KILLKILLKILL!!!

[Lizzie]

I've "not" killed people, plenty, with several characters I've had. I've seen the results of "not" killing them. Frankly, I'm looking forward to the next time I am in a position of coded ability, so that I can actually kill someone for a change. Logging in every day to more and more conflict, more and more drama, heaped on top of itself, just because you let 5 people live who you really WANTED to kill and now all 5 of them are more powerful than you and can kick your ass and have templars doing their bidding..

is not fun. At all. Next time the opportunity/need/desire arises, I'mma kill the bitch and get on with MY story. I've given everyone else THEIR story. It's my turn.

[My 2 sids]

I find it odd that players don't trust one another.    Where's the separation between OOC and IC if people aren't willing to disconnect long enough from their PC's to enjoy the game (plots, twists, turns, etc) with fellow gammers?

[Yam]

I find it odd that players don't trust one another.    Where's the separation between OOC and IC if people aren't willing to disconnect long enough from their PC's to enjoy the game (plots, twists, turns, etc) with fellow gammers?

Idealism is cool, but it gets characters killed. I think most of us have had a few too many bad experiences to trust other character's players without seeing how they play.

[My 2 sids]

True.  But, isn't there a difference between idealism and holding ourselves to high standards?

If PKing is regarded as the only logical reaction to any situation,  than what is the difference between Arm and any other hack-n-slash mud?

***

If role-play is the cornerstone of the game, than we have to allow role-play to happen.   And that means allowing the PCs to react to situations in a way that is realistic in proportion. 

Yes, the code allows one lone PC to go from one dinosaur-sized creature to another, freely killing anything the PC happens across -- yet, I don't believe the majority of players here would say "Oh, well the docs say it's a harsh world and PCs have more physical stamina than on Earth -- so that's totally realistic!"  Rather, I think many players would say "well, realistically, the PCs may try to avoid/ walk around dangerous animals; they may go and gather friends (build up a large plot of training and group organizing); or maybe the PC would get half-way through fighting and pull back because it's realistic to be scared after being hurt badly"


I don't see this thread as discouraging PK.  But, I do believe there are those who "socially twink"  who go through the game establishing their PC by means of rampant/  disproportional elimination of anything they deem as a hinder to building a super-powerful PC.

[Yam]

TBut, I do believe there are those who "socially twink"  who go through the game establishing their PC by means of rampant/  disproportional elimination of anything they deem as a hinder to building a super-powerful PC.

That seems pretty realistic to me though.

[Northlander]

Death builds stories as well. Life is cheap in Casablanca.

It's also a powerful tool for immersion.

Keep up the killings, please.

[My 2 sids]

TBut, I do believe there are those who "socially twink"  who go through the game establishing their PC by means of rampant/  disproportional elimination of anything they deem as a hinder to building a super-powerful PC.

That seems pretty realistic to me though.

Why?  How?  Elaborate please?   How did these people establish such a complex societal hierarchy if people simply kill randomly?

[X-D]

TBut, I do believe there are those who "socially twink"  who go through the game establishing their PC by means of rampant/  disproportional elimination of anything they deem as a hinder to building a super-powerful PC.

I don't see the word random in there myself M2S.

And I find it not only realistic, but fitting with arm docs.

[deviant storm]

I've had characters killed, for various reasons. Even occasionally because I've made an enemy or am a hindrance in some way. Those are the best ways to die, rather than via npc critter death.

But I've also enjoyed rp where my character has been beaten, captured, and a lot of other too ic things that I can't go into right now. I love those characters best. When I can look at them and say 'this scar was gotten from such and such because he said she was being insubordinate.' and so on. Those characters have real stories. Hardships to deal with, possible revenge to plot or at the very least pulling herself to her feet again.

I like the creative alternatives much more.

[Dar]

TBut, I do believe there are those who "socially twink"  who go through the game establishing their PC by means of rampant/  disproportional elimination of anything they deem as a hinder to building a super-powerful PC.

That seems pretty realistic to me though.

Why?  How?  Elaborate please?   How did these people establish such a complex societal hierarchy if people simply kill randomly?

Being a 'devil' adovcate here. Supposedly, the PC are a little bit 'above average' then general vpopulation. A little bit more ambitious, a little bit more industrious, a little bit more resourceful. Combine those three into one mix, you get a perfect murderer.

Now that I finished playing the advocate, I would say that no matter how much 'sense' the desire to eliminate every potential threat makes, to do so is to kill the game you're playing.

