Instrument/Music Code

[MarshallDFX]

Well, the title makes it pretty obvious.  I think it's also probably been discussed before.  But I'm in favour of this kind of code, provided it's tastefully done.  I believe Dragonrealms had an instrument code when I played.  I think it was alright.

Here's my observation.  For some reason, people more readily roleplay (and enjoy roleplaying) when they're simultaneously improving their coded skills.

I am yet a newb, so people please correct me on this, but I have never seen a person roleplaying being shitty and practising something, without something coded going on underneath.  That said, I've never played a bard in Tuluk.

I'd imagine the music code having such things as being able to choose the mood of the music.  Say, a dozen different options for echos that change/improve over time.  Perhaps even music could -affect- people, sending a listener specific echo their way, just for fun.

If somebody else is actively playing music in that room, you could play flute with amos, and this would change the room echos/listener echos yet again.  All depending on which instrument they're playing along with.

A lot of coding and writing echos, but personally, I'd love to see it.

Code Select Expand

>play guitar
>You can play guitar in the following styles:  cheerful, powerful, tricky, quirky, trying-to-impress-someone, plinking, mellow, angry, somber, depressed, funeral-ific.
>play guitar somber
>You attempt to play a somber tune, but you're so bad at it that you just sound like a wannabe emo squeezing a cat.
>Amos begins playing with you.
>A pitiful wail from a flute cuts through the air, hurting your ears.  It joins in chorus with your cat squeezing, creating a cacophony of unpleasant sounds.

Benefits:
Roleplaying practice enhanced
Gives another actual coded skill to bards
Prevents instant-master-musicians
Music-teacher profession
Encourages people to include instruments/music more often in roleplay.

Costs:
Some lost flexibility.  Emotes would have to fit better with the coded echos.
Yet another skill grind.  (which I think is a benefit, personally)
Difficulty in implementation
If it was implemented -today-, all those current master bards would have to send in requests for skill bumps.

Thoughts?

edit to add:  This is a lot more complicated to code than I'm letting on, and I appreciate that.  Variables to the room echo:  Number of people playing, which instruments they're playing, each persons individual skill at the instrument etc.

[Qzzrbl]

I would love to see something like this IG, though only, as you said, were it done tastefully.

[jstorrie]

I don't think that this is something that really needs to be adjudicated by the code.

[jcljules]

In my opinion this would be a whole lot of work for something that, at the end of the day, would only stifle creativity. And what would the purpose be? Just to make a bard's role based on code? I realize the reason for it; to cut back on PCs who just decide one day Hey look, I can play twelve instruments beautifully, but honestly I think its a huge price to pay for a relatively minor problem.

Also, I just want to add that there is a mechanism, at least in Tuluk, for preventing insta-master-musicians. Its called the Circle. I'm not sure exactly how it works, but I think it takes some time for you to be recognized as a master of an instrument. So people can RP being awesome all they want, but they have to wait before they're socially considered awesome.

[MarshallDFX]

I also confess that I garner some pleasure out of increasing my coded skills.
*shrug*

[Rairen]

You know how much you hate rolling a 33 year old who can't Way more than one person for two attempts at a time before they pass out?

As a group, we struggle with the balance between realism vs. coded benefits.  It's not possible to roll a master hunter at the start (without a special application), but you could hypothetically choose to RP a Circle Apprentice prodigy.  At the same time, you can app this awesome, elite politician noble, but you have to deal with all of the face-losing shame of not having basic skills learned.

Given that I dislike skill grinding and I find good characters being limited by social-focused skills as jarring (or more) than bad people RPing being better than they should be, I'd prefer this system not be implemented.  (Not that I don't think there's room for bards who mess up, but that's something that's better policed by continuing to have high standards for our peers with the RP they choose that provides the most entertainment value for everyone.  And rewarding them for it.)

[musashi]

I voted no.

I have in fact, RP'ed a character as not being skilled in playing an instrument, and paid other PC's to give said character lessons, to stir up RP. I really don't think anyone ever comes into the game deciding that their character can play every instrument as though they were a master musician (unless they have perhaps previously cleared such a concept with staff, like having a child wonder or something). Most folks who play bards pick 1 instrument that they decide their bard is skilled enough with to give performances on, and then they RP out learning the rest of them during their time in the circle.

But the main reason that I voted no, is because for me, being a successful bard honestly has nothing at all to do with how beautifully one emotes their PC's playing is. Being a popular bard, and having people like or dislike your PC's performances is really more dependant on how social and charismatic your bard is, both on and off the stage. Makng your bard interesting and entertaining to other PC's so that they want to RP with you, and want to RP being impressed by your bard's music is really the bread and butter of the role, and I would feel a bit cheapened if someone replaced all that with an echo that told me: You like this guy's music, but that girl over there needs to grind her flute skill up a bit more before you'll like her.

[Gimfalisette]

No. Not necessary. And the role of bard has so much potential in it--if you really think that coded effects are missing, then you've missed the majority of what's involved in barding.

