One of the threads in Player Announcements recently touched upon the desire of a few veteran players, not currently playing a character, lamenting the fact that the achieving success and having fun, admittedly by their personal definitions of those terms, cannot realistically accomplished in current design of Armageddon. The argument appears to be that the current design mandates a time commitment to maintain relationships, develop skills, and further plot lines that becomes prohibitive for the casual gamer.
What I would like to explore in this thread are ways that gap could be bridged, or at least shortened, so that casual players (~1 hour/day) would have a better chance of enjoying the game.
Initial Questions
1. Do you feel it's possible for a casual player to achieve coded success, clan leadership, and manage a detailed social network without fundamentally changing certain aspects of the game (e.g. how skills advance) and standard policies (e.g. limitations on OOC communication), or is that an unrealistic goal?
-- If that goal is unrealistic, would casual players be less interested if they couldn't achieve everything hardcore players could?
-- What are the most important types of activities casual players cannot do now that directly impact their "fun"?
2. How would you help facilitate a casual player's enjoyment of the game without trivializing the effort of people who simply have more time to play?
-- Is there a middle ground to be found between casual and hardcore players, or would that form a rift with those that feel time is simply a requirement of accomplishing certain things in the game?
-- Does accommodating the casual player somehow cheapen or lessen the reward received for accomplishing some of the tasks currently being labeled as "impossible without devoting 4 hours a day"?
Suggestions/Ideas
1. Provide casual players with an improved in-game method of receiving and delivering messages.
-- Create an in-game resource that would hold messages for other characters, allowing them to convey IC messages without resorting to OOC channels such as email, IM's, or chat rooms.
2. Increase the number of tools available for supporting and maintaining the day-to-day business of a clan.
-- Add the ability to hire NPC guards, merchants, and support-staff for their clan, which would allow them to occasionally log in and perform routine maintenance on a shop keeper, reposition a guard, or resupply a bin with food.
-- Allow clan leaders to allocate certain funds to be spent upon virtual resources/day, so that they might have a cistern that gets virtually filled with water once a day for 'x' coins, or a cook that will dispense 'x' meals per RL day until they are out.
3. Consider a character option choice for players who will never have time to practice their skills.
-- Perhaps players could opt for a special character-option (karma-related?) that allows them to begin at a medium-skill level, but with an inability to improve those skills. They would be able to perform at an average level, but might never be able to branch or improve those skills past that initial point.
I believe many of these changes, if ever implemented/adopted, would likely be added to Arm 2 -- but I thought the discussion might yield other alternatives or ideas that could be more quickly implemented.
-LoD
Goodness, you read my freakin' mind today, LoD. (Or I read yours.) I was just composing a post about this very issue.
Stuff I was writing before:
WHY make ARM more casual-friendly? What are the potential benefits?
-- A more casual-friendly ARM would help us recruit and retain players from a greater variety of life stages, geographical locations, and playstyles. This means a larger playerbase over time.
-- A more casual-friendly ARM would help us retain veteran players as they transition from a college schedule (which often has many hours of free leisure time per week) to a more "adult" schedule (which often doesn't). This means a better-quality playerbase over time.
-- Casual players are less likely to suffer from "seen and done it all burnout" over time, since they simply play fewer hours. So encouraging casual play means a longer-lived, less-jaded playerbase.
-- For you, the individual player, this means that even if you have unlimited time to play, you will still benefit from casual-friendly changes: You'll get more quantity and variety of companion players over time, and better quality. Plus, see additional possible benefits below.
-- Possible side benefits to making the game more casual-friendly:
-- Tools or systems or methods implemented might also help lift administrative burdens that suck IG time for leaders, which would increase leader satisfaction and improve leader retention over time.
-- Tools or systems or methods which help casual players further plots would mean there are more plots happening, and thus there is more for all players to do.
-- Tools or systems or methods which help casual players participate in the economy would mean there is more coin flowing, which benefits other players.
-- Tools or systems or methods which benefit casual players might make the use of out-of-game communication tools less attractive.
Barriers for casual players:
Sending messages
Example of the problem: Amos really needs to talk to Malik in game, but it seems like Malik's player isn't logging in at all, or isn't logging in at the same times Amos' player is. Currently, Amos' player has four basic options: 1. Log in and hang around, spamming contact, and hope to eventually catch Malik; 2. Log in and attempt to find a friend/lover/clannie/boss/minion of Malik's and get them to pass a message along; 3. Use an out-of-game communication method to say "I need to see you," such as PM or IM or email, if that contact information is known; 4. Give up. Sometimes these methods work, and often they don't; generally speaking, they all increase frustration and sense-of-fail for players. Using an out-of-game communication method often carries an additional psychological burden of guilt, even when intentions and usage are totally virtuous; not to mention that such contact is a slippery slope of OOC info-sharing.
Potential solution: Create messengers who wander the streets of the cities and will take messages for coins, then repeat them to the designated recipient. Allow messengers to be bribed in order to spill their secrets to third parties. For extra added bonus casual-play friendliness, allow messages to be sent from a web browser--with checks to make sure your PC is actually in the city/village/encampment in question.
Completing transactions
Example of the problem: Same situation as above, except that Amos wants to purchase something from Malik. Multiply the problem times the number of meetings the characters will need to have in order to complete the transaction, which is minimally two--but could be as many as four or five. This is part of why trying to buy stuff from GMH merchants is so frustrating, for both parties in the transaction. It's also why indie merchants aren't used more often; merchanting to PCs in general is just not a casual-friendly role.
Potential solution: Same as above. Allow small items to be sent by messenger. Messenger could be attackable, or items could be stealable, though this should be pretty difficult to do. (You'd want a good balance between items sometimes being taken, and more often being delivered--else players won't use the system.)
Skilling up
Example of the problem: Talia's background is moderately-seasoned, 25-year-old warrior. Unfortunately, the character's starting skills suck and have to be explained away with the transparently-lame excuses to which we're all accustomed. And, since Talia's player only has one hour per day to devote to logging in, the character's skills will suck for a long time to come, which does limit character options (you don't get chosen for the quest if you're not up to doing it). The frustration of long-term suckage is compounded by the fact that sometimes when Talia's player logs in, she manages to catch downtime for the clan--a day off, spontaneous outing that she missed out on, or other--and isn't able to get any practice in at all. So, no skill gain for that RL day. Now she feels like a twink for caring about her skills, but damnit, skills do matter! She is also tempted to do stuff that's OOC for her character (leave the city, go into the 'rinth, spar with someone outside of the clan), or to forego social roleplay, because she just wants to make some incremental skill progress. Frustration, guilt, and lower-quality play all around.
Potential solution: Other games have tried a variety of methods to solve this for casual players (see EVE, LotR, etc.). The basic idea is to un-nerf casual play somewhat, while retaining the overall greater skill-profitability of playing 24/7. Perhaps the most simple implementation of an offline skilling functionality for ARM would be to allow skill points to accrue in a single player-chosen skill during the PC's virtual life. Characters who are logged in for greater quantities of time would still be able to skill a greater quantity and variety, but those who cannot be logged in so much would make some progress as well. This is similar to EVE's system.
Making money
Examples of the problem:
Amos' player logs in to do his one hour, goes 'sid mining, has a pretty good haul, comes back to the city and...finds that he can't sell his 'sid because other players have been there first. Daily profit: -50 for the water he had to drink. Logs off frustrated.
