Suiciding: The Unspoken Rule

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Yeh, just be happy they put stat ordering in. I remember how many people were against it back in the day. I wasn't one of them, but I still remembered the complaints and arguments against it.

I have suicided before. I won't ever again. Once I got the hang of things and the way everybody had a story, stats or not, there just wasn't a point anymore.

[Aleksandr]

Eh... it's something i've considered, seeing as how my character's pretty much a slow, out of shape weakling trying to play warrior. His only benefit is being a near-genius, but that isn't quite having the benefit I'd hoped.

I never expected him to survive more than a few minutes, but he has. I don't particularly want to throw out everything my guy's done ICly, but damn it sucks getting stomped on by people that I've practiced way more than.

[Clearsighted]

Being able to order your stats, and then reroll, basically gives 8 chances to get at least one great stat where it really matters.

And I have found that two of the four stats don't matter much at all, and of the two stats generally considered the most important, one of those (contrary to popular belief) can effectively become worthless, at least fighting wise, depending on how long you survive. (Hint, it has to do with offense/defense). There are a couple more things underneath the surface that will make you continue to improve in certain areas, besides stats or skills as well. There are in-game ways to make up for stats. One is easy and readily available, and the other is hard and difficult, but quite do-able given the effort. There are also other 'gickery' things that can raise stats. Seriously, I'd wager few templars ever had to worry about their stats...

In fact, all the 'class' karma roles aren't really stat dependent at all. The elemental gickers, sorcs, mindbenders...I can't really think of any instance where with stat ordering and a reroll they can't get what they need to dominate the game if played right. There is such immense power at their disposal as to really make no difference in the long run. They will also have the easiest time using other in game methods to change them.

There are three race karma roles (not counting halflings) where stats can make a difference. Without getting into specifics, a mul will be badass no matter what. I can't really see any kind of circumstance where a mul wouldn't dominate any kind of physical class, even if he rolled poors in every single stat. Half-giants are always going to suck in agility and wisdom as to not make a difference either way hardly, and are always going to be amazing in strength and endurance. Even a below average strength warrior half-giant will easily slaughter meks, silt horrors and bahamets, etc. I've seen it.

The one karma race where stats can really make or break you are desert elves. Getting shitty strength as a delf can make for a shitty life. Also, rangers probably benefit the most from high stats in general, and most delves are rangers. Assassins too, kinda, sorta...But they can definitely do what the need to do, almost regardless of stats, if played right. Since plenty of elves have made great assassins despite their strength, and agility is not crucial to what they do best.

Getting a good HP roll is nice too. Especially the difference it makes in the long run. And hell, after all this, a lot of roles don't depend on stats at all. In fact, the most powerful roles in the game, do not. And they have a legion of NPC and PC killers to protect them. There are a lot of these roles available for play.

That said. I tend to play very dangerously and sometimes impetuously. When I roll great stats (which happens fairly rarely) do I feel so overwhelmed and lucky, that I will take exceptional care to not die stupidly? Yes. Maybe I should treat them all the same, but I'm not perfect. I do play much more conservatively, carefully and smartly, if I get unusually fortunate, to try and make it last as long as possible. Though, I had an AI strength PC die retardedly recently as well. Sigh. That made me a bit more paranoid with my new PC.

[jstorrie]

It's very rare that anyone should be able to get an adult PC with a 'poor' in their 'most important stat', since your stats are modified somewhat based on your class. I've only ever once got a poor-strength warrior, for example. Now that there's also stat-ordering, PCs which are unplayable should be incredibly rare.

[Old Kank]

I think that if you suicide your character over poor stats, you're missing the thing that makes this such a great game.

Did you put any thought into developing your character, or did you just throw something together because you wanted to get into the game as fast as possible?  Did you spend several hours writing up that perfect description, or coming up with a background that is more full and vivid than anything you could explain in the background description area?  Have you taken the time to feel out all the little nuances and personality quirks of your character, and thought about all the things you want to accomplish with them?  Were you excited about the chance to breathe life into this character?

If you did all of that and you're willing to throw it away because your PC's stats don't match their description, well, I don't know what to say.

If you whipped up a character off the cuff, while in char gen, just because you're between ideas, or still trying to get a feel for the game, or you just want to explore, or you just want to kill gith #249, then, well... to each their own.  But, for your next character, you might consider taking a bit of time to develop a deep, three-dimensional character that's more than just a bunch of numbers on a stat sheet.

[Xagon]

I'll be honest. I have no problem whatsoever suiciding a character because of lousy stats. To this date I have not done so. The problem is that I get so involved with the character, spending so much time building up its personality, connections, and skills, that I don't have the heart to restart it on my own.

Your strength is below average, your agility is below average,
  your wisdom is poor, and your endurance is average.

Those were the stats of my most favorite character, now deceased. He didn't have much playtime, but he was damn important to quite a few people, and able to hold his own in a fight.

