Discussion of the new stat policy

[jstorrie]

I'm much more in favour of reroll undo than stat boosts. They both serve the same purpose. Yes, stats across the board may become slightly inflated, since now everyone has the equivalent of '4d6 drop lowest', but this isn't really going to make anyone sad. People spending time grinding out logs for stat boosts, on the other hand, are often doing solo play which they wouldn't without the encouragement of the possibility of a boost, and this will get them out into the Gaj so I can steal their boots.

Staff, jstorrie approves. You can lock the thread now.

[janeshephard]

Arm was an RPI, not a H&S. That's my point. When stats become required for your "awesome roleplay", you lose.

This change doesn't give "awesome" stats or even increase the chances of it. I think you would realize this if you understand that a reroll does not guarantee better stats. All this change does is give you two sets to choose from.

[FantasyWriter]

I never asked for a stat change that I recall, but I have always advocated re-reroll.

*STAMP*

[waroth]

Kudos to the staff for this new change.  I have on several occasions wished to take a reroll back and am excited about this change.  This coupled with the stat prioritization should satisfy most anyone.

[Synthesis]

Arm was an RPI, not a H&S. That's my point. When stats become required for your "awesome roleplay", you lose.

This change doesn't give "awesome" stats or even increase the chances of it. I think you would realize this if you understand that a reroll does not guarantee better stats. All this change does is give you two sets to choose from.

Actually, yeah, it does increase the probability that you will get good stats.  How much it increases the probability is a rather complicated question, but with any random generator, the number of rolls is directly proportional to the probability of achieving maximum values.  (Unless the coders nefariously coded a probability distribution that declines or narrows with the number of attempted rolls, bwahahaha.)

[Lizzie]

How can it increase the probability of you getting good stats? You still get the same number of rolls, and more options for those rolls than I can count on my fingers, because of prioritization.

Originally, there was no reroll. You got what you got, and you were stuck with it unless you appealed to the staff to change it and they agreed with the appeal.

THEN - they allowed you to prioritize, and set the dice so that it would favor specific attributes over others, however you are also allowed to make it random, which -still- favored specific attributes but only as applicable to the guild/race/starting age template.

They ALSO allowed you to reroll, if you didn't like that first roll.

So you got prioritization, plus a reroll option.

NOW - you can do all that, but if you don't like how it ended up, you can return to the initial roll. And you -still- risk losing out on stun points if you pick that option to return.

I don't see how this is any increase in probability that you'll get good stats. It is the exact same probability as it was before.

[Synthesis]

How can it increase the probability of you getting good stats? You still get the same number of rolls, and more options for those rolls than I can count on my fingers, because of prioritization.

Originally, there was no reroll. You got what you got, and you were stuck with it unless you appealed to the staff to change it and they agreed with the appeal.

THEN - they allowed you to prioritize, and set the dice so that it would favor specific attributes over others, however you are also allowed to make it random, which -still- favored specific attributes but only as applicable to the guild/race/starting age template.

They ALSO allowed you to reroll, if you didn't like that first roll.

So you got prioritization, plus a reroll option.

NOW - you can do all that, but if you don't like how it ended up, you can return to the initial roll. And you -still- risk losing out on stun points if you pick that option to return.

I don't see how this is any increase in probability that you'll get good stats. It is the exact same probability as it was before.

No it isn't.  Go read a book on probability.

Edit:  let's see if I can do a hash job here to demonstrate.

Let's say you have 1 stat.  The probability of rolling "shitty" on this stat is .3333.  The probability of rolling "okay" on this stat is .3333.  The probability of rolling "awesome" on this stat is .3333.

Previously, you rolled once.  If you rolled "awesome," then you were good.  No need to reroll.  If you rolled "okay," you were faced with a choice:  you have a 33% chance to improve, but a 33% chance to decline.

Now, if you roll "okay," there is no choice involved, because the reroll is penalty-less.  Since you can go back to your "okay" roll if your second roll declines, you now have a .3333 probability to roll awesome, but a .6666 probability to end up with "okay."

I'm not going to describe this for multiple stats, because the math starts getting hairy with all the possible scenarios, but the principle remains the same.  This is why I didn't say how much the probability improves, only that it will.  It may be very slight, or it may not, depending on the underlying probability distributions, which obviously I don't know.

