An Idea about Waying Offline People

[musashi]

I was thinking ... what if you could set yourself when you went to log off as either being available or trying to hide, and while you were off-line and set to available people could still contact you and send you way messages that you could read when you came back.

To the player sending the way it would be as if you were online. They just found your mind and psi'ed you a message and you didn't get back to them.

If you were set as trying to hide maybe the contact attempts could check your barrier skill as though you had it up, and only let you contact them if you could beat it.

I was just thinking that something like this might make it a lot easier for people to coordiante things entirely IC.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I imagine this would be awesome. Though it would be great if the backed messages had some sort of tag that told you when your PC got them. Like, you know "Emergency, trapped in a pit and dying!" from four days ago... is probably less urgent than if it's from the hour before you logged in. Because there's a much better chance said pc is still alive. And I'm a slight bit worried at exactly 'how' spammy this might be for leader pc's when they first log in. Also, if it's checking for a barrier on your end, and it fails, does that affect your barrier skill in the same way that it would if you were logged in?

Just, you know, some thoughts.

[musashi]

Yeah. I would trust in the coding staff to make sure that all the checks and balances of it weighed out. The basic idea just sprug up from a thought I was having awhile back. You can always way an NPC, and psi them something and sometimes IG days later staff will pop into that NPC, find your mind, and answer you ...

But with PC's that isn't possible, when it seems to me like it totally should be. So I'd really like if it some kind of system like that was in place to make it feel more like PC's were around all the time, just like the NPCs of the world are.

[Synthesis]

I like it.

[Cutthroat]

Code Select Expand

You suffer from use of the Way.
You contact the tall, muscular man with the Way, but he is not available right now. Please leave a message after the beep.

*beep*
                              _______                                ___
                             /\\_____//~-_                        _-~\\__
                            (~)       ~-_ ~-_                  _-~ _-~  
                           (~)           ~-_ ~-_            _-~ /-~      
Welcome to Armageddon!     (~)              `~-_ ~_======_--~~ __~        
                         (~)               _~_\__\____/__/_--\ ~`-_  
                          \           _-~~            _-~~~-_ \_  ~-_  
You may:                    ~-       __--~`_    /   _-~         ~.     ~_
(N) Create a new account           -~        \     _~       ___,  \ ~-_  \
(C) Connect to your account      ,~ _-,       ~  _~         \   \  | , \ \  
(V) Toggle ANSI/VT100 mode      / /~/      -~   /            ~  /  /  \~  \
(B) Toggle 'brief' menus        | | \     _~    |        __-~  / _/  \~  '\
(D) Documentation menu          \ ~-_~   -   |  _      ~-____-~ .~  \~    |
(X) Exit Armageddon             /`.  __~~   ~   `_          __-~   \~    \~
(?) Read menu options           \_ ~~   .  |  .   ~-____--~~   \ \_~   _/~  
                               /\___--~       ~--_      /   ____~ _/~~    
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                             { /\ \             /      _~ \  ~`~~\\~~\\~~\
Read the documentation        { |\     __ _           _-\   \  \\~~\\~~\\~~\
menu before creating your     | ||~_ /`    ~\  /    _/~  )   | |\\~~\\~~\\~~
character, please.            | ||  \|"""""""|_ __-~     ;   | |~\\~~\\~~\\~
                             \ \\  ({"""""""}\\        _~  /  /~~\\~~\\~~\\
Armageddon is OPEN.



Could maybe use the mudmail system to keep track of messages sent to you. Maybe.

[Lizzie]

Way, way, way too easy for abuse. It's hard enough as it is, responding to the demands of "important people" over the Way, if you're new, or if you just have sucky contact, or if their barrier is up...

But you're giving those same people a built-in excuse to kill you, or kill your girlfriend, or empty out your shared apartment, or fire you, or fire your partner...

all because you refused to answer them - and they KNOW you got the message. But they had no way of knowing you were off line.

[Cutthroat]

Way, way, way too easy for abuse. It's hard enough as it is, responding to the demands of "important people" over the Way, if you're new, or if you just have sucky contact, or if their barrier is up...

But you're giving those same people a built-in excuse to kill you, or kill your girlfriend, or empty out your shared apartment, or fire you, or fire your partner...

all because you refused to answer them - and they KNOW you got the message. But they had no way of knowing you were off line.

Log out with barrier. Barrier stays on when you log back in. Preferably, barrier will keep out these unwanted messages (and not get crushed while offline).

[spawnloser]

How do you make sure the message goes to the correct character.  How characters and the Way works now, I don't think this is feasible.

[mansa]

I like the intent of the idea.  It can be coded a billion different ways, be that a mail box system / npcs / mudmail / bio entries / way messages before you actually enter into the game.

[Rhyden]

I too like the intent of this idea. Maybe only allow one way per PC while the receiving PC is offline. This could also help coordinate ooc times through IC means.

[Synthesis]

I too like the intent of this idea. Maybe only allow one way per PC while the receiving PC is offline. This could also help coordinate ooc times through IC means.

Limiting it to once would be foolish.

> rest
You rest your tired bones

> contact big.boss
> You contact the grey-bearded, one-eyed man with the Way.

> psi  Hey Boss, I just figured out where Solid's been hiding out.  He's got a secret room hidden by a trash-pile in the third alley past the jakhals.
You suffer from use of the Way.
You send a telepathic message to the grey-bearded, one-eyed man:
     "Hey Boss, I just figured out where Solid's been hiding out.  He's got a secret room hidden by a trash-pile in the third alley past the jakhals."

Blood wells up in the back of your throat as someone stabs you with a steel-bladed combat knife!

> key snake

In the room:
1. the rugged man with a mullet

> psi Shit, he's killin' me right now! He must've followed me back from his hideout!
You suffer from use of the Way.
I'm sorry, that mind is busy at the moment.