Talia's player logs in to do her one hour, heads for her usual forest grove, but her skills suck so much that she only manages to chop down one tree before she must head back to the city. Daily profit: Break even. Logs off frustrated.
Malik's player logs in to do his one hour, scours the resource shops in the city for cheap stuff he can use for crafting, buys a few pieces of said cheap stuff, is dismayed to find he can only craft one thing...and breaks all five attempts. Daily profit: -50 for the crafting supplies he borked. Logs off frustrated.
Note that in all the above examples, the PC also had no time at all for socializing. There was only sufficient time to attempt (and fail) to do some money-making. Profit is, in the present game, the luxury of those who have unlimited time to play.
Potential solution: Tune currently-available "jobs" in the game (dung collection, logging, 'sid mining, clay-digging, cotton-picking) so that they are profitable for casual players, while disabusing overuse by players with more time to play.
Meeting new people
Example of the problem: Malik's player wants to meet some new PCs--he's got ideas for plotty goodness that require hiring grebbers and crafters and sending folks on quests. Malik spends an RL week logging in at his designated available time every day, and for some reason there is just no one in the social areas of the city at that time. Malik really wanted to get some stuff happening in the city, and it seems like from GDB postings and the in-game rumor board that there are people playing there...but he just can't seem to meet anyone, or to meet anyone who is potentially available for the stuff he needs done.
Potential solution: Turn the bartender NPCs into message-takers for their establishments. Malik could pay 50 coins to get a short advertisement* placed, and that message would become a rumor repeated by the bartender for a set period of time. Rumors would still be available to anyone asking in that establishment--along with the keyworded name and description of the person who placed the message, to discourage lame attempts at automated political/social subterfuge. *Set a limit on the number of characters in the message, so that the use of an aide or a bard would still be necessary for a more complex or politically-intricate message.
Recruiting minions
Example of the problem: Jak has finally been promoted to Byn Sergeant, and Jak's player is dismayed and frustrated by the quantity of time she has to spend on being available for basic stuff like recruiting. It's cutting into the short hours she has for playing, and reducing her fun. She's not long for the role without some support on the administrivia side of things.
And on the other side of the problem: Thorg's player wants to get his PC recruited into the Byn, and has heard from the Troopers he's seen that there are two currently-active Byn Sergeants, and yet he hasn't been able to find one for the last two RL weeks, despite logging in each day and trying for his whole hour of play. The clan seems active and like a good choice for his PC, he just can't get in, and frustration is mounting.
Potential solution: Automate membership for the Byn. This would entail having an NPC take the recruit's coin and give them an aba and clan membership; while an alert email to the current Sergeants and imms would be auto-generated.
Possibly the Byn is the only clan for which a solution like this would really work, since it really has little requirement other than the initial fee. But a solution even for the Byn alone would help retain both the newbies who seek its nurturing breast, and the Sergeants who do all the nurturing. (For nurturing read: Good-natured abuse.)
I was also looking into our discussion history on the casual player topic, here's some threads I think are interesting, for reference:
Web interface for *doing stuff* (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,34125.0.html) Discussion of issues that affect leaders, and how to reduce the administrivia burden on them, as well as benefit minions.
Advice needed: casual player (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35229.0.html)
Casual Gamers: Good or Bad (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,16636.0.html)
Accomodating low playtimes (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,33067.0.html)
Rather than creating a moderately skilled PC class who could never gain further skills, I'd like to see a different solution.
While going with the moderate-skilled PC class is a great idea, I would simply suggest that a flag is added to the PC which multiplies timers by 3. This alone would allow anybody, not just the casual gamer, to start a character at a higher skill level, while not allowing them to more rapidly become super-classes.
Both veteran players not interested in going through the grind, and casual players interested in starting out at a level of proficiency, could take advantage of this. It would simply be a question in char gen.
Do you want to start out as a veteran? A veteran starts with every skill
advanced halfway to max. But in exchange, a veteran takes three times as
long to gain skills as a non-veteran. Type 'yes' or 'no'.
This would not be hard to implement, I don't think.
I very much like the idea of special karma roles, custom crafted by the staff and intended for low playtimes.
These could be cultural roles or characters for plots. Trainers for the Tor Academy, prisoners languishing in cells, gith raiders... roles created and crafted for experienced players with low playtimes to hop on occasionally and bring the game to life for everyone else.
It's not a solution... but it's an exciting idea, I think. Though it would require a fairly high level of staff support and trust.
7DV, that idea is awesome. I would love something like that with about 7 out of 10 of my pcs.
My biggest problem has not been skills or 'sids; it's being around enough to be a part of important shared events.
At a given time, there are, for instance, only one or two Byn sergeants who interact with the PC population. But those two have to interact with ALL of the relevant PCs. If you're a Byn sergeant, you're gonna be sergeant of a PC unit, and that means being around for at least most of peak most of the time. Achievement-oriented folks who can't do this will be deathly bored; others will find themselves in ownership of the oldest Perpetual PC Trooper.
Two ideas:
- Promote off-peak or low-playtime characters into virtual units. If Trooper Malik's been around for a year longer than anyone else and has adequate abilities, give him the option of becoming a sergeant in command of no PCs. Maybe it'd be a boring role--but a side benefit is that it reinforces the fact that there are many Byn sergeants and units, not just the PC-populated ones.
- Create slots for non-leadership advancement: sort of a warrant officer rank, for people who've accumulated a lot of experience but can't handle management responsibilities. Sergeant Hardnose may be in operational command of Expert Tracker Quickeye, but he doesn't actually outrank him.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on August 10, 2009, 06:20:32 PM
- Create slots for non-leadership advancement: sort of a warrant officer rank, for people who've accumulated a lot of experience but can't handle management responsibilities. Sergeant Hardnose may be in operational command of Expert Tracker Quickeye, but he doesn't actually outrank him.
This is similar to something I tried ICly to do whilst leading in the AoD. Basically I wanted to create an "elite soldiering" team, where members would get advanced training, and then some clearance to not have to stay inside the walls all the bloody time. The plan never went past discussion with the templarate, however.
I do think the very rigid types of clan roles we have right now aren't all that functional for casual players, unless you happen to have one of those unusual leaders who will put some creativity and flexibility into things. (Fathi appeared to do this well for her players in Salarr.)
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 10, 2009, 03:44:59 PM
Rather than creating a moderately skilled PC class who could never gain further skills, I'd like to see a different solution.
While going with the moderate-skilled PC class is a great idea, I would simply suggest that a flag is added to the PC which multiplies timers by 3. This alone would allow anybody, not just the casual gamer, to start a character at a higher skill level, while not allowing them to more rapidly become super-classes.
Both veteran players not interested in going through the grind, and casual players interested in starting out at a level of proficiency, could take advantage of this. It would simply be a question in char gen.
Do you want to start out as a veteran? A veteran starts with every skill
advanced halfway to max. But in exchange, a veteran takes three times as
long to gain skills as a non-veteran. Type 'yes' or 'no'.
This would not be hard to implement, I don't think.
Question: Would this promote the obliteration of all newbie characters who -don't- start as veterans, as there would be so many more capable PCs out there? Or will the newbies simply have to be more careful, and be forced to do the grind more stringently.