[musashi]

Wow Synth ... you sound rational 

[X-D]

I think Synth is explaining it wrong.

The stat probability per roll remains the same, but the overall PC average will go up.

He is right about the huge amount of hairy math to figure out the exact % of how much it will go up. But near as I can figure, the overall looks something like 30-50% higher. Because, before you got your roll, say you got all goods, but you decided to gamble. As he said, 3 possible outcomes, Higher, lower, the same. Before , nobody could return to the first roll if the reroll was lower so the PC stat average stayed the same, as if there was no reroll. Now you will almost always return to the higher stat set if your next roll is lower. Thereby throwing out what would have been a certain % of low stat sets and increasing the overall average by the same amount. That by itself would probly improve the ave by around 30%. But then there is a number which I do not have, so cannot do the math on. And that is the number of people that used to NOT gamble on the reroll compared to the number now, the number now will be near 100% since it is not a gamble. So the people that used to go, Hey, these stats are fine, I'm not gonna risk it will no longer do that. Instead they will check the second roll, again, if it is higher they will take it, if it is the same, they will take it, if it is lower they will go back to the first.

I figured, using my own PC count, which is too low to do much good, that my reroll would go from 30% of the time to 100% of the time. Given the above formula, the 30%(12pcs) 4 of them got lower stats on the reroll, 4 higher and 4 the same. So, the 4 that got lower get switched to the same, the other 24, again, 30% are gonna go higher then they had but nobody will go lower....
If the ave stats was ave with the old method then with the new one the ave would go up to good with this method.

Make sense?

Now apply that to the entire game.

[Synthesis]

I think Synth is explaining it wrong.

The stat probability per roll remains the same, but the overall PC average will go up.

Sure, probability per roll doesn't change, because the underlying distribution is presumably constant.  But since you get 2 rolls and the pick, it will tend to increase stats across the game.

I suspect this holds most true for primary/secondary prioritizations, but it doesn't preclude someone from say, rejecting exceptional/good/below/poor in favor of very good/good/average/average.

(And to be fair:  the old reroll system tended to inflate stats as well, since after several characters it was pretty easy to guess when your roll was actually "bad," and thus had a high probability of improving on reroll.  The new system actually levels the playing field for newbies, because they don't have to go through numerous roll/reroll cycles to develop a dataset from which to guesstimate the relative probability of improving vs. declining.)

[evil_erdlu]

How may probability remain the same?

Let's say there are X stat quantifications and Y of them are considered good. With the new change, I don't think anyone would decide not to reroll anyway, as you can take it back with barely a penalty - only stun/hp reroll? -

So in past, you had y/x chance to have a good stat for each individual stat. Now you have y/x + y/x = 2y/x, for every individual stat, but not cumulatively. (You reroll, two stats get better and two get much worse. The reroll hasn't overally increased your character's uberness, you reroll back or not.)

Of course, I won't bother to expand it to four stats. I'm lazy and it will require extensive checks about reroll failures. But it is clear that there is going to be a higher chance of having better stats.

Back to the topic? I never asked for stat increases, but it is because I am always incredibly lucky when it comes to stat rolls. I always had at least one 'exceptional' in my stats and I only had one 'below average' in an unimportant stat, never had anything below. Still I believe, there must be a chance given to very very long living characters.

Say, your warrior became a PC at the age of 13. He had warriorly training till the age of 30 and you had your character reach to that age actively - always doing warriorly stuff and logging in regularly - not logging in on and off like I'm forced to do. There should be a raise in your strength, agility and maybe endurance in addition to the normal raises on birthdays.

Just a thought...

[MarshallDFX]

As somebody who just finished a course in statistical probability:

I'm not going to bother.

Like I didn't bother with most of the course.  Thus I got 60%.

[spawnloser]

Having the chance to reroll and undo it gives you a choice and thus better chances to have better stats.  This obviates the need for stat boosts.  I'm fine with this for the future.

However... I do see the undo as a fix for future characters, but what about characters made without the option to undo the reroll?  These people/characters either suffered through a bad reroll or didn't take a risk that is now risk-free to take.  These people don't get stat boosts and didn't get the increased chances at better/more-appropriate stats.  This I'm not so kosher about.

[path]

I remember back in the day sometimes wishing up to get another reroll. Sometimes I would tell them it was my birthday. Sometimes that would work.

