Re: Stat Boosts.

[Good Gortok]

We could be free of this whole dissent over stats that has plagued the community since forever if stats were made less random and less influential to a character's power. It is currently possible for one character to have more than double the total stat values of another character of the same race, guild and age, and I find it grotesque.

[X-D]

Why, never seen anybody IRL that could lift twice as much as you or run twice as fast or twice as far or five times as smart?

[Good Gortok]

That is the most ridiculous and unintelligent argument ever to crop up in every single one of the bi-weekly discussions of how poorly stats are represented in this game. We play characters, characters that we design and affect through choices throughout the game. To leave this one aspect of it up to pure chance is idiotic. If Amos should be able to lift twice as much as Malik, run twice as fast, be twice as smart and twice as healthy, it should be because the character was designed for it*, with the checks and balances that should be in place for it to be reasonable within the premises of the game. Not because of dice.

*and outside of special circumstances, it should not be possible to just design a character who is flat out twice as stat-heavy as another of the same general type. Two human characters where one has been randomly granted an aggregate stat total more than twice that of the other is just stupid.

[Cerelum]

That is the most ridiculous and unintelligent argument ever to crop up in every single one of the bi-weekly discussions of how poorly stats are represented in this game. We play characters, characters that we design and affect through choices throughout the game. To leave this one aspect of it up to pure chance is idiotic. If Amos should be able to lift twice as much as Malik, run twice as fast, be twice as smart and twice as healthy, it should be because the character was designed for it*, with the checks and balances that should be in place for it to be reasonable within the premises of the game. Not because of dice.

*and outside of special circumstances, it should not be possible to just design a character who is flat out twice as stat-heavy as another of the same general type. Two human characters where one has been randomly granted an aggregate stat total more than twice that of the other is just stupid.

You are assuming the game is made to be fair.  It is not.

[Niamh]

Not everyone is created equal.  Just like in real life, some people are strong, some are puny.  Some people are intelligent, some are as dumb as a box of rocks.  And just like in real life, not everyone "wins".  Armageddon is not about winning.  It's about roleplaying out the lives of our PCs.  If you let stats rule your game, then of course they'll ruin some PCs when they don't turn out as good as they could be.

[Thunderboots]

I don't think that's the main point, it would be easy if you could base your characters description and guild ect around stats, and I know the guild and probably size, weight ect make some difference, but it doesn't cut out the fact that you can occationally make a really big muscular character who has something like poor strength. It's a hard problem to solve, since if stats WERE based around how you made your character then the game would probably end up with alot of people with stupidly high strength and other stats, but there's definitely a problem with the way stats work - and making them less changeable certainly won't solve the problem.

[Spoon]

I think you can easily shape a character with stat priorities and a re-roll, and now an undo so people who succumb to gambling easily don't fuck up their PC. I you want a strong PC, then you should be happy with 'good' or higher strength in my opinion. That indicates a strong person. AI is the full potential for the race, not the individual. Hercules gets AI strength, burly joe the stonemason gets very good. One of the things I like about stats is how extreme they get: being exceptional in an area is exactly that. I think people are maybe getting to hung up on numbers without even realising it. They want 18 strength otherwise they won't make a good warrior, something which isn't true at all in this game. I like random stats. If we had a point allocating system pretty soon we'd end up with clones all over the place.

[Morrolan]

I think this is a good solution that will free up some of the staff's time, taking away something that looks, even from here, to be a boring chore that affects only one player at a time.

Personally, I've requested stat boosts before, but I can see how they would be difficult to manage from a staff perspective.  The reroll undo option is much cleaner to administrate.

Morrolan

[My 2 sids]

Ironically, I wouldn't care about the change unless the rational was what Cerelum implied.  It's always a bad idea to let a few (instead of many) influence policy.  If a few people are taking advantage the system -- than the fair thing is to deal with them (not make some kind of blanket punishment)

As for the actual change -- I think it will discourage good solo roll-play and may end a few PCs, but also free up IMM's time.

[janeshephard]

Not everyone is created equal.  Just like in real life, some people are strong, some are puny.  Some people are intelligent, some are as dumb as a box of rocks.  And just like in real life, not everyone "wins".  Armageddon is not about winning.  It's about roleplaying out the lives of our PCs.  If you let stats rule your game, then of course they'll ruin some PCs when they don't turn out as good as they could be.

No one is really arguing this. If anything people are upset that they create a big dumb thug and wind up with a dumb wimp.

[RogueGunslinger]

That really shouldn't happen, with stat prioritization, and aging code. I say the first stat prioritized has about a 70% chance of being good or better. I've personally, out of many, many characters, have never gotten a weak character when I prioritized strength, or a dumb one when I prioritized wisdom, etc.

[Riev]

For me, I have never really liked trying to apply for wisdom increases myself (even though most of my characters really need it). However, I feel that even the skinniest, highest metabolism people can eventually eat enough meat protein and lift enough heavy things that they could increase their strength marginally.

Aging code may be the answer, but I had a character live for (almost?) 10 IC years and never saw a stat go up. I have a theory on when it WOULD go up, but waiting for the aging code seems to take forever.

