Suiciding: The Unspoken Rule

[Blackisback]

Let me start off by saying that I've only been playing for a few months now, so my perception of the game might be flawed. Everything I'm saying here is from first-hand accounts I've had with other players (all of whom are far more knowledgeable of the game than I am) and that while I may be wrong, I'd wish the Arm fanatics to take things easy. After all, this is just a game.

So, suiciding. It seems to be a lot more common than I thought. I've made a handful of OOC player connections over the past few months. I've met twinks and diehards, in-game legends and in-game nobodies, people that have been playing for years and people who have only been playing marginally longer than I have. Throughout all of these different players though, there seems to be one general rule of thumb:

If you have shitty stats, kill your character and make another one.

This technique is called suiciding, and although I've heard it's frowned upon, I have yet to see or hear of any kind of disciplinary action taken against it.

I personally have many reasons to suicide, as well as many reasons not to.

Pros-
*high stats makes playing easier
*having high stats makes characters more fun
*with high stats you have a greater chance of being noticed for your abilities, and thus will likely have a more robust role playing experience
*lower chance of being overshadowed by other, better statted characters

Cons-
*the stat average is absurdly high (IE Extremely Good strength seems to be the new average for fighter characters)
*less interesting overall characters (IE you spend time making a cool character but you end up with shit stats. You suicide and constantly make new characters. Chances are you'll end up with an overall less dynamic character, both description wise and role playing wise)
*chance of being disciplined by Arm staff

I think the overall problem with suiciding is the way stats work. Stats are -way- too important. Stats seem to increase and decrease exponentially, meaning a high statted fighter is going to be vastly superior to the average statted fighter, no matter the difference in playtime between them. Sure, gear comes into play, but then the high statted fighter is going to have access to a much broader array of equipment than the average statted fighter. I'm pretty sure everyone here can attest to the incredible differences between everything extremely good+ and everything very good-.

I'm neither for nor against suiciding. I understand the stigma it holds and I understand that there are players who genuinely get good stat rolls and players who, despite their bad stats, manage to become exceptional characters.
I guess what I'm asking is what are your takes on suiciding? Do you have any ideas as to how we can make suiciding a less enticing option?

[Yam]

I usually only suicide for stats if it makes the character absurdly frustrating to play.

I don't care if people suicide. It's like abortion. I support free choice.

[Nyr]

If you don't want to play your character for whatever reason, you have the option to store your character.  Staff members prefer that you store rather than suicide.

For some players, stats don't matter.  They would like to discuss the merits of roleplaying weakness, and frown upon people who store or suicide based on stats.
For some players, stats matter a lot.  They would like to discuss the weakness of the system that prevents them from selecting stats the way they want to select them.
For some players, the fact that staff expects players to wait on staff to be stored irks them.  They would like a system that allows self-storage either for all roles or for all roles that are not staff-sponsored.
For some players, suiciding or storing characters on a regular basis may come up in the course of account notes and sponsored roles in a negative manner.

I think I covered everything you could possibly read in past or future discussions of this.  While we have a lot on our collective staff plates, the issue of stat selection, storages, and suicides has come up in the past.

[Shalooonsh]

Instant Gratification.

That's all that stats are.  Good stats mean you come out of the starting gate hard and fast, which seems to be an important thing for people who have a problem keeping a character alive for more than five days playtime.  After that initial period, the importance of stats exponentially decreases.  This is due to a number of reasons, including but not limited to skill gain, social interaction, character development, long-lived roleplaying scenarios, and a general understanding that getting your PC in to dangerous situations can make it either slightly more powerful or severely dead.

For some players, combat is the enjoyment they get out of the game.  Knowing they have bested gith #219 and scrab #23784762 is a very important facet of the game.  It makes them feel a quick burst of victory, a swift rush of success.  It makes them feel like they've won.

But there is no winning in Armageddon, unless you're Ginka.  Every character made will eventually add a few grains to the infinite dunes.  Good stats or bad, eventually you'll be stuck in the ears, eyes, nose, throat, and nether-regions of whoever still lives.

If you like that quick take off, stats are important.  If you don't, they aren't.  As Nyr stated, we do prefer people to store.  As for discipline, I have certainly (and will continue to do so) denied players who ask for sponsored roles because I have no faith that if they roll a single below average that they won't take a flying leap off of the first high thing on to the closest sharp thing.  They've already proven time and time again that stats matter more than story, and that's not what I'm searching for in a sponsored role.