[Halcyon]

Would it be more preferrable to have a templar run message service in game, where you can pay a few coins to leave a message, people can pick up their messages by going there, and possibly sneaky or templar skills allowing a player to "sniff" other people's messages?

[Synthesis]

1. Let people leave messages via the Way that you receive upon logging in.

2. Let anyone with appropriate skills have appropriate access to said messages.

3. That's it.  What's the problem?

[Salt Merchant]

I don't want to be still playing the game after I log off.

This is supposed to be a form of recreation, not a reproduction of our 24/7 society where people are virtually enslaved by cell phones and email. Just no thanks.

I *want* to be able to hang up.

[Zoltan]

I don't want to be still playing the game after I log off.

This is supposed to be a form of recreation, not a reproduction of our 24/7 society where people are virtually enslaved by cell phones and email. Just no thanks.

I *want* to be able to hang up.

I agree with Salt Merchant. Also, waiting for a return Waying from a logged off PC would drive me batshit insane with a couple of the characters I've played.

[Cerelum]

Make it toggleable and I'm totally down.

[Synthesis]

I don't want to be still playing the game after I log off.

This is supposed to be a form of recreation, not a reproduction of our 24/7 society where people are virtually enslaved by cell phones and email. Just no thanks.

I *want* to be able to hang up.

Uh, nobody's sending you e-mails or calling you.

When you log in to play the game you get messages pertaining to the game.

If you want to hang up, log out.

[Salt Merchant]

When you log in to play the game you get messages pertaining to the game.

In other words, I get the equivalent of IC emails and all the BS that attends it. Follow ups like "did you get my message?" "why haven't you responded yet?" "why haven't you solved my problem already?" "do you have more important things to do Mr. Commoner?" "why didn't you reply the moment you were available? (i.e. logged in)". And of course, if you're a merchant, "is my order ready yet" x 1000.

The first thing I'd have to do upon logging in is sort through my messages and start responding. You might as well just provide me with an office and some coffee to go with it.

What it all adds up to a further means for people to dig their hooks into you and make you their puppets.

[MarshallDFX]

I do agree it would be a bit too much like having a pile of emails stacked up.  Far more useful is that we choose people who have good availability for important roles.

[Synthesis]

So...it's better for countless other players to have to spam contact numerous times, log in at weird hours trying to catch you, and generally be completely out of touch, possibly for RL weeks, because you can't be arsed to sort through your messages?

self⋅ish
–adjective
1.    devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.
2.    characterized by or manifesting concern or care only for oneself: selfish motives.

[MarshallDFX]

Yes.  I am a self-utility maximizing consumer.  What else do you want out of me?

[Synthesis]

Yes.  I am a self-utility maximizing consumer.  What else do you want out of me?

In a community, maximizing your personal utility typically involves helping others maximize theirs.  Hence the idea of mutually beneficial exchanges.

[MarshallDFX]

Yes.  I am a self-utility maximizing consumer.  What else do you want out of me?

In a community, maximizing your personal utility typically involves helping others maximize theirs.  Hence the idea of mutually beneficial exchanges.

Well, we can debate the differences between gains from trade and holding preferences about other persons' utilities in another thread.

It seems the biggest criticism is what if somebody important is demanding your attention.  Or trying to Way with you desperately that they're being raided.  These emergency things would be kind of awkward to RP out why you didn't respond after the fact.

One way to fix that would be some identifier that lets you know that you're Waying an offline person?  But then if you have that, then you have a kind of stupid way of determining whether somebody is offline (otherwise it could just be barrier).

Is there a less awkward medium for delivering offline messages, as others have suggested?

[Synthesis]

Yes.  I am a self-utility maximizing consumer.  What else do you want out of me?

In a community, maximizing your personal utility typically involves helping others maximize theirs.  Hence the idea of mutually beneficial exchanges.

Well, we can debate the differences between gains from trade and holding preferences about other persons' utilities in another thread.

It seems the biggest criticism is what if somebody important is demanding your attention.  Or trying to Way with you desperately that they're being raided.  These emergency things would be kind of awkward to RP out why you didn't respond after the fact.

One way to fix that would be some identifier that lets you know that you're Waying an offline person?  But then if you have that, then you have a kind of stupid way of determining whether somebody is offline (otherwise it could just be barrier).

Is there a less awkward medium for delivering offline messages, as others have suggested?

I'm fairly confident that most players would be satisfied that at least the message was getting through, as opposed to sitting, waiting, and spamming contact to no avail.  I'm also fairly confident that the playerbase is mature enough to develop numerous plausible IC reasons why a response wasn't immediately forthcoming.

The fact that people go linkdead doesn't break the game, you know.

[MarshallDFX]

Yes.  I am a self-utility maximizing consumer.  What else do you want out of me?

In a community, maximizing your personal utility typically involves helping others maximize theirs.  Hence the idea of mutually beneficial exchanges.

Well, we can debate the differences between gains from trade and holding preferences about other persons' utilities in another thread.

It seems the biggest criticism is what if somebody important is demanding your attention.  Or trying to Way with you desperately that they're being raided.  These emergency things would be kind of awkward to RP out why you didn't respond after the fact.

One way to fix that would be some identifier that lets you know that you're Waying an offline person?  But then if you have that, then you have a kind of stupid way of determining whether somebody is offline (otherwise it could just be barrier).

Is there a less awkward medium for delivering offline messages, as others have suggested?

I'm fairly confident that most players would be satisfied that at least the message was getting through, as opposed to sitting, waiting, and spamming contact to no avail.  I'm also fairly confident that the playerbase is mature enough to develop numerous plausible IC reasons why a response wasn't immediately forthcoming.

The fact that people go linkdead doesn't break the game, you know.