Or perhaps we're assuming that these non veterans have time for the grind?
Quote from: MarshallDFX on August 10, 2009, 06:55:41 PM
Or perhaps we're assuming that these non veterans have time for the grind?
My personal preference would be to have boosts to starting skills be a perquisite of karma--say, I've got 5 karma, I can either play a magicker or HG of my choice, or I can maybe choose to play a mundane PC with a 5 x 5% boost to all starting skills.
And then implement a slow, virtual-skilling component so that those who are playing casually can make progress over time, even though it will still be less progress than that achieved by a player who simply plays more hours.
But as brytta pointed out, let's not get entirely derailed into a discussion of how to keep up in terms of skills and other hardcoded stuff. There are many more issues which casual players confront, and the involvement barrier is IMO the biggest deal.
Since I usually only play for three or four nights a week, for a couple of hours, I'd consider myself a casual player.
The main thing that I can't do now, that I would like to do, is RPTs. However, because RPTs are primarily on the weekends, and usually take several hours at a slice, they are totally out of my range. This is not something that coding could change, but it would be nice if leadership would accommodate.
As far as leadership roles, I have seen leaders who are on a lot more than me, and then tried to find some who are obviously not on when I am, or are on less than me, and I think if you wanted to make it work on a limited schedule, you could do a leadership role. As long as you don't try to bite off more than you can chew. When you have a limited time to play, you kind of have to realize your limitations, and pace yourself accordingly.
I'm not daunted at the possibility of not being able to attain everything hardcore players probably can. I just think it will take me longer. I think this is fair, because they put a lot more time in than I do, even though I wish I could play more. Starting skills are really painful, though. And improving skills seems to take a lot of time, which is not always time that I have. I don't feel entitled to accommodations, but if some were available, I would probably take them at least once, to see if they help the frustration with this any. Contact was a prime example, before they boosted it.
A lot of the tools Gimfalisette has suggested sound to me like they would be very helpful, not just for limited time players, but for people who play off peak, and people who play regularly too.
A potential problem I see is trying to tie everything in to karma - such as having special casual roles available at a karma cost, or making you able to play 'veteran' players at a karma cost. I'm not positive, but a big factor in getting karma seems to be how often you catch the staff eye. And that can be a direct function of time - the more you play, the more interesting you are to watch, because you're more involved, and so the more eye you catch and karma you get. So making casual-player accommodations tied to karma roles or karma would probably not do much. It's the new casual players that you'll have the hardest time retaining anyway, due to feeling overwhelmed, and like they can't get anywhere in the game.
Quote from: MarshallDFX on August 10, 2009, 06:55:41 PM
Or perhaps we're assuming that these non veterans have time for the grind?
I think my record (IC and RL) is about 15 days played over nine months. I'd in many (most?) cases be pretty glad to play "days" 15-20 over the same time range; on the other hand, our real power-players would be unlikely to be satisfied with that limitation.
Touching the idea of karma limitation, I think this is sufficient: require zero-karma players to start without any skill boost. I think we want to be sure that people understand the setting before letting them drive an even moderately skilled-up dwarf warrior.
(And, like I said, I'm okay with skill progression as it stands. I just know that I'm never going to play a really powerful human mundane.)
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 10, 2009, 02:29:59 PM
Potential solution: Tune currently-available "jobs" in the game (dung collection, logging, 'sid mining, clay-digging, cotton-picking) so that they are profitable for casual players, while disabusing overuse by players with more time to play.
1. I think this is already the case to some extent, at least for magickers practising spells.
2. Why punish players with more time to play? Sounds like after an hour of doing whatever, they'd might as well just sit in a tavern for the rest of the RL day according to this scheme.
QuotePotential solution: Automate membership for the Byn. This would entail having an NPC take the recruit's coin and give them an aba and clan membership; while an alert email to the current Sergeants and imms would be auto-generated.
Possibly the Byn is the only clan for which a solution like this would really work, since it really has little requirement other than the initial fee. But a solution even for the Byn alone would help retain both the newbies who seek its nurturing breast, and the Sergeants who do all the nurturing. (For nurturing read: Good-natured abuse.)
Uh....no.
The Byn is the clan that has the least strict guidelines for recruiting. However it's up to the sargeant's discretion, last I heard. There are people a sargeant will turn away. Being made to have to take those people in even though realistically there's no way in hell they'd ever get in just seems really wrong.
I'm sympathetic to the casual player, but perhaps we should come up with another solution instead of vending machine Byn recruiters.
I like 7DV's idea but agree with Gimf that it should be a karma-required thing and not an option for non-mundane classes. I think it should be placed at three or more karma. Also to make it more realistic there should be a minimum age limiit (by race) when creating a veteran character.
Once there, you can create any pc that you'd have the karma for, plus have the option of making a mundane class that starts with fifty percent of their max skill level and a penalty to their progression from there on out.
The first nice thing about this idea is it would help with the casual player not having to spend their precious time grinding skills or be "skillwise" a green character for their entire lives and it would free up what time the casual player has for other types of interaction. The second nice thing is that it would allow more experienced and trusted players an option to create that "veteran" character that doesn't have green skills. I've heard people complain about that several times over the years.
I would say tweak some of the "jobs" in the game to pay out better than they do now but not as well as they once did.
Those are my suggestions and agreement to some of the proposals.
50% of starting skills would be way, way, way too powerful, IMHO. I would approach it a bit differently, to allow players to scale themselves somewhat, by changing how subguilds work.
Subguilds are supposed to be your background. However, despite however many years you did something in your background, you are just a little better than total suckage at your subguild skills when you start. I would suggest that starting subguild skill level scale with the age of the PC. So for a 13 year old human, subguild skills start at the current level. For a 35 year old human, subguild skills are maxed. A 25 year old human would get skills points on each skill equal to 6/11 of the points between minimum and maximum.
Add in a new subguild, lets call it "profession" (or a series of subguilds, ie profession warrior, profession ranger, etc). The profession subguild would work like subguilds above, but contain a subset of the starting skills of that guild. So a warrior might get slight bumps to some combat skills, a merchant might have better haggle/crafting starting levels, a magicker might have a branch spell or spells that they can use more effectively from the beginning. The trade off being that this subguild would only impact skills you would already get, and to comparable levels as other subguilds. And it would be tied to age, so a 35 year old warrior with subguild profession would be better than a 20 year old warrior with subguild profession.
That's not bad, Twilight.
Establish a, "courier service," running out of Nenyuk. A PC leaves an item, sets a price (could be no price at all) for pick up, sets a target for pick up, and then has the option of leaving a message.
Every dawn, the courier service contacts people with outstanding orders and calls them to pick it up, and who it's from. The target PC comes to the service, pays the price, which goes into the original PC's bank account, gets the message, and goes about his merry way.
Simple as that, really.
Rotten, which "Malik" is the right one? And what stops someone with the same name coming by and picking it up? Would it need truenames? And what if you said "Give this to Ames" instead of Amos, can you get it back?
I have always liked the idea of 'quests', doable once a RL day. This would allow those who play an hour a day to do something fun, and would be newbie friendly too. There are literally hundreds of possible quests. Thousands, if you take the whole world into account.
Not to mention, of course, the 'jobs' we have now.
