Re: Stat Boosts.

[Nyr]

This is already in the works for Arm 2 and will not be done for Arm 1 at this time.

[janeshephard]

My initial reaction to this is positive, but I can think of so many ways people would try and take advantage after knowing their stats...

Such as?

I'm not being sarcastic - I'm just curious what specific downsides you're predicting.

There's a very simple one. Disconnect if you have bad stats and go back to chargen again after.

Seriously, the only fix for this is a point system with some randomness introduced by weighting.

[Synthesis]

Man, I hate getting pagerolled.

[RogueGunslinger]

My initial reaction to this is positive, but I can think of so many ways people would try and take advantage after knowing their stats...

Such as?

I'm not being sarcastic - I'm just curious what specific downsides you're predicting.

Off the top of my head:

1.  Strong positive correlation of "my character is a heartless, merciless n00bkiller" backgrounds with monster truck stats.

2.  Strong positive correlation of "my character doesn't give a fuck and does crrrrrazy wild things!" with shitty stats.

For example, every time you roll stats where you don't get "very good" or better for your primary, you could just make a background that states "ARR, I'm a silt pirate" and go out and be a silt pirate, with predictable results; or a background that states "I hate elves and always attack them on sight," again, with predictable results.  While this isn't much different than intentionally suiciding a character with shitty stats, the problem is that it allows a modicum of justification, since the death in question wouldn't technically be a violation of the rules (at least, not the rules governing in-character behavior).

That being said, I am marginally in favor of the proposal, because control over the chargen process is more important to me than worrying about what munchkins are up to.

[MarshallDFX]

This is already in the works for Arm 2 and will not be done for Arm 1 at this time.

Can I ask what this is referring to?  Is it this?

What if stats were generated during character generation?  That would remove the problem of having stats that didn't fit a character concept.

[Nyr]

Yes, sorry.  I meant to quote it so that it would be attributed correctly in context.

edit:  and it would be a lot more robust than just "rolling stats in advance."

[MarshallDFX]

The way I see it working alright:

Select height, weight, guild, subguild, and race.  Write a basic background.
You are now committed to playing this setup.  You must complete this application before you can play.
Stat roll.
Check to see if you are an absolutely behemothly strong person.
Write description, and have the option make additions only to your background.

Submit.

This is just an idea to try and balance Synthesis' points with the "stats don't fit concept" problem.

Also just like to point out that Niamh locked the wrong thread.  The only real imm-bashing I found actually occured in this one.  The other one seemed pretty tame.

Edit to note:  I guess this doesn't change the fact that somebody could still add "ARR I'm a silt pirate who kills elves on sight!" when they get AI strength, but I think that this is something staff would have to moniter.  It would be fairly clear if somebody went form being Anxious Andy in their pre-stat background to Mass-murderer in their post-stat.

[number13]

What if stats were generated during character generation?  That would remove the problem of having stats that didn't fit a character concept.

It could be discouraging to see a row of shitty stats, to the point where it could be the tipping point between apping a character or deciding otherwise.  And this:

1.  Strong positive correlation of "my character is a heartless, merciless n00bkiller" backgrounds with monster truck stats.

2.  Strong positive correlation of "my character doesn't give a fuck and does crrrrrazy wild things!" with shitty stats.

It would be better to go for some kind of stat obfuscation with a simple point buy system, so that characters appear roughly equal. Or go for a full out point-buy system, with merits and flaws to balance/compensate characters with very high or very low stats.

[LoD]

I would probably encourage a system like this:

1. Everyone begins with their stats at poor at character generation.
2. Everyone is granted a minimum number of points to distribute at character generation in line with their concept.
3. Everyone is granted a small, and random, number of additional points after entering the game to further distribute immediately or whenever they so chose to reflect character growth/potential. (e.g. A character could immediately assign their current attributes, or save them to apply to their attributes at a later date.)

This type of solution would accomplish many of the things people currently dislike:

1. You would be able to tailor your character's skills fairly well to a particular character concept at character generation.
2. Everyone would share the same minimum values, so the Staff could better control the low/high end of the spectrum.
3. There would still be some randomness/excitement about stats that you wouldn't see until you actually entered the game, which would discourage people from being disappointed in their stats at generation.
4. This gives people even more control over how their characters come out, while also being able to keep it within appropriate boundaries. 

The chance of getting an absolutely incredible without being forced to accept some below average stats might still require a high number of random points to assign, whereas, someone could, if they wanted, make some one-dimensional freak if they wanted to accept penalties in other areas.

I further believe that this style of stat allocation would need to be paired with a completely revised system of how those stats tie into various skills and abilities.  Bonuses for each stat should be fairly even across the board, and players should be forced to carefully consider the pros and cons to min/maxing their abilities.  Gone should be the days were an extremely high strength immediately trumps experience, or has such a profound impact upon combat that it trivializes the other choices.

