Casual Game Play

[Zoltan]

This thread really seems to be getting really dichotomized and oppositional, and I have no idea why.

I think part of it is that the change is requested by those people not really "into" the game right now, whereas the people having a great time don't see the need. I think that could be a perceived dichotomy in this thread.

[Old Kank]

Armageddon is and always has been a game that caters to people that can play more, not less.  This is Crackageddon.  The good book that keeps evolving, and is very, very hard to put down once you get wrapped up in it.  I sympathize with the "low playing-time" players, 'cause I find myself there often, but it's pretty unreasonable to suddenly expect the game to change just because you can no longer play it like you used to.

A lot of the proposed suggestions to "fix" the problem, like in-game messaging systems, skill bumps, and auto-clanning would dilute the experience for the rest of the playerbase, so it's not surprising that some people are strongly against such ideas.  The game is based on interactions between players that share an experience, and if you can't be around for that, you won't get as much back.  That's just the nature of the game.  Trying to wedge your way back in through coded tweaks will just frustrate other players, and no experienced-player-brain-drain arguments will justify that.  Plenty of experienced players get jaded and quit after a favorite character dies, but nobody is arguing to change permadeath, are they?

Lastly, I'll say I'd love to see a player guide written on suggestions for casual players, and also for getting casual players involved.

This is the best suggestion I've seen.  Leave the Armageddon experience alone for those people that can play moderately to frequently, and sort out amongst yourselves the best roles, character types and personal moderation needed to fit Armageddon into your busy schedule.

[musashi]

Can you give an example of how an in game message delivery mechinism would dilute the "experience" of Armageddon? Or a board outside of a clan compound for hiring/work purposes?

[Zoltan]

Can you give an example of how an in game message delivery mechinism would dilute the "experience" of Armageddon? Or a board outside of a clan compound for hiring/work purposes?

Because it wouldn't just be a crutch for casual gamers. It would be an easy way out of PC-to-PC communication for even the "hardcore" players. That's not to say that people want to -avoid- PC-to-PC interaction, it's just that it'd be so much -easier-. For example, I almost -always- go to a vendor NPC for equipment/goodies, because it's so much easier than going through PCs. That means my characters tend to have pretty vanilla EQ lists (at first; my characters tend to be the heirs of some cool gear because they live a while, but yeah, not the point  ).

I play a moderate amount of time each week, I suppose. If I could just conveniently send IG messages to everyone I have the slightest, tiniest bit of trouble finding, I'd probably do it. And I think I'd probably lose some of that 'geddony magick because of it.

[Riev]

Anyone who feels that a bump in their skills will suddenly make their "fun" in the game better, seems to me someone who wants an advantage over other people. For quite some time, I was a hardcore player. Now I'm lucky to get 2 hours a day. The only times I've thought of storing or flaming the boards is when I really hated my leadership PCs, and only because I'm a dick and think I will inherit the world.

I -really- feel for the casual players without a lot of time, but only the "messenger" style ideas are ones I would suggest pursuing, and as Zoltan said, I would use them even if the other person IS online. Its much easier.

[MarshallDFX]

Currently, I'd only voice support for a slightly more liberal form of the rumours board, including people who might be looking for work in certain areas.   Of course, we'd need to create and IG career counselling office to facilitate this, because what reasonable IG bartender wants to remember all this junk.  It's just not realistic.

This is only because I'm a social-justice-concerned, ethically considerate, prudent conservative.

[Fathi]

Anyone who feels that a bump in their skills will suddenly make their "fun" in the game better, seems to me someone who wants an advantage over other people.

Riev, this is not a personal attack on you and I'm not trying to phrase it that way, but this is a bit condescending. If anything, people who are asking for this option are wanting to find themselves at a slightly less painful disadvantage.

It has nothing to do with a skilled character being more "fun." It's about wanting to maximise the fun of the time they play.

