Guild/Subguild skills

[Qzzrbl]

It's generally harmless, yet very useful information that Syn posted and had edited that's pretty much the root of this problem....

Those were some pretty important things to know if you were gonna go after a specific role-- especially if you're a new player.

But many of us will have to create a character to find it out for ourselves.

[RogueGunslinger]

A couple characters at least, to find out that info. It's stupid.

[Sephiroto]

I really chuckle inside at the needless ambiguity that is given by the staff sometimes regarding skills and other helpfiles.  This information isn't secret.  It is even on the advice of veteran players and  staff members that we pick guilds and subguilds that have skills congruent with the concepts that we want to play.  We don't play "warriors" or "pickpockets", we play a character with given skills and stats.  For that reason, it seems that knowing exactly what skills that regular guilds and subguilds start with is in line with the following through of the advice that players and staff so regularly suggest.  Why leave room for confusion?  Evidently the confusion is there if this discussion has been onging throughout the years.

The issue here is two sided.  Players: hold tight, a new game is coming and the skill system should be more robust.  I -assume- we'll be able to create to better detail a character with skills that we want, rather than stock guilds.
Staff: Perhaps you could consider being a bit less ambiguous.  Seriously, why does it matter if everyone knows the starting skills of each class?  Wouldn't that help us all write concepts and alleviate some confusion?

"I mean, come on..."  -Timmy: South Park

[AmandaGreathouse]

Yeah I learned something about a subguild, a skill that I thought (and was specified on the GDB by both staff and players)..was reserved for one specific main guild.

Had I known that this subguild came with this skill, I would have picked entirely different combinations of guild/subguild for quite a few of my previous characters. I also would -not- have stored one of them.

Been on this road before. I actually special apped a merchant breed with that ability over a year ago, not knowing that I could get it from a subguild. I was told I was asking for skills just to have skills.

Well, yes, if I'd known that subguild had the ability, I could see that. But since I didn't, I wasted a special app on it. And it doesn't even begin to allude to it in its help file.

[Nyr]

Just so we're clear, you can submit a request if you feel a helpfile for a guild or subguild doesn't give the information it should about starting skills.

This is pretty much how I feel about this, as well:

A sentence such as, "Ranger skills involve hunting persons or animals, exceptional powers of observation, a strong aptitude for archery, and some moderate skill with weapons." conveys the factual information wrapped in language that keeps it role-oriented.

Replacing the sentence with, "Rangers skills involve rope-jumping, juggling, hobbit guarding, and broken_sword_fighting." strips it down to the factual information only and, for me, detracts from the efforts we make elsewhere in the game to maintain an atmosphere of role-playing and not skill-mongering.

If anything gets added, it'll probably get added as displayed in the first example, not as displayed in the second example.

[RogueGunslinger]

....Really?

I was under the assumption that there were many skills that some guilds/subguilds get that isn't in the documentation.

That was sort of the whole point of this thread.

[Nyr]

It's probably a lot more like a skill here or there that isn't mentioned in a guild/subguild helpfile somehow.

[Cerelum]

I really get irritated not with the main guilds but with the subguilds.  For instance my current character picked something thinking it would be a TON more useful than it currently is and is now HATING the fact he is subguild X.

I am totally for you guys either:

A. Rewriting the helpfiles of subguilds to include (Through rpish silly sentances or straight mention) that my subguild choice will get underwater basketweaving and value or whatever.

B. Or allow people to switch their subguild after screwing up a selection instead of having to store their character or live with their hatred of their subguild.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Just so we're clear, you can submit a request if you feel a helpfile for a guild or subguild doesn't give the information it should about starting skills.

I hope using 'suggestion or idea' under GDB is acceptable. I couldn't think of a better heading to put it under. But it's been sent.

And, just for the record to everyone in GDB-Land, since it seems like there's been a lot of snipping and hurt feelings/egos/pride on the GDB of late: However snippy my previous post may have come off, it wasn't meant to be so, but rather simply a strong agreement with the post it quoted.

[mansa]

This feels like a non-issue, when you play for the roleplay.

This is an issue when your used to playing for the H&S action.

I fully believe that anyone trying to play a hack and slash game has left the MUD games and moved on to MMORPGs.  Those people who would mostly benefit from these things don't play our game anymore.
Our game doesn't attract those people.  Why should we make limitations in our game specifically to create a tone in our game to hamper the people who don't play.

Its like allowing "lives" in a game like Mario.  Not needed anymore.  Nobody plays with quarters anymore.

[Nyr]

I hope using 'suggestion or idea' under GDB is acceptable. I couldn't think of a better heading to put it under. But it's been sent.

That works.

[RogueGunslinger]

This feels like a non-issue, when you play for the roleplay.

This is an issue when your used to playing for the H&S action.

I fully believe that anyone trying to play a hack and slash game has left the MUD games and moved on to MMORPGs.  Those people who would mostly benefit from these things don't play our game anymore.
Our game doesn't attract those people.  Why should we make limitations in our game specifically to create a tone in our game to hamper the people who don't play.

Its like allowing "lives" in a game like Mario.  Not needed anymore.  Nobody plays with quarters anymore.

Well regardless of how you feel. This is an issue for people who enjoy roleplay over the h/s experiance too. So try again.

Even if this was for people who enjoy the coded aspects of play over the roleplaying.. Who cares? Are they not people playing this game for enjoyment too? Or do you think that the game should only cater to those of a certain playstyle.