[MarshallDFX]

No. Not necessary. And the role of bard has so much potential in it--if you really think that coded effects are missing, then you've missed the majority of what's involved in barding.

I confessed right away to never playing a bard.
I'd also like to add that this isn't just about bards.  This is for every guild and subguild.  Your warrior or ranger can grind up music skills too, and perhaps play along with the bard later.

[Gimfalisette]

As I already said, it is a Do Not Want. All of my musicians have "ground up music skills" via RP. We don't need to ruin an area of the game by requiring yet more grinding.

[MarshallDFX]

I guess I'm just a sucker for code.

[Xagon]

Perhaps this could go both ways?

You could have a Play command that is functionally similiar to emoting:

> play mandolin (strumming out a chaotic tune)
The quirky bard plays the baobob mandolin, strumming out a chaotic tune.

Or maybe

> play guitar (@ sits quietly on her stool, plucking out a steady rhythm on ~guitar)
The musical bard sits quietly on her stool, plucking out a steady rhythm on an agafari guitar


>stop play
You stop playing your instrument.


That command would have no coded effect unless someone was to assess you while you were playing. Something could be done about singing as well with little change to the code.

> assess bard
You are...
You are...
You find the quality of their musical talent to be: (Poor, Fair, Average, Good, Very Good, Outstanding, Exceptional)
You are not able to discern the quality of their musical talent.


This way, it would be possible to simply RP playing poorly or very well, but also give the person, as well as the player's listeners something to judge it by. I don't have much idea about how listeners would be able to determine bad quality from good, but obviously, a musician could get better with practice.

[musashi]

Ehhh ... I'm still a bit reluctant, mostly because music is something that's entirely subjective in terms of how much a listener will "appreciate" it. A country music artist could be an awesome singer with meaningful lyrics and an amazing ability with the guitar ... but you like rap, so he sucks.

Vice versa as well.

I really think it's one of those "skills" best left up to RP. I mean ... would you want actors in a play to be forced to grind up their "performance" skill so that the other characters could assess them to make sure that they're acting well?

[Xagon]

After giving it a night's thought, I still believe there should be some coded aspect to it.

For the same reason that a master pickpocket does not practice his trade without err, a master performer is not perfect either.

I've seen precious few RP sessions where a performer of any quality flubbed, and then usually they were minor, hardly-damaging, and easily correctable.

Ehhh ... I'm still a bit reluctant, mostly because music is something that's entirely subjective in terms of how much a listener will "appreciate" it. A country music artist could be an awesome singer with meaningful lyrics and an amazing ability with the guitar ... but you like rap, so he sucks.

That's why I tried to only imply the quality, and not the perceived quality. There is little doubt that composers such as Tchaikovsky and Motzart have a quality of music vastly superior than that of average Joe on the street corner, regardless of how much you actually like classical music.

In the end, I'm suggesting that it should be put in code, but I'm not necessarily sure just how.

[jcljules]

No. No. No. Its a short step from something like this to implementing a beauty stat, or a socialization skill. What's next, are people going to complain that people always emote mudsex really well? Maybe we need a mudsex skill!

As I already said, it is a Do Not Want. All of my musicians have "ground up music skills" via RP. We don't need to ruin an area of the game by requiring yet more grinding.

[Gimfalisette]

I've seen precious few RP sessions where a performer of any quality flubbed, and then usually they were minor, hardly-damaging, and easily correctable.

Oh please. We have talked about this endlessly, previously. In Real Life, how often have you seen a professional performer fuck up badly, in proportion to the times you have not seen them fuck up? Same thing for bards in Zalanthas. No one goes to the Sanc to perform before they've polished their skills and piece elsewhere.

After giving it many nights' thought, I still believe there should not be any coded aspect to it.

And hey, if you want to see this done some other way, then feel free to roll yourself a bard and RP the worst-ever Zalanthan performer. In fact, I dare you to attempt playing any kind of bard at all. After you've made a faithful attempt, then (and only then) you get to come back to the GDB and whine about bards.

[musashi]

Right. As has been said ... going down that road can quickly turn silly. With skills for cutting hair, tieing knots, building campfires, whistling, and folding blankets. I can't see a music skill adding anything to the game beyond hassle and stifling creativity.

As for the remark about never seeing folks mess up during a performance; while I agree that I rarely see it either beyond a small mistake that's easy to glaze over ... I note that, that's how RL works as well. You don't start giving public performances with an instrument until you're comfortable playing in front of people and know that particular piece well. Most mistakes professional musicians make, the listeners don't really notice because without being a musician yourself, you're just not likely to knit pick it that much.

This also ties into a misconception I think a lot of players have about bards. People seem to think that rank in the bardic circle = how well you play an instrument. So, you should emote sucking as an apprentice ... be sort of kind of alright as a seeker ... and finally you can emote playing it well as a master.

But that's just wrong from top to bottom. I've had characters turned away from the bardic circle when they auditioned because they didn't already know how to play an instrument well enough to perform with it. Being competant in music enough to perform is the basic requirement of being a bard. The ranks are entirely political and have almost nothing to do with how well a bard may or may not play a given instrument.