I think a lot of casual players feel like they have to choose between furthering their skills or hanging out and RPing with other characters. If they had the ability to start a PC with even slightly-higher-than-newbie-level skills, they could hang out in taverns trying to woo that pretty maiden/make contacts for a project of their PC's/get in touch with that Salarri Agent offering work without having to suddenly worry about their PC's ability to make a living a few days later because they're out of newbie coins.

It sucks, but I believe the way Armageddon is currently structured, it definitely encourages the first few days of any character--especially independents--to be a powergaming skillgain-fest so that a PC can sustain themselves when the newb loot runs out.

I'd like to note that I know this isn't true in all circumstances and that it is definitely possible for most guilds--if not easy for some--to survive and make money from very early on. However, I'd like people reading this to keep in mind that not all players know all the tricks you do. Not many newbs know the location of bushes and trees and pools where you can get free food and water. Few semi-vet players or veteran players might know that if you forage a handful of sparkly alabaster triangles near Tuluk, you can sell them for mad loot in Luir's.

I really appreciate the last few 'jobs' the imms have put into the game such as cotton picking and dung sweeping, because it provides at least a minimal safety net for players who choose to spend their newbie time socialising and roleplaying with others rather than solo hunting or trying to beef up their starting skills.

[Aaron Goulet]

I don't care to speak to the other topics mentioned in this thread at this time, but I do think that skills could be more "casual-friendly".  I mean this not only with regards to players that have a limited amount of time to enjoy the game, but also with regards to players who simply spend less time "skilling" and more time, well, role-playing.

DISCLAIMER: The following is based off of several theoretical assumptions, and may be completely incorrect.  Feel free to steer me straight on any of the below points.

Regardless of how the current underpinnings of the skill advancement system actually works, the general perception seems to be that your character is going to suck for a long time, and then eventually advance faster after having become at least mediocre at a skill.  In other words, while it can be hard as hell to learn how to bake your first travel cake, once you have the hang of it, you can (theoretically) be frying up spiced erdlu wings like an Iron Chef within an in-game week.  Graphically represented, I imagine the current skill advancement curve to look something like this:

I think that this is ultimately the result of characters benefiting from a greater skill gain when performing an action successfully rather than by failing.  I'll leave the debate as to whether or not this is realistic to less tired minds, but, ultimately, this results in a slow learning curve for new characters, followed by greater gains as the character becomes more successful at his or her skills.

The end result? New characters seem to face far greater obstacles just to become "productive citizens of society", whilst players with more time to dedicate to "skilling" can become masters of their chosen profession(s) with little effort (relatively speaking).  This seems to penalize casual players, and perhaps even encourages some to adopt skill-oriented mindset, which we typically don't encourage.

I propose something more like this:

This chart is essentially the same as above, only instead, characters are given a greater skill gain when failing at a skill rather than succeeding at it.  As a result, new characters advance more quickly to the "mediocre" skill range, resulting in less overall frustration for the player, while those who have more time to dedicate to their characters still have the advantage of reaching greater heights, albeit with more of a challenge than before.

Effectively, the taper of the learning curve for skills would simply be altered to better suit new characters/casual players, without penalizing our beloved hardcore crowd too much.

[Melody]

I think there may be another solution to this. The game could create new roles that are geared towards social rather than coded skills. These roles can be aimed at enhancing existing plots or rp.

For example, and these are just examples with flaws, I'm sure staffs or others can think up better ones:

- Nenyuk clerks. Each clerk has ONE house they can rent out to pcs or independent organizations. The rents are paid at the bank, the clerk can collect the rent there minus a cut for the house. We all know that pcs die often, so the clerk can keep busy by finding new people to live at the house, clean out house, and so on. Indie people can get something special. Bonus.

- Sath Nobles. The nobles record history. So they might want to keep track on who is who and where is where. Their job is to record, and record they will. Missed all the plots until it is done? No problem, you can record it and read these bed times stories to others later on. PCs will never get forgotten totally and people can get a warm feeling inside whenever they hear their old dead pcs.

