Instrument/Music Code

[My 2 sids]

Yes, I need a crutch to prop up my shitty RP and creative talents.

It's not even about needing a crutch.  It's about the difference between a MUD and a MUSH.

[LoD]

It's not even about needing a crutch.  It's about the difference between a MUD and a MUSH.

I've always appreciated the blend of MUD and MUSH as being one of Armageddon's primary strengths.

What I -could- see being implemented for the people who are somewhat intimidated by handling the performance aspect of a bard character would be the learning of coded "songs" or "poems", so that they could choose to play one of them and it would handle a specific set of emotes/echoes/sing messages.

Bard characters wouldn't be forced to learn these, but it could be interesting if certain songs could only be learned from certain NPC's around the game world.  Knowing a particular song or poem could then become meaningful if your character could perform it, and master bards (like master merchants) might even be able to add their own songs to those other bards could learn over time.

I think a system like that might solve the problem of the newbie bard without forcing code upon a group that feels such code would lessen the fun they would have with the role.

-LoD

[musashi]

Yes, I need a crutch to prop up my shitty RP and creative talents.

It's not even about needing a crutch.  It's about the difference between a MUD and a MUSH.

I think that the people in support of this would feel very very let down when they finally grind their music skill up to mastery ... play at a tavern ... and have the majority of the PC's there give them an impassive shrug of the shoulder, if not attest flatly that they don't like it anyway, reguardless of what the code said happened.

I don't think it has anything to do with the difference between a MUD and a MUSH personally. LoD hit the nail on the head when he talked about how coded skills have all or nothing effects. You either did something or failed to do it and the result is not up for subjective opinion. Music is not like that. Acting is not like that. I just don't think that those types of skills (the ones whose result is heavily influenced by the subjective perception of the people watching) need to be coded.

Though if you know of any other MUD's that have coded that out and had it not completely suck, by all means, bring them up as an example of how we might use a system somewhat like it here.

[MarshallDFX]

I like LoD's idea too.

My only question/point would be:  Are the performances of these coded songs/poems going to all be at one "level of skill"?  Or are they going to be generic enough that one could emote one's own performance of the song in between echos?

[Kankfly]

I voted no.

Because I'd rather see a PC bard's creative emotes than canned echoes. No matter how many coded styles you have, there's still a limitation to how you play a piece of music (if it's coded). I think being a bard is pretty RP intensive, and having it as a coded skill will strip it off its benefits.

Of course, you can say that you'll drop emotes in between play, but then, what's the point of having a coded skill for bards in the first place if you're going to drop emotes anyway?

Although, the only benefit I can think of if you really do a coded skill for bards is the reaction of a VNPC crowd. So you'll have echoes of what the VNPC crowd think of your music as you twink up your code, though that will definitely put more work load on the staff, since each region/tribe/etc has different tastes on music.

[deviant storm]

Of course, you can say that you'll drop emotes in between play, but then, what's the point of having a coded skill for bards in the first place if you're going to drop emotes anyway?

I have to blink at this.

People add emotes to combat, to magic, to foraging, to any of our coded aspects to the game. I don't see why there can't be an intermingling of code/rp. It's what we do here. We roleplay our characters, as you know.  Why should bards be any different?

Frankly I don't mind if they code this, or not. I've played maybe two bard type characters during my whole existance on Arm. One was a half-giant who moonlighted as a bard and who was a Winrothol guard. The other? A failure. I mean, not icly, but because I suck at rping a bard. This is where my creativity seems to end. I can't do the music part of rping those characters.

That said, I wouldn't mind a way to codedly help people like me, who aren't gifted in portraying music well. Though if it doesn't get done, I'll simply not play bards. Which is kind of sad, I wouldn't mind trying once more, someday.

[Potaje]

Its simple, as a bard to have music coded means the echo becomes standard. I would not want to be leashed to a code that dictates my sound. I would be writting in to staff every week asking for a new echo. In my humble opinion, the suggestion of code would stifle uniquiness.

[LoD]

Its simple, as a bard to have music coded means the echo becomes standard. I would not want to be leashed to a code that dictates my sound. I would be writting in to staff every week asking for a new echo. In my humble opinion, the suggestion of code would stifle uniquiness.

I'm wondering if people are confusing the two ideas.