And you would prefer this to something like a bank-like institution, where an NPC takes messages, then your character can pick them up (or not)?  I just like to know that when I find somebody's mind, I've actually found somebody who's online and can (or cannot/won't) respond.

[palomar]

If it's possible to leave Way messages with offline PCs, it brings up the question about certain other psionic abilities/skills/spells which also use the Way. If you can leave a message, why shouldn't it be possible to use these certain Way-depending things on offline PCs too? Personally I'm fine with the Way the way it is (no pun intended).

[Synthesis]

If it's possible to leave Way messages with offline PCs, it brings up the question about certain other psionic abilities/skills/spells which also use the Way. If you can leave a message, why shouldn't it be possible to use these certain Way-depending things on offline PCs too? Personally I'm fine with the Way the way it is (no pun intended).

It's pretty simple, really:  that's where you draw the line between realism and playability.

That being said, I can imagine a few mindbender skills (that may or may not exist) that could be reasonably applied to this tool without causing too much of a fuss.

[Cutthroat]

Hm.

If they are offline:
You contact the tall, muscular man with the Way, but he is unavailable. You may only leave messages with the 'psi' command.

(That solves the supposed problem of being bothered repeatedly. If a player is sending you messages like WHY ARENT U ANSWERIN ME?? when the contact message is unique, then they have other problems. Would you do that when you call a person with an answering machine?)

barrier

(That solves the problem of being contacted if you want to not be contacted. The togglability - that is a word now - is in the game already. Make it stay up like it does while you are logged out already.)

I don't really see what the problem is here. It will help those that want to use it, those that don't want to use it won't be bothered, and it will reduce the desire to communicate some things OOCly.

[palomar]

It would also have to be justified from the realism perspective, somehow. I know it isn't realistic that you cannot potentially reach a PC with the Way because said PC is offline, but then again I'm not so sure about delayed psi messages.

Additionally, it could be both a benefit and a disadvantage. It might make some things much smoother for some people (Hi Sarge, I want to join the Byn. Contact me? /Amos). It could make things easier for the Byn Sarge (or other leaders) but it could probably turn certain roles more into a job than they already are as well.

There is also potential for less interaction when PCs are actually online, say, if all Hunters in a GMH report in to their superior that nothing is going on or that they brought in X pelts/hides, there'd be less incentive for the leader PC to seek the employees out to get a report (and thus missing out on some RP and other random stuff).

In the case of an emergency, it could sometimes be awkward to explain to someone else why you didn't respond to Malik's distress call though there's certainly countless excuses to be made up.

Personally, even if I'd love to have the option to send someone currently offline the message that I want to speak with them when they get back, I'd -hate- having dozens of Way messages waiting on login. Of course, there's the barrier option for that... Hmm.

[Lizzie]

It would be easy to discover if someone is dead, simply by trying to contact them, if such a situation existed.

From what I was given to understand, that used to be the case (the ease in discovering someone was dead/logged out) and then they changed it because of abuse. Obviously, this means - something like this is just too easily abuseable, which is why you see nothing different when you try to contact someone who is logged out, than when you try someone who has max-barrier, or someone who is dead.

In addition I don't want to play the message-box catch-up game when I log in. I don't want to have to RP around having been informed by someone about something really important that my character *would* respond to immediately, but doesn't for the next 10 game-days, only to find out that as a result of her refusal to respond, people are dead. Or the other side of the coin:

How easy would it be, to simply refuse to answer psis, and when they ask you why you didn't answer them, you conveniently explan "I was logged out at the time." Built-in excuse to NOT deal with a situation you don't want to deal with.

The whole message thing..ugh. It was hard enough playing a role where you'd have four people in your head the second you logged in, and almost non-stop waying for the next two hours. I not only don't like the idea, I absolutely loathe the idea.

As for barrier...I have yet to play a character whose barrier was high enough that "people who truly needed me" were unable to break through it. Except that one character, who had so few stun points that I never bothered to even try using barrier at all.

[Cutthroat]

I suggested a couple of times now that barrier wouldn't break while you are offline. It would stay up, like it does currently when you log out. The next time you are logged in, put up a barrier before you log out. You'll see what I mean.

[Lizzie]

There's also a whole nuther situation..in which certain things are directly connected with the contact skill. You'd have to completely re-write all that OTHER stuff, just to implement a psionic voicemail for the convenience of a few people.

If Malik is dead, he'll stay dead til you log in.
If Templar Amos thinks you murdered his aid, he will think so still, or find reason to stop thinking so, until you log in.
If Talia rode your favorite horse off the shield wall. Both Talia and the horse will continue to be in deep shit until you log in.

There is nothing so dire, that you have to bother the -player- with a full tape of answering machine messages with.

[Lizzie]

I suggested a couple of times now that barrier wouldn't break while you are offline. It would stay up, like it does currently when you log out. The next time you are logged in, put up a barrier before you log out. You'll see what I mean.

Yes and not everyone is proficient with barrier, enough that they can instantly put one up within a few minutes of their needing to log out.

It took me an hour of trying to get my first one up with my current character. I only did it so I could say that I could. It isn't likely I'll ever try again, because my character has no need for it. I shouldn't have to spam-practice a skill just to prevent people from leaving me messages when I'm offfline.

[Cutthroat]

I suggested a couple of times now that barrier wouldn't break while you are offline. It would stay up, like it does currently when you log out. The next time you are logged in, put up a barrier before you log out. You'll see what I mean.

Yes and not everyone is proficient with barrier, enough that they can instantly put one up within a few minutes of their needing to log out.

It took me an hour of trying to get my first one up with my current character. I only did it so I could say that I could. It isn't likely I'll ever try again, because my character has no need for it. I shouldn't have to spam-practice a skill just to prevent people from leaving me messages when I'm offfline.