I would advocate for being able to select your abilities on a point-value system, but I've seen enough statwhores in my D&D games to know that's mostly a bad idea. Same thing with having permanent increases readily available in game. In the end, I think the best solution would be to put in a request to staff saying "I'm not having any fun with my below average agility warrior because he can't fulfill his duties well. He's supposed to be a <insert character outline here> and the agility is seriously hampering that. Could I get a boost to it?" This would be more an OOC request, as opposed to "He's been pumping weights for two months. Pump his strength please."

This would let staff screen though requests, as well as put up a sufficient roadblock to prevent people from abusing the system somehow.

[valeria]

I would possibly consider storing, if my character's start and reroll stats both didn't match my concept for her, but with stat ordering I don't see this happening often, if at all.  This would only happen if, based on the stats, the character could NOT have the background I'd written, or thought up for her.  If I put so much time into a background, I want the character to at least plausibly match it.

I think suiciding would be a bad way to go, though.  You can always store.  Sure, it might take an extra little bit, but if you're playing this game regularly at all, it's not like you're totally devoid of free time or something.

[Dar]

I've allowed my characters to live dangerously when their stats are bad.


wait ... I allow 'all' of my characters to live dangerously.


Nevermind.

[Twilight]

I have had exactly one character that had an "unplayable" stat, but this was due to the race/guild combination that I chose, and was before stat ordering.  Even then I was able to "fix" it due to knowledge of the game and continue on.

That race/guild combination type is the only one that I can think of that could potentially leave you with an "unplayable" character.

[DustMight]

I find it sad that one player can know what the "new average" is for any stat.  Too much OOC - but that' the new Arm, I guess.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I've suicided two PC's to date. Neither has been over their stats.

PC 1: Felt like she killed her daughter and jumped off the Shield Wall. Head first. (Staff assisted.)
       I actually -hated- suiciding that PC. To this date, she's had, IIRC, my best stats so far.  Not to mention how very, very much I enjoyed not only playing her but the interactions she had.  I actually ragequit Arm for like 2 months after that, then stored 3 PC's in a row because I simply didn't enjoy them and couldn't get into the concepts, at all.

PC 2: The PC before my current one. She lasted about 8 hours. I suicided her because -everyone- in the city-state acted like they already knew her and kept asking if she was secretly a <guild> (which she was, but so was the pc before that that everyone was treating her like). Now, half of the fun in Arm for me is the -different- dynamics my different PCs get to build with those around them. She was robbed of both that, and the entirety of her intended concept by 3 hours played. Finally, she went out walking and still managed to outrun a <animal> before the<otheranimal>got her. Because she wouldn't have simply been like 'Oh, a <animal>, let's sit here and stare at it.'. She got chased down and eaten. Because I couldn't bring myself to let her just  let herself die to the first animal.

But to each his own.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I find it sad that one player can know what the "new average" is for any stat.  Too much OOC - but that' the new Arm, I guess.

Actually, if you roll five characters, with the same priority roll and the same class, you know. It's not that hard to figure out.

[MarshallDFX]

I assert that an n of five is likely to have too large a confidence interval to make conclusive generalizations about the true mean stat.

[Reiloth]

I played a Haruch Kemad elven crimelord with 3 poor stats and 1 BA stat.

It was my favorite character to date, and I was really sad to see him go more than my TRIPLE EXCEPTIONAL WARRIOR OF BADASSERY!

There's something about having shitty stats that just makes you say "Fuck it" and play Armageddon like it should be played.

Then again, I am a sucker for awesome stats. It's nice to stand out in the crowd, but it usually leads to you being a leader. So -- Middle of the road, FTW!

[Fathi]

I've played some damn long-lived and some damn enjoyable characters in my day, some of which had completely awful stats, and their handicaps didn't stop me from enjoying them at all. It was a rewarding and interesting - and often challenging - RP experience and I don't regret seeing them through to the end at all.

But bollocks if I'm going to play the plucky underdog who just wants to be a badass someday, ma! every goddamn time I roll a combat PC. I'm not ashamed to admit I've stored PCs over stats in the past. I don't tend to put my heart and soul into every single random character concept I whip up, and unless the concept is something real special and interesting to me, I'm not gonna shed any tears over a quick storage if the PC's stats are bad enough that I think it will affect my playing them in a significant way, nor will I hesitate to store if the concept ceases to be interesting to me. I play Armageddon for fun and it isn't very fun to force yourself to roleplay a character that just doesn't entertain you anymore.

I would not advise anyone to store or suicide a character based on horrible stats unless they've actually tried to play a PC with horrible stats before and experienced it. It can be a lot more rewarding and in the case of many guilds you can still end up quite skilled, if that's what you're worried about.

It just sometimes feels a little old hat to me, since I've done it before and it ends up feeling like playing the same character over again, mostly due to my tendency to roll stats that tend toward the crappier end of the bell curve. "Ah, yes, Talia reminds me of my LAST half-elf warrior with poor strength and poor wisdom and below average endurance!"

[Pale Horse]

  My two favorite characters in Arm., out of the 80+ I've had, have had what I would considering "average" stats...for one of my characters, that is.  Both ended up with a couple above average/average stats, a poor and usually something rather nice.