I only like the idea if it were limited to a strict special application process. Players who deserve the skills and can act responsibly with them will have some karma already and have proven their trustworthy selves to a few people.
I usually only play one to three hours a night, if I play at all, and I feel like I get a lot out of it. With one of my recent characters, I got a lot completed and had sooo much more to do before I was smitted(sp?) by cruel immortals. (Don't read into it. I love them. I am just angry.)
I think as long as you play every day, you wont be written off as dead 30 times like I usually am.
Quote from: deviant storm on August 10, 2009, 09:40:49 PM
QuotePotential solution: Automate membership for the Byn. This would entail having an NPC take the recruit's coin and give them an aba and clan membership; while an alert email to the current Sergeants and imms would be auto-generated.
Possibly the Byn is the only clan for which a solution like this would really work, since it really has little requirement other than the initial fee. But a solution even for the Byn alone would help retain both the newbies who seek its nurturing breast, and the Sergeants who do all the nurturing. (For nurturing read: Good-natured abuse.)
Uh....no.
The Byn is the clan that has the least strict guidelines for recruiting. However it's up to the sargeant's discretion, last I heard. There are people a sargeant will turn away. Being made to have to take those people in even though realistically there's no way in hell they'd ever get in just seems really wrong.
I'm sympathetic to the casual player, but perhaps we should come up with another solution instead of vending machine Byn recruiters.
Just wanted to throw another "hell no" on that one. Please, no auto-recruiting for the Byn, or any clan for that matter. *shudder*
I'm torn on all of this. I feel for the people that can't play as much but still want to get all the Crackageddon-y goodness. I guess I've finally reached that point where I'm afraid of changes like this. As much as the skill grind annoys me, I'm kind of -glad- it's there. Established characters can be truly powerful. It'd be so weird if casual player character x popped out of nowhere from time to time, able to slaughter newbs. Anyway, I don't think that's the main point.
The problem I see the most when I cut back on my playtimes (and mind you, I'm certainly not "hardcore", I maybe average a little more than two hours a day, if no RPTs are going on) is the general disconnect from other PCs. I don't think any amount of code wizardry or skill-tweaking can fix that, and frankly, I like it that way. You need to be involved to be involved. Rather than have blanket go-arounds for having a skilled, well-connected character from the get-go, I think it should just be handled by spec apps.
"But Zoltan!" you exclaim, "that's easy for you to say. It's not like you're one of the casual gamers in question." No, I'm not. But this kind of balancing stuff as it relates to Arm just kind of... fills me with dread for some reason. I can't really specify, as I have a splitting headache right now and I'm pretty sleepy. I'll be sure to jump back in on this discussion when I have something more substantial to add. I will say, though: in all reality, the day I stop playing this game regularly is the day I start playing much more innocuous roles, or the day I finally throw in the towel. And that's not saying anything bad about the game structure or anything else -- it'll just be that time. I like Arm how it is, and any serious changes to its progression and structure give me pause.
I like the idea of being able to start a character off with higher skills, provided they meet certain requirements such as age.
I would also like to see more low-level "sponsored" roles offered by staff. Not sponsored in the current Armageddon sense of the word--leaders that get staff support--but postings more like:
QuoteWanted: Senior Servant, House Oash
Location: Allanak
Minimum Karma Requirement: None.
You are a lifelong servant of Allanak's illustrious and mysterious House Oash, trained in how to better serve the House's nobility for as long as you can remember. The role of 'servant' can be anything from aide to cook to guard. Email allanaki_nobles@armageddon.org with a brief outline of your character concept. Depending on background and guild, your character may be given a slight skill boost and will be granted one set of Oashi livery armour or a House uniform.
QuoteWanted: Human Tribal Elders
Location: Varies.
Minimum Karma Requirement: 2.
You are a venerable and long-lived member of one of Zalanthas' human tribes, either the Arabet, Al'Seik or Jul Tavan. Unlike many of your blood, you have retained both the skill and presence of mind to persevere--perhaps even flourish--despite the harshness of nomadic life. You are at least thirty-five years old and you may choose from any profession, though please keep your chosen tribe's documentation in mind. Mages considered as per tribal docs. Depending on your age and guild, you will be given moderate boosts to certain skills as well as a selection of tribal gear.
Two other RPI games that I've tinkered around with use a system kind of like this, and personally, I really like it. It allows casual players to app right into a role in a clan without necessarily having to take on leadership, kind of like how the Tan Muark is currently handled rather than a call for a noble or templar.
I do not like the idea of increased stats and/or skills for casual players. Way too easy to twink such a thing. "Oh, my life just changed and now I have 10 hours a day to play"!?!?! Who would keep track of hours played? Maybe some coded thing...you play more than 10 hours a week and your player drops dead automatically? In my experience, a player that has an hour or two a day can produce a very viable character. Will you be as buff as some other character? No...but nobody is.....you can play 6 hours a day and someone else can play 10...you play 12 and some will be able to play 16. It never ends. Play whatever time you have and have fun!
I think that it would be incredibly positive for Armageddon to embrace players with lower playtimes. A lot of people find that as an adult they can't sustain the kind of play that Armageddon requires for very long. I say "as an adult" because finding the time to MUD wasn't an issue for me in highschool or my first couple years of university.
I absolutely agree with the analysis Gimf gave on the potential benefits of low playtime players. It'll build a more diverse, stable community, and you'll win over a lot of people that might have much to contribute but can't handle the current demands of the game.
Now the response is always: "But my cousin's brother's friend plays an hour a week and loves it!" To which I say: Good for him! But he's not normal! The second response tends to be, "But with a great leader, clans can..." To which I say the same. That isn't what I'd call a normative experience. The game should be accessible to players with much more limited time than it currently offers, as a group, not only the exceptional ones.
I don't think I really need to touch the "... but hardcores don't do all this work so that casuals can come muck around, we've earned this!" argument. This isn't WoW.
Quote from: Fathi on August 11, 2009, 01:34:40 AM
I like the idea of being able to start a character off with higher skills, provided they meet certain requirements such as age.
I would also like to see more low-level "sponsored" roles offered by staff. Not sponsored in the current Armageddon sense of the word--leaders that get staff support--but postings more like:
QuoteWanted: Senior Servant, House Oash
Location: Allanak
Minimum Karma Requirement: None.
You are a lifelong servant of Allanak's illustrious and mysterious House Oash, trained in how to better serve the House's nobility for as long as you can remember. The role of 'servant' can be anything from aide to cook to guard. Email allanaki_nobles@armageddon.org with a brief outline of your character concept. Depending on background and guild, your character may be given a slight skill boost and will be granted one set of Oashi livery armour or a House uniform.
QuoteWanted: Human Tribal Elders
Location: Varies.
Minimum Karma Requirement: 2.
You are a venerable and long-lived member of one of Zalanthas' human tribes, either the Arabet, Al'Seik or Jul Tavan. Unlike many of your blood, you have retained both the skill and presence of mind to persevere--perhaps even flourish--despite the harshness of nomadic life. You are at least thirty-five years old and you may choose from any profession, though please keep your chosen tribe's documentation in mind. Mages considered as per tribal docs. Depending on your age and guild, you will be given moderate boosts to certain skills as well as a selection of tribal gear.