Then have an ooc flag that toggles it on/off. Forget the barrier idea. Does the idea as a whole still stand in the average situation?

When I read this original idea, I immediately thought of the mudmail system that other RPIs have. Primarily, you use that system to arrange playtimes so those things could be discussed. What if it worked so that the person knew you were trying to find you, but didn't receive anything? Like a psionic beeper rather than an answering machine.

You try to contact an offline person, and it shows the same thing as it does currently.

Offline person logs in, and sees:

Code Select Expand

The tall, muscular man tried to contact you 1 times.
The short, wiry woman tried to contact you 3 times.
.
.
.


I like this idea better, actually.

Think about it:
The only way you would be spammed up and bothered is if the number of sdescs exceeded your pagelength, and... that's just so very unlikely.
You still are 'in the loop' about who is trying to find you.
The game makes no distinction between dead characters and logged out ones.

It doesn't even have to list the amount of contact attempts.

[Lizzie]

If you want to send mudmail, you can. You just have to know who the player is. You can use the mudmail system in the game, or the GDB to send PMs, or post in clan folders. You can also e-mail the staff and ask them to help coordinate on your behalf.

If you want answering machine capabilities, play a cyberpunk mud that has them. Psionics work because the characters are actively capable of receiving and sending messages. If someone is dead, you would -not- be able to contact them. If someone whose barrier sucks and never uses it, is suddenly not able to be contacted, it's a pretty easy guess that they're dead. Which is why the game was changed in the first place such that in ALL cases, there is no difference in trying to contact someone who is dead or logged out. Not "logged out, with barrier on" or "logged out, but toggled to be unavailable." But "logged out, period."

If you're actively not playing your character, it means they are too busy to actually be wayed or are unable to be contacted. Leaving a message at the beep isn't going to change that fact.

[Ghost]

I like the idea of receiving Way messages when you are logged off.

And I don't really understand the standpoint of naysayers when the reason is "It will be like stacked emails".

Well, if you don't want to read what people sent you when you were off, don't.  Just press "l" key and hit enter 3 times and the room description will push it out of your screen.  Is it that difficult?  Really?

It will be in convenience for people who can use it.  Now, is it realistic?  Yes.  Your character is still living the virtual life over there, mind you, so s/he is available.

Is it helpful for PCs to communicate better?  Yes, definitely.

Oh, a few people don't like to see three lines of messages when they log in, and are too lazy to ignore them? Oh.. Sorry for thinking about something the game could actually benefit then.

[Zoltan]

No, Ghost, it's the sudden expectations that would be put on everyone that bugs me the most.

[Ghost]

Expectations of what?  Response messages?  As far as I can see it, you don't have to.  Just like currently, if you Way someone IG and if they don't respond, you Way again and you stop Waying if they don't respond.  That is what I usually do anyway. 

So if you are sending messages to someone and they are not responding back, eventually you will stop sending them.  I don't see the harm in this.

[MarshallDFX]

It would be easy to discover if someone is dead, simply by trying to contact them, if such a situation existed.

This is indeed a serious issue.

I don't see why offline-Waying is at all preferable to an NPC who holds messages for your PC.

[Lizzie]

Examples (including actual situations that have happened at one point or another):

You ARE logged in.

The templar ways you, and says, "I need this, immediately. OR, I need to hear, immediately, a damned good reason why I shouldn't have you arrested."

While you are logged in, you have the opportunity to make the decision on whether or not to respond.

You are NOT logged in.

The templar ways you, and says, "I need this, immediately. OR, I need to hear, immediately, a damned good reason why I shouldn't have you arrested."

You are not capable of responding, because you weren't logged in at the time. The templar, however, didn't know that. The next time you DO log in, and choose to ignore messages because you want to follow Ghost's advice, you bump into the templar - who immediately arrests you, and you can't lie and say you never knew he needed anything, because he DID get that message to you.

You have to go OOC to tell him you were logged out, and thus had absolutely no idea that you were needed immediately. Hopefully the player of the templar is a good sport and will let you off the hook, since you were not capable of responding, since you, the player, weren't even playing the game at the time.

NEXT example, using the same situation:

You can't stand this templar. You ARE logged in. He ways you. You ignore him, intentionally. You avoid actual run-ins with him for a couple of RL days. Finally you do bump into him, and he arrests you. You OOC to tell him you weren't logged in to get the message. He has no way of knowing otherwise, and hopefully, lets you off the hook.

This can happen, regularly, easily, with no accountability on either end. Characters can die as a direct result of simply not being logged in. Players can use "I wasn't logged in" as an excuse to justify pretty much anything, and no one would be able to prove otherwise, except the staff, but by the time it gets to that level, it's too late.

I'll repeat: if you need so badly to send a message to a character whose player is not logged in, then use the staff, or mudmail, or PMs, or post on the clan board. If you don't need to send the message so badly, then you don't need to send it when the player isn't logged in to hear it anyway.

[Salt Merchant]

No, Ghost, it's the sudden expectations that would be put on everyone that bugs me the most.

Exactly.

If someone -really- has to get through to my character, that person can hire a messenger or three to strobe with the Way anyhow.

[Salt Merchant]

Expectations of what?  Response messages?  As far as I can see it, you don't have to.  Just like currently, if you Way someone IG and if they don't respond, you Way again and you stop Waying if they don't respond.  That is what I usually do anyway.  

So if you are sending messages to someone and they are not responding back, eventually you will stop sending them.  I don't see the harm in this.

It should be obvious that there are sometimes IC consequences for overtly ignoring people.

[Ghost]

I think there are a lot of strawman flying around.