Roughly a year ago, rinth was a pretty barren zone in terms of playerbase. Were there leaders there? There were, maxed characters who were of the kind who preferred to squash opposition, instead of playing with it. The result was that the zone remained barren, but the two or three players just sitting on what they got. After my character came to that zone and spent three weeks 'engaging' newly created rinthies in plots, instead of annihilating them, the labyrinth became a thriving zone, and I would hopefully think is so still.

So yeah. Does killing your opposition keep your character 'safe'? It might, but ... then you're not playing the right mud.

[Lizzie]

If PKing is regarded as the only logical reaction to any situation,  than what is the difference between Arm and any other hack-n-slash mud?

Nice rhetoric, but no one is suggesting that this is happening. PK is NOT regarded as the "only logical reaction to any situation." I don't think anyone is complaining that it is. No one that I'm aware of, rolls up characters whose entire MO consists of PK.

Sometimes, killing a character is -exactly- the most logical reaction. Not "any" situation. If someone is twinking up his combat skills and then running around PKing every time he "has a situation", then by all means, report it to the staff and I'm sure they'll be grateful for the heads up. I haven't heard that this is happening. If you are hearing that it's happening, then perhaps you should stop listening to OOC gossip channels.

[Betaal]

This subject is a difficult one.  

Assassinating people in-game can lead to some extremely defensive behavior, OOCly and ICly.  I remember a point many years ago when I was 4 for 4 on being assassinated whenever I was invited into a noble's estate.  I'd be led to a back room, have the door closed and locked, and have the noble's PC cronies or NPC guards kill me for whatever reason.  The issue with taking the "high road" in these situations is that the "high road" and the "death of my character" start to become synonymous, and we become predictably protective about our characters.

We like our characters.  We like the friends that we've made.  We've enjoyed the small and large rewards over the several months we've played them.  We've enjoyed the progress we've made on our mini-plots and personal goals.  We're excited when we log in, and we look forward to making the next big step forward.

And then we get shoved into a closet with three NPC guards along with an "order all kill <my hopes and dreams>" and it's over.

And sometimes the "high road" doesn't reward us in the way that we hope.  Someone always seems to be willing to take the low road and we begin the process anew.  Eventually, some adopt the mentality that if they want to enjoy themselves and retain control of our characters, they occasionally have to sneak down the "low road", because the "high road" has been hijacked.

I've rarely lost a character to another common-type PC and felt cheated.  My most frustrating experiences have all come at the hands of people in positions of extreme power or influence.  While I do feel murder is an integral part to the game, we could probably benefit by seeing less murder (and more creative solutions) practiced by those characters with the power and position to more easily pursue an alternative -- especially special application leaders such as templars, nobles, GMH family leaders, etc...

[Adieren]

See, I think part of it is a lack of emotes even when being killed, people ABUSING codes.

Situation one: If a woman were defending for her life and begging not to be killed- would there be a moment of hesitation?
This situation entirely lacked emotes on their part. It was slightly ungratifying because it showed me how people in positions of coded power are too corrupt for me to deal with on a day-to-day in such and such place.

Situation two: If a person draws a knife, (I was attempting to role-play something at that point) is your first instinct always to become the aggressor?
Trapped in an area- someone was scaring her, she takes out a knife because she wants to try and use it to cut down the door or something. An automatic reaction from the opposite character- did magick to call up some animals to dispatch her. This is bad role-play from anyone who has magick karma, in my opinion. So the lesson I learned in this situation was to say OOC: Let me RP something out, I'm not attacking.

Situation three: Would an assassin TRULY assassinate someone in a crowded inn, in the middle of the day?
It was a ridiculous time. She was told to come to XXX location, and she did, sat down. I think I went gone: grabbing a soda. When I came back she'd been stabbed with something I didn't have cures for and was in combat with a "cloaked figure" who I knew to be xxx person. He wasn't being nabbed by soldiers. I ran to the Gaj, not yet knowing the nature of poisons, hoping for help. Everyone just looked, I was able to mumble out a few words before she died. Not incriminating ones though.

[My 2 sids]

If PKing is regarded as the only logical reaction to any situation,  than what is the difference between Arm and any other hack-n-slash mud?

Nice rhetoric, but no one is suggesting that this is happening. PK is NOT regarded as the "only logical reaction to any situation." I don't think anyone is complaining that it is. No one that I'm aware of, rolls up characters whose entire MO consists of PK.

Sometimes, killing a character is -exactly- the most logical reaction. Not "any" situation. If someone is twinking up his combat skills and then running around PKing every time he "has a situation", then by all means, report it to the staff and I'm sure they'll be grateful for the heads up. I haven't heard that this is happening. If you are hearing that it's happening, then perhaps you should stop listening to OOC gossip channels.

