An Idea about Waying Offline People

[palomar]

If it's possible to leave Way messages with offline PCs, it brings up the question about certain other psionic abilities/skills/spells which also use the Way. If you can leave a message, why shouldn't it be possible to use these certain Way-depending things on offline PCs too? Personally I'm fine with the Way the way it is (no pun intended).

[Synthesis]

If it's possible to leave Way messages with offline PCs, it brings up the question about certain other psionic abilities/skills/spells which also use the Way. If you can leave a message, why shouldn't it be possible to use these certain Way-depending things on offline PCs too? Personally I'm fine with the Way the way it is (no pun intended).

It's pretty simple, really:  that's where you draw the line between realism and playability.

That being said, I can imagine a few mindbender skills (that may or may not exist) that could be reasonably applied to this tool without causing too much of a fuss.

[Cutthroat]

Hm.

If they are offline:
You contact the tall, muscular man with the Way, but he is unavailable. You may only leave messages with the 'psi' command.

(That solves the supposed problem of being bothered repeatedly. If a player is sending you messages like WHY ARENT U ANSWERIN ME?? when the contact message is unique, then they have other problems. Would you do that when you call a person with an answering machine?)

barrier

(That solves the problem of being contacted if you want to not be contacted. The togglability - that is a word now - is in the game already. Make it stay up like it does while you are logged out already.)

I don't really see what the problem is here. It will help those that want to use it, those that don't want to use it won't be bothered, and it will reduce the desire to communicate some things OOCly.

[palomar]

It would also have to be justified from the realism perspective, somehow. I know it isn't realistic that you cannot potentially reach a PC with the Way because said PC is offline, but then again I'm not so sure about delayed psi messages.

Additionally, it could be both a benefit and a disadvantage. It might make some things much smoother for some people (Hi Sarge, I want to join the Byn. Contact me? /Amos). It could make things easier for the Byn Sarge (or other leaders) but it could probably turn certain roles more into a job than they already are as well.

There is also potential for less interaction when PCs are actually online, say, if all Hunters in a GMH report in to their superior that nothing is going on or that they brought in X pelts/hides, there'd be less incentive for the leader PC to seek the employees out to get a report (and thus missing out on some RP and other random stuff).

In the case of an emergency, it could sometimes be awkward to explain to someone else why you didn't respond to Malik's distress call though there's certainly countless excuses to be made up.

Personally, even if I'd love to have the option to send someone currently offline the message that I want to speak with them when they get back, I'd -hate- having dozens of Way messages waiting on login. Of course, there's the barrier option for that... Hmm.

[Lizzie]

It would be easy to discover if someone is dead, simply by trying to contact them, if such a situation existed.

From what I was given to understand, that used to be the case (the ease in discovering someone was dead/logged out) and then they changed it because of abuse. Obviously, this means - something like this is just too easily abuseable, which is why you see nothing different when you try to contact someone who is logged out, than when you try someone who has max-barrier, or someone who is dead.

In addition I don't want to play the message-box catch-up game when I log in. I don't want to have to RP around having been informed by someone about something really important that my character *would* respond to immediately, but doesn't for the next 10 game-days, only to find out that as a result of her refusal to respond, people are dead. Or the other side of the coin:

How easy would it be, to simply refuse to answer psis, and when they ask you why you didn't answer them, you conveniently explan "I was logged out at the time." Built-in excuse to NOT deal with a situation you don't want to deal with.

The whole message thing..ugh. It was hard enough playing a role where you'd have four people in your head the second you logged in, and almost non-stop waying for the next two hours. I not only don't like the idea, I absolutely loathe the idea.

As for barrier...I have yet to play a character whose barrier was high enough that "people who truly needed me" were unable to break through it. Except that one character, who had so few stun points that I never bothered to even try using barrier at all.

[Cutthroat]

I suggested a couple of times now that barrier wouldn't break while you are offline. It would stay up, like it does currently when you log out. The next time you are logged in, put up a barrier before you log out. You'll see what I mean.

[Lizzie]

There's also a whole nuther situation..in which certain things are directly connected with the contact skill. You'd have to completely re-write all that OTHER stuff, just to implement a psionic voicemail for the convenience of a few people.

