Instrument/Music Code

[jhunter]

As it is now, I don't bother with performances simply because I know they didn't have to earn anything. So, either way you have people who dislike performing characters for one reason or another.
Every time I see someone start a performance I think to myself: "Great, here we go again with another shitty performance where I know they didn't earn a damned thing but will do their best to make their pc display as though they mastered their instrument, sing like an angel, dance like a prima ballerina, etc.
It irks the shit out of me. I don't think it's too much to ask to make some of it dependant upon a coded skill.
I've also seen bard pcs put down the performances of non-bard pcs just because they decided "I'm a bard, so anyone who isn't part of the circle must suck." I'd rather there be a coded skill (at least for instruments) to prevent people from being able to arbitrarily decide that someone is good or bad with an instrument.

Almost nothing else in the game allows for it. I don't think it should be as different as it is for performance characters. It's like performance characters get to play in a mush, but other characters have coded skills and restrictions.

[jhunter]

Your example is flawed Lizzie. You're assuming that someone is going to sit and powergame the skill up, in front of -everyone- and not get reported for it. I know I'd report that in a heartbeat.

[flurry]

As it is now, I don't bother with performances simply because I know they didn't have to earn anything.

On the contrary, I never felt so much like I had to earn everything as when I played a bard.

The idea that bards should need to invest a certain amount of time entering "play mandolin" over and over again doesn't appeal to me.

[jhunter]

You had to ICly earn your ability to play an instrument? I've never seen it rp'ed out by any performance character I've ever seen in the game.

[Gimfalisette]

The change you desire would not "fix" anything anyways, since if you take the example of a Poets' Circle Apprentice bard--in order to gain the Apprentice rank, they already have to be proficient for performance with a single instrument. They have ICly earned the proficiency in their instrument before you ever see them perform.

[Jdr]

They could be like Tuluk's gemmers, where instead of sitting in a temple spamming spells, they sit in a garden spamming tunes!

[jcljules]

As it is now, I don't bother with performances simply because I know they didn't have to earn anything. So, either way you have people who dislike performing characters for one reason or another.
Every time I see someone start a performance I think to myself: "Great, here we go again with another shitty performance where I know they didn't earn a damned thing but will do their best to make their pc display as though they mastered their instrument, sing like an angel, dance like a prima ballerina, etc.
It irks the shit out of me. I don't think it's too much to ask to make some of it dependant upon a coded skill.
I've also seen bard pcs put down the performances of non-bard pcs just because they decided "I'm a bard, so anyone who isn't part of the circle must suck should be ignored, disparaged, or brought into the circle, or blackmailed." I'd rather there be a coded skill (at least for instruments) to prevent people from being able to arbitrarily decide that someone is good or bad with an instrument.

Almost nothing else in the game allows for it. I don't think it should be as different as it is for performance characters. It's like performance characters get to play in a mush, but other characters have coded skills and restrictions.

The first thing is wrong. The second thing is supposed to happen, with the modification I made.

You had to ICly earn your ability to play an instrument? I've never seen it rp'ed out by any performance character I've ever seen in the game.

This definitely happens, just most often in private. And this sort of thing is enforced by the charm system, at least among Circle bards.

Also, I feel that the claim that most bards emote playing perfectly and singing with angelic voices is complete bullshit. I've never, ever, ever seen a single bard indicate that their playing is 'wonderful' or 'beautiful' or 'moving.' Most bards I've seen don't indicate the quality of their playing and singing one way or the other. Most bards I've seen just use big words to convey the overall feeling of their pieces. There's a big difference, quite honestly.

Also, I don't generally judge bards based on their 'voices' or 'playing,' because both of those things don't really matter in a text-based environment. I like to see bards use them, but only as 'dressing.' Want to know how I judge bards? I judge them based on the content of their songs, poems and stories. Cause rhyme, meter and poetry take some out of character skill. And gathering stories to tell takes some in character work. And unlike someone emoting an instrumental performance, I can really appreciate a nice poem or a story.

[musashi]

I envision it working the same way any other skill does!!   Players put in their time and effort into creating a dynamic PC for them and others to enjoy!!   

So you're in favor of music being terribly represented in a way that is in no way realistic or in line with the way music actually gets played ... sort of like our obviously flawed and often complained about crafting system.

Here is how the music skill would be if it worked the same as "any other skill" works (and I already said this before, above ... though I'm starting to think folks aren't actually reading the posts others make).

