Guide to Burglars!

[Spice Spice Baby]

I think the idea of playing a grave robber would be pretty fun, while it lasts...

Just walk around the desert and find lootpiles. Everywhere in Zalanthas is a grave.

[musashi]

I think the idea of playing a grave robber would be pretty fun, while it lasts...

Just walk around the desert and find lootpiles. Everywhere in Zalanthas is a grave.

Hell even the choice areas that may or may not be ... beyond ... Zalanthas ... are graves with loot piles 

[Dan]

It would seem to me that burglars do a lot of waiting. Moving about slowly, hiding in the darkness listening in on conversations, casing a particular apartment, stalking, voyeuring...
None of the heart attack moments that combatant types et al usually get into.

Ha, until the gemmer comes home while you're sifting through his loot.

"Puleez don' kill meh mistah 'gicker!"

"I'm too young ta die!"

Jerks... he was fun.

[number13]

I've always thought a burglar/linguist or /hunter could make a pretty good archaeologist or explorer. Nothing says you have to rob apartments.

You'd be better off with burglar/rebel or burglar/scavenger, both for obvious reasons.

What's obvious about that?

With rebel you get wilderness sneak/hide, to avoid all the critters you are likely to find while exploring.  Most tunnel systems are wilderness rooms.  I don't think it's too terrible to say so here, because it's counterintuitive. City sneak/hide won't help (much) in a tunnel.

With scavenger:

In order to find objects out of reach of others they have learned to find paths that aren't apparent to the casual observer

...and presumably a few other minor benefits to your starting skill levels. Maybe.

[Good Gortok]

1) Steal sensible things. Everyone knows not to drag two couches and a dining table through the lobby, but what's equally important is to simply be reasonable in what you grab. A burglar would take things that are easy to fence off and not too recognizable. This means cash, jewelry, quality equipment and similar stuff. Yes, the bazaar merchants buy pretty much anything, but frankly it's a little ridiculous to stuff your pack with old boots and bits of rope just because you know you can squeeze a coded 20 sid out of it. No real burglar would do that unless there wasn't anything else and they're starving to death.

2) Moderate yourself. Noone needs to rob houses five times a week, even if it seems totally easy and risk-free. Even if you don't steal everything they got, their place is usually empty by the time they log back in because everyone else has helped themselves to the rest, so consider that fact even if you think you're not being too greedy yourself.

3) Be responsible. Once you get to the point where you can pick every lock in the city, you can be the guy who single-handedly makes it pointless to use the apartment code for as long as you're around. Don't be that guy. It's your responsibility to make sure that people can still have an apartment.

4) Roleplay your actions and take the virtual world into consideration. Robbing apartments isn't very risky and especially not if you take no time to do the break-in. Just because picking a lock only takes five seconds doesn't mean you can't sit there for a couple of minutes. And please do not ignore NPC guards within sight; the pick skill does not invoke the crime code (for whatever reasons) but that doesn't give you a license to twink.

[jmordetsky]

The burglar system sucks. There should be coded risk of getting caught.

[Manhattan]

The burglar system sucks. There should be coded risk of getting caught.

And make it a harder time for burglars?

Speaking from a code perspective--
I think the system is the way it is because unlike pickpocketing where somebody obviously sees that you're trying to stick your hands into someone's coat (which clearly cannot be justified other than the fact that you're DOING SOMETHING SHADY), standing in front of an apartment door jiggling the handle would appear pretty normal to passersby. You could be the resident there, or you could just be visiting a friend who's not opening their door, or you wanna break into a friend's house to play a prank on them, or you were asked to take care of a friend's place while they were away but were given the wrong set of keys, or any number of things. What about neighbors that know the actual resident, you say? Well, how would you code for something like that... I don't know any permanent resident of any apartment, people come and go.

I dunno, it's just what I think. 

[Xeran Van Houten]

I've always thought a burglar/linguist or /hunter could make a pretty good archaeologist or explorer. Nothing says you have to rob apartments.

You'd be better off with burglar/rebel or burglar/scavenger, both for obvious reasons.

What's obvious about that?