- Bartenders that belong to some sekrit research organization. They serve drinks. But that is boring. They also listen on who is hanging with who. They spot relationships and so on and then feed the information in a report to the boss, where the spy master/mistress can do whatever. No one would believe that silky Kadius is in alliance with that rinth rat until you spot them getting drunk together!

- So on. I'm tired with examples.

So the key point here is that the role created would be tailored made for casual players with min. coded skills.

[musashi]

To Goulet: I um ... I thought Armageddon was coded already in such a way that failing a skill is how you gain in it   I could have sworn I read that somewhere, like in a helpfile.

To Zoltan: It seems to me like you just said "It would decrease PC's interacting with one another, for example I go to the NPC vendors because they're easier to buy from than PC vendors. So having a way to more easily contact PC vendors would mean I would interact with PC's even less." It leaves me going  

Wouldn't buying from a PC vendor via the aforementioned message/delivery mechanism be PC interaction, as opposed to interating with an NPC only? It isn't face to face interaction granted, but it's still something that allows a PC to seek out another PC to fill a given need rather than going to an NPC for it. So, wouldn't an ability like that increase the interaction between players, instead of decreasing it?

I don't personally buy into the idea that folks would use that service exclusively and never bother trying to find anyone in person ever again. Imagine if said service cost even 1 small for every message ... what would you rather spend? 100 coins? Or 15 stun trying a contact first?

[brytta.leofa]

By the by, I believe this graph is at least fancifully correct...if you substitute days for hours.

[Thunkkin]

Because it wouldn't just be a crutch for casual gamers. It would be an easy way out of PC-to-PC communication for even the "hardcore" players. That's not to say that people want to -avoid- PC-to-PC interaction, it's just that it'd be so much -easier-. For example, I almost -always- go to a vendor NPC for equipment/goodies, because it's so much easier than going through PCs. That means my characters tend to have pretty vanilla EQ lists (at first; my characters tend to be the heirs of some cool gear because they live a while, but yeah, not the point  ).

So, being able to set up a meeting with a PC merchant would lead to an even more vanilla EQ list?  I'm confused.  Seems like this might be a concern that people would just make entire orders through the boards instead of talking face to face?  There could easily be a rule that PCs have to try to set up a meeting first before resorting to this.  Even then, at least one meeting (to exchange the items) will have to take place.  But most orders require some back and forth question/answers, so I don't really think this would be a problem.  Let's not argue against broad solutions based on small details that can be ironed out if/when said solutions are implemented.  If message boards that facilitate PC meetings and clan recruitment dilute your RP experience, I'm at a loss.

If considering various options for allowing well-respected members of our community like Gimf and Staggerlee, etc., to continue contributing to the game somehow threatens anyone's play experience, I'm equally baffled.  I don't think any of these players are wanting free epics and they certainly don't think they should get a free pass into a l33t, 40-man raid.  The purples are safe.

[AreteX]

I do mind the idea of making life easier for players who cannot play often for messages, perhaps making coin ect.

But I do not think Player A should get better at skills while offline.  Alot of skills require a certain risk: backstab, steal, picklock ect... If you could just skill these up without any danger involved, then I think that is a bad idea.

Otherwise, anything to help functionality and playability sounds great.

[Zoltan]

Wouldn't buying from a PC vendor via the aforementioned message/delivery mechanism be PC interaction, as opposed to interating with an NPC only? It isn't face to face interaction granted, but it's still something that allows a PC to seek out another PC to fill a given need rather than going to an NPC for it. So, wouldn't an ability like that increase the interaction between players, instead of decreasing it?

I don't personally buy into the idea that folks would use that service exclusively and never bother trying to find anyone in person ever again. Imagine if said service cost even 1 small for every message ... what would you rather spend? 100 coins? Or 15 stun trying a contact first?