I've never apped for a stat change, but I always liked the idea that I could. I don't feel like the same players apping for stat increases again and again over time is unfair, any more than Gim playing really sexy lady characters who tend to get their way is unfair. Takes all sorts. We need the players who like to play highly motivated PCs just like we need the players that really only ever want to socialize.

So, my disappointment is two fold. One, I regret the loss of opportunity, one more chip in the idea that our characters, should we invest the time and effort, could become nearly anything. Two, the slight crush of equalization across the board.

I don't like reroll undo as a fix. Don't get me wrong here, I'll use it. But it does raise the bar. PCs across the board will now all have slightly better stats.

[Cavaticus]

The point of this is that the combination of rerolling + reroll undo + stat prioritization is that it should be EXTREMELY unlikely that you will ever roll a character who is not in line with your concept. As long as your concept is reasonable. If your concept is, "the extremely buff, extremely fast and also really really smart guy," then that may not happen. If your concept is "the absolutely incredibly strong guy," and you can't play your PC without an AI strength, you may be disappointed.

If your concept is to have a guy who is very strong and reasonably smart, then you should be able to do that. Just about every single time.

[RogueGunslinger]

I remember back in the day sometimes wishing up to get another reroll. Sometimes I would tell them it was my birthday. Sometimes that would work.

... lol wtf. That would never happen for me.  

Nesaliin: Hey guys, it's Path's B-day again!!

Sanaevn: Oh sweet! let's get ready for her surprise guyz!

Salhoonsh: So excited!

Nesaliin: Alright, I'm teleporting her to the room, lets all meet her there.

...

Code Select Expand

A Highly Festive-Looking Gladiator and the Gaj Tavern -- Main Room [NES Quit]
  This common room composes the bulk of the Gladiator and the Gaj
Tavern, a bustling establishment founded in the Year of Suk-Krath's
Defiance of the 19th age.  A cacophony of sounds fills the inn, from the
busy murmur of the many merchants that frequent the location to the
howling of the crowd, greeting the arriving news of the latest arena
fight, to the drunken whine of the hundreds of commonfolk that have made
the place famous.  Stout wooden beams support the panelled roof of the
room, each bearing many drawings carved by the patrons of the tavern.
An agafari-wood bar dominates the western side of the room, the shelves
behind it supporting the weight of many alcoholic beverages.  Wood and
stone tables with matching chairs are strewn all over the chamber in
clusters as to allow waiters and waitresses to circulate with ease.  A
raised platform has been erected in the northeastern corner for the
messengers and hawkers hired by the establishment that relay the latest
news from the arena.  
  Every inch of wall and floor is covered in colorful confetti. A large banner
exclaiming; "Happy Birthday Path!" hangs over the length of the entire room.
Most of the population is wearing some form of party-hat or blowing on some
sort of annoying noise-makers. Basically everyone having a rocking good time.
A wall here is designated as a message board.
Many large casks are here, tapped and ready to go.
The Highlord Tektolnes is sitting at a long, scarred bar of agafari wood.
The Sandlord is sitting at a long, scarred bar of agafari wood.
The Sun-King Muk Utep is sitting at a long, scarred bar of agafari wood.
A dark-skinned human barkeep stands behind the bar, looking exhausted.
The lean, sun-reddened woman weassr a funny-looking party hat in style here.
The hairy, dark-skinned woman decorates the room with streamers here.
The towering, golden-haired half-giant is here singing happy-birthday to herself.

The tall, muscular man appears in a wisp of smoke.
The tall, muscular man says, tracing a hand down your soft skin with his hand, in sirihish:
      "Ah, but Malik. I do love you! I have always loved you and always will."

The Sun-King Muk Utep looks up at the tall muscular man.

The Sandlord looks up at the tall muscular man.

The Highlord Tektolnes looks up at the tall muscular man.

The tall, muscular man blinks.

The tall, muscular man OOC's:
                  "Oh... You guys realize my birthdays -tomorrow- right?"

Nesaliin sends the tall, muscular man:
       "Were you just using "yours" and "his" in an emote? So not cool."


*Staff names were obscured to protect their identity.
**Yes I know Path is a girl.

[mansa]

I remember the wishing up for a reroll.

I swear I still am scared each time I wish up.

