Guild/Subguild skills

[RogueGunslinger]

Why are these so goddamn vague? Why can't it just tell me what skills I will get with each class or subclass? Why doesn't it tell me all the skills a sub-guild or guild will have? Hunter has wilderness sneak? I've played that sub-guild a hundred times, I could swear it never had wilderness sneak before. Also: There's no subguild with wilderness hide is there? Striking that I have no idea if there's even a way to start with wilderness hide without branching it... Why does Skill_skinning branch into Skill_bludgeoning-weapons? It really doesn't, but it might-as-fucking-well with the way some skills do actually branch. I understand there's some fun in figuring things out for yourself, but when they often make no sense, it just makes things frustating.

Seriously: Why can't this be made easier?

[Nyr]

A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away--when Armageddon was just a wee little speck in your eye--it used to be a mostly hack and slash MUD.  Since then, it has grown into a RPI.  Since then, it has also been announced that we're going to eventually close down the game and release Armageddon Reborn, a game with its own codebase and all sorts of cool features.  We've asked that people post ideas or suggestions in the Armageddon Reborn forum for that new game.

If you just want to rant about how you hate guilds and subguilds and how vague skills are, you can do that here.  It just looks pretty empty all by itself, since all of those questions do have answers on the GDB.  If you would like to offer something constructive (like an alternative to what you hate), you can also do that here, bearing in mind that the more extensive the change, the less likely it'd be implemented in the current game. If you would like to offer something even more constructive, you could post such an alternative in the Armageddon Reborn forum, alongside these other past suggestions located here, here, here, here, here, and lots of other places on the Reborn forum.

[RogueGunslinger]

  I don't want to rant about guilds or subguilds, how they could be better, or what might make them more interesting for armageddon Reborn. I want someone to post a list of what skills each guild and sub-guild gets after character creation. I don't want to have to work through each different combination of guild/subguild by myself to figure this out over a hundred different characters, while using the vagueness that is the guild documentation as some sloppy codex.

You said this(my question) has been answered before on the forums. Well trust me, I've searched. I'm still frustrated. Still don't have and semblance of certainty in what I'm getting each time a pick a guild and I've been playing for two years. I'm sure newer players must run into some of the same frustrations.

My question was: Why is it still like this. Your answer is: Because no one's changed it. My proposition then, is to get a veteran or two and maybe even a staff member to collaborate a wee bit on what they are, and me and newbies forever on will be happy.

[Nyr]

If that's seriously what you want, no, that's not going to be allowed.  That's the answer you can find on the GDB.  Decipher what you can from the helpfiles and go from there.

[RogueGunslinger]

That IS what I want! But striking that I'd like to know why exactly I cant have it; back to my original question. Why is it so vague? Why can't we have a definitive list as to what skills the subguilds and guilds get at creation? I mean, We'll know as soon as the character is made, what's the benifit in making us wait? Making us choose our guilds skills unguided?

[FantasyWriter]

I would also like to see starter skills (not branched of course) shown plainly for '0' karma guilds.
There had to be at least half a dozen times that I picked the wrong subguild because of (IMO) confusing wording in the help files.

Hell, even just doing the subguild files would be a great help and leave the main guild's alone.

Other than an inconvenience to players, I see no reason that this shouldn't be done.

[Nyr]

Like I said, this is on the GDB, it just depends on where you look.

Please don't discuss skill trees on the GDB.

We don't want people discussing skill trees on the GDB, because

We don't answer questions about underlying skill system mechanics.  We find that withholding this information helps players to focus more on character development and roleplay.

However, you should be able to figure a lot out from the helpfiles.  If something is absolutely unclear, you can ask staff about it like this

Rebels are skilled in the guerilla arts, including the ability to move silently and to construct their own weapons as well as repair their armor.

I didn't see the harm in asking because it's fairly obvious for the other guilds with this skill but is this the citystyle or otherwise?

(or in the request tool), and get this kind of answer (perhaps)

I've updated the helpfile to be clearer on this:

Subguild Rebel                                                   (Character)

   Rebels are skilled in the guerilla arts, including the ability to move
silently in the wilderness, construct their own weapons, and repair their armor.

See Also:
   guilds, subguilds

The long and the short of it is that we don't reveal game mechanics.  You can learn what you need to know from helpfiles.

[RogueGunslinger]

I completely disagree.

It'd be nice to know what sorts of characters I can play by what sorts of skills they have. I'd like to know if I can play a certain combination without having to special-app for it first.

[RogueGunslinger]

Like I said, this is on the GDB, it just depends on where you look.

Please don't discuss skill trees on the GDB.

We don't want people discussing skill trees on the GDB, because

We don't answer questions about underlying skill system mechanics.  We find that withholding this information helps players to focus more on character development and roleplay.

However, you should be able to figure a lot out from the helpfiles.  If something is absolutely unclear, you can ask staff about it like this

I don't see how the knowledge, before character creation, of what skills you are going to have is going to affect whether or not you focus on RP or more coded aspects of the game once you're playing it. It's not an argument that makes much sense to me, really.

[Booya]

This is something that has always done my head in a bit as well.

I think it's only simple to decipher the guild helpfiles if you have experience with the game and/or a good head for code.

So why penalise the inexperienced? Or people who have played fewer characters? Or people who aren't the type of player who focuses on branching and skills? Or the disorganised who have been playing for years and simply can't remember all the ins and outs of the game?

Are you really saying it's crucial for the game that people to have spend time trawling the GDB, contacting the staff, or spending ages trying to guess what the help files mean?

I reckon people tend to want to know what skills they're going to get at character creation so they can properly flesh out their character. Especially as Sanvean once told me the subguild is meant to reflect your characters past before you started playing them.

It's not about wanting to know secrets of the code, the mechanics, or how things branch.