If Malik is dead, he'll stay dead til you log in.
If Templar Amos thinks you murdered his aid, he will think so still, or find reason to stop thinking so, until you log in.
If Talia rode your favorite horse off the shield wall. Both Talia and the horse will continue to be in deep shit until you log in.

There is nothing so dire, that you have to bother the -player- with a full tape of answering machine messages with.

[Lizzie]

I suggested a couple of times now that barrier wouldn't break while you are offline. It would stay up, like it does currently when you log out. The next time you are logged in, put up a barrier before you log out. You'll see what I mean.

Yes and not everyone is proficient with barrier, enough that they can instantly put one up within a few minutes of their needing to log out.

It took me an hour of trying to get my first one up with my current character. I only did it so I could say that I could. It isn't likely I'll ever try again, because my character has no need for it. I shouldn't have to spam-practice a skill just to prevent people from leaving me messages when I'm offfline.

[Cutthroat]

I suggested a couple of times now that barrier wouldn't break while you are offline. It would stay up, like it does currently when you log out. The next time you are logged in, put up a barrier before you log out. You'll see what I mean.

Yes and not everyone is proficient with barrier, enough that they can instantly put one up within a few minutes of their needing to log out.

It took me an hour of trying to get my first one up with my current character. I only did it so I could say that I could. It isn't likely I'll ever try again, because my character has no need for it. I shouldn't have to spam-practice a skill just to prevent people from leaving me messages when I'm offfline.

Then have an ooc flag that toggles it on/off. Forget the barrier idea. Does the idea as a whole still stand in the average situation?

When I read this original idea, I immediately thought of the mudmail system that other RPIs have. Primarily, you use that system to arrange playtimes so those things could be discussed. What if it worked so that the person knew you were trying to find you, but didn't receive anything? Like a psionic beeper rather than an answering machine.

You try to contact an offline person, and it shows the same thing as it does currently.

Offline person logs in, and sees:

Code Select Expand

The tall, muscular man tried to contact you 1 times.
The short, wiry woman tried to contact you 3 times.
.
.
.


I like this idea better, actually.

Think about it:
The only way you would be spammed up and bothered is if the number of sdescs exceeded your pagelength, and... that's just so very unlikely.
You still are 'in the loop' about who is trying to find you.
The game makes no distinction between dead characters and logged out ones.

It doesn't even have to list the amount of contact attempts.

[Lizzie]

If you want to send mudmail, you can. You just have to know who the player is. You can use the mudmail system in the game, or the GDB to send PMs, or post in clan folders. You can also e-mail the staff and ask them to help coordinate on your behalf.

If you want answering machine capabilities, play a cyberpunk mud that has them. Psionics work because the characters are actively capable of receiving and sending messages. If someone is dead, you would -not- be able to contact them. If someone whose barrier sucks and never uses it, is suddenly not able to be contacted, it's a pretty easy guess that they're dead. Which is why the game was changed in the first place such that in ALL cases, there is no difference in trying to contact someone who is dead or logged out. Not "logged out, with barrier on" or "logged out, but toggled to be unavailable." But "logged out, period."

If you're actively not playing your character, it means they are too busy to actually be wayed or are unable to be contacted. Leaving a message at the beep isn't going to change that fact.

[Ghost]

I like the idea of receiving Way messages when you are logged off.

And I don't really understand the standpoint of naysayers when the reason is "It will be like stacked emails".

Well, if you don't want to read what people sent you when you were off, don't.  Just press "l" key and hit enter 3 times and the room description will push it out of your screen.  Is it that difficult?  Really?

It will be in convenience for people who can use it.  Now, is it realistic?  Yes.  Your character is still living the virtual life over there, mind you, so s/he is available.

Is it helpful for PCs to communicate better?  Yes, definitely.

Oh, a few people don't like to see three lines of messages when they log in, and are too lazy to ignore them? Oh.. Sorry for thinking about something the game could actually benefit then.

[Zoltan]

No, Ghost, it's the sudden expectations that would be put on everyone that bugs me the most.

[Ghost]

Expectations of what?  Response messages?  As far as I can see it, you don't have to.  Just like currently, if you Way someone IG and if they don't respond, you Way again and you stop Waying if they don't respond.  That is what I usually do anyway. 