With rebel you get wilderness sneak/hide, to avoid all the critters you are likely to find while exploring.  Most tunnel systems are wilderness rooms.  I don't think it's too terrible to say so here, because it's counterintuitive. City sneak/hide won't help (much) in a tunnel.

With scavenger:

In order to find objects out of reach of others they have learned to find paths that aren't apparent to the casual observer

...and presumably a few other minor benefits to your starting skill levels. Maybe.

I was under the impression from the past threads about hide/sneak that if your main guid has the skill, the subguild bonus was applied to that hide/sneak skill - not give you both city and wlderness.

[X-D]

This from Morgenes back in like 2006

You are wrong, choosing a subguild that has the same skills as your main guild will give you a bump, but you have the ability to use your sneaking in both the wilderness and city.

I've already said this three times in this thread, so I'm done with it after this post.  The final staff answer on this is that:

thief = city sneak
rebel = wilderness sneak

If you have access to both types from a guild/subguild option, you get the ability to sneak in both locations.

And for the record, the official announcement of this change happened on the week of 2/20/2006, here's the link to the weekly update:

http://www.armageddon.org/general/updates/view.php?week=8&year=2006

[Xeran Van Houten]

Good thing I havn't had to a character's life on the line based on that impression...

[Synthesis]

I still think Morgenes is wrong about that.

I've had many an assassin/hunter who couldn't even find wagon tracks with wilderness hunt.

[X-D]

I've had no problem with it, everything worked fine for me.

[Xeran Van Houten]

A high enough city/wilderness skill can work in the opposite environment, though, yes?
I think I seen that in several places on the board before.
With a few helpful pieces of gear there wouldn't be much of a difference, maybe?

[Synthesis]

A high enough city/wilderness skill can work in the opposite environment, though, yes?
I think I seen that in several places on the board before.
With a few helpful pieces of gear there wouldn't be much of a difference, maybe?

Yeah, city hide/sneak seem to work just fine out in the wilderness, if you're good.

Maybe the subguild foul-up is unique to the hunt skill.  Or maybe assassins have it capped low enough that it just isn't good enough to work outside its intended environment.  *shrug*

[Manhattan]

I'd assume that grave robbers choose guild_burglar for the search and pick skills, not sneak/hide. You don't see Lara Croft or Indiana Jones sneaking/hiding in the wilderness do you?

Anyway, all this talk about code hurts my head. It makes me feel like a twink, which I'm still in rehab for...
but I just have to ask: If you pick the burglar/thief combo, does it bump your sneak cap or does it bump your starting sneak?

[Good Gortok]

Skill caps can't be affected by anything except staff tinkering. Subguild skill overlap supposedly gives a starting boost to the skill in question, but this is barely noticeable.

[Potaje]

Hear a question to my fellow shadow artist players.

If you break into a place, is it realistic to rummage through a room that has npc's clearly marked as inhabiting it. I mean going through dressers, and chests or what have you when there is someone sitting at a table in the same room. Keep in mind you would have just broke into the apartment.

[Gimfalisette]

If you break into a place, is it realistic to rummage through a room that has npc's clearly marked as inhabiting it. I mean going through dressers, and chests or what have you when there is someone sitting at a table in the same room. Keep in mind you would have just broke into the apartment.

Would it be reasonable to do that if it was a PC sitting at the table, and you just broke in? NPCs should not be treated differently than PCs.

[Nyr]

Hear a question to my fellow shadow artist players.

If you break into a place, is it realistic to rummage through a room that has npc's clearly marked as inhabiting it. I mean going through dressers, and chests or what have you when there is someone sitting at a table in the same room. Keep in mind you would have just broke into the apartment.

This was brought up on the IDB once recently, and one staffer's viewpoint on this was of particular interest.

If you leave vNPCs marked as inhabiting your room, that's fine. 

However, we're also fine with someone RPing breaking in and noticing these vNPCs and then robbing the place, assuming they RP with the vNPCs present.  This includes RPing their deaths and arranging the vNPC bodies over the pieces of furniture left untouched, or even leaving a re-arranged vNPC child cowering in the corner crying over the carnage.

[X-D]

I've done that.

And worse.