First of all, since 2005, I have not seen a templar being dick enough to arrest someone for not responding to Ways, and I did have experiences with a bunch of them.  I admit after 2008 I have not played regularly for a long time but still.  If you do not respond to a templar, in my experience, you are off his list of potential contacts.  He never asks anything of you.  Since 2005 ish, If someone did have an experience with a templar arresting them and killing them for not Waying back, please tell me (of course if it is 2009 or older news).  If you have, then I just had good luck.
A templar arresting you for not responding could very well happen perhaps 7 RL years ago, back when you were scared of templars ICly AND OOCly.  


Now we are making IC excuses as to why we can not contact someone.  "They are probably resting" "They probably have their mind blocked" even though you damn well know there is not a barrier strong enough to resist your contact.  At all.

Why not say, "my mind was blocked Lord/Lady Templar, I did not get your message" and the other party would understand you were offline.  Or actually give an offline echo to the Wayer so they would understand.  If a templar's player ignores the fact that things are OOC, they do get the slap from the clouds so... They don't.

[MarshallDFX]

I just prefer to RP with online people, as opposed to offline ones.

>contact Amos
You contact the tall, muscular man.
>psi 'Ey Amos, wanna head to the bar?
You send a telepathic message to the tall, muscular man:
     "'Ey Amos, wanna head to the bar?"
>
>
> *wait wait wait wait*
>
>cease
You dissolve the psychic link.
>contact Malik
>You contact the tall, muscle-tressed man
psi 'Ey Malik, wanna head to the bar?
You send a telepathic message to the tall, muscle-tressed man:
    "'Ey Malik, banna head to the bar?"
>
>
>
> *wait wait wait, contact and try to get everybody you know to respond*
>
>think -irritated Oh for fuck's sake.
Feeling irritated, You think:
   "Oh for fuck's sake."

[musashi]

This already happens, just change those psionic messages with failed contact messages and change the think to: For fuck's sake is everyone sleeping!?

There are a million reasons why a PC could not be responding to a Way at that particular moment, and we use these same excuses to justify why an NPC did not respond to our Way message until way after we sent it to them.

"I was training/crafting/hunting and didn't want to run the risk of passing out while doing that."
"I was having another conversation with <insert more important VNPC than the person in question> at the time, my bad."

As for Lizzie's straw man templar situation ... I don't think that has a leg to stand on as a legitament concern. I mean think about it.

You log in and see a message from a big bad templar asking for a reason why they shouldn't kill you for something or another ...

You could ignore them and try to run, but at that point you're making an IC choice to not reply to the templar and they should treat you as having tried to ignore them if they bump into you again. Or ... if you want to reply, just way them back! You'll get through whether or not they're online and you can explain yourself to them via your own Way messages and wait for their reply to you, either when you're both online, or over the Way while offline if you keep missing one another.

For that Templar to want to kill you for ignoring their Way messages you would have to log in, and pretty much bump into the templar immediately afterwards before you even had a chance to try contacting anyone ... and then the templar would need to be enough of a dick not to acknowledge you're "I'm verry sorry I was just about to contact you and explain. I just woke up."

And if they kept on with the: "Why didn't you reply earlier" line of questioning ... just use an excuse the ones above.

And on the "it would be easy to figure out if people are dea" line of reasoning ... to me, logging out and say ... changing your play times to hide your PC's mind from other people who would want to find you for better or for worse ... seems a lot like using OOC action to affect IC consequence, I mean ... how can a person justify that? Really?

[Gimfalisette]

My personal preference for a solution to the situation of offline communication would be the expansion of literacy and installation of a robust letter-delivery system which would allow messages to be mundanely intercepted, and retained for the historical record.

Even when I am playing a super-busy, highly-in-demand PC, I don't really feel like it's so difficult for people to get in touch with me (or one of my minions) that there would need to be some change to the Way system to accomodate.

I would not want to see the Way system expanded rather than see the in-game writing system expanded. And if the writing system was expanded, I don't really see that there would be a need to expand the Way system.

[Zoltan]

My personal preference for a solution to the situation of offline communication would be the expansion of literacy and installation of a robust letter-delivery system which would allow messages to be mundanely intercepted, and retained for the historical record.

This is the ideal solution, in my mind. Unfortunately, it'll likely have to wait for Arm 2.

[Rhyden]

I too like the intent of this idea. Maybe only allow one way per PC while the receiving PC is offline. This could also help coordinate ooc times through IC means.

Limiting it to once would be foolish.

I meant to cut down spam upon logging in, but you bring up a good point.

My personal preference for a solution to the situation of offline communication would be the expansion of literacy and installation of a robust letter-delivery system which would allow messages to be mundanely intercepted, and retained for the historical record.

This is the ideal solution, in my mind. Unfortunately, it'll likely have to wait for 2012.

What Gimf said. I'd love to see a more flexible bulletin board system to coordinate ooc playtimes and rpts IG. Basically, I want to rid the GDB clan forums for the sole purpose that anyone could be reading them.

[Gimfalisette]

What Gimf said. I'd love to see a more flexible bulletin board system to coordinate ooc playtimes and rpts IG. Basically, I want to rid the GDB clan forums for the sole purpose that anyone could be reading them.

Well, that's not really what I meant. I meant I want to use writing on physical objects in game (paper, scrolls, books) more widely to communicate IC info. But there will always be a need to communicate OOCly as well; certain things simply cannot be coordinated ICly.

[a strange shadow]

I'd like to see more use of the bulletin boards. Change them to vnpc objects, such as, "A group of people gossip near the bar."

[Gimfalisette]

I'd like to see more use of the bulletin boards. Change them to vnpc objects, such as, "A group of people gossip near the bar."

More use of bulletin boards would be workable under two conditions:

1. Messages need to automatically roll off so that there is always room for 1 more message and the board doesn't get full.