[ibusoe]

I admire the courage that it took to post something like this.

[Jengal]

Bad stats are definitely a deterrent for me, but I can't think of a time that I have suicided, due to the fact I'm shit scared of the staff finding out, and like, deleting me. 

[brytta.leofa]

Do you have any ideas as to how we can make suiciding a less enticing option?

I'll go on the middle-of-the-road assumption: you don't need your new PC to be an out-of-the-box killing machine, but you also don't want to be frustrated.

- Know when not to reroll.  Strive for playable stats, not awesome stats.  One bad stat shouldn't be a dealbreaker--and, with stat ordering, shouldn't be a big surprise.
- Understand the affects of youth.  A teenaged character with iffy strength will grow out of it.

If you use stat ordering and have reasonable expectations, it's extremely likely that each of your characters will get very playable stats without staff intervention.

[Yam]

I think all of my suicides and "Oh fuck I can't believe I just did that." run together.

Regardless of my character's wisdom stat, they're only as smart as I am.

[deviant storm]

Stats matter.

But only up to a point. In this game, it isn't about being uber at whatever. It's about the roleplay. Some people don't appreciate being dealt a statistical handicap via the coding, but other people find it worthwhile to work around such things. So your warrior has bad strength? You can always change your concept a little to compensate. Such a character could be roleplayed in a good many ways that would make the extra challenge fun. And as Shalooonsh pointed out there is less of a difference after that character has some experience under their belt.

Thoughts of this desert elf character I played once make me smile. I think this was back in the day before we got to put the stats in the order of their importance, during the application process. She had poor strength and poor agility too. Gurths would beat her up. I decided she was crazy, and had a good deal of fun interacting with other people with her. She never wore footwear, and it was surprising how many people tried to give the elf something to wear on her feet.

I had the option to let her die in the arena in 'nak and didn't take it. Mostly because I was having fun. Why should stats mean knocking off a perfectly good concept, when a few tweaks can make it fun to play?

[brytta.leofa]

Regardless of my character's wisdom stat, they're only as smart as I am.

If exploring is suicide, I've suicided all my best-statted characters. 

[Gobbleneck]

I really have no problem with it.  I do it a lot, especially if I make say...
the brawny, hack-handed man
strength, endurance, agility, wisdom
Then I find out he gets shit on all those.  He could only wield one weapon in the first place, so what's even the point of trying to make him the awesome one-handed warrior I envisioned?  Or even DECENT one-handed warrior... there is none, unless you enjoy roleplaying out being a total puffball.


In some cases, stats -don't- matter.  Like some said - yeah, go with the crappy stats.  Make it so they sniff too much spice because your burly warrior is mentally a weakling [scared of getting hit and hitting too hard unless he does some +str spice], or make them a social character.  Like an ex-warrior that's taken up begging.

That's really the only way scragging off your char is a less enticing option to me.  That and the bad account notes that would probably go with frequent killing-offs after a while.

However, my take on suiciding is that... if I made a character under the pretense of being decent and he rolls shit and he doesn't have the background to go with this, then yep, I'll kill him off.  It does make me feel a little bad though... because the staff -do- have to take the time to read those apps.

[Nyr]

Regardless of my character's wisdom stat, they're only as smart as I am.

If exploring is suicide, I've suicided all my best-statted characters. 

One of my favorite characters died because he sucked as a ranger, which was due to me sucking as a ranger player.  I imagine my staff at the time questioned whether it was a suicide, considering I had kept the character alive for almost two years at that point.

[Blackisback]

Instant Gratification.

That's all that stats are.  Good stats mean you come out of the starting gate hard and fast, which seems to be an important thing for people who have a problem keeping a character alive for more than five days playtime.  After that initial period, the importance of stats exponentially decreases.  This is due to a number of reasons, including but not limited to skill gain, social interaction, character development, long-lived roleplaying scenarios, and a general understanding that getting your PC in to dangerous situations can make it either slightly more powerful or severely dead.

For some players, combat is the enjoyment they get out of the game.  Knowing they have bested gith #219 and scrab #23784762 is a very important facet of the game.  It makes them feel a quick burst of victory, a swift rush of success.  It makes them feel like they've won.

But there is no winning in Armageddon, unless you're Ginka.  Every character made will eventually add a few grains to the infinite dunes.  Good stats or bad, eventually you'll be stuck in the ears, eyes, nose, throat, and nether-regions of whoever still lives.