So if you are sending messages to someone and they are not responding back, eventually you will stop sending them.  I don't see the harm in this.

[MarshallDFX]

It would be easy to discover if someone is dead, simply by trying to contact them, if such a situation existed.

This is indeed a serious issue.

I don't see why offline-Waying is at all preferable to an NPC who holds messages for your PC.

[Lizzie]

Examples (including actual situations that have happened at one point or another):

You ARE logged in.

The templar ways you, and says, "I need this, immediately. OR, I need to hear, immediately, a damned good reason why I shouldn't have you arrested."

While you are logged in, you have the opportunity to make the decision on whether or not to respond.

You are NOT logged in.

The templar ways you, and says, "I need this, immediately. OR, I need to hear, immediately, a damned good reason why I shouldn't have you arrested."

You are not capable of responding, because you weren't logged in at the time. The templar, however, didn't know that. The next time you DO log in, and choose to ignore messages because you want to follow Ghost's advice, you bump into the templar - who immediately arrests you, and you can't lie and say you never knew he needed anything, because he DID get that message to you.

You have to go OOC to tell him you were logged out, and thus had absolutely no idea that you were needed immediately. Hopefully the player of the templar is a good sport and will let you off the hook, since you were not capable of responding, since you, the player, weren't even playing the game at the time.

NEXT example, using the same situation:

You can't stand this templar. You ARE logged in. He ways you. You ignore him, intentionally. You avoid actual run-ins with him for a couple of RL days. Finally you do bump into him, and he arrests you. You OOC to tell him you weren't logged in to get the message. He has no way of knowing otherwise, and hopefully, lets you off the hook.

This can happen, regularly, easily, with no accountability on either end. Characters can die as a direct result of simply not being logged in. Players can use "I wasn't logged in" as an excuse to justify pretty much anything, and no one would be able to prove otherwise, except the staff, but by the time it gets to that level, it's too late.

I'll repeat: if you need so badly to send a message to a character whose player is not logged in, then use the staff, or mudmail, or PMs, or post on the clan board. If you don't need to send the message so badly, then you don't need to send it when the player isn't logged in to hear it anyway.

[Salt Merchant]

No, Ghost, it's the sudden expectations that would be put on everyone that bugs me the most.

Exactly.

If someone -really- has to get through to my character, that person can hire a messenger or three to strobe with the Way anyhow.

[Salt Merchant]

Expectations of what?  Response messages?  As far as I can see it, you don't have to.  Just like currently, if you Way someone IG and if they don't respond, you Way again and you stop Waying if they don't respond.  That is what I usually do anyway.  

So if you are sending messages to someone and they are not responding back, eventually you will stop sending them.  I don't see the harm in this.

It should be obvious that there are sometimes IC consequences for overtly ignoring people.

[Ghost]

I think there are a lot of strawman flying around.

First of all, since 2005, I have not seen a templar being dick enough to arrest someone for not responding to Ways, and I did have experiences with a bunch of them.  I admit after 2008 I have not played regularly for a long time but still.  If you do not respond to a templar, in my experience, you are off his list of potential contacts.  He never asks anything of you.  Since 2005 ish, If someone did have an experience with a templar arresting them and killing them for not Waying back, please tell me (of course if it is 2009 or older news).  If you have, then I just had good luck.
A templar arresting you for not responding could very well happen perhaps 7 RL years ago, back when you were scared of templars ICly AND OOCly.  


Now we are making IC excuses as to why we can not contact someone.  "They are probably resting" "They probably have their mind blocked" even though you damn well know there is not a barrier strong enough to resist your contact.  At all.

Why not say, "my mind was blocked Lord/Lady Templar, I did not get your message" and the other party would understand you were offline.  Or actually give an offline echo to the Wayer so they would understand.  If a templar's player ignores the fact that things are OOC, they do get the slap from the clouds so... They don't.

[MarshallDFX]

I just prefer to RP with online people, as opposed to offline ones.