> play guitar

(code checks your skill and tests it)

Possible outcomes:

> You don't know how to play the guitar.
> You try to play a tune, but your strings break!
> You try to play a tune, but it comes out horrible.
> You play the tune perfectly.

I'm sorry, but I'm at a loss for how anyone could think that kind of implementation would enrich the game in any way whatsoever. When was the last time you went to a concert and the professional musician playing failed his music check and botched the entire tune he was playing as a direct result?

This arguement is the same one we have with crafting ... when is the last time you've seen a person mess up one link in a suit of chainmail and thus have the entire vest turn to dust and scatter to the winds?

You haven't, because the real world doesn't work like that and the crafting system is one of those areas where everyone knows the code fails to do justice to the idea its trying to represent.

"Wanting to know if a PC is a skilled musician" is a decent want, but the code in its current form won't do a good job of expressing that at all; and for all the work it would take to have a code flexible enough to do justice to something like music (or crafting) ... the staff's energy is probably better spent elsewhere; since we're getting on fine without the code for music as it stands now.

[X-D]

First, I voted no.

Second, I have seen new bards RP mistakes and being  inept in general.

Third, If there was such a skill and I was playing a bard I would simply bypass it with emotes anyway and give a straight up "fuck off" to anybody that complained.

Forth, I don't really give a fuck if somebody rolls a bard that is an expert from the start. Why, because we do not start PCs as children, they could have 20 years experience already.

Fifth and lastly, it is not a "skill" That can actually affect anybody. Not like D&D bards that can sing songs of traveling or balled of healing and cause people to run like a delf and regenerate at triple speed.

[musashi]

First, I voted no.

Second, I have seen new bards RP mistakes and being  inept in general.

Third, If there was such a skill and I was playing a bard I would simply bypass it with emotes anyway and give a straight up "fuck off" to anybody that complained.

Forth, I don't really give a fuck if somebody rolls a bard that is an expert from the start. Why, because we do not start PCs as children, they could have 20 years experience already.

Fifth and lastly, it is not a "skill" That can actually affect anybody. Not like D&D bards that can sing songs of traveling or balled of healing and cause people to run like a delf and regenerate at triple speed.

I've been straining to resist the urge to start dropping f-bombs in this thread, but yeah ... that's about how I feel.

[Spice Spice Baby]

Fifth and lastly, it is not a "skill" That can actually affect anybody. Not like D&D bards that can sing songs of traveling or balled of healing and cause people to run like a delf and regenerate at triple speed.

The dusky-skinned afro-haired man brandishes his shoulder-slung agafari guitar.

Psychedelic energy begins to swirl around the dusky-skinned, afro-haired man as he weaves a song.

The dusky-skinned, afro-haired man strikes a power chord, healing you with the power of ROCK!
You feel warm as wounds close all over your body. You involunteraily throw devil horns.

[Gimfalisette]

Fifth and lastly, it is not a "skill" That can actually affect anybody. Not like D&D bards that can sing songs of traveling or balled of healing and cause people to run like a delf and regenerate at triple speed.

The dusky-skinned afro-haired man brandishes his shoulder-slung agafari guitar.

Psychedelic energy begins to swirl around the dusky-skinned, afro-haired man as he weaves a song.

The dusky-skinned, afro-haired man strikes a power chord, healing you with the power of ROCK!
You feel warm as wounds close all over your body. You involunteraily throw devil horns.

I actually played a musician PC in Star Wars Galaxies. (Musicians and dancers could give buffs and speed healing.) I thought it was neat, sort of. But it ended up actually detracting from the RP that the RPers wanted to do; no one was ever just in a tavern/cantina to have a good time, everyone was there to get buffed, dood.

How about if we just let highly-skilled bard PCs do damage to everyone in the room instead? Rock on, if so. Oh, but if the bard hits a crit fail with their instrument, then THEY take damage. I wonder how many newb bards we can kill off that way!

[My 2 sids]

Also, I don't generally judge bards based on their 'voices' or 'playing,' because both of those things don't really matter in a text-based environment. I like to see bards use them, but only as 'dressing.' Want to know how I judge bards? I judge them based on the content of their songs, poems and stories. Cause rhyme, meter and poetry take some out of character skill. And gathering stories to tell takes some in character work. And unlike someone emoting an instrumental performance, I can really appreciate a nice poem or a story.

First,  So you just don't want any instrumental bards in the game?  You want them all to be poetry, historical, or singing only?