[Aaron Goulet]

I remember the wishing up for a reroll.

I swear I still am scared each time I wish up.

No matter what I wish up for, I always feel like I'm inconveniencing someone, which I probably am.

[path]

I remember back in the day sometimes wishing up to get another reroll. Sometimes I would tell them it was my birthday. Sometimes that would work.

... lol wtf. That would never happen for me.  

Nesaliin: Hey guys, it's Path's B-day again!!

Sanaevn: Oh sweet! let's get ready for her surprise guyz!

Salhoonsh: So excited!

Nesaliin: Alright, I'm teleporting her to the room, lets all meet her there.

...

Code Select Expand

A Highly Festive-Looking Gladiator and the Gaj Tavern -- Main Room [NES Quit]
  This common room composes the bulk of the Gladiator and the Gaj
Tavern, a bustling establishment founded in the Year of Suk-Krath's
Defiance of the 19th age.  A cacophony of sounds fills the inn, from the
busy murmur of the many merchants that frequent the location to the
howling of the crowd, greeting the arriving news of the latest arena
fight, to the drunken whine of the hundreds of commonfolk that have made
the place famous.  Stout wooden beams support the panelled roof of the
room, each bearing many drawings carved by the patrons of the tavern.
An agafari-wood bar dominates the western side of the room, the shelves
behind it supporting the weight of many alcoholic beverages.  Wood and
stone tables with matching chairs are strewn all over the chamber in
clusters as to allow waiters and waitresses to circulate with ease.  A
raised platform has been erected in the northeastern corner for the
messengers and hawkers hired by the establishment that relay the latest
news from the arena.  
  Every inch of wall and floor is covered in colorful confetti. A large banner
exclaiming; "Happy Birthday Path!" hangs over the length of the entire room.
Most of the population is wearing some form of party-hat or blowing on some
sort of annoying noise-makers. Basically everyone having a rocking good time.
A wall here is designated as a message board.
Many large casks are here, tapped and ready to go.
The Highlord Tektolnes is sitting at a long, scarred bar of agafari wood.
The Sandlord is sitting at a long, scarred bar of agafari wood.
The Sun-King Muk Utep is sitting at a long, scarred bar of agafari wood.
A dark-skinned human barkeep stands behind the bar, looking exhausted.
The lean, sun-reddened woman weassr a funny-looking party hat in style here.
The hairy, dark-skinned woman decorates the room with streamers here.
The towering, golden-haired half-giant is here singing happy-birthday to herself.

The tall, muscular man appears in a wisp of smoke.
The tall, muscular man says, tracing a hand down your soft skin with his hand, in sirihish:
      "Ah, but Malik. I do love you! I have always loved you and always will."

The Sun-King Muk Utep looks up at the tall muscular man.

The Sandlord looks up at the tall muscular man.

The Highlord Tektolnes looks up at the tall muscular man.

The tall, muscular man blinks.

The tall, muscular man OOC's:
                  "Oh... You guys realize my birthdays -tomorrow- right?"

Nesaliin sends the tall, muscular man:
       "Were you just using "yours" and "his" in an emote? So not cool."


*Staff names were obscured to protect their identity.
**Yes I know Path is a girl.

Favorite... post... ever. That was like the best birthday I ever had, and you made it up in your head.

[Morrolan]

I remember the wishing up for a reroll.

I swear I still am scared each time I wish up.

No matter what I wish up for, I always feel like I'm inconveniencing someone, which I probably am.

When we wish up, we are asking for someone's attention.  The staff have agreed to be there to respond, within limits and guidelines.

BEST PRACTICE: Be Scrupulously Polite.  They're volunteers.

Staff are Semi-professional GM's.  They are "the referees of this sport."  Yes, you can kick sand on their shoes.  And they can kick you out of the game.

But we're all here for the love of the game.

Morrolan

[Niamh]

It's a little disenheartening that people will blow up and complain about how staff keeps doing everything in their power to take things away, or make things more difficult, claiming that players never have any say-so in anything.  It seems as though some of the biggest complainers are hard pressed to show any gratitude or appreciation for the things that staff does to improve things, help out people (and that includes our regular duties as staff such as reimbursements or getting clanned people set up accordingly) even when player feedback is specifically requested for those changes.

Having said that, I am locking this thread.  It has served its purpose.