If you like that quick take off, stats are important.  If you don't, they aren't.  As Nyr stated, we do prefer people to store.  As for discipline, I have certainly (and will continue to do so) denied players who ask for sponsored roles because I have no faith that if they roll a single below average that they won't take a flying leap off of the first high thing on to the closest sharp thing.  They've already proven time and time again that stats matter more than story, and that's not what I'm searching for in a sponsored role.

I see where you're going with this. I guess my problem is that I expect my characters to last, and having low stats means I'm that much less likely to do so. If I'm going to die in the first few hours of play, I might as well die immediately and try again.

[Yam]

Regardless of my character's wisdom stat, they're only as smart as I am.

If exploring is suicide, I've suicided all my best-statted characters. 

One of my favorite characters died because he sucked as a ranger, which was due to me sucking as a ranger player.  I imagine my staff at the time questioned whether it was a suicide, considering I had kept the character alive for almost two years at that point.

Crap. I've barely kept a character alive for two weeks.

[Zoltan]

I've never suicided a character for stats, though I've come close a few times from IC happenings. I don't think I would ever kill a character just because of stats, because I think about them too much before hand. I -would- be really disappointed though, and if they were particularly unplayable, more likely to put them in risky situations.

Of course, I haven't had a totally bad stat situation, except with my first PC (a guild_warrior Byn sergeant with BA strength and agility), but he doesn't count because I didn't realize the impact of stats back then. My most frustrating one yet was a human Whiran with poor agility, just because the severely limited inv space DROVE ME FUCKING NUTS. But in his case, his god-like wisdom, strength and endurance rolls made up for it.

I guess my thoughts on the matter are that stats can have a really big effect on a character, and I understand why people would suicide for a better roll. I don't think I'd ever do that, though.

[LoD]

I see where you're going with this. I guess my problem is that I expect my characters to last, and having low stats means I'm that much less likely to do so. If I'm going to die in the first few hours of play, I might as well die immediately and try again.

This is highly dependent upon the type of character that you play, as well as how risky you tend to play them.  It's extremely easy to have a long-lived PC if you're willing to be patient and accept a gradual progression over a longer period of time.  It sounds like you might be putting your characters into situations that they probably aren't skilled enough to survive, but have gotten lucky with some decent stat roll and perhaps have begun to believe they are necessary to achieve success.

I would highly suggest playing a non-combat role sometime, which doesn't really depend upon any stats just to see whether that comes to change your perception of what is possible and what marks a fun/good character.  I know that helped for me.

-LoD

[Cutthroat]

Nah, you can last with low stats, though it's a bit harder to do so.

I had an assassin last about 30 days and a ranger last about 40 days and they both had low strength and endurance stats. I intended for both of those characters to have high agility, though, and it helped a lot to just make them make sense. Stats tend to compensate for each other, and it's fairly easy to figure out how to get a certain type of roll if you desperately needed it for a concept (as in, if you want high wisdom and endurance you could do it; if you wanted well-rounded stats all around it's also possible).

I think the problem people see with suiciding is that it's not an IC action since Zalanthans tend to preserve their own lives (except for interesting cultural cases). I see it as a problem when suicides involve other players. It's when another PC spots the body and has to deal with just finding out someone they saw at the Gaj yesterday and shared a drink with is dead, or when they profit from it. It's when a suicidal PC attacks another PC and severely wounds them just to attract the soldiers.

Basically, if you absolutely must kill yourself, do it away from other people. Hey, kind of like my view of suicide IRL.

[Synthesis]

Stats matter over the long term, as well.

For example, agility clearly lends a bonus to stealth skills.  Assuming all race/guild combos have the same maximum skill cap, and assuming wisdom doesn't affect the maximum skill cap, the race with the highest agility, or the person with the highest agility roll will have a higher total cap.  Whether the extra 2, 5, 10, or whatever points you gain from your statroll gives you a perceptible advantage probably depends on the skill in question.

Strength, in particular, is an incredibly important stat if you're planning on getting into a fight.  It dictates how much armor you can wear and at what encumbrance.  It dictates how heavy your weapons can be, and by extension how -good- the weapons you use can be (since as a general rule, heavier weapons tend to be better), and how many of them you can carry.  It dictates how much extra water, food, and supplies you can carry with you before you start taking penalties.  It determines (in conjunction with agility...but clearly strength plays the major role) how much damage you will do, perhaps even your to-hit roll.  It determines which bows you can use, and how much damage you do with the throw skill.