Second,  Maybe I'm not understanding you here.  Who is "them"?   Because, when you're dealing with a strictly emoted/ non-skill-based PC  all you have to go on is the emoting ability of the PLAYER 


I would just like someone to explain to me why this as a coded skill is such a bad idea w/o the added arrogance of "anyone who uses a coded skill is a pathetic player who wants nothing more than power-game to build skills"

[musashi]

I would just like someone to explain to me why this as a coded skill is such a bad idea w/o the added arrogance of "anyone who uses a coded skill is a pathetic player who wants nothing more than power-game to build skills"

I already did, like four times dude!!! Read the posts I wrote!

[Spice Spice Baby]

I would just like someone to explain to me why this as a coded skill is such a bad idea w/o the added arrogance of "anyone who uses a coded skill is a pathetic player who wants nothing more than power-game to build skills"

I'm pretty sure nobody has said that at all.

My main argument against it is that most PC bards are at least Apprentice rank in a bardic circle, which means they're masters of an instrument already. Which means they'd just have to get the skill buffed up to master level upon character creation anyhow.

[jhunter]

I just simply don't see why every aspect of playing a performance-based pc has to be uncoded and why it's so wrong for any little part of it to be a coded skill like every other fucking class in the game.
Personally, I think it's rather twinkish that people are so against it.

"Oh noes, don't force me to actually have my pc ICly learn to do any aspect of their job codedly like everyone else! Please let me keep my emote-powered twinkery!"

/obvious sarcasm

[jhunter]

Quote from: My 2 sids on September 04, 2009, 02:29:52 AM
I envision it working the same way any other skill does!!   Players put in their time and effort into creating a dynamic PC for them and others to enjoy!!  


So you're in favor of music being terribly represented in a way that is in no way realistic or in line with the way music actually gets played ... sort of like our obviously flawed and often complained about crafting system.

No, I don't believe that's what anyone is saying. I believe that's exactly what some of us are against. Because the way that you described it, is the way I feel it to be -currently-. Currently, the way it works is that the player can simply decide the skill level of their pc and then go with that. In real life, it doesn't work that way, just like anything else, you have to work at an instrument in order to learn to play it well. You don't just get to decide that, "You know, I think I'm going to master the guitar today and *POOF* you're a master of the guitar." The way the game is currently designed in regards to it.
You would instead have to rp out learning to play the instrument of choice and actually spend time in game practicing it in order to be able to have the coded skil to play it at a certain level.

[Gimfalisette]

No, I don't believe that's what anyone is saying. I believe that's exactly what some of us are against. Because the way that you described it, is the way I feel it to be -currently-. Currently, the way it works is that the player can simply decide the skill level of their pc and then go with that. In real life, it doesn't work that way, just like anything else, you have to work at an instrument in order to learn to play it well. You don't just get to decide that, "You know, I think I'm going to master the guitar today and *POOF* you're a master of the guitar." The way the game is currently designed in regards to it.
You would instead have to rp out learning to play the instrument of choice and actually spend time in game practicing it in order to be able to have the coded skil to play it at a certain level.

This bard you're speaking of is a mythical creature. You're advocating for something that is a cure to a problem that does not exist.

[jhunter]

I just described almost every bard I've ever seen in game. Don't discount my own experiences simply because your personal ones differ. I'm not just making something up out of thin air, I'm speaking from personal experience. I'm stating the reasons I have from those experiences that give me a bad taste in my mouth regarding -most- bardic/performance-based pcs I've dealt with over the years. Note: I'm saying -most- not all, there have been a few shining moments here and there but, for the most part, it's been truly disappointing, especially knowing that there's no coded basis for their talent, in any area of playing such a character at all.

[Gimfalisette]

If you actually see that happening, then it would seem legitimate to send a complaint to the imms about it. If you have seen bards of Poets' Circle playing proficiently in public, however, then you haven't seen what you say you've seen. That's just a fact.

[jhunter]

Actually I don't see anywhere in the documentation where it states that -all- bards of the circle are required to be proficient with an instrument. Especially when reading through it that different groups specialize in different areas, some of which have nothing to do with instrumental performance. If you can show me documentation saying otherwise, I'd appreciate it.

[My 2 sids]

I just simply don't see why every aspect of playing a performance-based pc has to be uncoded and why it's so wrong for any little part of it to be a coded skill like every other fucking class in the game.
Personally, I think it's rather twinkish that people are so against it.

"Oh noes, don't force me to actually have my pc ICly learn to do any aspect of their job codedly like everyone else! Please let me keep my emote-powered twinkery!"

