KILLKILLKILL!!!

[My 2 sids]

If PK is sometimes the "only answer"... what's the question?

People talk about "well, we have to be realistic"  well, realistically if someone is given a punishment beating; is maimed; is intimidated by (doc-proven) betters...  than there isn't going to be retaliation to that.

And it makes me feel old but....

If everyone else is twinking out,  does that mean you will too?

The idea that PK is best out of fear of retaliation (retaliation that realistically shouldn't happen ICly)  IS playing OOCly.   And if that's your stance, fine.  But say that.  Don't make up some bogus about how that would make sense ICly.

[Yam]

This is just getting... so good.

[jmordetsky]

But if you've gone through the alternatives, and there is no solution other than death, Mr. McCartney said it best...

Only because that's what is codedly available. I remember playing with Quick (who I always found to be very responsible as a side note) and he once RPed maiming a player who had gotten out of line. The player RPed a sort of grunt with pain and then went on doing whatever it was he was doing that gotten him in this position in the first place. He eventually got killed for doing this stuff. If the act of maiming the character had a tangible effect, the "warning" he was given wouldn't have unnoticed. He might have stopped being a douchebag earlier on and Quick might of had to kill him a few days later.

I'm saying we shouldn't kill people - In my time on the game I've seen very few "unearned deaths". But if there were coded alternatives to killing that had in game, coded ramifications - you'd see less killing for sure. I know I'd do it less, I'd incapacitate them, cut out a hand and send them on their way as a warning to others. That has the effect of - avoiding a pc death, giving the character a chance to come back at me (but with a handicap), and providing something for them to RP.  

[a strange shadow]

The cynic in me says, "But then you'd get people bitching about others being too quick to chop off hands."

I agree that more options for maiming would be nice - and more options for anonymity would be even better.

[Dar]

I had a few kills like that. They're there, stripped naked, completely outmatched and I'm like .. "here" take this option, you'll live! No, they choose to force me into killing them. It felt so ... unnatural. I mean fuck ... atleast 'lie' to me and get out alive, but these guys would go ... no. Screw you. Yeah ... I didnt bother with them.

Some of my weird PKills that the victims might've found strange and are a year old now.

As my first Red Fang, I once KOd some halfbreed on the span and dragged it out on the ledge. I did the usual chatter, recruited him to serve me as a spy, watch for merchant/militia traffic, even mentioned a quick note that he actually going to get some 'pay' out of the loot gained from his warnings. The breed was eating it up, agreed to everything. Okey, I'm thinking ... I've gotten myself 'another' ear, things are doing good. And then I decided to screw around and instead of 'releasing' him. I threw her upwards.  ... Yeah, bad idea. On the ledge, near a 3 room fall. He did not exactly fall in the 'same' room I threw him from. So yeah .. that was a wtf PKill. Totally accidental.

At another time. I had a guild character, who befriended and seduced an inexperienced, beginning sex slave in hopes of latching on the stream of information she was bound to bring in for her Master. Unfortunately for her, the character had pretty bad experiences in the rinth during his youth, and a lot of what was going on to the slave 'now' echoed to what was in his background. He tried to strengthen her, tried to teach her. And at one point, after an immense amount of thinks and feels, and anguish ... realized that he couldnt let her go through what he did in his own tender youth. So he uhh ... killed her. I'm sure for her it was an out of whack, wtf, where did that come from kind of kill.


Also killed a whole bunch of other people out of whack, but only cause he was paid to do it.

[Gimfalisette]

The cynic in me says, "But then you'd get people bitching about others being too quick to chop off hands."

I agree that more options for maiming would be nice - and more options for anonymity would be even better.

People would probably bitch, but perhaps in a different way. It seems to me like part of the bitching about PKilled is stuff like:

-- I didn't get a chance!
-- You didn't tell me why!
-- You just cut plots off rather than creating plots!

All those would be gone, and what would remain is, "I didn't like it and it sucked for my PC!"

I wish I could see a way to put more anonymity options in without encouraging the abuse of anonymity, but I don't. I wonder if we could come up with truly good ideas for this. I also wonder if the change to make hooded figures uncontactable from a distance improved things?

[brytta.leofa]

I wonder if we could come up with truly good ideas for this. I also wonder if the change to make hooded figures uncontactable from a distance improved things?

My guess is that the Way wasn't being used to get people's descriptions quite as often as they thought.  Every time you contact the wrong person by accident and just "hang up," that person gets a creepeh feeling.

[Versu]

Aren't a lot of Pk's handed down by staff?