Two other RPI games that I've tinkered around with use a system kind of like this, and personally, I really like it. It allows casual players to app right into a role in a clan without necessarily having to take on leadership, kind of like how the Tan Muark is currently handled rather than a call for a noble or templar.
I think that something like this would be absolutely excellent. It's not only for "casual" players though, so allow me to suggest one more category on the advert:
Recommended Playtime: Low (Player should attempt to log in once or twice a week, for as long as they feel appropriate.)
Recommended Playtime: High (This role is not recommended for players with significant others.)
I partially agree with what Cowboy said. Coded skill increases because you can "only play an hour or two a day" is kinda ridiculous. When I started my current character, I played ALL the time because I was depressed and didn't have a job. Since those changed, I play, mostly, 3 hours a night unless someone sucks up my time.
Am I advancing as quickly as I did before? No. But I am still considered very active, and do get a lot accomplished.
That said, the people that play maybe 4 hours a week, cannot realistically hope to be some Black Robe Templar due to playtime and skills. There has to be an understanding that low playtime characters, while most that I know add more to the gameworld than I do, cannot be counted on for anything and might not make it into plots.
I'd like to hear more from the people that cannot play often, and what is specific about their problems with the game. What I've heard, I've liked, but I think a lot of people with consistent, agreeable playtimes have taken over speculation on this thread.
My random opinionss on the matter (I haven't read the whole thread, though).
I don't like (automatic) starting skill increases for karma players.
I do like the idea of having more non-leadership, non-time-intensive roles offered by the staff.
I don't like unrestricted auto-recruitment for any clan.
I'm less averse to karma-restricted auto-recruitment for some clans... but on the other hand, shouldn't karma players know that if you can't find a PC leader during your regular playing hours, you probably shouldn't be joining that clan anyway?
I like the idea of having enough coded jobs that a character can subsist off them, even danger-free coded jobs.
I like the idea of restricting those jobs so that a character can only subsist off them and not get rich, but make it play-time based, not RL time based.
Really, though, I think there are already plenty of tools in place to enjoy Armageddon casually. Just ditch the idea that you have to compete with hardcore players in any way.
Quote from: Cowboy on August 11, 2009, 10:29:36 AM
I do not like the idea of increased stats and/or skills for casual players. Way too easy to twink such a thing. "Oh, my life just changed and now I have 10 hours a day to play"!?!?!
Quote from: Riev on August 11, 2009, 11:14:23 AM
Coded skill increases because you can "only play an hour or two a day" is kinda ridiculous. <snip> That said, the people that play maybe 4 hours a week, cannot realistically hope to be some Black Robe Templar due to playtime and skills. There has to be an understanding that low playtime characters, while most that I know add more to the gameworld than I do, cannot be counted on for anything and might not make it into plots.
I'd like to hear more from the people that cannot play often, and what is specific about their problems with the game. What I've heard, I've liked, but I think a lot of people with consistent, agreeable playtimes have taken over speculation on this thread.
I'm not sure where y'all are getting this idea that the system changes we are proposing in order to alleviate the issues faced by casual players would not also be available to players with more time to spare.
Nor do I know where this idea that casual players think they should be playing Black Robes is coming from. WTH? Try re-reading the basic message, which is, "I'd like to be able to play one hour a day and still have fun."
There are already a lot of us casual players (low available playtime) posting on this thread--me, staggerlee, jhunter, LoD. Go read the threads I linked, there is yet more discussion from other low-playtime players who find particular aspects of the game frustrating.
I find the attitude of some of the younger, higher-playtime players that "casual players should go find another game because I am afraid of change and prefer to keep my high-playtime advantages" to be disheartening. I just don't understand why growing the playerbase is that threatening.
Reality check: We still have fewer players per week than we did 3 years ago, right before "The Announcement." Hurrah for a smaller game? Don't think I'll be joining in that cheer.
We stole the Death E-mail Idea from SoI and I think Fathi's roles with few responsibilities are another thing worth stealing from them too. ;)
I also think a player guide about types of casual roles that a person could try would be an interesting thing to read (or perhaps write). I'd imagine roles like a prostitute, a beggar, a dungsweeper or a stablehand could work -very- well under the restraint of an hour a day (so long as other PCs support that and don't go all "omg no weapons, must be magicker" on them, and even allow them into clans in some cases). However, if the issue is accomplishment... you can't really "accomplish" much with any of those roles. You could, however, create fun for yourself and others, which is an accomplishment in itself.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 11, 2009, 11:28:00 AM
I'm not sure where y'all are getting this idea that the system changes we are proposing in order to alleviate the issues faced by casual players would not also be available to players with more time to spare.
Nor do I know where this idea that casual players think they should be playing Black Robes is coming from. WTH? Try re-reading the basic message, which is, "I'd like to be able to play one hour a day and still have fun."
You're just covering up the proposal for Imm "Death Panels" that will kill or store players who play more than 10 hours per week. Don't lie.
I like most of these suggestions. I'm at a point in life where my play times fluctuate from "lots" to "none at all." Some months, I'm traveling and living alone - which means I have lots of time in my evenings for play. Other months, I'm at home with my wife, have errands, meetings, etc., etc., ... and thus, no time to play. My life is going to increasingly switch toward "no time to play" in the next few years. The idea of still being able to play a meaningful role beyond "lone grebber" is appealing to me. But if the time comes that that's pretty much my only option, abandoning Arm for my career/family won't require even the smallest nanosecond of thought.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on August 11, 2009, 11:18:37 AM
Really, though, I think there are already plenty of tools in place to enjoy Armageddon casually. Just ditch the idea that you have to compete with hardcore players in any way.
This is a big one. I think it's the most significant hurdle for most folks, because most folks that have or are becoming "casual" players are ones who were intense/involved/heavy players in the past. It's really a very large mindset/behavioral change to move to a non-competing casual player from what you've known and liked. I think ideas and discussions as to how to make the road shorter and less bumpy are good, but it's really a pretty significant distinction (lots of time vs little time) that really, regardless of code and other changes, absolutely requires a behavioral/expectation/mindset change. Most folks just can't quite get there.
Quote from: Dakurus on August 11, 2009, 11:52:00 AM
Quote from: Marauder Moe on August 11, 2009, 11:18:37 AM
Really, though, I think there are already plenty of tools in place to enjoy Armageddon casually. Just ditch the idea that you have to compete with hardcore players in any way.
This is a big one. I think it's the most significant hurdle for most folks, because most folks that have or are becoming "casual" players are ones who were intense/involved/heavy players in the past. It's really a very large mindset/behavioral change to move to a non-competing casual player from what you've known and liked. I think ideas and discussions as to how to make the road shorter and less bumpy are good, but it's really a pretty significant distinction (lots of time vs little time) that really, regardless of code and other changes, absolutely requires a behavioral/expectation/mindset change. Most folks just can't quite get there.
I'm not sure that describing Arm as a competitive arena is a very good idea.
I'm not saying you're wrong that people need to consider their own perspective at all, but a lot of the naysayers seem to be saying "But it's not competitive or fair to the hardworking people that can raise skills all day long!"
I always sorta thought Arm was supposed to be about roleplaying, storytelling and interaction. ;)
Competition takes many forms, not just skills. It involves being current, moving, shaking, hiring, managing, politics, territorial concerns and so many other things.