/obvious sarcasm

You know, this is making a lot of sense.

musashi, surely you understand how our coded system works don't you?   Coded skills represent background knowledge, so in that sense everyone comes into game at "apprentice" level.  Clans hire PCs of "apprentice" level all the time!!!  What's unfair if Poet's Circle became the same?

Why all this special treatment for bards?

[musashi]

I just simply don't see why every aspect of playing a performance-based pc has to be uncoded and why it's so wrong for any little part of it to be a coded skill like every other fucking class in the game.
Personally, I think it's rather twinkish that people are so against it.

"Oh noes, don't force me to actually have my pc ICly learn to do any aspect of their job codedly like everyone else! Please let me keep my emote-powered twinkery!"

/obvious sarcasm

You know, this is making a lot of sense.

musashi, surely you understand how our coded system works don't you?   Coded skills represent background knowledge, so in that sense everyone comes into game at "apprentice" level.  Clans hire PCs of "apprentice" level all the time!!!  What's unfair if Poet's Circle became the same?

Why all this special treatment for bards?

First off, every aspect of playing a performance based PC is not uncoded. As has been already said ... many times ... the Arcs of Learning for the bardic circle include a great many things that are hard coded, and require skill grinding to improve. The only part that is presently uncoded is the actual performance itself because that's role-playing ... and probably best handled by the emote command.

Now as for your questions ... you'll have to forgive me ... but since I've already typed an answer to this at least three times, I don't really feel like putting forth the effort of doing it again (and likely having it ignored ... again). Here is the cut and paste though.

Prevents instant-master-musicians. To be entirely honest ... I think that this is the meat and potatos of why most people would want a hard coded music skill in the game. This has been brought up several times since I've joined the community, and likely several more times before that. I get the sentiment, I really do. I'm trying to play a hunter and my PC has to suck at their job until they hit 10 days played, so why does this guy playing a bard get to be a really good bard right out of character creation, that's not fair. But keep in mind that the newbie bard who's RP'ing being an awesome drummer or a fantastic guitarist ... ... is still a shitty assassian/merchant/warrior/psion/whatever. I promise. In fact, that newbie bard even sucks at the skills he got from his bard subclass, or whatever other subclass he may have selected. He's going to have to go and grind his coded skills just like everyone else if he wants to later be a part of cool "higher level" storylines and what not. No one is getting a "free pass" by RP'ing the ability to play instruments well. You could walk into a tavern as a new PC and RP being able to read fortunes really well, or dance really well ... some PC's even seem to make a good living whoring. People don't get upset that they didn't RP being terrible at said performances when they first got approved; why do bards alone seem to draw that out of folks? Lastly, I think the whole "we need to prevent insta-master-musicians" thing is a bit of a red herring. I've never actually seen a bard PC try to RP being an insta-master-musician. Most, as has already been said in this thread, pick one instrument they want to be decent with to get the ball rolling ... then they actually RP out being inept at other instruments, and try to better themselves with those other instruments as part of their role-play. I've never seen a trend of people claiming to be able to play everything like a master musician simply because the code wasn't in place to tell them not to. Did this happen at some point in the past? Or is it recent and I'm missing it? Where has this ever occured beyond the rare, quickly discouraged, new player?

And for the record, bards come into the circle at "apprentice" levels as well. It just so happens that an apprentice bard more often than not, has to be proficient in an instrument enough to give performances with it. Later on they have to learn more instruments in order to advance through the Arc of Music.

Lastly ...

Quote from: My 2 sids on September 04, 2009, 02:29:52 AM
I envision it working the same way any other skill does!!   Players put in their time and effort into creating a dynamic PC for them and others to enjoy!!  


So you're in favor of music being terribly represented in a way that is in no way realistic or in line with the way music actually gets played ... sort of like our obviously flawed and often complained about crafting system.

No, I don't believe that's what anyone is saying. I believe that's exactly what some of us are against. Because the way that you described it, is the way I feel it to be -currently-. Currently, the way it works is that the player can simply decide the skill level of their pc and then go with that. In real life, it doesn't work that way, just like anything else, you have to work at an instrument in order to learn to play it well. You don't just get to decide that, "You know, I think I'm going to master the guitar today and *POOF* you're a master of the guitar." The way the game is currently designed in regards to it.
You would instead have to rp out learning to play the instrument of choice and actually spend time in game practicing it in order to be able to have the coded skil to play it at a certain level.

... I really feel like you're misquoting me on purpose to try and come up with some strawman arguement to rebuke. If you had included the rest of my post instead of just one sentence out of context, your repy would not have even made sense.

See this part ...