There's no other way to shut up, remove competition or deal with repeat offenders.

Even powerful folk can't always get rid of someone or maneuver them enough to stop gossip/rumors.

Once someone knows too much, it's too late and the rumors fly.

If anyone has a problem with the flow of things, they gotta die.

Relationships among the houses can screw up business for everyone.

Just don't get caught - that's the real shame, cause then you gotta die too.

[X-D]

and more options for anonymity would be even better.

No joke, not being able to remain even slightly anon is the second biggest reason I'll kill rather then other options.


Also, I get a kick out of how often "Random PK" Is thrown around this thread and others. I've never done a random one myself And I've never seen or even heard of one. Oh, I'm sure they do happen, but every one of the hundreds of PC deaths I've been involved with in some manner had a reason.

What I love is the players skilling up on NPCs that get one shotted by a PC they don't even know and wonder why...OH, RANDOM PK!.

HAHAHAHA!

[Jdr]

I took all of the Mughal Empire's lands but one and they agreed to become my Protectorate. And then the next turn they waged war on me. Damn those Mughals, I tried not to PK them!

[Pale Horse]

1st, Ghost, those stories were nice to hear, especially for someone who's magicker character of the time was one of those first two that ended up being captured, tortured and killed by your character's people.  I always wanted to know who to send kudos to, for that scene, but I couldn't see anyone to get a s-desc and send it in.

2nd, all the reasons being stated in this thread are valid and wonderful.  Let someone live?  Great!  They came back for revenge, even after agreeing to knock it off/work for you/flee?  Great!  Sounds like Zalanthas, to me.

Having said that, I do feel for those of you who find the repeated "Domingo Montoya" mentality just a tad bit wearying, especially after it seems like every single time you show mercy, it bites you in the ass.  Lesson to learn?  Mercy is for the weak, but let your character learn that.  I wouldn't find it wrong for someone to kill my PC, even when they're begging for their lives and have every intention of following along with what would keep them alive, if the lessons previously learned through repeated gestures of mercy only point out to my killer that letting someone live ends up being a "Bad Thing."

There was a si-fi book I read once..I forget the name, but it talks about a young future "super-soldier" that, when he has his first fight and chance to kill an enemy, ends up letting her go instead.  An hour later, said enemy soldier shows up in tow with a few more soldiers from the opposing force and blows several of the Super-Soldier's friends apart, including his older brother.  From that point on, even though he hates the fact that he does it, he kills each enemy that pleads for mercy as it's already been "proven" to him that letting them live ends up being far too potentially dangerous to him and those he cares about.

I see that this attitude has made it's way into the minds of many of the players and their characters, on Arm.  This is natural and good, IMO.  Also, I see the attitude that being put down without much explanation or reason we can see leads to "bad-rp" and much frustration.  This is natural and good, to me.

We're all wanting to have our story told, but that's the thing.  Our stories are a book, where the only way to see the next page is by keeping our characters alive.  Often, that means killing another character who's story could lead to the end of our own...there by ending someone else's story, creating that frustration I mentioned above.

Do I wish I could maim someone and have them be satisfied with getting away alive.  Yes, I do.  Unfortunately, I, too, have come across those who would rather have the "Domingo Montoya" attitudes far too often for my liking, and I and my characters find it somewhat easier (and safer, for me and that which I value) to eliminate said threat.  I'd gladly maim, if it lead to someone keeping their character.  "Maim", in Arm., though, seems to bring up the thought that they're now at a coded disadvantage, or have to constantly RP as if they were..and that wears on people who would rather be out having fun being that "super-hero" we dream about, instead of Gimpy McAmos who lost a few fingers or a full hand for having tried said lost hand at being a raider, and lost.

Edited to remove a glaring error..though I think I would like to "Mime" someone to death, some day.

[jhunter]

You're applying real world, modern-day logic and morals to a world that is much more primitive and lacks alot of those morals that you're trying to apply to it. I guess what I'm saying is that maybe you should look back on our RL history a bit and see how things were when things were more primitive and people thought differently than they do now.

Read your own history, and some sociology and anthropology books too.

The idea of humans seeking a form of law dates back to Hammurabi!  The individual is NOT ALLOWED to do whatever the hell they want -- they have to conform.   Random, irrational  death is never supported by ANY culture EVER.   And yes, someone dieing because they sneezed on you -- is random and irrational.


I'd go so far as to say if death was so "normal" that Turki society would fall -- can't build fear of unknown difference in the hearts of folks who know for a fact death is around the corner.


