Guild/Subguild skills

[Twilight]

I've never had a problem figuring out from the helpfiles what guild or subguild started with what.

It's the completely undocumented stuff that can be tricky to figure out.

[Gunnerblaster]

I like it the way it is.

No need to absolutely know what your going to get, otherwise - It's more game, less role. Just read of the docs, assume what skills you will get then go for it - If you don't get what you want, better luck next time or maybe a special request and they'll change your subguild? If you do get the skills you want, congratulations.

[Gimfalisette]

I like it the way it is.

No need to absolutely know what your going to get, otherwise - It's more game, less role.

+1

[RogueGunslinger]

Some people happen to like the game portion of things too. And enjoy equally if not more than the roleplaying portions. We're not playing a mush.

[Booya]

Just read of the docs, assume what skills you will get then go for it - If you don't get what you want, better luck next time or maybe a special request and they'll change your subguild? If you do get the skills you want, congratulations.

See for me that sounds like more game and less role!  

Maybe my problem is more with skills not being hinted at at all though.

EG. The merchant guild helpfile doesn't mention (as far as I can deduce) a whole major portion of their skillset.

Also, say I wanted a warrior with the listen skill...

I think i'm right in deducing (from the helpfile) that warriors don't get it to start with. So would I have to choose a House Servant or Bard? Because they're the only two that mention overhearing things.

I'm not expecting an answer on the GDB. Seems like I have to ask this via the requst tool.  Can't help thinking that some RL friends might pass this kind of information around between themselves though. It seems like it's a case where it seems harmless, useful knowledge to have...but obviously it has the potential to harm the game or something. I know i'd be quite tempted if I had RL friends that play this game. (I wouldn't, though. Don't worry.)

Ah well, it's the way it is for a reason. I'll live with it.

[Krath]

I guess, I do not see what problem it causes
by listing the 0 karma classes -starting- skills only.
How does it harm the RP aspect of the game is what
I do not understand or comprehend.


If your going to respond with the general
<insert because we discussed it over and agreed it is fine
the way it is comment from imm>, can you please tell us
what deciding factors caused the decision to come to?

[Durant]

Perhaps I misread the OP, but is seemed to indicated not knowing what hide may or may not branch from. (amongst other things)

I think the helpfiles are pretty good at giving a heads up of what skills one might expect, anything that is not clear likely could be updated easily enough.

If I wanted a "steal" skill I bet I could pick a sub-guild quite easily that would give it to me.

[Booya]

I'm definately talking about 0-Karma starting skills.

[mansa]

I wish the new skills added since '05 were added into the guild helpfiles.

Aka two handed, and other "deep" skills.

I'd totally rewrite the helpfiles, if I had the chance.

[spawnloser]

Removing the mechanics makes you focus on role-play and character development.  Did you not get that when it was said way back at the beginning of this thread?  It doesn't matter what skills you want.  Pick a guild and go.  I recently played a character that I thought would have a skill or so... but it didn't.  Did I bitch and whine and complain?  No.  I coped with it.  If some skill is SO important that your character MUST have it, ask the staff in private if they will tell you if your guild/subguild plans will contain that skill and if it won't, change you guild/subguild or special app.  Keep this information away from the public, thanks.  You shouldn't be picking a guild/subguild because it has a skill anyway.  You should be picking a guild/subguild because it makes sense.

[RogueGunslinger]

How can we know if a guild/subguild makes sense if we don't know all of the skills that comes with it? What's the point in having a system where skills are clearly defined between guilds, if we don't know what those clear definitions are? Why have guilds at all if it doesn't matter? If we are forced to pick a class, and roleplay with that class' abilities, then for fucks sake we should know what they are. If we don't, they should be removed completely.

The only people I see arguing against this idea are the people who already have the information, or simply don't care if their character's skills fully represent their character.

[RogueGunslinger]

 Keep this information away from the public, thanks.  

This information is already public. You get it the moment your character is accepted. Everyone has access to this Info. Every. Fucking. Person.

[Cutthroat]

I don't think I'd mind seeing a list of the skills for the six basic guilds, and a couple of subguild descriptions could stand to be expanded. But I would much rather see every starting skill for the six guilds and all the subguilds hinted at, instead of just most of them. I don't know why - I think a description like the ones we have now just read better. This would take adding a couple of sentences at most to some of those descriptions.

There's really no harm in doing this that I can see. People will get the skill list just by making a throwaway character if they're really that curious.

[jstorrie]

I like the 'hints at' system we currently have, but Mansa is right: some guilds have had their skills changed in quite a while and the help files need to be updated.

I also think it'd be reasonable if a staffperson were to do some testing on the levels of skills granted by subguilds–some subguilds grant fully useful and usable skills, others seem to just useless put a minimal level of something on your skill list. I had a thirty day X/hunter a short while back, and the subguild hunter helpfile says that subguild hunters can skin, but I couldn't get a hide worth a damn, ever. My X/thugs could never successfully kick people. Etc. I mean, I know subguild skills aren't meant to substitute for guild specialties, but you should still be able to get some use out of them, I think. A review of the skill levels granted to subguilds is definitely in order.

[RogueGunslinger]

Hints would be awesome. If they hinted at everything. As-is if you hint at a few things, and don't tell a couple, the mind always tends to assume there's more not shown then shown.


Another thing: Now, veterans have access to the info that I think everyone should have. I don't think you should have to go through a hundred characters, just to know that the elf class comes with sneak and steal, and that wasn't actually a bonus you got from your subguild.

[Lizzie]

Yeah I learned something about a subguild, a skill that I thought (and was specified on the GDB by both staff and players)..was reserved for one specific main guild.