My suggestion was not for bardic code to be mandatory, but to be provided as an option.  Players who are uncomfortable or simply bad at expressing music or lyrics via emotes or tells, or perhaps need some practice, could utilize these coded scripts of songs to help them overcome those barriers and, perhaps, even learn to do it themselves without needing to appear incompetent.

Players who are comfortable or familiar playing bards wouldn't need to every make use of the coded script and could, instead, continue to perform completely free of any code or script -- just like they do today.  Nothing would force them to use these "coded" songs or poems; they would exist solely for people who would like to utilize a scripted performance to compensate for:

> Being unfamiliar with more sophisticated uses of the emote code.
> Being uncomfortable or unfamiliar with common emotes for instruments they may have never played or seen before.
> Being a slow typer by nature or handicap.
> Being intimidated by the creativity they feel needs to be associated with a bardic performance.

The point is that a solution like this could help the character appear more comfortable and capable giving performances even if the player is not.  My vision has it being a completely voluntary choice on the part of the player, and would neither restrict nor limit the performances of bard PC's who wish to remain completely original or clear of such coded scripts.

-LoD

[Gimfalisette]

The problem with scripting or coding any kind of bardic performance at all is that the individual player is only going to want to see that performance once, ever. It's only new once. This is why scripted bards at the old Barrel and at the Sanc don't get a lot of play: they are repetitive, even with long playlists; and they are not interactive; and they are basically jukeboxes who (by nature of this being a text environment) are overly intrusive on RP. A good bard is not repetitive, is engaged in active interaction with the current audience, and is responding to what's currently happening in the environment.

We don't have scripted combat emotes either. I don't see how scripted combat emotes would add to the game, and I don't see how scripting bardic performances would add to the game.

It's possible to learn to play a decent bard, just like it's possible to learn to play decently any other role; but a player's got to actually put the time in. It's not all about talent and creativity of the individual player. But the time has to be done.

I invite anyone who wants to learn to adequately play a bard to start a thread in order to discuss that topic, or to PM me privately; I'm more than happy to help.

[LoD]

We don't have scripted combat emotes either. I don't see how scripted combat emotes would add to the game, and I don't see how scripting bardic performances would add to the game.

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison, since the outcome of a combat encounter will be much more random and varied than the outcome of a song someone has developed.  However, if we want to get technical, combat really is a series of emotes handled by the game to convey the progress of an event, albeit in a random order based on the results of behind-the-scenes mathematical results.  They're certainly more varied than a bardic script would be, but not by much.  We've just never had to use a system where we were asked to emote every line of action ourselves and, instead, have been content to rely upon the code to handle it for us.

It's possible to learn to play a decent bard, just like it's possible to learn to play decently any other role; but a player's got to actually put the time in. It's not all about talent and creativity of the individual player. But the time has to be done.

Just like anyone can learn to be a casual player, but the player has got to actually be willing to alter their play style or get used to things with which might make them uncomfortable or frustrated?  I don't see why this is any different from wanting supplementary code to help you have fun handling casual roles that you feel currently aren't possible because the "way you want to play" isn't supported by the current game.

Concerning "solutions" for problems, you mentioned in another thread:

"Solutions" that rely primarily on the personal experience and expertise of the player are not solutions to this problem at all.

I argue that your sentiment expressed here should apply equally to people who don't have the personal expertise or experience to play a bard, and that coded support for those players who cannot or will not attempt a bardic role without it would only serve to help the game by providing those players an avenue through which to play -- in exactly the same way that coded support for casual players who cannot or will not attempt a role without them could be helpful for the game.

I would further argue that there are factors involved with handling IC performances that could be better bridged by supplementary code than by personal consultation and coaching.  Having a scripted song doesn't mean they can't personalize it with their own emotes in between the spoken or sung words, using the script as a tool to practice on something standard before moving to something they want to make 100% their own.

The NPC bards are sometimes considered a nuisance because they won't stop singing if a templar suddenly tells them to, or a fight breaks out, or the crowd gets up and leaves.  They won't flavor the performance with random or specialized emotes because they are following a script 100%, but I don't think that these scripted songs need to be that restrictive or limited.  They can be a very useful bridge for players that would like to take on a performance-based role without necessarily needing to have to handle every element right away -- the same way that combat handles "enough" of a scene to get you through without being forced to construct a series of emotes or flavor it with your own style.