No, that NPC messaging system would be as much PC interaction as me sending you a PM to log in at such-and-such a time, or that I accomplished such-and-such during last night's play. Sure, things are affected ICly, then, but it's sterile. I suppose it's a solution to the age-old "I can never fucking find this guy" problem. I don't have any solutions to offer up, myself.

I never said that people would use these NPCs exclusively. It's just the moment that it gets a little difficult to find someone, bloop, there you go with the NPC. It also makes me feel weird that I'd have to check up on these NPCs all the time, especially if I was playing a leadership role. It's like, "hum hum, diddity-do, lemme check my mailbox here". No, this is Arm: send my character a letter (assuming they can read) or pass the message through subordinates/acquaintances who all have a chance at screwing it up or fucking me over. This is just a personal opinion, and yes, I know it doesn't really alleviate the problems casual gamers see.

[Zoltan]

Because it wouldn't just be a crutch for casual gamers. It would be an easy way out of PC-to-PC communication for even the "hardcore" players. That's not to say that people want to -avoid- PC-to-PC interaction, it's just that it'd be so much -easier-. For example, I almost -always- go to a vendor NPC for equipment/goodies, because it's so much easier than going through PCs. That means my characters tend to have pretty vanilla EQ lists (at first; my characters tend to be the heirs of some cool gear because they live a while, but yeah, not the point  ).

So, being able to set up a meeting with a PC merchant would lead to an even more vanilla EQ list?  I'm confused.  Seems like this might be a concern that people would just make entire orders through the boards instead of talking face to face?  There could easily be a rule that PCs have to try to set up a meeting first before resorting to this.  Even then, at least one meeting (to exchange the items) will have to take place.  But most orders require some back and forth question/answers, so I don't really think this would be a problem.  Let's not argue against broad solutions based on small details that can be ironed out if/when said solutions are implemented.  If message boards that facilitate PC meetings and clan recruitment dilute your RP experience, I'm at a loss.

If considering various options for allowing well-respected members of our community like Gimf and Staggerlee, etc., to continue contributing to the game somehow threatens anyone's play experience, I'm equally baffled.  I don't think any of these players are wanting free epics and they certainly don't think they should get a free pass into a l33t, 40-man raid.  The purples are safe.

My main concern is with the means proposed for the flow of other information. I guess I'm just having knee-jerk reactions against more OOC constructs and automatic stuff put in. The thing is, as a player having a fantastic (though sometimes frustrated by restricted playtimes) playing experience, I'm finding myself unsympathetic to those that aren't. I don't see big problems where others do. When stuff like these proposals come up, I just can't help but see the negative, because I just don't see a whole lot of room for improvement in these aspects.

[staggerlee]

I think there may be another solution to this. The game could create new roles that are geared towards social rather than coded skills. These roles can be aimed at enhancing existing plots or rp.

For example, and these are just examples with flaws, I'm sure staffs or others can think up better ones:

- Nenyuk clerks. Each clerk has ONE house they can rent out to pcs or independent organizations. The rents are paid at the bank, the clerk can collect the rent there minus a cut for the house. We all know that pcs die often, so the clerk can keep busy by finding new people to live at the house, clean out house, and so on. Indie people can get something special. Bonus.

- Sath Nobles. The nobles record history. So they might want to keep track on who is who and where is where. Their job is to record, and record they will. Missed all the plots until it is done? No problem, you can record it and read these bed times stories to others later on. PCs will never get forgotten totally and people can get a warm feeling inside whenever they hear their old dead pcs.

- Bartenders that belong to some sekrit research organization. They serve drinks. But that is boring. They also listen on who is hanging with who. They spot relationships and so on and then feed the information in a report to the boss, where the spy master/mistress can do whatever. No one would believe that silky Kadius is in alliance with that rinth rat until you spot them getting drunk together!

- So on. I'm tired with examples.

So the key point here is that the role created would be tailored made for casual players with min. coded skills.