This is one of the strange inconsistencies of how the game is run that leaves me bemused.

[Durant]

Just thought I'd ask...

Why would it be shown exactly what is in a sub-guild when it isn't currently stated what is in a main guild?

Do you want every possible branched skill listed for every guild/sub-guild combo?

[FantasyWriter]

No.  Just _STARTING_ skills.  

PS - It's kinda like knowing what your character is capable of doing WHILE you create your character, not after your character is created and options unchangable.
   

[Booya]

Yup, just starting skills.

[RogueGunslinger]

Durant. I don't want to know any branched skills. I just want to know what skills my character will have when he starts the game. Why can't I know this? What does it hurt, when I'll know it as soon as the character is accepted anyways?

By knowing it sooner, rather than later, I can better document and back up my characters past with his coded abilities, thus allowing me to get into my character and enjoy him/her more.

[Nyr]

How would you propose changing it?

[FantasyWriter]

How would you propose changing it?

Code Select Expand

Guild Ranger   (Character)

A ranger possesses two primary abilities: to know where he/she is at all times and to stalk and kill prey (for food). Because of the emphasis on these two things, rangers are often greatly sought after as companions in the desert.

Ranger skills involve hunting persons or animals, exceptional powers of observation, a strong aptitude for archery, and some moderate skill with weapons. Exceptional rangers are able to move silently and remain unseen in the wilderness, detect sounds from far away, work with poisons, and parry enemy blows. Rangers are also often able to rescue friends from deadly situations, bandage serious wounds, and have a well-known rapport with animals, and can ride beasts of burden from the beginning.

While apparently an astonishing array of abilities, rangers are far poorer at combat than warriors, and their skills with poisons and healing powers are actually quite modest.

Rangers are usually the second easiest persons to employ, next to warriors. Any traveller would be a fool to neglect to take a ranger along as a guide, and good rangers can make large sums of money in this profession. In addition, rangers are excellent scouts and spies, able to eavesdrop without being noticed. If nothing else, rangers are superior hunters and can typically feed themselves in such places as the Grey Forest (q.v.), and can bring back skins of animals to sell.

See also:
   forage, Grey_Forest, guilds, skin

.....would become....

Code Select Expand

Guild Ranger   (Character)

A ranger possesses two primary abilities: to know where he/she is at all times and to stalk and kill prey (for food). Because of the emphasis on these two things, rangers are often greatly sought after as companions in the desert.

Ranger skills involve hunting persons or animals, exceptional powers of observation, a strong aptitude for archery, and some moderate skill with weapons. Exceptional rangers are able to move silently and remain unseen in the wilderness, detect sounds from far away, work with poisons, and parry enemy blows. Rangers are also often able to rescue friends from deadly situations, bandage serious wounds, and have a well-known rapport with animals, and can ride beasts of burden from the beginning.

While apparently an astonishing array of abilities, rangers are far poorer at combat than warriors, and their skills with poisons and healing powers are actually quite modest.

Rangers are usually the second easiest persons to employ, next to warriors. Any traveller would be a fool to neglect to take a ranger along as a guide, and good rangers can make large sums of money in this profession. In addition, rangers are excellent scouts and spies, able to eavesdrop without being noticed. If nothing else, rangers are superior hunters and can typically feed themselves in such places as the Grey Forest (q.v.), and can bring back skins of animals to sell.

See also:
   forage, Grey_Forest, guilds, skin, legolas_eyes, aragorn_ears, gimli_weapon, gollum_get_the_feck_out_of_here

Heh, I just noticed that -some- of the starter skills ARE ALREADY LISTED CLEARLY!

[Lizzie]

I'd take it a step further:

Guild Ranger     (Character)

A ranger possesses two primary abilities: to know where he/she is at all times and to stalk and kill prey (for food). (skill_ranger_vision) Because of the emphasis on these two things, rangers are often greatly sought after as companions in the desert.

Ranger skills involve hunting persons or animals (the elusive un-named skill that lets rangers be able to hunt), exceptional powers of observation (the you know what that lets you know whats y'know, notice shit), a strong aptitude for archery, (that mysterious skill we're not supposed to mention that lets rangers have a strong aptitude for archery) and some moderate skill with weapons (include all the appropriate, public help files involving specific weapon types that rangers can use). Exceptional rangers are able to move silently (that skill for the silent sneaky types) and remain unseen in the wilderness, (the skill that rangers use to hide behind bushes) detect sounds from far away, (the skill that lets rangers hear sounds from a distance, probably because they're listening) work with poisons, (skill_secret you know what skill) and parry enemy blows. (skill_no no don't say it, the staff will kill j00!!!111) Rangers are also often able to rescue friends from deadly situations, (skill_shhhhh) bandage serious wounds, (skill_the thing you do with that length of something) and have a well-known rapport with animals, (skill_not in help file) and can ride beasts of burden from the beginning. (skill_get on an animal and move in one direction or another)

While apparently an astonishing array of abilities, rangers are far poorer at combat than warriors, and their skills with poisons and healing powers are actually quite modest.

Rangers are usually the second easiest persons to employ, next to warriors. Any traveller would be a fool to neglect to take a ranger along as a guide, and good rangers can make large sums of money in this profession. In addition, rangers are excellent scouts and spies, able to eavesdrop without being noticed. If nothing else, rangers are superior hunters and can typically feed themselves in such places as the Grey Forest (q.v.), and can bring back skins of animals to sell. (skill_thing you would do to poke around the forest and find food to feed yourself)

See also:
    forage, Grey_Forest, guilds, skin

With all those references to (skill_skill) being hyperlinks to the related help files.

[RogueGunslinger]

* RogueGunslinger salivates.

[flurry]

Um...Lizzie, can't you propose a solution without explicitly doing what staff have said not to do?