(That being said:  -great- strength isn't essential to success.  I think a lot of my clanmates would be pretty surprised at my current character's actual strength roll.)

Agility is also an incredibly important stat when it comes to defense...the difference in both out-of-the-box and long-term dodging (and perhaps even parrying and shield use) capability and damage avoidance between high and low agility (even within the same race) PCs is almost patently obvious once you've played more than one long-term combat-oriented character.  

That's not to say that someone with low strength/agility can't, over time, become much better than someone with high strength/agility...however, over an equal amount of time, the PC with higher stats will always be better (ceteris paribus).  Furthermore, once you hit your guild maximums, that higher-statted character will retain those advantages indefinitely...and these advantages can be HUGE.  We're talking about the difference between being able to a) kill a tarantula while taking only one or two blows in return and b) being able to tank 3 tarantulas at very heavy encumbrance after drinking two bottles of flame without even getting hit, or the difference between a) being able to OHK even sturdy dwarves with a backstab and b) barely being able to bring an ancient, decrepit half-elf to "poor" condition with a backstab.

Whether this affects your enjoyment of the game, on the other hand, is a personal matter.  I've only had 2 stat rolls (that I can remember) out of my 70-some past characters that so seriously affected my enjoyment that I actually suicided them.  One was a minimum-age desert elf who rolled below-average or poor everything (before the stat-aging system was implemented), who couldn't use a weapon heavier than 3 or 4 stone, and who would literally bounce dozens of consecutive attacks on tregils.  Another was a half-elf who had pretty much the same problem.

I'll admit that I've suicided for other reasons, though....usually for circumstances that lead to exceptional boredom that have nothing to do with stats or skills or anything but the path I happened to take the character down.

[jstorrie]

Rather than suiciding, if you are really set on ridding yourself of your PC you can just play dangerously. Con nobles and templars. Tell people off at the Gaj. Commit crimes. There are plenty of ways to ensure your PC will be dead before two or three days played which are way more fun–and way more believable–than simply bashing the first NPC red-robe you see.

[Greve]

.

[Case]

I never heard of anyone ever doing it on SoI or Harshlands, for example.

It happened all the time, over stats or boredom or whatever other reasons. The ability for players to retire their own characters reduced it a lot.

[Greve]

.

[Lizzie]

If I had a character that relied on having a "useful" particular stat, and it ended up "poor" then I would -consider- suiciding if a reroll didn't fix it. However, I've never had that happen. All my rangers have had "useful" rangerly stats. All my merchants have had "useful" merchantly stats. In other words, the "primary stats" that are most closely associated with being a "serviceable" main-guild, have always been some degree of "better" than average.

However also, I've never tried to play a half-giant merchant. I imagine anyone who does, will find difficulty with sucky wisdom, even if they roll an AI. I've never tried to play a desert elf warrior. I imagine anyone who does, will find difficulty with inferior strength, even if they roll an AI.

On the other hand, that HG merchant will never have too much trouble fighting his way out of competition with another merchant. And that desert elf warrior will probably be the envy of all his tribemates when it comes to beating something over the head with a blunt object.

So it really does depend - but if I rolled up a desert elf ranger/archer, and ended up with "poor" agility and couldn't find an appropriate bow, I'd consider suicide/store. Otherwise, I don't really give all -that- much thought to stats.

[Is Friday]

Personally, I suicide if I roll less than D cups.

[Myrdryn]

Wanting better stats enough to kill your own character to make a new one seems to me to go against the very spirit of the game.  I don't think enabling that kind of behavior would be productive.  If it's just that people want better stats, imagine if everyone had the stats that they really wanted.  Would that make the game better or worse?  I think it'd make the game worse.  Is it just to make people happy?  It isn't possible to please everyone.

Some more cons to add to the list:
Wastes the suicider's time
Wastes staff's time
Disrupts the game world/economy which in turn disrupts everyone that plays in some degree.
Plus it breeds a spirit of trying to gaming the system in the person that does this kind of thing, because they are trying to 'beat the system'.  I generally find that when I play with this kind of spirit I'd be better off seeking a sense of achievement elsewhere and coming back to this game to roleplay.  Many people play the game to 'win it', they might get close, but they never win it.  They are only left wanting and are more disappointed the harder they try.

Fixing/changing stats isn't going to fix attitudes and motives for playing.