I lean toward this sort of solution much more than the rather contentious idea of skill bumps.
*And steeper diminishing returns for all! Muhaha.

[Comrade Canadia]

I like Melody's special roles idea more than skill bumps as well. Skill bumps will just piss off the playerbase. Roles like these also seem easier to implement.

That said, I think that should arm 2 come about, changing the way skills are increased would definitely help casual play and the overall game experience. High skill increases for less time spent with steeper diminishing returns. Get rid of the hours spent powergaming and let people actually roleplay, instead of faking it while skill-spamming. Endless powergamey repetition is best left to games like world of warcraft, which do it much better.

[LoD]

I like Melody's special roles idea more than skill bumps as well. Skill bumps will just piss off the playerbase. Roles like these also seem easier to implement.

I like them better as well.

That said, I think that should arm 2 come about, changing the way skills are increased would definitely help casual play and the overall game experience. High skill increases for less time spent with steeper diminishing returns. Get rid of the hours spent powergaming and let people actually roleplay, instead of faking it while skill-spamming. Endless powergamey repetition is best left to games like world of warcraft, which do it much better.

The notion that the skill grind serves only as a time sink and is somehow an obstacle to RP seems somewhat short-sighted to me.  It's like saying, "Let's skip the rehearsals and go straight for the performance."  There are several ancillary benefits that come along with the process of improving one's skills:

> The process allows players to be seen performing their related jobs, both by obvious and hidden observers alike.  This visibility is often paramount for ingratiating one's character into the flow of the game. 

> A slower development cycle basically ensures that you will have characters at various levels of progression at any given time, simply because time is required to build up these skills and people begin characters at different times.  Increase the speed of the cycle and you run the risk of eliminating much of the middle-ground, which lessens the depth and makes things less interesting. If you don't think that's important, feel free to visit a Harry Potter premiere event 5 minutes before the movie and cut in line.  I imagine it won't sit well with the other people who have spent a considerable amount of time getting to where they are and value their position.

> The process of developing skills also builds a sense of investment in the character, discouraging acts of recklessness or random violence for their own sakes.  People are more likely to value their character and, thus, act more realistically in the face of danger compared to a system where they know it will only take them a few days to get back to where they were.

I realize there is a camp that feel skills are a necessary evil to portraying a role, and generally consider building up skills as a nuisance and an obstacle to being able to play "the role they want".  However, I feel there are a many benefits generated by the current development cycle and would be loathe to throw that away.  More people should consider the skill grind as -part- of their character development and work it into their daily routines instead of trying to figure out ways to avoid or circumvent it.  My most successful character had scan, listen, haggle, pilot, ride, and value.  Skills are not necessary for having fun, being successful, or achieving things.

If you know you're one of those people that hates the skill grind, I suggest you manage your expectations and select roles that don't depend so readily upon coded skills in order to be successful, such as performers, quartermasters, servants, artists, beggars, hawkers, merchants, aides, laborers, informants, spies, recruiters, scholars, and such.  I think that suggestions like Fathi's and Melody's are the right way to go in terms of offering alternative roles to casual players.

-LoD

[Gimfalisette]

I realize there is a camp that feel skills are a necessary evil to portraying a role, and generally consider building up skills as a nuisance and an obstacle to being able to play "the role they want".  However, I feel there are a many benefits generated by the current development cycle and would be loathe to throw that away.  More people should consider the skill grind as -part- of their character development and work it into their daily routines instead of trying to figure out ways to avoid or circumvent it.  My most successful character had scan, listen, haggle, pilot, ride, and value.  Skills are not necessary for having fun, being successful, or achieving things.

You know what I hate about this sentiment here, LoD? It's the implication that those of us who don't enjoy the skill grind are deficient somehow. But hey, guess what, I'm not deficient, or immature, or a powergamer, nor do I want an "easier" game, nor do I want to get an "unfair advantage" over other players.