I do think there is some merit to the idea of staff revealing the starting skills for subguilds and mundane guilds, though. It's entirely reasonable for a regular-application character to depend on a certain combination of skills (as compared to a concept that depends on überstats). Yet sometimes people end up having to guess and hope they get the right skills.

Generally, I like the fact that this game keeps game mechanics hidden. In this particular case though, I don't see the harm in a policy change.

[X-D]

What is funny is, I still remember my first PCs and I was able, by looking at the help files to figure out starting skills easily and 99% correct.

And the one time I thought I was wrong, I idea'd that this sub should get this skill and a minute later a staffer was like...oops, here ya go.

[Lizzie]

My above post has been edited to appeal to hypersensitive eyes (skill_scan).

[janeshephard]

The long and the short of it is that we don't reveal game mechanics.  You can learn what you need to know from helpfiles.

In fairness to the OP, he's asking you to list the skills and not reveal game mechanics. He's not asking for how sneak works for example. He's asking which guilds have sneak.

[FantasyWriter]

He's asking which guilds have [start with] sneak.

[jhunter]

Although I've never had any problem figuring it out and have never ended up with an inappropriate subguild, I don't see any good reason why the -starting- skills for each guild and subguild aren't clearly listed. It would make things a bit more newbie friendly if we did so. Being more vague about what branches down the road makes perfect sense, just not being up front and clear about what each starts with really does not.

Edit: Except for karma guilds. Those shouldn't be listed anywhere.

[Nyr]

You should be able to figure a lot out from the helpfiles.  If something is absolutely unclear, you can ask staff about it with the request tool.  This may prompt staff to update the helpfiles.

edit: tried to write more and zalanthas.org gave me the finger.

It's great to discuss policy changes, code changes, additions, etc--anything new that you want to see in the game.  Lots of new good stuff has come about because of it.

edit again:  ok, trying again after that last z.org burp:  I think it's pretty rare for a starting skill not to be mentioned in the helpfile for a 0 karma guild/subguild.  It may require a little thinking to figure out what the helpfile means, but nowhere near rocket science level.

[Twilight]

I've never had a problem figuring out from the helpfiles what guild or subguild started with what.

It's the completely undocumented stuff that can be tricky to figure out.

[Gunnerblaster]

I like it the way it is.

No need to absolutely know what your going to get, otherwise - It's more game, less role. Just read of the docs, assume what skills you will get then go for it - If you don't get what you want, better luck next time or maybe a special request and they'll change your subguild? If you do get the skills you want, congratulations.

[Gimfalisette]

I like it the way it is.

No need to absolutely know what your going to get, otherwise - It's more game, less role.

+1

[RogueGunslinger]

Some people happen to like the game portion of things too. And enjoy equally if not more than the roleplaying portions. We're not playing a mush.

[Booya]

Just read of the docs, assume what skills you will get then go for it - If you don't get what you want, better luck next time or maybe a special request and they'll change your subguild? If you do get the skills you want, congratulations.

See for me that sounds like more game and less role!  

Maybe my problem is more with skills not being hinted at at all though.

EG. The merchant guild helpfile doesn't mention (as far as I can deduce) a whole major portion of their skillset.

Also, say I wanted a warrior with the listen skill...

I think i'm right in deducing (from the helpfile) that warriors don't get it to start with. So would I have to choose a House Servant or Bard? Because they're the only two that mention overhearing things.

I'm not expecting an answer on the GDB. Seems like I have to ask this via the requst tool.  Can't help thinking that some RL friends might pass this kind of information around between themselves though. It seems like it's a case where it seems harmless, useful knowledge to have...but obviously it has the potential to harm the game or something. I know i'd be quite tempted if I had RL friends that play this game. (I wouldn't, though. Don't worry.)

Ah well, it's the way it is for a reason. I'll live with it.

[Krath]

I guess, I do not see what problem it causes
by listing the 0 karma classes -starting- skills only.
How does it harm the RP aspect of the game is what
I do not understand or comprehend.


If your going to respond with the general
<insert because we discussed it over and agreed it is fine
the way it is comment from imm>, can you please tell us
what deciding factors caused the decision to come to?

[Durant]

Perhaps I misread the OP, but is seemed to indicated not knowing what hide may or may not branch from. (amongst other things)

I think the helpfiles are pretty good at giving a heads up of what skills one might expect, anything that is not clear likely could be updated easily enough.

If I wanted a "steal" skill I bet I could pick a sub-guild quite easily that would give it to me.

[Booya]

I'm definately talking about 0-Karma starting skills.

[mansa]

I wish the new skills added since '05 were added into the guild helpfiles.

Aka two handed, and other "deep" skills.

I'd totally rewrite the helpfiles, if I had the chance.

[spawnloser]

Removing the mechanics makes you focus on role-play and character development.  Did you not get that when it was said way back at the beginning of this thread?  It doesn't matter what skills you want.  Pick a guild and go.  I recently played a character that I thought would have a skill or so... but it didn't.  Did I bitch and whine and complain?  No.  I coped with it.  If some skill is SO important that your character MUST have it, ask the staff in private if they will tell you if your guild/subguild plans will contain that skill and if it won't, change you guild/subguild or special app.  Keep this information away from the public, thanks.  You shouldn't be picking a guild/subguild because it has a skill anyway.  You should be picking a guild/subguild because it makes sense.

[RogueGunslinger]

How can we know if a guild/subguild makes sense if we don't know all of the skills that comes with it? What's the point in having a system where skills are clearly defined between guilds, if we don't know what those clear definitions are? Why have guilds at all if it doesn't matter? If we are forced to pick a class, and roleplay with that class' abilities, then for fucks sake we should know what they are. If we don't, they should be removed completely.

The only people I see arguing against this idea are the people who already have the information, or simply don't care if their character's skills fully represent their character.