What you're labeling as "modern" is really nothing more than a recipe for Anarchy.

"Irrational death" is a matter of perspective. That's the point that you seem to be missing. What one man considers excessive and irrational, another man sees as perfectly fair and justified. Some people in our society believe that death is an excessive punishment even when the crime is murder.

[Shabago]

This thread actually made me pretty sad in portions. I'll try to address the one thing I've seen here that is somewhat pointed at staff, and the others as just another player who loves this game.

STAFF PORTION:

Staff can not, will not, nor want to kill players. Honestly guys, we don't sit up there, rubbing our hands together and cackling at the chance to off one of you. We can and do have the world react appropriately to your actions - and yes - that can lead to a death. However, since I've come on staff (approx. 8 months now) I've seen 8 PKs handed out by staff, personally. That's one a month. We have anywhere from 60 to 100 apps reviewed per -week-. At the lowest amount for a month, that's 240:1 ratio. (subject to change based on storages/death by mob/critter) but you get the idea.

PLAYER PORTION/My opinion:

Not trusting players? There's alot wrong with that imo. I trust all of you and I've seen some of you at your "worst". Distrusting characters is definately a way to go, but I have more faith in the players behind them to have a reason for actions no matter how big or small that makes sense IC. Benefit fo the doubt. And if it's for something OOC or a "I need to win" mentality, then so be it, but I'm not going to let that spoil the IG story for me, or other players I interact with that have nothing to do with said event.

Next, avoiding leaders? It's an RPG. Leaders need love too, and they have the most thankless job most days seeing as one person needs to deal with half a city of PC's. That leaves very little time for them to be doing something -they- might want to do with their character, made only worse when they go to try and get interaction only to find a ghost town because people dive for cover.

Now for the actual topic..

PK is a last resort, not a first or only option in 80% of the scenario's that can be given. The alternatives (some of which Niamh outlined) are very doable. Showing trust in other players will have trust be given back to you in turn. Trust they will RP out the maiming, the beating, the lost limb, their reputation being put into shambles - whatever the case may be. The reasoning behind killing someone because they may come back to "get you" is not a reason at all, imo. If you want to keep someone down, or simply keep yourself safe, DO IT. RP. Get the favor of that Templar/Militia - that influencial Noble - that powerful assassin - make alot of friends to keep tabs on your enemies so they can't even scratch their butts without you knowing it. PKing for that reason is laziness. If they STILL manage to "get you" then you had the joy of being part of a beautiful story line (Gangs of New York comes to mind) and you should come away from the experience satisfied.

If people do not roll with the RP, if you think they "twinked", abused the code or "wronged" you in a fashion that was not IC file a player complaint or email your clan staff. I'll bet 9 times out of 10 that player on the other end didn't know what they did was wrong (being new or just never having been there before) and once they've been addressed on the issue they LEARN and the playerbase as a whole benefits from it.

[Gimfalisette]

Do I wish I could mime someone and have them be satisfied with getting away alive.  Yes, I do.  Unfortunately, I, too, have come across those who would rather have the "Domingo Montoya" attitudes far too often for my liking, and I and my characters find it somewhat easier (and safer, for me and that which I value) to eliminate said threat.  I'd gladly mime, if it lead to someone keeping their character.  Mime, in Arm., though, seems to bring up the thought that they're now at a coded disadvantage...

I think you mean "maim."

However, if I'm wrong and you really do mean "mime"...then by all means, carry on, and I hope to catch your one-man, white-face, silent-gesture, act-of-death in game soon!

[jhunter]

Do I wish I could mime someone and have them be satisfied with getting away alive.  Yes, I do.  Unfortunately, I, too, have come across those who would rather have the "Domingo Montoya" attitudes far too often for my liking, and I and my characters find it somewhat easier (and safer, for me and that which I value) to eliminate said threat.  I'd gladly mime, if it lead to someone keeping their character.  Mime, in Arm., though, seems to bring up the thought that they're now at a coded disadvantage, or have to constantly RP as if they were..and that wears on people who would rather be out having fun being that "super-hero" we dream about, instead of Gimpy McAmos who lost a few fingers or a full hand for having tried said lost hand at being a raider, and lost.

lol Gimf beat me to it.

[jhunter]

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,15102.0.html

It just occurred to me that this is another non-pk avenue that is cut off as well.

[Gimfalisette]

You already have the ability to pursue that type of plotline, with the consent of the intended victim. And that's a completely unnecessary derail, which does not benefit this thread in the least. Putting free-for-all rape into the game would not be beneficial, period. End of story.