[Sephiroto]

If Amos should be able to lift twice as much as Malik, run twice as fast, be twice as smart and twice as healthy, it should be because the character was designed for it*, with the checks and balances that should be in place for it to be reasonable within the premises of the game. Not because of dice.

I take it you've never played D&D.

I'm glad there was a reroll undo added.  I've never had a successful stat boost, even when a PC had a poor stat.  So, undoing a reroll is an added bonus to me.  Thanks.

[mansa]

Automation is awesome!
Code is impervious to favourtism.

[Akoto]

Personally, I'm thrilled about the option of being able to undo a reroll. It sucks when you create an awesome concept which relies upon stats to some degree (those do exist), only to have a bad roll, and an even worse reroll. At least the former might be salvageable without too much misery.

I wish this had been around for my current character!

[jhunter]

Not everyone is created equal.  Just like in real life, some people are strong, some are puny.  Some people are intelligent, some are as dumb as a box of rocks.  And just like in real life, not everyone "wins".  Armageddon is not about winning.  It's about roleplaying out the lives of our PCs.  If you let stats rule your game, then of course they'll ruin some PCs when they don't turn out as good as they could be.

No one is really arguing this. If anything people are upset that they create a big dumb thug and wind up with a dumb wimp.

You rarely see anyone argue when they created a big dumb thug and end up with a big smart thug. People are only bitching about it when it isn't advantageous.

[Ampere]

While unfortunate, it is as I often say, not my game.  However, it would have been nice had there been a grace period offered for those of us who've been storing our logs prior to the announcement.

Ah well.

[jmordetsky]

On a total tangent, I sort of like the change, but only because I could never actually be bothered emote training and logging it. Ick, how droll...

Oh that and an undo reroll is AWESOME.

It would be interesting however if attributes were treated like very slow moving skills effected by certain actions and time capped like skills. Moving outdoors with heavy encumbrance had a percent chance to bump strength by .01 with a .2 cap per IC year or something like that. That way over the course 2-3 years you could feasibly get stronger.  Draining stamina to 1/10 similar effect.  (I can't think of anything for wisdom and agility.)

You could imagine this being terribly abused by every bynner wearing rock filled backpacks (um - wait don't they already do this?) and sprinting everyday. But with a high enough time caps (total time alive caps, not play time caps), it would probably be fine.


***Edited cuz im dum and smelly

[jmordetsky]

That really shouldn't happen, with stat prioritization, and aging code. I say the first stat prioritized has about a 70% chance of being good or better. I've personally, out of many, many characters, have never gotten a weak character when I prioritized strength, or a dumb one when I prioritized wisdom, etc.

Seconded. I haven't had a problem with this.

[Myrdryn]

What if stats were generated during character generation?  That would remove the problem of having stats that didn't fit a character concept.

[Pheonix]

What if stats were generated during character generation?  That would remove the problem of having stats that didn't fit a character concept.

My initial reaction to this is positive, but I can think of so many ways people would try and take advantage after knowing their stats...

It would no longer be about players playing their concept, but playing what they roll.

[Cutthroat]

What if stats were generated during character generation?  That would remove the problem of having stats that didn't fit a character concept.

SoI currently does this with its new character generation process, actually. There, the roll stays the same with the chosen role and area even if you try to make a new character before completing the app process. I imagine that a roll could be saved for each attempt for every guild, so if I make an assassin with str/end/agi/wis then see my stats and quit out before I write my description, if I try to make another assassin with str/end/agi/wis I'll just get the same roll back.

[Fathi]

My initial reaction to this is positive, but I can think of so many ways people would try and take advantage after knowing their stats...

Such as?

I'm not being sarcastic - I'm just curious what specific downsides you're predicting.

[crackerjack]

What if stats were generated during character generation?  That would remove the problem of having stats that didn't fit a character concept.

I generated a poll with a simple 'yes' or 'no' answer for this question, here: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,37743.0.html

I think this would be a great idea and would be curious on how a vote would turn out.

[Synthesis]

My initial reaction to this is positive, but I can think of so many ways people would try and take advantage after knowing their stats...

Such as?

I'm not being sarcastic - I'm just curious what specific downsides you're predicting.

Off the top of my head:

1.  Strong positive correlation of "my character is a heartless, merciless n00bkiller" backgrounds with monster truck stats.

2.  Strong positive correlation of "my character doesn't give a fuck and does crrrrrazy wild things!" with shitty stats.

For example, every time you roll stats where you don't get "very good" or better for your primary, you could just make a background that states "ARR, I'm a silt pirate" and go out and be a silt pirate, with predictable results; or a background that states "I hate elves and always attack them on sight," again, with predictable results.  While this isn't much different than intentionally suiciding a character with shitty stats, the problem is that it allows a modicum of justification, since the death in question wouldn't technically be a violation of the rules (at least, not the rules governing in-character behavior).

That being said, I am marginally in favor of the proposal, because control over the chargen process is more important to me than worrying about what munchkins are up to.