[RogueGunslinger]

 Keep this information away from the public, thanks.  

This information is already public. You get it the moment your character is accepted. Everyone has access to this Info. Every. Fucking. Person.

[Cutthroat]

I don't think I'd mind seeing a list of the skills for the six basic guilds, and a couple of subguild descriptions could stand to be expanded. But I would much rather see every starting skill for the six guilds and all the subguilds hinted at, instead of just most of them. I don't know why - I think a description like the ones we have now just read better. This would take adding a couple of sentences at most to some of those descriptions.

There's really no harm in doing this that I can see. People will get the skill list just by making a throwaway character if they're really that curious.

[jstorrie]

I like the 'hints at' system we currently have, but Mansa is right: some guilds have had their skills changed in quite a while and the help files need to be updated.

I also think it'd be reasonable if a staffperson were to do some testing on the levels of skills granted by subguilds–some subguilds grant fully useful and usable skills, others seem to just useless put a minimal level of something on your skill list. I had a thirty day X/hunter a short while back, and the subguild hunter helpfile says that subguild hunters can skin, but I couldn't get a hide worth a damn, ever. My X/thugs could never successfully kick people. Etc. I mean, I know subguild skills aren't meant to substitute for guild specialties, but you should still be able to get some use out of them, I think. A review of the skill levels granted to subguilds is definitely in order.

[RogueGunslinger]

Hints would be awesome. If they hinted at everything. As-is if you hint at a few things, and don't tell a couple, the mind always tends to assume there's more not shown then shown.


Another thing: Now, veterans have access to the info that I think everyone should have. I don't think you should have to go through a hundred characters, just to know that the elf class comes with sneak and steal, and that wasn't actually a bonus you got from your subguild.

[Lizzie]

Yeah I learned something about a subguild, a skill that I thought (and was specified on the GDB by both staff and players)..was reserved for one specific main guild.

Had I known that this subguild came with this skill, I would have picked entirely different combinations of guild/subguild for quite a few of my previous characters. I also would -not- have stored one of them.

[Spice Spice Baby]

I haven't had a problem figuring out which guilds get which skills since maybe my first or second character.

All the same, I'd have no issue with the starter skill lists of the 0-karma guilds being posted in the help files. Anything that might help new players understand Arm better without being detrimental to the game is a-okay in my book.

[Synthesis]

I don't see what the big deal is.

Nobody ever complains that tabletop RP sucks because everyone can see all the skills you can achieve with a particular class.

With the exception of magick and psionics, obviously.

[LoD]

The purpose of the (somewhat) ambiguous help files, as they relate to the beginning skills of a 0 karma guild choice, is to keep the player's focus on the role rather than the skills.  It encourages the reader to consider a role as a combination of possible career choices, talents, and abilities that their character knows how to do.  It even hints toward areas where your character may excel later in their career.  I'd prefer to keep it this way, because it continues a theme that carries into the game.

You see a lanky, dark-haired elf, even when you know his name is Amos.

You see a slash land very hard on his neck, even when you know it probably did XX points of damage.

You see that the tall, muscular man looks very tired, even when you know he probably has less than 50% movement points.

There are several applications of this same type of practice employed throughout the game, and I appreciate the consistency.  When you start breaking the game down into its base components, and grouping them in ways that takes away any connotation of role or character, then I think it's a movement in the wrong direction.  A sentence such as, "Ranger skills involve hunting persons or animals, exceptional powers of observation, a strong aptitude for archery, and some moderate skill with weapons." conveys the factual information wrapped in language that keeps it role-oriented.

Replacing the sentence with, "Rangers skills involve rope-jumping, juggling, hobbit guarding, and broken_sword_fighting." strips it down to the factual information only and, for me, detracts from the efforts we make elsewhere in the game to maintain an atmosphere of role-playing and not skill-mongering.

I feel that:

a) New players won't understand the game mechanics well enough to know which skills they want.
b) Veteran players will swiftly learn which guilds or sub-guild combination provides them with the setup they want for their character.

And, as others have suggested:

a) If you really can't infer what the intended skill is, email the mud account.
b) The new skills that have been add to the various guilds should be integrated via updated guild documentation.

-LoD

[Qzzrbl]

Maybe it's just me, but I find that I roleplay exponentially better when I know the basic mechanics of any MUD I'm playng....

That way, I can focus on character development rather than, "Can I codedly do this, and would it be something my character would worth risking given the probabilities I really have no clue about because the box containing this game's mechanics also happens to be the Ark of the Covenant?"

Now I'm fully aware we're not pushing for revealing any game mechanics, but that's just my opinion on that matter.

As for as maybe a list of starting skills being made available for newbies and those of us who don't like that one or two skills recieve little to no mention whatsoever in helpfiles-- I agree. A list of starter skills for 0-karma guilds would be great. And they cover most everything on most of the guilds, but they always seem to leave out a few things here and there.

That's why I just save character's skillsets to a wordpad doc. No need to clear anything up for me.

[RogueGunslinger]

I feel that:

a) New players won't understand the game mechanics well enough to know which skills they want. I think you're vastly underestimating new players if you think they cant decide which sort of character they want to play, and what skills they would have accordingly. Unless they've never played another RPG before. Then I find it understandable. But I assume a good 70% of people who try this game out know and understand the workings of your average RPG video-game.

b) Veteran players will swiftly learn which guilds or sub-guild combination provides them with the setup they want for their character. As a player of two years, I've simply not paid attention, and I run into issues all the time. Maybe I'm just stupid? Who knows.

And, as others have suggested:

a) If you really can't infer what the intended skill is, email the mud account. Why go through extra effort that could easily be displayed for all?

b) The new skills that have been add to the various guilds should be integrated via updated guild documentation. Agreed

-LoD

[RogueGunslinger]

That's why I just save character's skillsets to a wordpad doc. No need to clear anything up for me.