This general attitude amongst the playerbase, quite honestly, makes me wonder why I bother trying. For once, I would just like to have it assumed that I (and other players who want changes) have the best interests of the whole game and all its players at heart.

Also, IMO, citing Khann as your most successful/fun PC etc is disingenuous in a discussion of this type; AFAIK, you played him in the range of 10 or so years ago, a time when I assume you had many fewer adult responsibilities and played a lot more hours overall. You weren't a casual player at the time and he wasn't a casually-played PC; there is little relevant comparison.

[staggerlee]

I like Melody's special roles idea more than skill bumps as well. Skill bumps will just piss off the playerbase. Roles like these also seem easier to implement.

I like them better as well.

That said, I think that should arm 2 come about, changing the way skills are increased would definitely help casual play and the overall game experience. High skill increases for less time spent with steeper diminishing returns. Get rid of the hours spent powergaming and let people actually roleplay, instead of faking it while skill-spamming. Endless powergamey repetition is best left to games like world of warcraft, which do it much better.

The notion that the skill grind serves only as a time sink and is somehow an obstacle to RP seems somewhat short-sighted to me.  It's like saying, "Let's skip the rehearsals and go straight for the performance."  There are several ancillary benefits that come along with the process of improving one's skills:

> The process allows players to be seen performing their related jobs, both by obvious and hidden observers alike.  This visibility is often paramount for ingratiating one's character into the flow of the game.  

> A slower development cycle basically ensures that you will have characters at various levels of progression at any given time, simply because time is required to build up these skills and people begin characters at different times.  Increase the speed of the cycle and you run the risk of eliminating much of the middle-ground, which lessens the depth and makes things less interesting. If you don't think that's important, feel free to visit a Harry Potter premiere event 5 minutes before the movie and cut in line.  I imagine it won't sit well with the other people who have spent a considerable amount of time getting to where they are and value their position.

> The process of developing skills also builds a sense of investment in the character, discouraging acts of recklessness or random violence for their own sakes.  People are more likely to value their character and, thus, act more realistically in the face of danger compared to a system where they know it will only take them a few days to get back to where they were.

I realize there is a camp that feel skills are a necessary evil to portraying a role, and generally consider building up skills as a nuisance and an obstacle to being able to play "the role they want".  However, I feel there are a many benefits generated by the current development cycle and would be loathe to throw that away.  More people should consider the skill grind as -part- of their character development and work it into their daily routines instead of trying to figure out ways to avoid or circumvent it.  My most successful character had scan, listen, haggle, pilot, ride, and value.  Skills are not necessary for having fun, being successful, or achieving things.

If you know you're one of those people that hates the skill grind, I suggest you manage your expectations and select roles that don't depend so readily upon coded skills in order to be successful, such as performers, quartermasters, servants, artists, beggars, hawkers, merchants, aides, laborers, informants, spies, recruiters, scholars, and such.  I think that suggestions like Fathi's and Melody's are the right way to go in terms of offering alternative roles to casual players.

-LoD

Steep diminishing returns seem to satisfy all concerns listed by both of you.

I realize there is a camp that feel skills are a necessary evil to portraying a role, and generally consider building up skills as a nuisance and an obstacle to being able to play "the role they want".  However, I feel there are a many benefits generated by the current development cycle and would be loathe to throw that away.  More people should consider the skill grind as -part- of their character development and work it into their daily routines instead of trying to figure out ways to avoid or circumvent it.  My most successful character had scan, listen, haggle, pilot, ride, and value.  Skills are not necessary for having fun, being successful, or achieving things.

You know what I hate about this sentiment here, LoD? It's the implication that those of us who don't enjoy the skill grind are deficient somehow. But hey, guess what, I'm not deficient, or immature, or a powergamer, nor do I want an "easier" game, nor do I want to get an "unfair advantage" over other players.