You're not listening.    Have you read anything on this board? You know, it's possible to discuss role-play w/o trying to judge individual players (which seems to be your intention).   Again, I'm not sure why you're against even holding any sort of philosophical discussion by trying to make it personal.



My "twink" comment is similar to Adieren's comment ---  questioning if it's an abuse of codes to simply PK instead of role-playing a non-coded solution.

People are saying PK may indeed make sense to the majority of the population the majority of the time.   THAT is not true.  If you believe it is, please share why.

[Yam]

See, I think part of it is a lack of emotes even when being killed, people ABUSING codes.

Situation one: If a woman were defending for her life and begging not to be killed- would there be a moment of hesitation?
This situation entirely lacked emotes on their part. It was slightly ungratifying because it showed me how people in positions of coded power are too corrupt for me to deal with on a day-to-day in such and such place.

Situation two: If a person draws a knife, (I was attempting to role-play something at that point) is your first instinct always to become the aggressor?
Trapped in an area- someone was scaring her, she takes out a knife because she wants to try and use it to cut down the door or something. An automatic reaction from the opposite character- did magick to call up some animals to dispatch her. This is bad role-play from anyone who has magick karma, in my opinion. So the lesson I learned in this situation was to say OOC: Let me RP something out, I'm not attacking.

Situation three: Would an assassin TRULY assassinate someone in a crowded inn, in the middle of the day?
It was a ridiculous time. She was told to come to XXX location, and she did, sat down. I think I went gone: grabbing a soda. When I came back she'd been stabbed with something I didn't have cures for and was in combat with a "cloaked figure" who I knew to be xxx person. He wasn't being nabbed by soldiers. I ran to the Gaj, not yet knowing the nature of poisons, hoping for help. Everyone just looked, I was able to mumble out a few words before she died. Not incriminating ones though.

This is not a MUSH. Those things are all perfectly realistic and legitimate.

Situation one: Uh, yeah. People do this sort of thing all the time in real life.

Situation two: Someone draws a knife. What the fuck else are they going to do with it, carve up a ginka fruit? Maybe. Why take chances?

Situation three: This happens a lot in real life. Do a google search for africa + machete + murder.

[jhunter]

I think its just as bad to leave someone alive because you think it will be fun to have an arch nemesis oocly as it is to kill someone because oocly you like to kill other players. If your character would kill them, then do it, if not then don't.

-Exactly- how I feel about it. It is every bit as wrong to -not- kill someone for OOC reasons as it is to kill someone for OOC reasons.

[Adieren]

I wouldn't have been so upset if they had given me REAL role-play to make it gratifying rather than just a disappointment. And as some of those situations were on my second and fourth character... it rather soured my opinion of the game's players.

[My 2 sids]

I think its just as bad to leave someone alive because you think it will be fun to have an arch nemesis oocly as it is to kill someone because oocly you like to kill other players. If your character would kill them, then do it, if not then don't.

-Exactly- how I feel about it. It is every bit as wrong to -not- kill someone for OOC reasons as it is to kill someone for OOC reasons.

Sorry, sounds like flawed logic to me.   That's like saying it's bad to -not- wait around for PC merchants/ PC guards/ PC whatever  when ICly the NPC is standing right there.  

We are, playing a game, not becoming the character,  thus there is some obligation to do what's right and helpful for other players.

[Yam]

I wouldn't have been so upset if they had given me REAL role-play to make it gratifying rather than just a disappointment. And as some of those situations were on my second and fourth character... it rather soured my opinion of the game's players.

What do you mean by real roleplay?

I think its just as bad to leave someone alive because you think it will be fun to have an arch nemesis oocly as it is to kill someone because oocly you like to kill other players. If your character would kill them, then do it, if not then don't.

-Exactly- how I feel about it. It is every bit as wrong to -not- kill someone for OOC reasons as it is to kill someone for OOC reasons.

Sorry, sounds like flawed logic to me.   That's like saying it's bad to -not- wait around for PC merchants/ PC guards/ PC whatever  when ICly the NPC is standing right there. 

We are, playing a game, not becoming the character,  thus there is some obligation to do what's right and helpful for other players.

We're playing a game where you play a character. There is no obligation to do what's right and helpful for other players.

[Gimfalisette]

Now, in an effort to change the tone of this thread, I will make my confessions of times I've PKed poorly:

-- I killed Ourla's PC for a very legitimate reason when I had other options available. I know she has forgiven me and it was years ago, but I still feel bad about it. I was simply too green in my noble role and in the game overall to realize that the other options I had were perfectly sufficient. I abused my power.

-- I killed Cerelum's PC for a completely legitimate reason, and with permission from authorities, in a situation where there were no other alternatives, without sufficient emoting or scene-setting (there was some, just not enough). While I didn't HAVE to do better for him, I could have, and I should have. I had all the power and I didn't use it properly.