OBviously if peopel intend to work around the code, there is an issue at hand, no? Why do epoiple keep implying that there is no issue, when so many poeple think there is?

Why would you argue against this? It offers no advantage over another person. IT simply allows newer players to understand what they are choosing when they pick a guild.

WHY ARE YOU ARGUING AGAINSt THIS? I'm so fucking baffled by some people. This change would only affect those who the problem ails. No one else. Graghmuffin! You guys are so frustrating sometimes.

[Synthesis]

I think the problem is when people are -shooting- to play a certain role, but then don't get the skills they need for that role, and become frustrated.

For instance, [edited by Oleupata to keep within the clear guidelines posted by Nyr above, which states that we don't need a for instance].

It's little inconsistencies like this that drive people crazy.  In a game where every swinging clit or dick is packing at least a knife, it seems reasonable to expect that the primary crafting class (merchant) would at least start with the knife-making skill.  But no.  It seems like, in a game that values RP, you would want to give subclass thieves an opportunity to actually scope out a target, instead of waiting around for the 2 second interval between the time someone pulls the 'open pack;get coins pack;buy mug;put coins pack;close pack' routine...forcing them to borderline twink-steal from someone who is actively handling their coins.  But no.  Instead, you get a set of skills across subclasses that seems almost arbitrary and random at times, with respect to certain incidental skills that can make or break a concept.

[Oleupata]

Don't put specifics on the board. If you think they should be freely available, email mud@armageddon.org or use the request tool to submit an idea.

[RogueGunslinger]

 


Those were specifics?




;klefh'iaewh['ofihwa[eoifh[oaewihft[oa8ewghtf

[Qzzrbl]

It's generally harmless, yet very useful information that Syn posted and had edited that's pretty much the root of this problem....

Those were some pretty important things to know if you were gonna go after a specific role-- especially if you're a new player.

But many of us will have to create a character to find it out for ourselves.

[RogueGunslinger]

A couple characters at least, to find out that info. It's stupid.

[Sephiroto]

I really chuckle inside at the needless ambiguity that is given by the staff sometimes regarding skills and other helpfiles.  This information isn't secret.  It is even on the advice of veteran players and  staff members that we pick guilds and subguilds that have skills congruent with the concepts that we want to play.  We don't play "warriors" or "pickpockets", we play a character with given skills and stats.  For that reason, it seems that knowing exactly what skills that regular guilds and subguilds start with is in line with the following through of the advice that players and staff so regularly suggest.  Why leave room for confusion?  Evidently the confusion is there if this discussion has been onging throughout the years.

The issue here is two sided.  Players: hold tight, a new game is coming and the skill system should be more robust.  I -assume- we'll be able to create to better detail a character with skills that we want, rather than stock guilds.
Staff: Perhaps you could consider being a bit less ambiguous.  Seriously, why does it matter if everyone knows the starting skills of each class?  Wouldn't that help us all write concepts and alleviate some confusion?

"I mean, come on..."  -Timmy: South Park

[AmandaGreathouse]

Yeah I learned something about a subguild, a skill that I thought (and was specified on the GDB by both staff and players)..was reserved for one specific main guild.

Had I known that this subguild came with this skill, I would have picked entirely different combinations of guild/subguild for quite a few of my previous characters. I also would -not- have stored one of them.

Been on this road before. I actually special apped a merchant breed with that ability over a year ago, not knowing that I could get it from a subguild. I was told I was asking for skills just to have skills.

Well, yes, if I'd known that subguild had the ability, I could see that. But since I didn't, I wasted a special app on it. And it doesn't even begin to allude to it in its help file.

[Nyr]

Just so we're clear, you can submit a request if you feel a helpfile for a guild or subguild doesn't give the information it should about starting skills.

This is pretty much how I feel about this, as well:

A sentence such as, "Ranger skills involve hunting persons or animals, exceptional powers of observation, a strong aptitude for archery, and some moderate skill with weapons." conveys the factual information wrapped in language that keeps it role-oriented.

Replacing the sentence with, "Rangers skills involve rope-jumping, juggling, hobbit guarding, and broken_sword_fighting." strips it down to the factual information only and, for me, detracts from the efforts we make elsewhere in the game to maintain an atmosphere of role-playing and not skill-mongering.

If anything gets added, it'll probably get added as displayed in the first example, not as displayed in the second example.

[RogueGunslinger]

....Really?

I was under the assumption that there were many skills that some guilds/subguilds get that isn't in the documentation.

That was sort of the whole point of this thread.

[Nyr]

It's probably a lot more like a skill here or there that isn't mentioned in a guild/subguild helpfile somehow.

[Cerelum]

I really get irritated not with the main guilds but with the subguilds.  For instance my current character picked something thinking it would be a TON more useful than it currently is and is now HATING the fact he is subguild X.

I am totally for you guys either:

A. Rewriting the helpfiles of subguilds to include (Through rpish silly sentances or straight mention) that my subguild choice will get underwater basketweaving and value or whatever.

B. Or allow people to switch their subguild after screwing up a selection instead of having to store their character or live with their hatred of their subguild.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Just so we're clear, you can submit a request if you feel a helpfile for a guild or subguild doesn't give the information it should about starting skills.

I hope using 'suggestion or idea' under GDB is acceptable. I couldn't think of a better heading to put it under. But it's been sent.

And, just for the record to everyone in GDB-Land, since it seems like there's been a lot of snipping and hurt feelings/egos/pride on the GDB of late: However snippy my previous post may have come off, it wasn't meant to be so, but rather simply a strong agreement with the post it quoted.

[mansa]

This feels like a non-issue, when you play for the roleplay.

This is an issue when your used to playing for the H&S action.