I fully believe that anyone trying to play a hack and slash game has left the MUD games and moved on to MMORPGs.  Those people who would mostly benefit from these things don't play our game anymore.

Clearly this isn't the issue, considering we who care do actually play the game. Come on now, you're not even sticking to the topic at hand, and once again, I'd like to express, in bold and capitals: THE CHANGE WE ARE PROPOSING AFFECTS NOBODY EXCEPT THOSE WHO FIND AN ISSUE WITH THIS PROBLEM. WHAT'S THE DEAL!?

[Rhyden]

I'm surprised players have gotten so heated up over this. To me, it feels like it isn't really an issue. I couldn't care less if there was a blurb of which skills subguilds get or not. It seems the subguild docs do a pretty good job at telling you which starting skills you'll get already. Besides, -not knowing- is half the fun! Isn't it? I cherished my newbie days solely because there was so much I didn't know. Now I'm a cranky old vet knowing more than I probably should, and the things I look most forwards to are those things that are unknown to me.

[X-D]

I've never had a problem getting a subguild change if it was very early in the life of the PC.

[Cutthroat]

This isn't about getting a coded advantage. It's about clarity. It is, indeed, intended to make RP easier.

The staff already said they'll make the skills of each guild and subguild clearer in their descriptions so that the player knows how their role will fit with their guild/sub. This has less to do with codedly playing a character and more to do with properly creating a character in order to play the desired role.

I put in a request through "Website > Bug / Typo / Idea" for the only issue I could think of with any of the guild/sub descriptions.

[Myrdryn]

THE CHANGE WE ARE PROPOSING AFFECTS NOBODY EXCEPT THOSE WHO FIND AN ISSUE WITH THIS PROBLEM. WHAT'S THE DEAL!?

What about new impressionable players?  Wouldn't listing skills detract from the roleplay experience from the very beginning?

[Nyr]

I've never had a problem getting a subguild change if it was very early in the life of the PC.

There's this.  If you miss a subguild for whatever reason, it can be changed.  It's annoying as hell, and we probably won't do it if you screw it up a bunch, but it can be done.

Also, those who find an issue with the problem should put in a request about it so that the problem is not an issue anymore.  A couple have done so so far.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Not only done so but received a very nicely worded and swift response.

Thank you very much for that, Nyr.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm surprised players have gotten so heated up over this. To me, it feels like it isn't really an issue. I couldn't care less if there was a blurb of which skills subguilds get or not. It seems the subguild docs do a pretty good job at telling you which starting skills you'll get already. Besides, -not knowing- is half the fun! Isn't it? I cherished my newbie days solely because there was so much I didn't know. Now I'm a cranky old vet knowing more than I probably should, and the things I look most forwards to are those things that are unknown to me.

The reason I am personally heated is because everyone either thinks this isn't an issue, or doesn't care. Those of us who do think it's an issue, are constantly being condescended by others into believing that everything is fine, and we're the ones who are stupid/inexperienced/not playing right.

If this wasn't an issue people wouldn't take issue with it, for Christ sake.

I've never had a problem getting a subguild change if it was very early in the life of the PC.

So we should fix problems when they come to us, instead of prevent them?

THE CHANGE WE ARE PROPOSING AFFECTS NOBODY EXCEPT THOSE WHO FIND AN ISSUE WITH THIS PROBLEM. WHAT'S THE DEAL!?

What about new impressionable players?  Wouldn't listing skills detract from the roleplay experience from the very beginning?

Nope. They are new, and have no impression of what the games roleplay should be like already.  If anything, havign a consistently documented world is goign to help new players more than anything.

And I'm still trying to decipher how knowing what skills you get, before you make the pc instead of right after, changes anything in how you play the character or precieve them. Or how it could possibly detrect from their RP in any way.

This is information you will know regardless. Simply; knowing it beforehand can help you get into the role better.

[MarshallDFX]

Update the documentation to include anything surprising if its not mentioned for starting guilds (which it mostly already is).

Do not include a skill list.  It's just not necessary when you can already know most of the skills just by reading, and doesn't roll with the flavour of the rest of the game documentation.

That's my initial impression, anyways.

[RogueGunslinger]

For sure. I just want all skills to be suggested or implied in the guild documentations.

[RogueGunslinger]

"Is there no one else? IS THERE NO ONE ELSE!?"

[Delstro]

Is there a poll?

I enjoy blunt hints over subtle hints.

[Lizzie]

How can I "idea" to tell the staff that a skill is missing from the subguild documentation, if I don't know that it's the result of the subguild? Or even, in the case of my previous post, if I don't even know I have the skill?

I learned about this skill via ooc means..a helper told me about it. It is one of the "features" of a certain skill. And I -never- would've even thought to attempt this particular thing, had I not been informed about it by a helper. The reason I never would've thought to attempt it, is because it has been mentioned, specified, and emphasized on the GDB, that only a particular main_guild comes with this particular feature, and that -no- subguilds come with it. And since my character didn't have that main guild, I had no reason to try it.

I never would've known. I never would've known to inform the staff that it's missing from the documentation. Maybe it's missing from it on purpose. I have no idea. I also have no idea how many OTHER skills the subguilds get, that are missing from the documentation. Because, if they aren't the types of skills that would show up on our skills list, how would we know we have them?

[AmandaGreathouse]

Already sent in about it if it's the one I'm thinking of, Lizzie. I heard about it from helpers as well.