When someone says Conflict they don't always mean coded combat, the same can be said with competition.
Quote from: Dakurus on August 11, 2009, 11:52:00 AM
It's really a very large mindset/behavioral change to move to a non-competing casual player from what you've known and liked.
This is not about competition. Drop the "competition." I am not a competitive player; I am a cooperative player. And I'd appreciate being listened to for my perspective, rather than being told what it is.
I just want to be able to log in for an hour and have some fun. It's pretty simple.
Pick apart the words, the point is the same. Major variation of time spent will mean major variation of results. It can affect cooperation in much the same as competition.
One can argue all day about how competitive, cooperative, or any other word can be best used to describe characters or players play, when it's likely it's all of them to some degree. That's really not relevant.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 11, 2009, 12:03:59 PM
I just want to be able to log in for an hour and have some fun. It's pretty simple.
Please do so.
QuoteThe idea of still being able to play a meaningful role beyond "lone grebber" is appealing to me. But if the time comes that that's pretty much my only option, abandoning Arm for my career/family won't require even the smallest nanosecond of thought.
Exactly. I love the game, I have many great stories of things that have happened in the past when I could play enough to both get a pc up "codedly" and "socially". When you have less time to play, "codedly" takes so much time up that it becomes a choice between one or the other and it kills the enjoyment of the game. Yes, the game is about roleplay, but it is a mud and there are coded aspects to it that need to be taken into consideration also. It really sucks that if your playtimes get cut way down by life, you only get to interact with others by having your pc remain perma-newb. It really sucks that if your playtimes get cut way down by life, you only get to become a more skillful character by sacrificing your time to rp. Only one or the other isn't fun, it's a combination of the two that makes it fun. (at least for me).
The idea of (however this is accomplished) being able to start a pc that isn't codedly green, that can do things somewhat skillfully out of the gates so that I can concentrate on the social aspect of the game and get involved in plots and activities during the time I'm logged in, excites me. Because when the choice is left as stated above, I just don't bother to log in because I know the situation will suck and it breaks my heart.
Quote from: Dakurus on August 11, 2009, 12:09:23 PM
Pick apart the words, the point is the same. Major variation of time spent will mean major variation of results. It can affect cooperation in much the same as competition.
One can argue all day about how competitive, cooperative, or any other word can be best used to describe characters or players play, when it's likely it's all of them to some degree. That's really not relevant.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 11, 2009, 12:03:59 PM
I just want to be able to log in for an hour and have some fun. It's pretty simple.
Please do so.
I think that I largely covered this response in my earlier post. Nobody is saying that it's
impossible to enjoy the game with limited play time, just that it's very difficult and that more could be done to support those with a limited number of hours a day to play. "Stop whining and go have fun," is all well and good, but sort of over-simplifying and blowing off the issue.
Quote from: jhunter on August 11, 2009, 12:18:36 PM
QuoteThe idea of still being able to play a meaningful role beyond "lone grebber" is appealing to me. But if the time comes that that's pretty much my only option, abandoning Arm for my career/family won't require even the smallest nanosecond of thought.
Exactly. I love the game, I have many great stories of things that have happened in the past when I could play enough to both get a pc up "codedly" and "socially". When you have less time to play, "codedly" takes so much time up that it becomes a choice between one or the other and it kills the enjoyment of the game. Yes, the game is about roleplay, but it is a mud and there are coded aspects to it that need to be taken into consideration also. It really sucks that if your playtimes get cut way down by life, you only get to interact with others by having your pc remain perma-newb. It really sucks that if your playtimes get cut way down by life, you only get to become a more skillful character by sacrificing your time to rp. Only one or the other isn't fun, it's a combination of the two that makes it fun. (at least for me).
The idea of (however this is accomplished) being able to start a pc that isn't codedly green, that can do things somewhat skillfully out of the gates so that I can concentrate on the social aspect of the game and get involved in plots and activities during the time I'm logged in, excites me. Because when the choice is left as stated above, I just don't bother to log in because I know the situation will suck and it breaks my heart.
Yep. Yep. Yep. And again, for posterity: there's no reason that we shouldn't encourage people like this to play Arm. I realize that most staff and players on this board don't experience this issue to a very large extent, or they wouldn't be who they are and where they are... but that doesn't mean it's not an issue.
Nothing needs to be lost from the current incarnation of the game for it to expand its player base. It's an opportunity for growth, both in quality and in playerbase.
Quote from: Dakurus on August 11, 2009, 12:09:23 PM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 11, 2009, 12:03:59 PM
I just want to be able to log in for an hour and have some fun. It's pretty simple.
Please do so.
Thanks, this helps!
My 2 cents.
I enjoyed sitting and watching a performance that took 1 - 1 1/2 hour RL. Is that a luxury that only a relatively advanced character can enjoy? I know some of my prior unsuccessful characters were a half skin away from dying of thirst many times so that was not an option for them. They never could afford a mount. If I only had 1 hour to play would I have to choose between scrounging for survival or fun? Grebbing is time consuming, difficult, dangerous and fun in a different sort of way.
Here is a proposal: create a new class for players - with easy low level sid making ability but few advanced skills to work on (Generic City Dweller?). Then you won't have to spend a lot of time on water and food, can buy some nice/unique items (the silky things that say you are not a newbie, maybe even afford an apartment) and spend most of your time interacting with others. For a bone you can give one or two advanced branchy things if you want.
It doesn't take care of the communication problem - how to find people to RP with when you have limited time - but at least survival is not a hurdle anymore.
I would imagine that steeper diminishing returns would help close the skill gap somewhat. It would make the game more "competitive" for low play time players, reduce the demands of the grind, and... I don't see any disadvantages.
Personally, I think this is a mindset issue.
20% boost to all your starting skills? Um... that's already a bit much I think. 50% is ridiculous. I'm sorry, this isn't because I want to screw people with low playtimes. At an average, I probably only play just a few hours per day, myself. There are plenty of ways for your character to make a living without having to join a clan and then you just seek out people that are around, while your character isn't working, to socialize with. You don't need to get wrapped up into the mega-plots and the social scheming and all that.
Quote from: staggerlee on August 11, 2009, 12:28:29 PM
I think that I largely covered this response in my earlier post. Nobody is saying that it's impossible to enjoy the game with limited play time, just that it's very difficult and that more could be done to support those with a limited number of hours a day to play. "Stop whining and go have fun," is all well and good, but sort of over-simplifying and blowing off the issue.
[
I'm not blowing it off, nor am I over simplifying. I read every post in this thread and I believe some of them are helpful in smoothing the road. I don't agree with some, at least to the degree they were suggested. I am focusing on the most significant issue which is, the time. Zoltan had a very good point buried in his post. Coded additions in general, although some suggested might help, don't replace the ability to feel and be "connected" that time played gets you. One will never have the opportunity to develop relationships and experience things to the extent one would with more time spent.
Let me reiterate part of a line from LoD's original post and premise:
"lamenting the fact that the achieving success and having fun, admittedly by their personal definitions of those terms, cannot realistically accomplished in current design of Armageddon"
It's about personal definitions. How each person has fun, about how each person succeeds.
I see Gimf has already replied to my reply, to her reply, about logging in for 1 hour and having fun.