I fully believe that anyone trying to play a hack and slash game has left the MUD games and moved on to MMORPGs.  Those people who would mostly benefit from these things don't play our game anymore.
Our game doesn't attract those people.  Why should we make limitations in our game specifically to create a tone in our game to hamper the people who don't play.

Its like allowing "lives" in a game like Mario.  Not needed anymore.  Nobody plays with quarters anymore.

[Nyr]

I hope using 'suggestion or idea' under GDB is acceptable. I couldn't think of a better heading to put it under. But it's been sent.

That works.

[RogueGunslinger]

This feels like a non-issue, when you play for the roleplay.

This is an issue when your used to playing for the H&S action.

I fully believe that anyone trying to play a hack and slash game has left the MUD games and moved on to MMORPGs.  Those people who would mostly benefit from these things don't play our game anymore.
Our game doesn't attract those people.  Why should we make limitations in our game specifically to create a tone in our game to hamper the people who don't play.

Its like allowing "lives" in a game like Mario.  Not needed anymore.  Nobody plays with quarters anymore.

Well regardless of how you feel. This is an issue for people who enjoy roleplay over the h/s experiance too. So try again.

Even if this was for people who enjoy the coded aspects of play over the roleplaying.. Who cares? Are they not people playing this game for enjoyment too? Or do you think that the game should only cater to those of a certain playstyle.

I fully believe that anyone trying to play a hack and slash game has left the MUD games and moved on to MMORPGs.  Those people who would mostly benefit from these things don't play our game anymore.

Clearly this isn't the issue, considering we who care do actually play the game. Come on now, you're not even sticking to the topic at hand, and once again, I'd like to express, in bold and capitals: THE CHANGE WE ARE PROPOSING AFFECTS NOBODY EXCEPT THOSE WHO FIND AN ISSUE WITH THIS PROBLEM. WHAT'S THE DEAL!?

[Rhyden]

I'm surprised players have gotten so heated up over this. To me, it feels like it isn't really an issue. I couldn't care less if there was a blurb of which skills subguilds get or not. It seems the subguild docs do a pretty good job at telling you which starting skills you'll get already. Besides, -not knowing- is half the fun! Isn't it? I cherished my newbie days solely because there was so much I didn't know. Now I'm a cranky old vet knowing more than I probably should, and the things I look most forwards to are those things that are unknown to me.

[X-D]

I've never had a problem getting a subguild change if it was very early in the life of the PC.

[Cutthroat]

This isn't about getting a coded advantage. It's about clarity. It is, indeed, intended to make RP easier.

The staff already said they'll make the skills of each guild and subguild clearer in their descriptions so that the player knows how their role will fit with their guild/sub. This has less to do with codedly playing a character and more to do with properly creating a character in order to play the desired role.

I put in a request through "Website > Bug / Typo / Idea" for the only issue I could think of with any of the guild/sub descriptions.

[Myrdryn]

THE CHANGE WE ARE PROPOSING AFFECTS NOBODY EXCEPT THOSE WHO FIND AN ISSUE WITH THIS PROBLEM. WHAT'S THE DEAL!?

What about new impressionable players?  Wouldn't listing skills detract from the roleplay experience from the very beginning?

[Nyr]

I've never had a problem getting a subguild change if it was very early in the life of the PC.

There's this.  If you miss a subguild for whatever reason, it can be changed.  It's annoying as hell, and we probably won't do it if you screw it up a bunch, but it can be done.

Also, those who find an issue with the problem should put in a request about it so that the problem is not an issue anymore.  A couple have done so so far.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Not only done so but received a very nicely worded and swift response.

Thank you very much for that, Nyr.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm surprised players have gotten so heated up over this. To me, it feels like it isn't really an issue. I couldn't care less if there was a blurb of which skills subguilds get or not. It seems the subguild docs do a pretty good job at telling you which starting skills you'll get already. Besides, -not knowing- is half the fun! Isn't it? I cherished my newbie days solely because there was so much I didn't know. Now I'm a cranky old vet knowing more than I probably should, and the things I look most forwards to are those things that are unknown to me.

The reason I am personally heated is because everyone either thinks this isn't an issue, or doesn't care. Those of us who do think it's an issue, are constantly being condescended by others into believing that everything is fine, and we're the ones who are stupid/inexperienced/not playing right.

If this wasn't an issue people wouldn't take issue with it, for Christ sake.

I've never had a problem getting a subguild change if it was very early in the life of the PC.

So we should fix problems when they come to us, instead of prevent them?

THE CHANGE WE ARE PROPOSING AFFECTS NOBODY EXCEPT THOSE WHO FIND AN ISSUE WITH THIS PROBLEM. WHAT'S THE DEAL!?

What about new impressionable players?  Wouldn't listing skills detract from the roleplay experience from the very beginning?

Nope. They are new, and have no impression of what the games roleplay should be like already.  If anything, havign a consistently documented world is goign to help new players more than anything.

And I'm still trying to decipher how knowing what skills you get, before you make the pc instead of right after, changes anything in how you play the character or precieve them. Or how it could possibly detrect from their RP in any way.

This is information you will know regardless. Simply; knowing it beforehand can help you get into the role better.

[MarshallDFX]

Update the documentation to include anything surprising if its not mentioned for starting guilds (which it mostly already is).

Do not include a skill list.  It's just not necessary when you can already know most of the skills just by reading, and doesn't roll with the flavour of the rest of the game documentation.

That's my initial impression, anyways.

[RogueGunslinger]

For sure. I just want all skills to be suggested or implied in the guild documentations.

[RogueGunslinger]

"Is there no one else? IS THERE NO ONE ELSE!?"

[Delstro]

Is there a poll?

I enjoy blunt hints over subtle hints.

[Lizzie]

How can I "idea" to tell the staff that a skill is missing from the subguild documentation, if I don't know that it's the result of the subguild? Or even, in the case of my previous post, if I don't even know I have the skill?