>contact Amos
You contact the tall, muscular man.
>psi 'Ey Amos, wanna head to the bar?
You send a telepathic message to the tall, muscular man:
     "'Ey Amos, wanna head to the bar?"
>
>
> *wait wait wait wait*
>
>cease
You dissolve the psychic link.
>contact Malik
>You contact the tall, muscle-tressed man
psi 'Ey Malik, wanna head to the bar?
You send a telepathic message to the tall, muscle-tressed man:
    "'Ey Malik, banna head to the bar?"
>
>
>
> *wait wait wait, contact and try to get everybody you know to respond*
>
>think -irritated Oh for fuck's sake.
Feeling irritated, You think:
   "Oh for fuck's sake."

[musashi]

This already happens, just change those psionic messages with failed contact messages and change the think to: For fuck's sake is everyone sleeping!?

There are a million reasons why a PC could not be responding to a Way at that particular moment, and we use these same excuses to justify why an NPC did not respond to our Way message until way after we sent it to them.

"I was training/crafting/hunting and didn't want to run the risk of passing out while doing that."
"I was having another conversation with <insert more important VNPC than the person in question> at the time, my bad."

As for Lizzie's straw man templar situation ... I don't think that has a leg to stand on as a legitament concern. I mean think about it.

You log in and see a message from a big bad templar asking for a reason why they shouldn't kill you for something or another ...

You could ignore them and try to run, but at that point you're making an IC choice to not reply to the templar and they should treat you as having tried to ignore them if they bump into you again. Or ... if you want to reply, just way them back! You'll get through whether or not they're online and you can explain yourself to them via your own Way messages and wait for their reply to you, either when you're both online, or over the Way while offline if you keep missing one another.

For that Templar to want to kill you for ignoring their Way messages you would have to log in, and pretty much bump into the templar immediately afterwards before you even had a chance to try contacting anyone ... and then the templar would need to be enough of a dick not to acknowledge you're "I'm verry sorry I was just about to contact you and explain. I just woke up."

And if they kept on with the: "Why didn't you reply earlier" line of questioning ... just use an excuse the ones above.

And on the "it would be easy to figure out if people are dea" line of reasoning ... to me, logging out and say ... changing your play times to hide your PC's mind from other people who would want to find you for better or for worse ... seems a lot like using OOC action to affect IC consequence, I mean ... how can a person justify that? Really?

[Gimfalisette]

My personal preference for a solution to the situation of offline communication would be the expansion of literacy and installation of a robust letter-delivery system which would allow messages to be mundanely intercepted, and retained for the historical record.

Even when I am playing a super-busy, highly-in-demand PC, I don't really feel like it's so difficult for people to get in touch with me (or one of my minions) that there would need to be some change to the Way system to accomodate.

I would not want to see the Way system expanded rather than see the in-game writing system expanded. And if the writing system was expanded, I don't really see that there would be a need to expand the Way system.

[Zoltan]

My personal preference for a solution to the situation of offline communication would be the expansion of literacy and installation of a robust letter-delivery system which would allow messages to be mundanely intercepted, and retained for the historical record.

This is the ideal solution, in my mind. Unfortunately, it'll likely have to wait for Arm 2.

[Rhyden]

I too like the intent of this idea. Maybe only allow one way per PC while the receiving PC is offline. This could also help coordinate ooc times through IC means.

Limiting it to once would be foolish.

I meant to cut down spam upon logging in, but you bring up a good point.

My personal preference for a solution to the situation of offline communication would be the expansion of literacy and installation of a robust letter-delivery system which would allow messages to be mundanely intercepted, and retained for the historical record.

This is the ideal solution, in my mind. Unfortunately, it'll likely have to wait for 2012.

What Gimf said. I'd love to see a more flexible bulletin board system to coordinate ooc playtimes and rpts IG. Basically, I want to rid the GDB clan forums for the sole purpose that anyone could be reading them.

[Gimfalisette]

What Gimf said. I'd love to see a more flexible bulletin board system to coordinate ooc playtimes and rpts IG. Basically, I want to rid the GDB clan forums for the sole purpose that anyone could be reading them.

Well, that's not really what I meant. I meant I want to use writing on physical objects in game (paper, scrolls, books) more widely to communicate IC info. But there will always be a need to communicate OOCly as well; certain things simply cannot be coordinated ICly.

[a strange shadow]

I'd like to see more use of the bulletin boards. Change them to vnpc objects, such as, "A group of people gossip near the bar."