The downsides for these coded "scripts" lay almost entirely on the shoulders of the bards using them, and I would likely tailor the song selection so that the bulk of the available scripted songs were chosen for a combination of general appeal and brevity.

-LoD

[Gimfalisette]

Casual players are asking for supplementary code so that they can play alone more effectively, since there are so many time and code barriers to playing with others for a few minutes here and there across a span of days. But bardic performances are not done alone, they are done in social circumstances; and scripted bardic performances will largely be perceived as a burden to other players. Getting players to pay attention to, and have any respect for, bards and performers is already difficult enough. Adding a layer of anyone-can-do-it-and-annoy-you-in-the-process will not help matters in the least.

Comparing players of bards to casual players is an inept analogy. And comparing bardic performances to the incredibly boring, scripted combat code is even more inept. Combat code is one of the worst parts of this game, when it comes to the interest of the scripting. (It handles the outcome of combat just fine, but the repetitiveness is mind-numbing.) The scripted emotes of the crafting system are bad enough; combat code is worse.

And, if players want a repertoire of songs, jokes, stories, and poems to which they can add their own un-scripted emotes--that already exists, on armageddon.org and in these forums. Why does it need to be actually scripted into the game, when other players have already contributed so much that is ready to be mined?

Scripted emotes weren't the original poster's request anyways.

[LoD]

Casual players are asking for supplementary code so that they can play alone more effectively, since there are so many time and code barriers to playing with others for a few minutes here and there across a span of days.

I was drawing an analogy between the request of casual players for supplementary code to assist them in achieving a role they felt was "doable" or "fun" to the potential of bardic scripted code assisting players in achieving a role they felt is "doable" or "fun".  Both requests are for supplementary code that would allow some niche group to be more doable or have more fun -- by their very personal and individual definitions.

A personal dislike for scripts is certainly not a good enough reason to claim that it would add nothing to the game.  That's just simply untrue.  If players felt more comfortable or able to portray a bardic character via this supplementary code, and it provided them with enough stability to graduate to a point where they no longer needed to use it, then it could be a very helpful addition indeed.

And using the repertoire of songs, jokes, stories, and poems available on the web site still doesn't address the issues for slow typers, or people that can't easily discern what a good song might be for a particular region, or how to best phrase them with the various coded verbal commands -- when a script would handle much of those features for them initially, and make it easier to see (by example) how they might want to phrase/deliver their own performances.

Scripted emotes weren't the original poster's request anyways.

What's the point of saying this?  The idea is a variant aimed at meeting some of the implied needs of the OP (and other subsequent posters).  Are you saying it doesn't belong here?  Or that it's not valid simply because the OP didn't request this specific solution, even though he later mentions that he likes it?

-LoD

[Gimfalisette]

Scripted emotes weren't the original poster's request anyways.

What's the point of saying this?  The idea is a variant aimed at meeting some of the implied needs of the OP (and other subsequent posters).  Are you saying it doesn't belong here?  Or that it's not valid simply because the OP didn't request this specific solution, even though he later mentions that he likes it?

It seems to me like the original poster was requesting coded skill advancement for bard-type activities because he enjoys coded skill advancement. And he believes that players would be more likely to roll bard-type PCs if there was coded skill advancement involved; him included. That was my whole point: that scripting performances doesn't address the heart of what he was asking for, which was a somewhat self-focused achiever-type desire for an incentive to play bards.

I think the majority of the GDB knows that I love bard characters, I have played a bunch of performer types (both in Poets' Circle and elsewhere), and I would love to see more bardish PCs because of what they add to the game environment and their potential to contribute to other players' fun and immersion. I have personally helped a lot of people (via PMs and IM) get acquainted with bards in general and Tuluki bards specifically, for the purpose of helping them to get into those roles and thus contribute. I'm certainly not an elitist, wanting to "save" these roles for those who "deserve" them by dint of their own possession of extreme creativity and patience.

However, that doesn't mean I want to see barding become a canned experience, either. There are some areas of the game that should be coded, and some that shouldn't. Portions of the bardic role which are amenable to coding, are already coded. And other portions of the bardic role which could necessarily appeal to the achiever gamer type, are already set up to appeal to that type.