2. The board is more specific to a particular location, such as a tavern or market area, because currently they are "the whole city is talking about this" and thus you (ok, me) will get smacked by the imms for using them too much.

[Gimfalisette]

Actually, come to think of it, I believe we've previously discussed turning the IC bulletin boards into NPCs who can spread rumors, instead. The NPC would keep only the rumors they have themselves been told, and they'd want a bribe in exchange, and possibly be bribe-able to coerce the info out of them as to who told them the rumor. I'd much prefer that to bulletin boards at all.

But that's still not a substitute for a better system of directing messages to one particular PC.

[Rhyden]

What Gimf said. I'd love to see a more flexible bulletin board system to coordinate ooc playtimes and rpts IG. Basically, I want to rid the GDB clan forums for the sole purpose that anyone could be reading them.

Well, that's not really what I meant. I meant I want to use writing on physical objects in game (paper, scrolls, books) more widely to communicate IC info. But there will always be a need to communicate OOCly as well; certain things simply cannot be coordinated ICly.

I want both! But like Zoltan said, we'll have to wait for Reborn for your literacy idea.

[AmandaGreathouse]

For examples of people not responding while logged out, I can think of a very simple, very subtle, and not 'overly' jarring solution.

While the PC is a VNPC and recieving messages, instead of the sender seeing that they send a telepathic message to the pretty, tressy-curled woman, they see they send it to 'a' pretty, tressy-curled woman.

Since already, most NPCs have 'a' instead of 'the' to come before their sdesc.

And, really, I don't see the issue with someone being able to tell if you're dead by not being able to contact you with the way for a long ass time. If your character is around and a VNPC all the time, the other player 'should' be able to take not being able to find your PCs head for an IG month to take it as your PC is dead/barriered, not trying to guess if it's that or that YOU the PLAYER have simply changed playtimes.

Though I do think that being able to toggle whether or not you get messages while offline is a good idea. I wouldn't use it, but it's a good idea. People love options.

[Lizzie]

Amanda, the "solution" you offer is pretty much how it used to be, until people abused the knowledge that someone was not online, by using the Way to find that information out. And then, that ability to know, was removed.

People would contact someone..and see something different when you simply couldn't find their mind, vs. when they were logged out/dead. You would KNOW- that the person was not logged in. And then, you would KNOW< that it was safe to rob their apartment. Or fuck their husband. Or kill their partner. Or set up the evil deed, knowing that your character would be oblivious, because you know, by using the Way to find a "special message" that the player is currently not available to access their character - whether due to being dead, or not logged on.

This is not a straw man. It is EXACTLY how it used to be. I've read the threads dating back to when they made the change.

And since that isn't an option, then you end up with something that does -not- let the sender know, that the receiver's player was not there to respond. When that happens, the sender has no way of knowing if they should be pissed that someone IS around, but didn't respond, or if the player of the sender needs to just let it slide, because the player of the receiver was not logged in.

Furthermore, if the character is dead, the sender would not have to wait even a day to find out. ALl they'd have to do is try and contact the character. If the sender was unable to contact them, then they're dead. If they are able to contact them, then they're not dead. Unless the player of the receiver had a good enough barrier that they could actually put one up before the player logged out. Which - most new characters can't do, and require IC practice to get good at it, and why? So that they can get past an OOC device such as their player not being logged in and not wanting to get IC messages while they're not logged in?

No sense. It makes..zero sense. Not to mention the annoyance of logging in to discover that you have a dozen messages..

[Synthesis]

And since that isn't an option, then you end up with something that does -not- let the sender know, that the receiver's player was not there to respond. When that happens, the sender has no way of knowing if they should be pissed that someone IS around, but didn't respond, or if the player of the sender needs to just let it slide, because the player of the receiver was not logged in.

What's the problem with this, exactly?  If someone delays getting back to you via the Way and doesn't have a valid excuse, I think it would be perfectly reasonable to be peeved.  I certainly don't think it would be any more annoying than say, not being able to contact said character AT ALL because they're logged out.  After all:  what's to stop people now from accusing people who are logged out from using a barrier to avoid receiving their intended messages?  The answer:  common fucking sense among the playerbase--exactly what would prevail if the proposed system were implemented.

Furthermore, if the character is dead, the sender would not have to wait even a day to find out. ALl they'd have to do is try and contact the character. If the sender was unable to contact them, then they're dead. If they are able to contact them, then they're not dead. Unless the player of the receiver had a good enough barrier that they could actually put one up before the player logged out. Which - most new characters can't do, and require IC practice to get good at it, and why? So that they can get past an OOC device such as their player not being logged in and not wanting to get IC messages while they're not logged in?

Why should you have to wait for MONTHS to declare someone dead?  If someone is your employee and you talk to them every single day...wouldn't you reasonably notice if they turn up missing and drop off the Waydar?

No sense. It makes..zero sense. Not to mention the annoyance of logging in to discover that you have a dozen messages..

So in short:  yes, it does make sense.  At least, just as much sense as the current system.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Agree with Synthesis here.

Why should you have to wait for MONTHS to declare someone dead?  If someone is your employee and you talk to them every single day...wouldn't you reasonably notice if they turn up missing and drop off the Waydar?

[more words]

in short:  yes, it does make sense.  At least, just as much sense as the current system.

[musashi]

Ugh, Lizzie's ideas make my brain hurt.  

[Zoltan]

Lizzie's ideas make me nod emphatically in agreement. 

Seriously, though, I agree on absolutely every point. Of course, this is coming from the guy who felt a little twinky when I gave the minions in my last clan an invitation to PM me a play time if they -absolutely, positively needed to see my characterbutitslikehesneveraroundohgod-.

I think what it all comes down to is that in my personal experience, and in my opinion, a change like this just isn't necessary.