[jmordetsky]

I look at the etiquette surrounding burglars the same way I look at how people used to talk about the etiquetted surround thieves before Morg put the semote/hemote code in. You have the same never ending arguments about the things "thieves" were supposed to do. People being stolen from wanted emotes and RP and thieves complained that the risks were too high already. The code went in, problem solved. We never had that stupid conversation ever again, because you can emote and rp and a thief and it takes coded skill checks into account. Not only that but if I try to steal something unrealistic off of you, like a giant 50 pound war hammer - I will likely fail unless I'm a master.

We've been having the same discussions on burglars forever. The problem isn't the players, it's the code. If you don't want burglars to steal furniture, then there should be a weight factor that leads to a higher chance of being spotted by door guards on the way out.

As it stands now, if you play a young character and one of the higher agility races and have OOC knowledge of where to find/how to craft the required tools, you can clean out every apt in Allanak on a daily basis before you hit your 10th day of play time.  

The problem IMHO is that there is no penalty for failing sneak on the way out of a building. The door guard - he knows my face well enough that he can bar my entry, but if I walk out with a bag full of armor, a table, 2 chairs and my encumbrance at heavy so I fail my sneaks he doesn't blink.

There should be a coded criminal penalty for exits based on the sneak check.

[number13]

The problem IMHO is that there is no penalty for failing sneak on the way out of a building. The door guard - he knows my face well enough that he can bar my entry, but if I walk out with a bag full of armor, a table, 2 chairs and my encumbrance at heavy so I fail my sneaks he doesn't blink.

Eh, yeah.  That's more or less the problem.  There's also an a lopsided ratio of burglars-to-renters.  It's not really sustainable.   

[Manhattan]

The problem IMHO is that there is no penalty for failing sneak on the way out of a building. The door guard - he knows my face well enough that he can bar my entry, but if I walk out with a bag full of armor, a table, 2 chairs and my encumbrance at heavy so I fail my sneaks he doesn't blink.

Eh, yeah.  That's more or less the problem.  There's also an a lopsided ratio of burglars-to-renters.  It's not really sustainable.   

But burglars can be renters too...

[jmordetsky]

The problem IMHO is that there is no penalty for failing sneak on the way out of a building. The door guard - he knows my face well enough that he can bar my entry, but if I walk out with a bag full of armor, a table, 2 chairs and my encumbrance at heavy so I fail my sneaks he doesn't blink.

Eh, yeah.  That's more or less the problem.  There's also an a lopsided ratio of burglars-to-renters.  It's not really sustainable.   

But burglars can be renters too...

Yar, true enough. I forgot about that. Most of my terrible offenses as a burglar have been sneaking in and sneaking out though. Renting an apartment is a trail.

In theory, from a pure RP standpoint, a templar or Militia sarge could investigate a burglary at the scene and find out if there have been any new renters?

I guess that's another question - what can we do to empower templars or militia to track down burglars? Like a version of the hunt command that perhaps could detect race, boot type. I don't totally speculating right now.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

First off, I like the first post of this thread where he mentioned alternate motives for burglary; vandalizing, leaving a trade mark, and "sexual thrill." As a crazy youth I've committed all kinds of crimes for a "thrill." (Burglary quite often of residences and public buildings.) Though, due to the harsh nature of Zalanthas, I think thrill takes a side saddle to desperation.

In theory, from a pure RP standpoint, a templar or Militia sarge could investigate a burglary at the scene and find out if there have been any new renters?

I played a guard once who spent a ridiculous amount of time chasing a burglar. He attempted to get renter names, and cross reference shit. The imms tried to help me answer the types of questions I was posing to the gate guards, but apparently there's no simple way of conjuring up a list of everyone who rents in one particular building. IN the end, this type of investigating needs to be done via email, it takes forever, and it's a huge pain to everyone involved. Finally after me bugging them constantly for weeks with these questions, they at least coded it so that militia can enter apartment complexes.

Anyways, here are my thoughts based on my IG and IRL experiences with crime and burglary.


1) There is a thrill and a rush in it. I've never broken into a place IRL for material gain. I've never taken anything worth more than 20 bucks. However, in Zalanthas where people are desperate and the punishment for burglary could very well be death, no one would burglarize solely for thrill. However, it could be interesting to RP this thrill.