  I frowned when I saw the poor.  But I stuck with it.  It wasn't worth not having fun because of just a single "bad" stat.

  Playing with said "bad" stat helped defined my character a lot better than anything I had done during the creative process of thinking up said character.
What's that quote from Batman Begins?  "It's not who I am, but what I do, that defines me"?  Something like that.  My characters have grown a lot more by doing, than they have by any other means.

  And for me, at this stage in my Arm. experience, character development and role-play are far more important than the biggest, baddest stat rolls for that uber Mage or Warrior.  But, then again, I'm not playing a combat/physical-conflict oriented role.  Maybe my views would change, were I doing so.  Then again, maybe not.  What might have been, my friend.  What might have been...

[Clearsighted]

I played a Haruch Kemad elven crimelord with 3 poor stats and 1 BA stat.

It was my favorite character to date, and I was really sad to see him go more than my TRIPLE EXCEPTIONAL WARRIOR OF BADASSERY!

There's something about having shitty stats that just makes you say "Fuck it" and play Armageddon like it should be played.

Then again, I am a sucker for awesome stats. It's nice to stand out in the crowd, but it usually leads to you being a leader. So -- Middle of the road, FTW!

Having those shit stats as a Haruch Kemad crimelord probably helped more than hinder him in surviving, psychologically speaking.

[Dar]

Played a character who was known to most as Nez. (Over a year ago). The guy rolled a poor endurance and had awful health. Ended up rping out all kinds of shakes and maladies, which resulted in very fun plots and twists. So yeah, poor stats 'can' result in awesome RP.


Played a Ranger with poor strength ... attacked a gurth. For first 5 minutes ... he emoted. For next 15 minutes,  I kind of ... looked at the screen dully. For 'another' 15 minutes ... I was reading my emails. Was it fun ... I gotta say ... not really. And all that just to get gurth into a 'shell'. I'll admit ... I wasnt enjoying it one bit.

[flurry]

I haven't ever, and won't.

I think it makes stats even more important, by artificially raising the average. But more importantly, I just think it goes against the spirit of the game. It's playing Armageddon on easy mode.

I've had some horrible stats in characters who really depended on stats, but fortunately I've never experienced unplayable stats. I guess if I did get stats that were truly unplayable, I'd email to request a bump. In an ideal world, chargen could be tweaked so unplayable stats simply could never occur. As it is now, with stat ordering, I suspect unplayable stats are already exceedingly rare.

One good thing about threads like this is that they counter the false assumption people make that "everyone" does stuff like this (which I think, unfortunately, becomes a rationale for people to keep doing it).

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I assert that an n of five is likely to have too large a confidence interval to make conclusive generalizations about the true mean stat.

Ok, ten.

Point is, OOC is not required to establish an average on some code mechanic. And this mechanic has been in long enough for people to have had 30 characters, 40 even.

[LoD]

I've made a handful of OOC player connections over the past few months. I've met twinks and diehards, in-game legends and in-game nobodies, people that have been playing for years and people who have only been playing marginally longer than I have. Throughout all of these different players though, there seems to be one general rule of thumb:

If you have shitty stats, kill your character and make another one.

It's good to debate this type of mentality, but I think there's also something to be said about how you came to this information and perhaps the quality of the source.  This is a completely separate issue, but you may want to reconsider entering into OOC conversations with other players -- especially those that are touting this party line.  I also think flurry's point is especially true here -- which is that this type of behavior is not necessarily "common" or practiced by "everyone".  I've never stat-suicided a character myself, and believe that with the new stat-ordering system, it's very difficult to get unplayable stats.  And if I've ever felt that I received an unplayable stat, I've always found the Staff to be accommodating in helping me enjoy the role.

That might be because I don't frequently make any stat-related requests.  I've never sent in RP logs asking for stat bumps, and I've never asked for "rerolls" or anything later in the character's life hoping for some better stats.  My stats have always been good enough in the areas where they count for me to be successful.  The most I've done is asked for one stat to be lowered and another raised after rerolling if I failed to reach some minimal level (i.e. I couldn't wield any of the bows for sale in the city) that was going to be integral to my intended character (ranger/archer).  And that's only happened to me once.

Based on the random stats I've received in my last 10 characters or so, it seems more likely to me that some people simply place to high a value on stats than there truly being some major issue with the stats themselves or the stat-ordering system.  I've made a few suggestions in the past on how I think they could improve stat-related issues, but I'm fairly content with the current setup.

-LoD

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Personally, I'm shocked that everybody he talked to thought it was ok to suicide.

[Halcyon]

My impression was that this is also a newbie / veteran divide on survivability.  Now that I can keep a character alive more than two or three days, I'm not as insistent on higher stats.  It took learning a new playstyle for me, though.

[solera]

disclaimer: I have never suicided, even if it ever looked that way. 

[Shalooonsh]

Personally, I'm shocked that everybody he talked to thought it was ok to suicide.

It's always the same crowd that says it.  Perhaps I'm jaded.