I'm not going to get into a ton of specifics, because IMO some of it is IC information only privy to those who are playing bards of Poets' Circle, but people who want to play "achieving" bards have plenty to play with, right now:

-- Musical instruments can be codedly crafted. Proficiency in such crafting is required for bardic advancement (Arc of Music).
-- Proficiency in coded combat is required for bardic advancement (Arc of Blades).
-- Proficiency in coded languages is required for bardic advancement (Arc of Words).
-- Knowledge and/or coded proficiency in some other area is required for bardic advancement (Arc of Lore).
-- Charms can be collected and are part of bardic advancement.

See http://www.armageddon.org/general/music/bards.html for all the above.

And in order to make the role enjoyable and playable from another coded standpoint, we have the special "sing" and "recite" commands. Performances can (and should) be scripted ahead of time by the player, for quick and easy use in the game itself. Knowledge of what is appropriate for a region should, can, and does come from other players of bards, and/or from the imms, and/or from just doing something in game and seeing what happens. (Oh, the stories I could tell about the numerous times I fucked up as a bard--but survived, and had fun, and usually recovered.)

So again, scripted or coded whatever of the kinds described previously is a do not want, for me. Nor do I believe anything mentioned in this thread is necessary, for anyone. We already have what we need, if players would just be bold and take the risk and avail themselves of the resources.

[MarshallDFX]

I also mentioned that these things are not just about being a bard.  It's about anyone who wants to somehow include music or an instrument in their roleplay, if even only minorly.

Why do I like code so?  It gives value to things.  When you're the ultimate sword-swinger of doom, everybody knows that it obviously took time and dedication and probablyl of a lot of roleplay to get there.  That much can be appreciated.

This is by no means saying it doesn't take time and dedication and a whole lot of roleplay to be a good bard, because I suspect that it does.
But it's really hard for me to even explain.. I just plain don't derive the same kind of pleasure out of it.  It feels more like homework, and less like a game.  Even though others might see it completely the opposite.  That said, my roleplaying is kind of mediocre.

I'll repeat my earlier question to LoD too, about semi-scripted learned performances:

Are the performances of these coded songs/poems going to all be at one "level of skill"?  Or are they going to be generic enough that one could emote one's own performance of the song in between echos?

[LoD]

I'll repeat my earlier question to LoD too, about semi-scripted learned performances:

Are the performances of these coded songs/poems going to all be at one "level of skill"?  Or are they going to be generic enough that one could emote one's own performance of the song in between echos?

I would answer "yes" to both.  Players would be able to learn these scripted songs/poems over some length of time, and the songs would be generic enough so that players could emote their own style or add their own flavor to each performance. 

The group I see benefiting the most from this idea are those players who feel intimidated or uncomfortable with performance RP in Armageddon.  They would probably be more likely to try a performance-based role if they knew there was some code to help their character appear competent even if the player was not and was still trying to learn the "ropes".

I do not think that playing a bard should require, or benefits from, any kind of relative instrument/voice skill that needs to be improved through hard-coded "practice".  However, I could see these scripts providing some support for an inexperienced player who wants to try their hand at a bard, but is nervous about their ability and how they'll be perceived.

I see comments all the time that hint at people's insecurities about their RP, and I think anything that can help bring people closer to the roles they'd like to play without trivializing or forcing something upon the rest of the player base can be a good thing -- especially with something that is almost completely RP-based such as performing songs and poems.

-LoD

[musashi]

I also mentioned that these things are not just about being a bard.  It's about anyone who wants to somehow include music or an instrument in their roleplay, if even only minorly.

Why do I like code so?  It gives value to things.  When you're the ultimate sword-swinger of doom, everybody knows that it obviously took time and dedication and probablyl of a lot of roleplay to get there.  That much can be appreciated.

This is by no means saying it doesn't take time and dedication and a whole lot of roleplay to be a good bard, because I suspect that it does.
But it's really hard for me to even explain.. I just plain don't derive the same kind of pleasure out of it.  It feels more like homework, and less like a game.  Even though others might see it completely the opposite.  That said, my roleplaying is kind of mediocre.

I'll repeat my earlier question to LoD too, about semi-scripted learned performances:

Are the performances of these coded songs/poems going to all be at one "level of skill"?  Or are they going to be generic enough that one could emote one's own performance of the song in between echos?