I can't think of any other PKs that weren't completely earned or where I didn't play them to the hilt.

The point here is that becoming defensive either way is silly and unproductive. Those of us who have PKed, it's undoubtedly true that some of the PKs you carried out were not necessary, or were poorly done, etc. Those of us who have been PKed, yes, you've undoubtedly been the victim of some that were not necessary or were poorly done. So, don't do that stuff to other players.

Let's just all learn from each other on this and work on improving.

Back to Niamh's more general topic, I'd post a list of specific possible ways to get non-lethal vengeance, but most of them I consider too IC and/or I actually prefer to keep them for myself to pursue. Potentially I could be identified by doing some of the stuff I do if I put it out here, and I'd rather not be associated with my PCs that way. I guess that's kind of selfish but I really don't want to have my creativity stolen or have my PCs be OOCly targeted.

[X-D]

Situation three: This happens a lot in real life. Do a google search for africa + machete + murder.

Don't even need google.

JFK, middle of the day, large crowd.
Lincoln, Crowded theatre.
Ronold, my fav pres, attempt on a crowded street in the middle of the day.
With Google we could come up with thousands more.
Wasn't King gunned down at a speech or something?

[Yam]

Situation three: This happens a lot in real life. Do a google search for africa + machete + murder.

Don't even need google.

JFK, middle of the day, large crowd.
Lincoln, Crowded theatre.
Ronold, my fav pres, attempt on a crowded street in the middle of the day.
With Google we could come up with thousands more.
Wasn't King gunned down at a speech or something?

I just wanted to give example of close in stuff. There's plenty with the 'throw' skill. Or, uh, shoot.

[jhunter]

-'Sids, it sounds to me like there is never a logical reason for you to kill, even on Zalanthas. But, I'll bet you don't hesitate to or look down on someone for killing a NPC that is threatening their lives or livelyhood. That's the difference, you're going out of character to prevent killing the character because there is a player behind it. That isn't roleplaying. Your example calling it flawed has nothing to do with the situation. Plenty of times I have stood near a npc while wishing up for animation rather than ignoring them because they are npc and tracking down a player character.

I believe I've said this before, but killing other pcs, while it might end one plot, often sprouts new plots. A few of the longest running plots I've ever been involved in started because of a pc being killed.

Oh, and just because we (with our civilized, modern day mentalities) don't believe that killing was the correct response, it does not mean that our pcs wouldn't believe it to be exactly the correct response.

[Zoltan]

I think its just as bad to leave someone alive because you think it will be fun to have an arch nemesis oocly as it is to kill someone because oocly you like to kill other players. If your character would kill them, then do it, if not then don't.

-Exactly- how I feel about it. It is every bit as wrong to -not- kill someone for OOC reasons as it is to kill someone for OOC reasons.

That's where I stand on the whole thing. It's cool when alternatives to murder are found, but only when it makes sense. And I don't just mean when the victim "forces" you to do it, either. Also, sometimes character deaths make the situation that much more intense and interesting for those left alive. A couple of my first character's best friends were wasted by his mentor in one swoop and believe me, the effect on my character was -much- more drastic than if they had made it home with a missing limb or whatever.

Yes, it sucks when your character's killed by overwhelming coded power, but can you really expect most rational beings to try to take someone's life from a position of weakness?

[jmordetsky]

Implement post-combat rp by creating a pre-death incapacitated mode. There will be less death.

Implement the ability to cripple/maim, but leave these players alive. Ie, cut off hand --agil. Smash knees --endurance. Cut out an eye --room look distance.

There is less creativity in revenge because there are less avenues for punishment. I remember I played a Mul in the rinth that wroked at a bar there. Elves would come in this bar and talk smack. So I would beat them and then OOCly not wanting to kill them I would drop them in a well and leave them to fate. Then the same elves would come back and talk smack again.

What's a boy to do? Oocly - I didn't want to kill them. But some of them, I didn't have any other avenues. Sometimes you can take people's money and equipment, but what do you do to someone who doesn't care about that?

Of course, I'm speaking from a position of power. Another example - you're a templar and you encounter a n00b. ICly you need to punish the n00b - but the n00b is well a n00b and is being ridiculous. You don't want to kill him - but eventually you have to, because you don't have any other avenues. So you make the right decision and kill him publicly and hope the scene is enough to bring him/her back to the game and that you've enriched other's time by making it an event.

But at the end of the day, if you could cut off his hand? Brand him? Banish him? There's 100 other punishment options - but none of them are enforced. Death is enforced and it's final and speaks heavily to your point.