[flurry]

I wouldn't want to see something like this, either. The thought of having this in place while playing a leadership role is the stuff of nightmares. I can imagine being flooded with various questions and requests, if I chose to leave the option 'on', and then of course expected to deal with all of it. (I can remember, hardly more than a year ago, facing some pretty harsh IC consequences from a templar, apparently due to my own OOC availability. This would only make situations like that worse, IMHO, but setting up even more unrealistic expectations of players of leader characters. I don't want my characters to be reachable around the clock.)

I think the unreliability of communication in Zalanthas is a good thing. Yes, it is frustrating at times, especially for newer players. But this seems like it would take things much too far in the other direction. It would become trivially easy to have discussions over the Way, back and forth, over extended periods of time as if corresponding by email. That seems like a radical change to the game, unless I'm misunderstanding the proposal somehow.

[Synthesis]

It would become trivially easy to have discussions over the Way, back and forth, over extended periods of time as if corresponding by email.

What exactly is the problem with this?

As opposed to:  not having discussions at all, because you can't sufficiently coordinate playtimes?

The opposition currently seems to be:  "we've adjusted to the nonsense and frustration we already have to deal with.  Don't rock the boat!"

[flurry]

As others have suggested, I'd rather have literacy or ooc bulletin boards over psionic email.

[MarshallDFX]

This already happens, just change those psionic messages with failed contact messages and change the think to: For fuck's sake is everyone sleeping!?

Except it is a lot faster, and I don't sit around wondering whether they just missed the way due to movement spam, or what.

Definitely definitely prefer a letter-delivery/NPC message holder system.

[Salt Merchant]

I don't want to log in to a bunch of messages telling me someone needs this, and someone else demands that, and someone else asks for a third thing. Frankly, it would just discourage me from logging in at all.

Pity the poor leader character that is immediately inundanted with his underling's problems, who doesn't even get that blessed few minutes of independence before the contacts begin.

If anything, I think the Way should be removed except for mindbenders. Why does the game need it? People used to argue it was to help characters find each other for some RP, but the staff stance seems to indicate this is no longer a concern (e.g removing 'who c').

[spawnloser]

First, if anyone suggests that the Way should give a different message when someone is offline versus online, I will kindly ask you to sit this one out.  When using an IC skill/ability, it should never tell you if someone else is logged in... because that's OOC information.

Second, I will never play a GMH member again if anything like this goes in.  I expect everyone currently playing one to throttle anyone in support of this idea, if it goes in.

Finally, still noone has addressed the targetting issue.  The way the code works, we could have 1000 Amoses that are all "the tall, strapping man."  How does one verify that the message will get to the right person?

[Lizzie]

100% in agreement with Spawnloser.

Ergo, we are both correct.

[Tzurahro]

We could mail out electric shock-collars to some players, triggered by such ALERTS when their PC has been contacted by the Way when off-line.

Just... you know... as a thought.

[Gimfalisette]

We could mail out electric shock-collars to some players, triggered by such ALERTS when their PC has been contacted by the Way when off-line.

Just... you know... as a thought.

OK, now I'm behind the idea. Objective obviously is to not get a collar put on me, while making maximum use of buzzing another player's collar.

[Myrdryn]

We could mail out electric shock-collars to some players, triggered by such ALERTS when their PC has been contacted by the Way when off-line.

Just... you know... as a thought.

Send the way messages via SMS instant message.

[AmandaGreathouse]

We could mail out electric shock-collars to some players, triggered by such ALERTS when their PC has been contacted by the Way when off-line.

Just... you know... as a thought.

OK, now I'm behind the idea. Objective obviously is to not get a collar put on me, while making maximum use of buzzing another player's collar.

Oh? I can haz collar, Gimf?

Also:
 Though it wasn't for a ridiculously long amount of time, I recently played a leader pc roll myself, and in a clan with what amounted to about 20 underling pcs. I never had time to do much more than give orders and take reports as it was, but I'm still behind the idea.

[Synthesis]

This just in:  player plays middle-management PC and has to perform middle-management duties.


More at 11.

[flurry]

Of course those roles involve management duties. But there have to be reasonable limits to what can be expected of players willing to take on those roles. This kind of change would alter those expectations in a major way, and not for the better, I think.

[musashi]

100% in agreement with Spawnloser.

Ergo, we are both correct.

*facepalm* The OP did not suggest people should get a different message when someone is online vs. when they are offline. You have both missed ... ... the point.

[mansa]

We could mail out electric shock-collars to some players, triggered by such ALERTS when their PC has been contacted by the Way when off-line.

Just... you know... as a thought.

Send the way messages via SMS instant message.

Oooooooo.  I like.

[Salt Merchant]

This just in... Armageddon is a game, not a primary responsibility.

[musashi]

This just in... Armageddon is a game, not a primary responsibility.

Stop throwing up strawmen. No one is talking about trying to turn Armageddon into work, you're just pretending that and rebuking your own imagination.

[Niamh]

The Way is not like a telephone with voice mail.  The Way is vague and mysterious.

*cue spooky music*

[Salt Merchant]

This just in... Armageddon is a game, not a primary responsibility.

Stop throwing up strawmen. No one is talking about trying to turn Armageddon into work, you're just pretending that and rebuking your own imagination.

It may not be your intention to make Armageddon more work-like (I never said it was), but it is demonstratably a consequence of your proposal. That is what I'm responding to, and in fact, I think I've already made that point ("demonstratably a consequence") pretty convincingly.

[musashi]

I think you're misusing the word "demonstratably".
Subbing in the word "perhaps" or "maybe" would sum your position up a lot better, actually.

[Cerelum]

I honestly don't know why any of you are still posting in this thread anymore really...

I think there is an immense love of beating a dead horse.