I honestly feel helpless to help her. If she can't do it because the game just isn't fun for her, it's part the game's fault and part her definition of fun's fault.
We certainly can consider tweaks and additions, but we cannot cater this game to every individual definition. Even if/when we add tweaks, it will be unlikely to meet specific individuals definitions, and it will require each person to evaluate and decide can they change their definitions by however much to meet their level of success and fun.
We add to the game, and hopefully most of these are enhancements. Hopefully most of these changes are positive and add to the experience. The game has few specific requirements beyond being IC, the ability to connect, and following what rules are there about play or expectations for certain roles. All other requirements are in each persons head, driven by experience, expectation, peer pressure, and their personal evaluation of the results.
That's why each person that finds the mud, interacts with it, and then makes a decision to be a customer or not. It either satisfies their personal tastes or it doesn't. The fact that you the reader are reading this, usually means it did.
I guess my more straightfoward and realistic belief is that, it's more likely for the individual to meet the behemoth, then the behemoth to meet each individual. If you can have fun now with one hour play times, even though certain things are tough, annoying, or not to your expectation, then after some enhancements your fun might be marginally better. If you can't, I doubt you'll be able to with those enhancements.
Quote from: spawnloser on August 11, 2009, 12:55:04 PM
Personally, I think this is a mindset issue.
20% boost to all your starting skills? Um... that's already a bit much I think. 50% is ridiculous. I'm sorry, this isn't because I want to screw people with low playtimes. At an average, I probably only play just a few hours per day, myself. There are plenty of ways for your character to make a living without having to join a clan and then you just seek out people that are around, while your character isn't working, to socialize with. You don't need to get wrapped up into the mega-plots and the social scheming and all that.
I didn't actually mean fifty percent, I just picked a number. Sorry I wasn't clear about that.
QuoteIf you can have fun now with one hour play times, even though certain things are tough, annoying, or not to your expectation, then after some enhancements your fun might be marginally better. If you can't, I doubt you'll be able to with those enhancements.
I disagree. The suggestions are coming from people in those exact situations. Noone knows our personal situations better than us. If variations of the suggestions were implemented to help the situation, most of the suggestions would also benefit the game in other areas besides just this particular aspect.
How many times does someone think they want something... but what they really want is something else, they just thought the first thing would make it so they had the second thing? I think that's what making more skilled characters is. They want to feel like their character isn't a total noob character with no skills. "I'll take a more skilled character so I can..." isn't a valid reason. You don't need a more skilled character to have fun. You need to stop feeling like your character needs coded abilities for you to have fun with the character.
QuoteYou don't need to get wrapped up into the mega-plots and the social scheming and all that.
That's like telling someone who wants a meat and potatoes dinner that they don't need meat or potatoes to enjoy it.
QuoteYou need to stop feeling like your character needs coded abilities for you to have fun with the character.
No, I don't. That might be perfectly fine for you but it isn't for everyone. Like it or not, it -is- part of the game, if it wasn't we'd be playing a mush.
Quote from: jhunter on August 11, 2009, 01:10:11 PM
QuoteYou need to stop feeling like your character needs coded abilities for you to have fun with the character.
No, I don't. That might be perfectly fine for you but it isn't for everyone. Like it or not, it -is- part of the game, if it wasn't we'd be playing a mush.
True, but I've never found "the grind" to take
so long to crawl out from under that I couldn't bear to keep going with the character.
I like a lot of the suggestions that have been offered, things like being able to get messages or items to another player without the need for the both of you to be logged in at exactly the same time would be a wonderful enhancement to both this game and Reborn! An idea like that could not only help bridge the gap between low playtime and high playtime players, but also between peak and off-peak players. It's really a fanastic idea and I hope that the staff consider it for implementation.
While I'm very much against the idea of being "auto-recruited" into any clan, I am for the idea of having a message board (in some IG incarnation, like a servant or rumor mill) outside the establishments of most major clans to again; faciliate in bridging the gap between people with different playing habits.
I think that if we had both of these systems in place, one would not NEED to be online when the rest of their clan mates were to feel as though they're still contributing to the game and making their own characters felt.
For example, lets say you roll up a typical ranger/lone grebber concept because you're an off-peak player and you ALSO don't have a lot of time to play. So worst case scenario on two counts.
With the above two mechanisims in place, you could go join a great merchant house without needing to hope you log in when a leader PC of said house does. I mean you won't have to hope because, through the clan's message board you can make your desire to be hired known, and can either arrange a RL time and day to meet with the needed leader PC via the boards, or perhaps simply have the entire hiring process be managed through the boards with a little bit of staff assistance at the end to add the newly hired PC to the clan.
With that out of the way, your PC can receive assignments and news about the clan through either an in game clan board, or a virtual one like we have on the GDB for most clans already.
So word through the grapevine is that your house needs to come up with a TON of marble, jasper, and goudra hides for an upcoming festival or some such.
Even though your PC isn't usually online when the rest of the clan members are, you're still more than capable of helping with this particular "quest". Your character can go do the work, bring it back to the clan compound or leave it via the previously mentioned coded "delivery service" for your clan leader, and make some kind of announcement on your clan's board to let people know that your PC was out working hard to get it all together.
In doing this, and various other jobs like it, I think that most folks would find a sense of meaning and acomplishment in their characters, no matter their play times or peak hours.
To me, it seems like the real issue behind the thread is that people with low play times feel like they can't even get their PC's foot in the door, and all they can do with the characters they have is greb about to stave off the next "You are thristy. You are hungry." message that pops across their screen, and I agree ... that sucks.
In my experience, grebbing, hunting, crafting, really doing any of the repetitive coded actions in the game, has always been PAINFUL; if there hasn't been any meaning behind doing it aside from "Well I want to the skill to increase so ..."
But I really think that giving players a skill increase off the bat is not the solution. I feel like that's treating the symptome, not the sickness.
What I mean by that is, when my PC's are at 1, 2, 3 hours played and still basically just trying to survive since they can't do ANYTHING yet with any degree of success ... I hate grebbing about with no point behind it.
When my PC's are at 8, 9, 10 days played and are now pretty darn good in all of the skills that they sucked at when I first got into game ... I still hate grebbing about with no point behind it.
So the sickness, to me ... is that people don't want to do log in and muck about without any kind of purpose or clearly defined goal in their mind. Without those goals and sense of purpose the game can start to feel like WoW without the cool graphics.
But for someone with a low playtime, or an off-peak schedule, it's hard to meet up with other PC's and communicate, establish those goals, and get involved. So I say lets introduce tools like the ones LoD mentioned in the OP, that allow characters the ability to communicate and exchange goods/services without needing to share the same play schedule! Something like that would really go a long way to binding the entire player base together instead of breaking it up the way it is now where off-peakers/low playtime kids can really feel like they're playing a different game from the one the on-peakers/high playtime kids are playing.
But I don't think skill increases would bring anything good to the game. I think that folks would just be sitting around bored with slightly better starting stats than the ones they had before.
My two 'sids.
Wait, wait, wait.
So several players (GOOD players from what I know of them) bring up the fact that armag is not a good game for casual play - and we're being told that the game is fine and they're not playing it right?
And now spawnloser implying that those who want casual play are just obsessed with high numbers and can't have fun without super-powered characters?