-LoD

[path]

LoD's is the first idea I've heard that I like.

[Aaron Goulet]

I would probably encourage a system like this:

1. Everyone begins with their stats at poor at character generation.
2. Everyone is granted a minimum number of points to distribute at character generation in line with their concept.
3. Everyone is granted a small, and random, number of additional points after entering the game to further distribute immediately or whenever they so chose to reflect character growth/potential. (e.g. A character could immediately assign their current attributes, or save them to apply to their attributes at a later date.)

I've always believed that an allocation-based system would be best, but I'm not too fond of point #3, simply because there are people who will feel cheated if they don't get as many points for the random roll as someone else might.

What this does, in the end, is give full control over a character's statistics to the player.  The only unrealistic concepts are the ones that involve a character being awesome at everything (and then, there's always special applications).

A static number of points that is consistent for all characters leaves little room to complain;  the choice is up to you whether your character has two absolutely incredible stats and has two poor/below average ones, or whether he or she is slightly above average across the board.   (Keep in mind that this is just an example to demonstrate a concept, so don't bother picking it apart.  The amount of points issued could be adjusted by the staff for maximum fairness.)

Also, if everyone gets the same amount of points, the problem of suiciding goes away, since the random factors are removed entirely.  It's all player choice.

[Twilight]

I've never like point allocation systems.  I like it where some characters are exceptional, and some are blah.  Over time, such systems are fair to everyone, although not obviously for any particular character.  When everyone has to make the same choices it makes it so...drab.

[spawnloser]

The one thing point allocation systems have is that people all start on even ground.  I like that, actually.  The biggest problem is min-max, however.  Both systems have pluses and minuses to them.

I'm fine with the system as it is now (edit to add that by this I mean the way it will be), but like I said in the other thread on this topic, I'm disappointed that old characters which never got the chance to reroll/undo are being forbidden to have stat boosts along with the characters that get a reroll/undo.  I would be happiest if all old characters got this chance too, if desired.

[RogueGunslinger]

This seemed more like a quick-fix that staff didn't foresee much reaction from, and when they got that reaction, they had to toss out the Reroll undo just to appease people.

Once again, this was a strange decision.

[LoD]

I've never like point allocation systems.  I like it where some characters are exceptional, and some are blah.  Over time, such systems are fair to everyone, although not obviously for any particular character.  When everyone has to make the same choices it makes it so...drab.

This is why I advocated the combination of a static point-system couple with a dynamic, and random, point system so that you get the best of both worlds.  What you really do is create a more stable environment for people to create their characters.  They have more initial control in making their characters adequately average, or lopsidedly-exceptional.  The random points would then provide players with a little extra something to look forward to and potentially give them access to a a more exceptional character than the others.

I, too, think a completely static point-system would be somewhat boring.  The randomness, for me, does make the world seem a little more exciting and unpredictable, where people can be superior/inferior to their peers.  It's also harder to pinpoint a mix/max build when people have a random number of points compared to the static ones.  It also gives people something to look forward to when making a new character.  The stat-generating process is always one of the first exciting moments of the game, and I like that factor.

I understand that some of us will just have to agree to disagree as to whether equal or random stats is better/more fun, but I think we can agree that this type of system would offer a nice compromise.  More control, less disappointment, and, yet, still some room for the hand of fate to give your character an exciting boost.

-LoD

[Tzurahro]

This seemed more like a quick-fix that staff didn't foresee much reaction from, and when they got that reaction, they had to toss out the Reroll undo just to appease people.

Once again, this was a strange decision.

Actually, it went about how we expected it to.  The "reroll undo" option had been inconclusively discussed staff-side previously, but Mansa's post just brought it to the fore again, and the matter was finally decided.  Morgenes was just lightning fast on implementation is all.

[RogueGunslinger]

This seemed more like a quick-fix that staff didn't foresee much reaction from, and when they got that reaction, they had to toss out the Reroll undo just to appease people.

Once again, this was a strange decision.

Actually, it went about how we expected it to.  The "reroll undo" option had been inconclusively discussed staff-side previously, but Mansa's post just brought it to the fore again, and the matter was finally decided.  Morgenes was just lightning fast on implementation is all.

Ah. My view-point is limited, of course. Morgenes is pretty impressive.

[mansa]

"Reroll undo" was also something I've mentioned in the past before, too.
Like 2 years ago or something.

Maybe it was someone else who brought it up.  I just remembered it.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I did.

Do I think it adds anything to the game? Not really. Do I think it takes away from the game? A little. That said, I can't recall having ever asked for a stat boost, so I'm fairly unaffected by this. I would like to see mansa's undo reroll option, though.

Actually. And am glad to see it went in.

YAY and Thank you, Morgenes.