[MarshallDFX]

I think you're misusing the word "demonstratably".
Subbing in the word "perhaps" or "maybe" would sum your position up a lot better, actually.

Well that depends on what your definition if "is" is...

[spawnloser]

*facepalm* The OP did not suggest people should get a different message when someone is online vs. when they are offline. You have both missed ... ... the point.

No, I didn't.  Everyone's suggesting ways to make it possible/workable to way people offline.  Suddenly it's being suggested that you get a different message as part of this process.  Just because the OP didn't suggest it didn't mean that I can't object to that rider added on by others, which is what I was doing.  In fact, I seriously objected to THAT part because this was something that used to be the case (you got a different message when you tried to contact someone offline versus online) and it got changed to the way things are now, where you do not get OOC information from IC means.  I was attacking only a PART of my problem with that paragraph.  Don't strawman me.

This just in:  player plays middle-management PC and has to perform middle-management duties.

This just in... Armageddon is a game, not a primary responsibility.

Stop throwing up strawmen. No one is talking about trying to turn Armageddon into work, you're just pretending that and rebuking your own imagination.

Said the pot to the kettle, first off.  Second, what Salt Merchant said has a point, if you stopped paying attention to the specific words and started looking through an entire conversation, the entire thread, instead of cherry picking the posts you want to respond to... like you did to me, and have now done again.  Synthesis sure as hell sounds like he's saying that if you play a Merchant, you're signing up for being spammed... being nothing but a vending machine, and let me tell you, having known many people that have played merchant family members as well as having played one myself, the feeling that you're nothing but a vending machine to the other players is why most people store their merchant family member characters, in my experience.  It disconnects them from the game and their character, because their character does nothing but their jobs... which means they're doing nothing but piloting their characters around doing these jobs... which makes it something of a job for the players, and less of a game.  They lose joy in playing that character and lose joy in the game until they get tired of it, stop logging in as much and then finally store their characters.

If this idea was implemented, it would only increase that feeling... make it worse... make the game a job for some people because suddenly voicemail and ansaphones have been invented for your head.  No.



Noone yet has addressed how you would target the offline person.  At this rate, I don't think anyone ever will, which means this idea remains wholly without viability anyway.

[Zoltan]

I think you're misusing the word "demonstratably".
Subbing in the word "perhaps" or "maybe" would sum your position up a lot better, actually.

"Highly likely," then. I totally agree with Salt Merchant.

I just don't see the absolute -need- for something like this being implemented. Not once in all the time I've been playing have I needed something like this. If you can't find someone's mind to speak directly to them with the Way, there are other avenues. Please don't take away my excuse that I didn't know something because I -just wasn't playing-. Seriously, Musashi, have you ever played a Byn sergeant or GMH agent or something like that before? There is an -extremely- high probability that the page scroll on the "while you were out" messages would be downright obnoxious.

And then some say, "well, just toggle it off (if toggleable) or ignore it." That's fine, but most everyone would likely have the expectation that you -did- see the Wayings they sent you. There's just no good IC excuse. Crap, there isn't -now- for being logged out, but at least most everyone understands IG that if you were seriously unreachable for many hours during the day, you were just not logged into the game world.

Leadership roles have enough expectations laid on them as it is without something like this being put in. Other than that, I can just throw in my personal opinion again that I would -really- hate to continuously be able to psi someone who just isn't logged on and won't respond. Like the thought of it just chills me. I would get irritated very quickly, but maybe that's just me.

Then there are the inconsistencies. Psions have already been mentioned, but perhaps there are magickal things that -should- be possible to do, too, if your PC is psionically available? And you know what? Even as a -mundane-, if I'm able to find your mind, I want to be able to find your body. Either a character's all the way out of the game, or they're all the way in. That's how it is now, and that's how I would prefer it, personally.

[Kankfly]

Why not just code a bunch of NPCs that read/write, and then, if you want to leave a message to a specific someone, pay them (amount) sids, and then they write it down for you, and then you can just go and ask them if they have any message for you, and then they'll read it out to you, and then

[Bast]

Would it be more preferrable to have a templar run message service in game, where you can pay a few coins to leave a message, people can pick up their messages by going there, and possibly sneaky or templar skills allowing a player to "sniff" other people's messages?

I this idea...A while ago I was talking to someone about this. My thoughts were that its silly that you can way someone from pretty much anywhere (save a few special places). There should be a range on waying people. I thought it would be cool that if they were too far away you could use a mail system. Have a office where you tell a scribe what you want the letter to say and pay coin to them to send your letter. The person getting the letter would have to stop in and see if they have any messages (and likely have to pay someone at their city office to read it to them). You could even go another step and have it so the dude running the mail could be intercepted on route and pc's who could read (like Templar) could intercept your messages...perhappes even forge a fake note to give misinformation.

[Aaron Goulet]

Would it be more preferrable to have a templar run message service in game, where you can pay a few coins to leave a message, people can pick up their messages by going there, and possibly sneaky or templar skills allowing a player to "sniff" other people's messages?

I this idea...A while ago I was talking to someone about this. My thoughts were that its silly that you can way someone from pretty much anywhere (save a few special places). There should be a range on waying people. I thought it would be cool that if they were too far away you could use a mail system. Have a office where you tell a scribe what you want the letter to say and pay coin to them to send your letter. The person getting the letter would have to stop in and see if they have any messages (and likely have to pay someone at their city office to read it to them). You could even go another step and have it so the dude running the mail could be intercepted on route and pc's who could read (like Templar) could intercept your messages...perhappes even forge a fake note to give misinformation.

Useful? Definitely. Realistic? Possibly (very few commoners are granted the gift of literacy by their betters).  The only challenge I see with this idea is the amount of work it would take for the staff to implement such a system, especially when it comes to having the messages carried by an actual NPC to allow for interceptions, as you mentioned.