Had I known that this subguild came with this skill, I would have picked entirely different combinations of guild/subguild for quite a few of my previous characters. I also would -not- have stored one of them.

[Spice Spice Baby]

I haven't had a problem figuring out which guilds get which skills since maybe my first or second character.

All the same, I'd have no issue with the starter skill lists of the 0-karma guilds being posted in the help files. Anything that might help new players understand Arm better without being detrimental to the game is a-okay in my book.

[Synthesis]

I don't see what the big deal is.

Nobody ever complains that tabletop RP sucks because everyone can see all the skills you can achieve with a particular class.

With the exception of magick and psionics, obviously.

[LoD]

The purpose of the (somewhat) ambiguous help files, as they relate to the beginning skills of a 0 karma guild choice, is to keep the player's focus on the role rather than the skills.  It encourages the reader to consider a role as a combination of possible career choices, talents, and abilities that their character knows how to do.  It even hints toward areas where your character may excel later in their career.  I'd prefer to keep it this way, because it continues a theme that carries into the game.

You see a lanky, dark-haired elf, even when you know his name is Amos.

You see a slash land very hard on his neck, even when you know it probably did XX points of damage.

You see that the tall, muscular man looks very tired, even when you know he probably has less than 50% movement points.

There are several applications of this same type of practice employed throughout the game, and I appreciate the consistency.  When you start breaking the game down into its base components, and grouping them in ways that takes away any connotation of role or character, then I think it's a movement in the wrong direction.  A sentence such as, "Ranger skills involve hunting persons or animals, exceptional powers of observation, a strong aptitude for archery, and some moderate skill with weapons." conveys the factual information wrapped in language that keeps it role-oriented.

Replacing the sentence with, "Rangers skills involve rope-jumping, juggling, hobbit guarding, and broken_sword_fighting." strips it down to the factual information only and, for me, detracts from the efforts we make elsewhere in the game to maintain an atmosphere of role-playing and not skill-mongering.

I feel that:

a) New players won't understand the game mechanics well enough to know which skills they want.
b) Veteran players will swiftly learn which guilds or sub-guild combination provides them with the setup they want for their character.

And, as others have suggested:

a) If you really can't infer what the intended skill is, email the mud account.
b) The new skills that have been add to the various guilds should be integrated via updated guild documentation.

-LoD

[Qzzrbl]

Maybe it's just me, but I find that I roleplay exponentially better when I know the basic mechanics of any MUD I'm playng....

That way, I can focus on character development rather than, "Can I codedly do this, and would it be something my character would worth risking given the probabilities I really have no clue about because the box containing this game's mechanics also happens to be the Ark of the Covenant?"

Now I'm fully aware we're not pushing for revealing any game mechanics, but that's just my opinion on that matter.

As for as maybe a list of starting skills being made available for newbies and those of us who don't like that one or two skills recieve little to no mention whatsoever in helpfiles-- I agree. A list of starter skills for 0-karma guilds would be great. And they cover most everything on most of the guilds, but they always seem to leave out a few things here and there.

That's why I just save character's skillsets to a wordpad doc. No need to clear anything up for me.

[RogueGunslinger]

I feel that:

a) New players won't understand the game mechanics well enough to know which skills they want. I think you're vastly underestimating new players if you think they cant decide which sort of character they want to play, and what skills they would have accordingly. Unless they've never played another RPG before. Then I find it understandable. But I assume a good 70% of people who try this game out know and understand the workings of your average RPG video-game.

b) Veteran players will swiftly learn which guilds or sub-guild combination provides them with the setup they want for their character. As a player of two years, I've simply not paid attention, and I run into issues all the time. Maybe I'm just stupid? Who knows.

And, as others have suggested:

a) If you really can't infer what the intended skill is, email the mud account. Why go through extra effort that could easily be displayed for all?

b) The new skills that have been add to the various guilds should be integrated via updated guild documentation. Agreed

-LoD

[RogueGunslinger]

That's why I just save character's skillsets to a wordpad doc. No need to clear anything up for me.

OBviously if peopel intend to work around the code, there is an issue at hand, no? Why do epoiple keep implying that there is no issue, when so many poeple think there is?

Why would you argue against this? It offers no advantage over another person. IT simply allows newer players to understand what they are choosing when they pick a guild.

WHY ARE YOU ARGUING AGAINSt THIS? I'm so fucking baffled by some people. This change would only affect those who the problem ails. No one else. Graghmuffin! You guys are so frustrating sometimes.

[Synthesis]

I think the problem is when people are -shooting- to play a certain role, but then don't get the skills they need for that role, and become frustrated.

For instance, [edited by Oleupata to keep within the clear guidelines posted by Nyr above, which states that we don't need a for instance].

It's little inconsistencies like this that drive people crazy.  In a game where every swinging clit or dick is packing at least a knife, it seems reasonable to expect that the primary crafting class (merchant) would at least start with the knife-making skill.  But no.  It seems like, in a game that values RP, you would want to give subclass thieves an opportunity to actually scope out a target, instead of waiting around for the 2 second interval between the time someone pulls the 'open pack;get coins pack;buy mug;put coins pack;close pack' routine...forcing them to borderline twink-steal from someone who is actively handling their coins.  But no.  Instead, you get a set of skills across subclasses that seems almost arbitrary and random at times, with respect to certain incidental skills that can make or break a concept.

[Oleupata]

Don't put specifics on the board. If you think they should be freely available, email mud@armageddon.org or use the request tool to submit an idea.

[RogueGunslinger]

 


Those were specifics?




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