This general attitude amongst the playerbase, quite honestly, makes me wonder why I bother trying. For once, I would just like to have it assumed that I (and other players who want changes) have the best interests of the whole game and all its players at heart.

Also, IMO, citing Khann as your most successful/fun PC etc is disingenuous in a discussion of this type; AFAIK, you played him in the range of 10 or so years ago, a time when I assume you had many fewer adult responsibilities and played a lot more hours overall. You weren't a casual player at the time and he wasn't a casually-played PC; there is little relevant comparison.

This has been a common concern of mine through the thread. The gut level reactions are weird. Nobody is going to devalue your precious skill advancement... that's really not what this thread is about.

...but I'm just repeating myself. So I'll stop.

[spawnloser]

Not deficient, Gimf.  The assumption is that you are just like every other person in the world.  You have unrealistic expectations about something.

[Gimfalisette]

Not deficient, Gimf.  The assumption is that you are just like every other person in the world.  You have unrealistic expectations about something.

What a ridiculous statement. Change in any situation comes from asking for it. There is absolutely nothing "unrealistic" about desiring change.

[Comrade Canadia]

I cannot count the number of times that points in this board have been countered with The Game Is Perfect You're Just Playing It Wrong.

I'll try to avoid derailing here, but I do want to address  LoD's argument. I'm not saying that skill-based roleplay is inherently bad. Yes, having to practice to get good is a more than reasonable expectation, and I'm quite proud of how well I do with roleplaying in skill-spam situations. My issue is that there is too much of it, and after a certain point, it becomes a chore oocly, especially since - let's say in sparring, I'll be the only one who bothers to try and create narratives and combat emotes. With casters it's even worse. Hours upon hours of mindlessly repeating spells while trying desperately to think of new, exciting ways to think/feel/emote so that it's not complete monotony.

I'm certain the intention behind these roles is so that skills will increase to a level of reasonable competence after so many days of normal play. That's just not the case. A gemmer role demands that you spend a huge chunk of your first several days of playtime in isolation spamming spells so that you can actually -do- something with your character. If you don't like the skill-spam, you are effectively not allowed to play a competent gemmer. Incompetent ones can be fine, but why am I being barred from a character role because I'd prefer to spend my time RPing with others?

Sure, it's fun to play characters who are learning, who are not necessarily good at their roles, and all that. I've repeatedly applied for special roles where I intentionally play people who aren't supposed to be amazing at what they do. However, when I -want- to play someone competent at coded skills, I have a barrier of days upon days of nonstop skillspam I have to overcome.

I can deal with the time spent being weak, it's more than reasonable, and the games' "Start weak, get strong" mentality isn't one that'll change. I just argue against the amount of hours played spamming skills required to get strong.

Diminishing returns would totally fix this, and to tie this back into relevance in the thread - it'd also mean that less frequent players could enjoy a role that uses skills. Play your Bynner, spar less, but not be a liability on contract. Those who play eight hours a day could spend the free time doing something else - and we all win.

[spawnloser]

Not deficient, Gimf.  The assumption is that you are just like every other person in the world.  You have unrealistic expectations about something.

What a ridiculous statement. Change in any situation comes from asking for it. There is absolutely nothing "unrealistic" about desiring change.

No, you misunderstand.  I'm not saying you have an unrealistic expectation for expecting change.  You have an unrealistic expectation when building characters that need to do the grind to be successful.  You have an unrealistic expectation when (and if, I don't know if you supported this and don't care to go back and read through the entire thread to find out) you expect getting a skill boost at character creation would fix things.

[Dalmeth]

This general attitude amongst the playerbase, quite honestly, makes me wonder why I bother trying.

Because you will get to where you want to go, no matter what happens.

My primary problem with skill boosts is that they don't solve the problem.  There are still things you won't be able to do.  There are regular fallback options for the unskilled : mining and logging.  I've done these things to keep fed and watered while I was building up my character.  You know what?  I continued to be limited even after I worked my skills.