Here is how the music skill would be if it worked the same as "any other skill" works (and I already said this before, above ... though I'm starting to think folks aren't actually reading the posts others make).

> play guitar

(code checks your skill and tests it)

Possible outcomes:

> You don't know how to play the guitar.
> You try to play a tune, but your strings break!
> You try to play a tune, but it comes out horrible.
> You play the tune perfectly.

I'm sorry, but I'm at a loss for how anyone could think that kind of implementation would enrich the game in any way whatsoever. When was the last time you went to a concert and the professional musician playing failed his music check and botched the entire tune he was playing as a direct result?

This arguement is the same one we have with crafting ... when is the last time you've seen a person mess up one link in a suit of chainmail and thus have the entire vest turn to dust and scatter to the winds?

You haven't, because the real world doesn't work like that and the crafting system is one of those areas where everyone knows the code fails to do justice to the idea its trying to represent.

"Wanting to know if a PC is a skilled musician" is a decent want, but the code in its current form won't do a good job of expressing that at all; and for all the work it would take to have a code flexible enough to do justice to something like music (or crafting) ... the staff's energy is probably better spent elsewhere; since we're getting on fine without the code for music as it stands now.

To me it seems like you left that bit out so that you could pretend like my statement was actually describing the way music is handled currently. Does that (now in full context) seem like the way music is handled currently? Do you think anyone would like to see music handled like that? Because that is the way the skill code currently functions.

Ok so that wasn't the last bit ... found one more thing.

Actually I don't see anywhere in the documentation where it states that -all- bards of the circle are required to be proficient with an instrument. Especially when reading through it that different groups specialize in different areas, some of which have nothing to do with instrumental performance. If you can show me documentation saying otherwise, I'd appreciate it.

I take it you have never played a bard? I say this because if you had, and had access to the bardic circle clan documents ... you would not have made that statement to begin with. I would normally be more than happy to show you where it states that bards are required to know how to play, craft, and maintain instruments for clan advancement and how many correspond to each level of promotion, but I'm hesitant to post clan doc information that's behind a password protected webpage.

In an off topic thought ... I keep staring at my 2 sids avatar. It's got hypnotic properties.

[My 2 sids]

The fact that bardship is OOC code for "spy/whore/assassin/etc" in game -- instead of being an actual line of work -- is a different thread all together. 
So, I don't care that the NPC sucks as "kill" or "listen" or whatever.

The idea that some players masterful emoters and some are not isn't a big deal (we're all role-playing after all, so individual styles aren't a big deal).  UNTIL it is said, "you players need code for a crutch when I don't"     I mean, how is that not offensive?   This is a _coded_ game:  some folks add TONS to the code, some add a bit...  none but a handful of twinks power-code to the point of abusing code or using it as a crutch or not emoting to the point of their characters becoming stagnate.

Again, we're talking about instrument play.  Outside of "awkward"  I think the true advantage to code would be to explain the mood of the music.  A novice or starting out musician may be able to play a song at a fast or slow pace, but a master can play a "hunting" or "sorrowful" or "angry" piece

[musashi]

Again, we're talking about instrument play.  Outside of "awkward"  I think the true advantage to code would be to explain the mood of the music.  A novice or starting out musician may be able to play a song at a fast or slow pace, but a master can play a "hunting" or "sorrowful" or "angry" piece

I would not be against a coded music skill that was robust enough to do what you're suggesting. But, the way that the code handles skills currently wouldn't allow for music to be coded in such a fashion, for reasons I already explained above.

For the amount of effort it would take to code up a music code that did justice to music, I just feel like staff's energy would be better spent elsewhere, because as things currently stand, I don't think anyone is really suffering from having to emote their musical aptitude, and I don't think anyone else is actually being cheated or wronged by another PC emoting out their own musical aptitude.

And I really don't think that musically inclined PC's are out there tossing out "twinky power emotes" like:

Code Select Expand

emo strikes a chord on the fiddle and everyone in the room begins to cry with tears of joy he's such a wonderful musician.

I've never seen that, not even once. I've never seen anything close to that. I don't think protecting the mud from something like that is an actual reason for anything because I don't believe that happens. If it did happen, I would treat it the same as if someone had done this:

Code Select Expand

emo lifts a finger and the entire tavern rockets off into space.

I would file a complaint for power emoting. Ok well actually I would assume it was a newbie who was clueless about what kind of game Armageddon was, and I would go OOC and try to explain it to them, preferably somewhere secluded. Failing that ... I'd file a complaint.