I learned about this skill via ooc means..a helper told me about it. It is one of the "features" of a certain skill. And I -never- would've even thought to attempt this particular thing, had I not been informed about it by a helper. The reason I never would've thought to attempt it, is because it has been mentioned, specified, and emphasized on the GDB, that only a particular main_guild comes with this particular feature, and that -no- subguilds come with it. And since my character didn't have that main guild, I had no reason to try it.

I never would've known. I never would've known to inform the staff that it's missing from the documentation. Maybe it's missing from it on purpose. I have no idea. I also have no idea how many OTHER skills the subguilds get, that are missing from the documentation. Because, if they aren't the types of skills that would show up on our skills list, how would we know we have them?

[AmandaGreathouse]

Already sent in about it if it's the one I'm thinking of, Lizzie. I heard about it from helpers as well.

[Nyr]

You can just ask in the request if you're not sure about something.

[Rhyden]

I'm surprised players have gotten so heated up over this. To me, it feels like it isn't really an issue. I couldn't care less if there was a blurb of which skills subguilds get or not. It seems the subguild docs do a pretty good job at telling you which starting skills you'll get already. Besides, -not knowing- is half the fun! Isn't it? I cherished my newbie days solely because there was so much I didn't know. Now I'm a cranky old vet knowing more than I probably should, and the things I look most forwards to are those things that are unknown to me.

The reason I am personally heated is because everyone either thinks this isn't an issue, or doesn't care. Those of us who do think it's an issue, are constantly being condescended by others into believing that everything is fine, and we're the ones who are stupid/inexperienced/not playing right.

If this wasn't an issue people wouldn't take issue with it, for Christ sake.

Alright then I'm going to exchange my indifference with joining the camp that thinks subguilds should remain the way they are because leaving certain aspects and coded technicalities of the game unrevealed to players is beneficial to our enjoyment of the roleplaying required.

[Cerelum]

This feels like a non-issue, when you play for the roleplay.

This is an issue when your used to playing for the H&S action.

I fully believe that anyone trying to play a hack and slash game has left the MUD games and moved on to MMORPGs.  Those people who would mostly benefit from these things don't play our game anymore.
Our game doesn't attract those people.  Why should we make limitations in our game specifically to create a tone in our game to hamper the people who don't play.

Its like allowing "lives" in a game like Mario.  Not needed anymore.  Nobody plays with quarters anymore.

While you are entitled to your own beliefs I would say that from viewing the majority on the GDB, that you sir are the minority.

The problem and great thing about this game is that it is NOT up for vote and the staff doesn't have to do anything the staff doesn't want to do.

The problem, because some staff are set in their ways and think that "Because it's always been this way, it should be this way."  The good is that a good majority of people, myself included at times have requested stuff based mostly out of greed and want for the spoilers and so on.

This however I would have to agree with the side for more descriptive helpfiles and skill knowledge.

If I were to do it, I would make it like Clan Documentation, something that a player could request from staff and have a password protected page.  This way, the ones who are happy with stuff the way it is, they can look at the same old tired "hinty" documentation.

Those of us who want to know what that character we plan to spend 10 days played or more on is going to be able to do with a certainty, can get access to the docs.

So in the end, my hope is that staff will make some type of compromise on this issue, be it one suggested here or one of their own choice.  We are all guests here in the game, but sometimes it's good to heed your guests wishes from time to time you know.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm surprised players have gotten so heated up over this. To me, it feels like it isn't really an issue. I couldn't care less if there was a blurb of which skills subguilds get or not. It seems the subguild docs do a pretty good job at telling you which starting skills you'll get already. Besides, -not knowing- is half the fun! Isn't it? I cherished my newbie days solely because there was so much I didn't know. Now I'm a cranky old vet knowing more than I probably should, and the things I look most forwards to are those things that are unknown to me.

The reason I am personally heated is because everyone either thinks this isn't an issue, or doesn't care. Those of us who do think it's an issue, are constantly being condescended by others into believing that everything is fine, and we're the ones who are stupid/inexperienced/not playing right.

If this wasn't an issue people wouldn't take issue with it, for Christ sake.

Alright then I'm going to exchange my indifference with joining the camp that thinks subguilds should remain the way they are because leaving certain aspects and coded technicalities of the game unrevealed to players is beneficial to our enjoyment of the roleplaying required.

We aren't talking about "certain aspects" we are talking about this one single one. Can you point out how this instance of not letting people know their coded skills until they log into the game is more beneficial than not? I've expressed to you why the opposite is true, but no one has expressed why this would detriment anyone. You never express how it's benefitial to keep things as is, only how it's easy, or less work.

So please, is there anyone else?

[Cerelum]

I'm surprised players have gotten so heated up over this. To me, it feels like it isn't really an issue. I couldn't care less if there was a blurb of which skills subguilds get or not. It seems the subguild docs do a pretty good job at telling you which starting skills you'll get already. Besides, -not knowing- is half the fun! Isn't it? I cherished my newbie days solely because there was so much I didn't know. Now I'm a cranky old vet knowing more than I probably should, and the things I look most forwards to are those things that are unknown to me.

The reason I am personally heated is because everyone either thinks this isn't an issue, or doesn't care. Those of us who do think it's an issue, are constantly being condescended by others into believing that everything is fine, and we're the ones who are stupid/inexperienced/not playing right.

If this wasn't an issue people wouldn't take issue with it, for Christ sake.

Alright then I'm going to exchange my indifference with joining the camp that thinks subguilds should remain the way they are because leaving certain aspects and coded technicalities of the game unrevealed to players is beneficial to our enjoyment of the roleplaying required.

Rhyden,

I don't think you get what is being asked for here.  We aren't saying that we want to know that a thief gets steal which branches into OMFG PWNING YOU.