Given that knowledge, how much would it suck to have to spam train some arbitrary music skill to mastery just so you can join a clan as an apprentice? Or ... perhaps everyone with the bardic subguild gets their music skill bumped up to mastery level from the start ... ok but .. then what's the point of having the skill at all? We're right back where we started.

Also, FYI, if you go to the poet's circle and hang out there for a bit you'll catch bard PC's RP'ing sucking at an instrument way more often. Because that's where they go to practice the instruments they aren't comfortable playing for crowds yet.

[Gimfalisette]

Follow-on to musashi's note about skill required simply to gain Apprentice rank in Poets' Circle: The mastery of a single instrument is required for that rank. PCs who have gained the Apprentice rank have typically spent many years already practicing instruments and other bard craft. If they were born into the Circle, probably 10 or more; if they auditioned into the Circle, then at least a few. They are not newbies to their craft.

If your PC is hanging out with a Poets' Circle PC, feel free to "look" at that PC's instrument and note the charms hanging from it. If there is a charm representing an instrument there, that means the PC has mastered that instrument. See http://www.armageddon.org/general/music/charms.html and http://www.armageddon.org/general/music/bards.html for more details.

[Rairen]

In defense of the OP, since this thread seems to have stirred up so many latent emotions, I don't think he was slamming bards necessarily for lack of realism.  It almost sounds like he'd consider doing one if there were a coded aspect, as an acknowledged lover of cranking out coded skills.

That said, looks like the preferences of other players go the other way. 

[MarshallDFX]

I've never even seen a PC bard.

edit:  not true.  For about 2 minutes I did.  (they got ran out of the tavern)

[Zoan]

(they got ran out of the tavern)

I love Allanak.

[LoD]

The major issue with attempting to apply code to a PC's ability to play an instrument or sing a song is that, even amidst talented performers, reactions to their work varies because of the subjective nature of the one judging their performance.

No one has a choice to judge a theft any other way than, "That dude just stole my dagger!".  The exchange is laden with irrefutable evidence that the dagger is missing, and someone else now has it.  Almost every skill in Armageddon is coded this way, resulting in an "all or nothing" result.  You either land the kick or you don't.  You either cast the spell or you don't.  You either haggle the price down or you don't.

A player's reaction to a performance can be completely subjective, however, regardless of the character's actual "skill" with a musical instrument or voice.  People have emotional reactions to music, they have tastes for music, they enjoy particular melodies, have soft spots for particular songs, and can appreciate or disapprove of any number of things related to a performance.  And you have both the presentation and the execution to consider -- performances aren't just about landing the right notes, but applying the right amount of emotion and style behind a piece, which can become a signature part of their work(s).

Bards and other performers are really the only characters where part of their success or failure is still based on the actual talent of the player.  Their talent to properly convey the mood of the music through text, to couple emotes with words to represent the correct styling of their song, the inventiveness or creativity to create original works that are genuinely likable or catchy, and their ability to gauge an audience for the appropriate type of song or performance.

These are things that will never be adequately represented by code, and why the use of musical instruments, singing of songs, and acting of scenes should remain one of the areas of the game that is left completely up to the players.  It remains their choice to control the level of skill behind their character, and it remains your choice to apply your arbitrary likes and dislikes to their works.

It's really a win-win for both the performers and the audience.

-LoD

[My 2 sids]

I voted YES

For me, it's much like combat --  a few players might abuse the code and not role-play much/ the majority players will simply use the code as a base and role-play way above what any code could attempt to portray.

Some have brought out the argument of creativity...  I believe the creativity will come out because more players might be drawn into trying to play a bard.   Not all players have the time nor energy to OOC write up 10 minute presentations for their PC,  not all players are masterful emoters...  but, 99% of the player base CAN use a coded skill as a springboard to make their characters come alive.  And that's important if we want bards who are just that... bards (not thieves or prostitutes or spies simply using the term bard as a cover)

Even if simply used for characters who play instruments -- it gives an option for a character where there wasn't one before.  And that would add to the game.

[MarshallDFX]

Some have brought out the argument of creativity...  I believe the creativity will come out because more players might be drawn into trying to play a bard.   Not all players have the time nor energy to OOC write up 10 minute presentations for their PC,  not all players are masterful emoters...  but, 99% of the player base CAN use a coded skill as a springboard to make their characters come alive.  And that's important if we want bards who are just that... bards (not thieves or prostitutes or spies simply using the term bard as a cover)

Even if simply used for characters who play instruments -- it gives an option for a character where there wasn't one before.  And that would add to the game.

Ah.  Yes, thank you for putting this better than I could.  I definately would more readily roleplay music, or play a bard, would there be a coded base to it.

Yes, I need a crutch to prop up my shitty RP and creative talents.

[Jdr]

I want it, but on the condition that it's like Guitar Hero; whenever you smeg up it goes PLINK PLONK BLINK TINK TONK until you get it right. That would be hilarious.