[jhunter]

In the stance that a pc could be (fadetoblack) raped rather than killed is a completely relevant detail. I still stand by the point that they shouldn't have the choice whether or not something negative happens to your character. Only whether it is fully rp'ed out or fade to black. End of story.

[Gimfalisette]

Raping a PC rather than killing them will somehow stop them from coming back for revenge, which is the primary reason listed on this thread as why players choose to PK? Or it will somehow be easier to do than killing, which is another huge reason? No, and no.

All that putting rape into the game would do is alienate and drive away players (mostly female) who have suffered sexual abuse in real life, and other players (both female and male) who find forcing RPed rape and its consequences on other players to be reprehensible.

Show me it's good for the game, jhunter, and then you maybe have a case. But you can't show me that; all you can do is continue to repeat, "But I want it in."

[jhunter]

You're misunderstanding my point. The point is that it is another avenue of action that can be taken against other character, like torture, robbery, maiming, etc, -instead- of death. That is my only point to it. Nothing else, I never stated that it would prevent retailiation. It is another avenue of action that can be taken against other pcs without killing them that doesn't require staff approval or assistance. (if it wasn't up to the player whether they can avoid it happening to their character or not) I mean, I guess if you want to have your pc killed rather than raped, I guess that's your choice. I was just pointing it out since it was a staffer that brought up the entire thread anyway. It's sending a message of: Try not to kill people, do this or this, but not this, maybe this, this is okay, but you can never do that...

[Pale Horse]

Do I wish I could mime someone and have them be satisfied with getting away alive.  Yes, I do.  Unfortunately, I, too, have come across those who would rather have the "Domingo Montoya" attitudes far too often for my liking, and I and my characters find it somewhat easier (and safer, for me and that which I value) to eliminate said threat.  I'd gladly mime, if it lead to someone keeping their character.  Mime, in Arm., though, seems to bring up the thought that they're now at a coded disadvantage...

I think you mean "maim."

However, if I'm wrong and you really do mean "mime"...then by all means, carry on, and I hope to catch your one-man, white-face, silent-gesture, act-of-death in game soon!

Uh..yes...yes, I did mean "maim" ...and I don't know why I put "mime"

...oops

[Gimfalisette]

jhunter, there's exactly one action, within a whole range of potential actions, that is explicitly prevented by policy unless the victim's consent is given. This seems like an extremely unproductive direction for conversation.

[KankWhisperer]

This thread actually made me pretty sad in portions. I'll try to address the one thing I've seen here that is somewhat pointed at staff, and the others as just another player who loves this game.

PLAYER PORTION/My opinion:
Get the favor of that Templar/Militia - that influencial Noble - that powerful assassin - make alot of friends to keep tabs on your enemies so they can't even scratch their butts without you knowing it.

Except that few actually want bribes. Templars don't really want bribes, they just take your coins and kill you. The Noble turns you over to the templar who kills you, and the assassin just kills you. I've never bribed anyone that actually was any benefit to me.

[jhunter]

jhunter, there's exactly one action, within a whole range of potential actions, that is explicitly prevented by policy unless the victim's consent is given. This seems like an extremely unproductive direction for conversation.

All I'm saying is that (however minor it may be) it -is- a potentially contributing factor that may steer people more toward PK. The fewer options you have besides killing them, the more likely it is that you will kill them. Can we at least agree upon that? I'm not saying whether or not the rule is correct. I'm just saying that it is a sort of contradiction to "Look for other things to do to characters besides killing them."

[KankWhisperer]

You're misunderstanding my point. The point is that it is another avenue of action that can be taken against other character, like torture, robbery, maiming, etc, -instead- of death. That is my only point to it. Nothing else, I never stated that it would prevent retailiation. It is another avenue of action that can be taken against other pcs without killing them that doesn't require staff approval or assistance. (if it wasn't up to the player whether they can avoid it happening to their character or not) I mean, I guess if you want to have your pc killed rather than raped, I guess that's your choice. I was just pointing it out since it was a staffer that brought up the entire thread anyway. It's sending a message of: Try not to kill people, do this or this, but not this, maybe this, this is okay, but you can never do that...

I get your point I think. Basically its OOC considerations influencing IC stuff. Our OOC culture making certain things IC unavailable. I agree with you, but I don't think going to happen bro. People will force you to kill them rather than rape them which is sort of what we are talking about... Just let that sleeping gortok lie. Start playing the game again by the way