We would just like to know what coded startup skills we have rather than either having to:

A.  Write them down and save them from each different subguild/guild we pick, that way we have a reference.

B.  Picking something like General Crafter and finding out it blows for your current role and feeling like you screwed yourself over.

C.  Having to store your character because you picked something unplayable by your location, Forester in Red Storm who never intends to leave Red Storm.

I don't believe staff should have to deal with every little request of skill changes when honestly I would rather them focus on things like Special applications, New Character Apps and so on a hell of a lot more than having a round table about switching the skill of so and so to so and so.

So an easy way to alieviate that and make skill requests more rare is to just let folks know what they are getting from the get go.  Some guilds/subguilds tell you everything, some are horribly vague and suck.

[Rhyden]

We aren't talking about "certain aspects" we are talking about this one single one. Can you point out how this instance of not letting people know their coded skills until they log into the game is more beneficial than not? I've expressed to you why the opposite is true, but no one has expressed why this would detriment anyone. You never express how it's benefitial to keep things as is, only how it's easy, or less work.

True, we are speaking about one aspect, which is similar to other aspects of the game staff keep hidden from players.

My explanation on the subject is that in keeping hard code hidden from players, such as pinning 'skill_baloonmaking' to 'subguild_clown', we can focus more on the roleplaying aspect of the game. Also, subguilds already have little blurbs hinting at which starting skills you will get. With my example in mind, you would probably see something like 'clown subguilds are usually adept at making animals out of baloons.'

edit: Also, what LoD said. He summed up my thoughts perfectly.

[Cerelum]

We aren't talking about "certain aspects" we are talking about this one single one. Can you point out how this instance of not letting people know their coded skills until they log into the game is more beneficial than not? I've expressed to you why the opposite is true, but no one has expressed why this would detriment anyone. You never express how it's benefitial to keep things as is, only how it's easy, or less work.

True, we are speaking about one aspect, which is similar to other aspects of the game staff keep hidden from players.

My explanation on the subject is that in keeping hard code hidden from players, such as pinning 'skill_baloonmaking' to 'subguild_clown', we can focus more on the roleplaying aspect of the game. Also, subguilds already have little blurbs hinting at which starting skills you will get. With my example in mind, you would probably see something like 'clown subguilds are usually adept at making animals out of baloons.'

Sometimes people don't want to sort through all the verbal masturbation to find the hidden meanings.

We are expected to react realistically to the world within which we play in.  Some of us have Karma to play hugely dangerous guilds/races.

Yet we aren't trusted with a simple cause and effect type of information??  X gives you X Y and Z.  It just seems like much of the way things are held aren't even in the least by my eyes. 

This I think all falls down on that classic arguement from anyone who's been around longer than someone else, "I had to walk to school, so should you." when in reality that's not a reasonable or logical way to look at things.  Just because it always -has- been one way, doesn't doom it to always be that way.

To me the mechanics rules is fine and good, everyone shouldn't know that they have to branch underwater basketweaving into scuba diving, but I must stress what you folks I don't think are getting in big letters now.

We don't want to know anything beyond what we will gain by typing username,password,e,enter, point Allanak, skills!

[RogueGunslinger]

We aren't talking about "certain aspects" we are talking about this one single one. Can you point out how this instance of not letting people know their coded skills until they log into the game is more beneficial than not? I've expressed to you why the opposite is true, but no one has expressed why this would detriment anyone. You never express how it's benefitial to keep things as is, only how it's easy, or less work.

True, we are speaking about one aspect, which is similar to other aspects of the game staff keep hidden from players.

My explanation on the subject is that in keeping hard code hidden from players, such as pinning 'skill_baloonmaking' to 'subguild_clown', we can focus more on the roleplaying aspect of the game. Also, subguilds already have little blurbs hinting at which starting skills you will get. With my example in mind, you would probably see something like 'clown subguilds are usually adept at making animals out of baloons.'

edit: Also, what LoD said. He summed up my thoughts perfectly.

But you're treating this as information that we wouldn't have just by logging in. We already have access to this info. We just want it a little bit earlier. How could having information a bit sooner keep us from focusing on the roleplay? We still get the same info, we just get to flesh out are character better out before we submut it and have to go back and fix thing later.

That's my question to you. How could this information be detrimental when everyone already has access to it?


/fin

[Cerelum]

We aren't talking about "certain aspects" we are talking about this one single one. Can you point out how this instance of not letting people know their coded skills until they log into the game is more beneficial than not? I've expressed to you why the opposite is true, but no one has expressed why this would detriment anyone. You never express how it's benefitial to keep things as is, only how it's easy, or less work.

True, we are speaking about one aspect, which is similar to other aspects of the game staff keep hidden from players.

My explanation on the subject is that in keeping hard code hidden from players, such as pinning 'skill_baloonmaking' to 'subguild_clown', we can focus more on the roleplaying aspect of the game. Also, subguilds already have little blurbs hinting at which starting skills you will get. With my example in mind, you would probably see something like 'clown subguilds are usually adept at making animals out of baloons.'

edit: Also, what LoD said. He summed up my thoughts perfectly.

But you're treating this as information that we wouldn't have just by logging in. We already have access to this info. We just want it a little bit earlier. How could having information a bit sooner keep us from focusing on the roleplay? We still get the same info, we just get to flesh out are character better out before we submut it and have to go back and fix thing later.

That's my question to you. How could this information be detrimental when everyone already has access to it?


/fin

I think some of you aren't understanding this bolded point...it's not super sekret info, it's just inconvienient info.

[Nyr]

A solution has been proposed.  A couple of people have submitted requests towards it.  Not everyone is going to be happy with it.

Please follow the instructions for pursuing this solution, or it won't be done, period.  Pointless arguments like this just make it less likely anyone will want to do anything for it.