Beyond thrill there are nerves. These nerves often cause people to shit. I thought it was just me, but I've seen a movie (don't remember the title, but the guy shit on his poor victim's nice bed. Maybe Snatch or Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels?) and also an episode of Sopranos that addresses this real and common ailment. I have pooped several times breaking into places. Once, right square in the middle of the bedroom floor. So, shitting at the scene might be more than just a calling card, and it might be very realistic. (I apologize in advance because we all KNOW someone is going to come home missing expensive stuff, with shit on their floors VERY SOON.)

2) Plan ahead. Scope. Don't just run into a random building, pick a random door, and unlock it. This is how you find a) nothing, or b) Byn Sargeant Amos kanking his new runner, Amosette. You have sneak/hide/shadow, so pick a wealthy target and shadow them home. Or hide in the hallway and watch which door they go into. Now that you have that info, wait until you spot them in the bar. Now you know you'll find an empty apartment that is being lived in (and thus should have l00t.)

3) HOW MUCH OR HOW LITTLE YOU TAKE IS NOT THE RELEVANT FACTOR! If you want to take everything and sell every scrap from the 500 sid silk shirt, to the 5 sid empty flask, you can do that. It makes you more sid for your trouble, so it makes a lot of sense. (Yes it is a bummer, and yes you should take encumbrance and bulk into consideration as has always been said.) In the mindset of the thief, "The more I can make off of this one burglary, the more sid I have, and the longer I can go without having to risk my neck again."

A) One burglar robs every house in Nak in a week, makes 20,000 sid, and retires.
B) One burglar robs 10 houses in a week for about 50 sid of stuff no one will miss (and probably think they themselves lost). He makes 500 sid at 10x the effort, and 10x the risk.
C) One burglar robs one house, makes 500 sid, and retires for a week until his sid is low and he needs to take this risk again.

A: Early that week reports of burglary started rolling in. By time the third was reported that week, the guards and templars were all up in arms. They were on a manhunt. This was a pandemic, not just a sole unfortunate incident. Apartments were being watched. Renters were alert and starting to carry their valuables with them. Narks all over the rinth were hunting for scraps of info so they could be the next unsung Templars pet. This burglar made it, against all odds, through a self-imposed kamakazee and retired wealthy. (Yes, I know if he were a PC who did this he wouldn't ACTUALLY retire, but for the sake of this analysis, lets just pretend.) However, even in retirement, he's still being hunted. Why? Because he stole and burgled so much, so frequently that it became a pandemic.

B: Some renters just figured they misplaced it themselves, some figured their memories were slipping, some didn't give a rat's ass, some thought it was a glitch, and maybe one or two actually reported it. At first. Then talk began in the taverns. If 10 people all lost little things, (Or 1 person lost little things 10 times) we now know we're being prayed on. It's not as aggrivating as burglar A's approach, but it's still going to get attention.

C: A man comes home and he has... nothing. At least nothing expensive. He reports it. The guards watch the building more closely for the next few days, but then they get bored because no one's striking, so they return to the Gaj to flirt with the Salarri's and Kadians. Soon, the apartments are wide open because we lack the patience. "Meh," thinks Corporal Cross, "It's just one apartment. One time. Burglar hasn't struck in a week. He's probably a rinthi, and he's probably dead now. A week or two goes by. Another burlgary is reported. Is it the same guy? Maybe, maybe not.

Frequency is key. Even if you're taking more, less frequently, you will get less attention, and more apathy from your friends in the black and jade. Take as much as you reasonably can, sell it, and wait until it runs low again.

4) Don't leave a calling card. It's fun. I once had a burglar who drew on the wall with chalk. The problem with calling cards are numberous
- As mentioned above, if you leave one we know you're still alive. We know you are the burglar we're thinking of. We know where you've been. And above all, you aggrivate us with your annoying little calling card, so we're even more motivated to catch you!
- Your calling card has to come from somewhere. Not only are we now watching your target apartment buildings, we're now watching your source of calling cards.
- If we search you in a bar for some BS reason, and see 10 of your calling cards in your pack, we gotcha.
So, basically, don't taunt your pursuers, and don't let them know it's you (even if they don't know specifically who 'you' is.)


It's getting late. I hope this helped. I'll try to think of more. Let me know what you guys think.