been about the largest thing I've had issues with myself. Of course, for some (probably most) it's likely not a problem. But for me... I am ubersocial. Arm is most of my social life. And I've knocked out a good handful of my ~25 pcs using the Way. Almost always before 3 days played.

[Synthesis]

I don't think every character needs "Good" level stats, but if you're playing a ranger, and you prioritize agility and wisdom, and get above average agility and below average wisdom (when even a reroll could be just as bad) it just sucks.

From my experience, this will only happen if you roll a 'young' character.  Like I said, I've never gotten worse than 'very good' for my primary stat on an adult character.

[valeria]

I don't really think the actual change will affect me, since I didn't even know that you could request stat bumps... much less ever actually requested one.

I do like the reroll undo coming about because of it, though.  Like Lizzie, one of my main concerns with rerolling isn't getting better stats, but getting more stun.  Anything under 100 stun is just a pain in the butt, and I might totally go back to my old stats if a reroll resulted in me having less stun. 

I've usually only rerolled before though if I had two stats below average or lower... so I've only once got worse stats from a reroll.  But one time I got worse stun points and nearly cried.