I just wanted to say that while this is my own personal opinion, I found that it's entirely possible, if not more so, for a high ranking bard to be seen as codedly vaulable. One of the really cool things for me from a coded value standpoint is that ... obviously the Master Bards must be highly skill in whatever their guild is ... but what is their guild? A sword swinger of doom who is legendary for it is probably a warrior ... a famous water mage from Allanak (or infamous more lkely) is quite obviously a water elementalist. And so on and so forth. But bards are in a position to be somewhat more immune to guild sniffing and the wondering, oh the wondering of what coded abilities they might possess, made them valued and appreciated even more so than a dread sword slnger or  killer for hire would have been.

[elvenchipmunk]

Assassin. 

[jhunter]

I picture it more like your coded skill at the instrument determines what sort of generic echo you get but still leaves room for you to emote more specifically how they are doing it and to rp singing along with it, etc.
Your character might be kinda bad at playing their instrument at first, but be a talented showman in other ways and eventually get codedly good with their instrument. (or any others they spent enough time practicing with)
I'd have no problem with it being implemented in this way. Leave enough room to rp but have a coded skill to determine your echo tag for playing said instrument rather than having the player just dictate whether or not their pc was any good with a given instrument.
In fact, this would make me want to play a bard more if I had the time to. To me, there being no coding at all to a bard's performance ability has always turned me off in regards to playing them, or interacting with them.

There are some areas of the game where I think some things are overcoded. This is one of them that I feel is undercoded.

[MarshallDFX]

Again, this isn't just about bards.  It's about instruments and determining your skill with one.

[jhunter]

I understand that. I read it when you said it a couple of posts ago. People will still mention bards because it does affect some of those characters as well. Probably more of them than any other.

[MarshallDFX]

I understand that. I read it when you said it a couple of posts ago. People will still mention bards because it does affect some of those characters as well. Probably more of them than any other.

Apologies.  I should have quoted.  I was saying that more in response to musashi's post earlier up.

[flurry]

I don't like this. To me it seems like it reduces musical proficiency to how many times you can enter a 'play drum' command. The way I look at it, bards are roles where you really get out what you put into it. If you see a bard in game with some semblance of success, you can be sure the player behind the role worked to get there. I don't feel like that's always true in other areas of the game.

It might seem like people have an easy road to mastering an instrument, because after all, they get to emote it however they want to. But wouldn't they still be able to emote freely after the proposed change?

I guess I'm just concerned that this would shift things away from where they are now, where the player really has to breathe life into the performance from scratch, to something where something with so much creative potential depends on skill grinding.

[spawnloser]

I find it amusing that people complained that we're playing a MUD not a MUSH not too long ago... but now people want something uncoded.  Why is one situation different than another?  I think any objection to having musical skills coded in some way should address that issue.

[jcljules]

The tall, muscular man sings, in sirihish,
"o i wish i was tektolnes,
so i had lots of food,
i wish i was tektolnes,
cause i am in the mood."

The tall, muscular man's playing is beautiful and enchanting.
You feel the need to tip the tall, muscular man.
Someone forces you to applaud for the tall, muscular man.
You give many coins to the tall, muscular man.

[musashi]

I find it amusing that people complained that we're playing a MUD not a MUSH not too long ago... but now people want something uncoded.  Why is one situation different than another?  I think any objection to having musical skills coded in some way should address that issue.

We have addressed that issue, several times.

The difference is: The end result of music is not an all or nothing effect. To the best of my knowledge, all of the coded skills in game represent all or nothing type situations. You hit, or you didn't hit. You got it, or you got caght trying to get it. You hide, or you didn't hide, and so on, and so on.

It would be every bit as unrealistic as the current crafting code (which is a whole 'nother ball of wax) to have a music skill tested and either come back with a: You play the song perfectly -or a- you completely mangle the music and treat everyone to 5 minutes of torture, missing every note; type echo.

Likewise, even after you come back with a "You play the song perfectly" type echo ... no one is required to acknowledge that. I can still tell youI hate your music, even if you spam trained it for days on end, because unlike every other skill in the game right now, it's subjective.

As jcjules mentioned I believe, not many people feel having social interaction in the game handled by coded skills would enrich anything. But would in fact do quite the opposite.

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