This isn't only dismissive, it's condescending. The game has NEVER been good for casual play, and it has been designed and driven by those who are able to play regularly and put serious amounts of time into their characters and staff roles.
I could accept (if not agree with) "Yes, it's not great for casuals, but that's not the game we built." But pretending that it somehow is good for casuals is just ludicrous to me.
Great post, Musashi.
For my suggestion, in my head at least, it went more like this:
Say someone wants to be a tailor. They want to make enough sid doing tailoring to be able to meet some minimum needs, and spend the rest of the time socializing, mudsexing and getting involved in what is going on, to the extent that they can. Lets say they have an hour a day, five to seven days a week to play. Currently, it would take them some amount of time to where they could realistically play out the role they wanted, someone who meets the basic needs of life through tailoring. Despite the fact that in their background, they've been tailoring for twenty years or whatever. This amount of time would be based on their ability to work their craft and fund their craft. Some would feel the time spent doing so was at the expense of the RP they could have been doing during this time.
I'm going to throw out that it might take a person a month or longer to get to where they wanted to be in the first place. It might take another player three to four days to get to that same point.
Adding some mechanism to step into a role that is able to support a player is, IMHO, one of the things that could lessen some of the other issues casual players face. Obviously, supporting them financially (beyond coded "jobs" which can be limiting), but supporting their chosen role in other ways as well (e.g. being able to steal as an elf, which can impact the esteem in which your elf is held). By decreasing the time practicing a craft and time spent to financially support that...to get to a place you can financially support yourself in your chosen role, you free up time that can be used to address other issues brought up here, like getting involved. Heck, having some skill in something, whether it be making clothes or knowing how to fight a little better, can help with getting involved.
I meant this to be concise, but I seem to be rambling on now. I guess, to me, what is important is for casual players being able to step into the roles more quickly (in terms of hours played with the character), including the ones which may take a small amount of skill to pull off.
When talking about the grind, keep in mind that 1 day of play on a character can easily take a RL month, or more, for the type of casual player that has been mentioned to rack up.
And the Byn used to have a board outside the compound, long ago. There were very few messages on it.
I would like very much for players who are less able to play the game -not- be given advantage over those who are.
If you can only play one or two hours a day, choose a role that can be well played at one or two hours a day.
Especially where leadership roles are concerned... there is nothing more frustrating in the world then never being able to find leader PCs for your clan or other clans that you or your clan are involved with.
Don't app a noble if you can only play one day a week.
Don't app a GMH head if you are can't stay on long enough for a RL hour long meeting to discuss a plot.
There are sooooooooooooo many ways to enjoy this game.
If you play style doesn't fit the role you want, it's not the game's fault. Choose another role.
I've just recently moved into the "casual game play" category.
I used to be able to spend 8-10 hours a day to the game because I could ace even upper-division undergraduate coursework without investing too much effort. Now, I have two children and what amounts to a full-time job, and I can only log in maybe an hour or two a week. Some observations and random thoughts:
1. IC time restrictions make sense, but they're hell on trying to get anything done. If I log in and it's already high sun, I might as well log right back out, because high sun - dusk isn't enough time to get anything useful done, and if I wait until dawn, I'll only have until the next high sun to finish what I'm doing and log out.
2. Trying to network is impossible, outside of your clan. Since the character turnover rate is so high, when I visit the bars, I only recognize a handful of old PCs who haven't bit the dust yet. These PCs are already involved in whatever they're involved with, so I basically have no reason to talk to them. The others come and go, but by the time I run into them, it seems like they've already chosen whatever path they're going to go down.
3. I suspect that skill progression will come to a grinding halt. While I can't say for certain what exactly the mechanics are, since they probably vary from skill to skill, having only 2 hours a week means only 100 or so hours a year. That's about 5 days playtime in a YEAR. It takes 5 days of playtime to break "utter newb" status even with dedicated powergaming, unless your wisdom is off the charts.
4. Since magickers progress much more quickly than mundane guilds, and they have the benefit of being able to practice their spells pretty much whenever they want, my initial suspicion is that these guilds will be much more conducive to casual play.
5. Not being able to get anything done severely impacts the enjoyability of the game. I'd say the vast majority of the enjoyment I get is from accomplishing short-term goals, whether that's buying a set of gear or branching a skill, or whatever. So far, I haven't been able to do much more than log in and look around for a bit before logging back out. Even interactions with my clan have been a bit unsatisfying, because I have to do everything hurriedly, given that I'm essentially "on the clock" and it's looming over my shoulder every moment.
6. I'm barely any use at all in any sort of leadership position, because I'm never around, and even though I'm probably near-maxed in my guild, I don't run into anyone frequently enough to make a difference in training or on missions and whatnot.
7. The knowledge that I probably won't get anything useful accomplished is a very large contributing factor in my decisions regarding whether or not to log in.
Quote from: Twilight on August 11, 2009, 02:08:58 PM
When talking about the grind, keep in mind that 1 day of play on a character can easily take a RL month, or more, for the type of casual player that has been mentioned to rack up.
And the Byn used to have a board outside the compound, long ago. There were very few messages on it.
To your first point, it's been my experience that by about 6 hours played (a week or so in terms of people with just an hour a day) all of my characters have advanced at least enough to sustain themselves. By that, I mean that my rangers have had a little stretch of turf that they've learned how o hunt/greb in, and they have the basic tools and equipment needed to do their thing; while my crafters have figured out how to either greb for, or find the money to buy componenants for the things they're interested in making, and they usually have a little apartment in the crime ridden cheap section of town.
You mentioned in your post above as an example, a person who wanted to play a tailor who made enough money to live off tailoring and spent most of their time socializing. To me, that sounds a bit like a special application, because it seems to be saying: a person who parachutes into the game at a higher starting level of profeciency than other people, and is already set up with a sustainable lifestyle.
And please don't think that I'm trying to knock it. I'm honestly completely cool with that, I would hope that staff would be completely cool with it as well ... just use one of your 3 a year special applications to have yourself set up.
But part of being a normal character is starting out at the bottom of the wrung where all the other normal characters start out at, and I think people have to app their back stories accordingly. So if you know you aren't going to be a special app character with higher starting skills, then putting in your background that your PC has been doing something for 20 years, and then being upset that the skills don't reflect that once you get in game strikes me as setting yourself up for failure. How much time you have a day to play completely beside the point.
Some interesting stories I've heard from players who wanted to app older aged, non-special app characters, turned out to be things like: "I used to be in the Byn back in the day ... spent most of my 'sid on whores and booze. Too old now, so I'm learning to sew clothing."
Or: "I grebbed most of my life, just living hand to mouth. May have had a child or two somewhere along the line, but I never really saw the mothers again. Then the droughts came and the price of water went up, no one could afford to drink. I thought I was going to die, and then something inside me just, broke, and water started seeping out of my skin. I thought I was dieing but, it wasn't sweat it was, water ... pure, cool, drinking water. Why did this have to happen to me!? I'd rather be dead!
Stories like that explain why a character advanced in years is not advanced in skill-sets, and I feel like if you're making a non-special app character, the responsibility is on you to make the background fit the in game conditions that you already know are going to be applied to you when you're approved.
But again, if folks want to jump into the game ahead of where other normal characters would jump in at, I think they should be freely allowed to do so, via the special app process. I think that's why it's there.
To your second point, about the Byn board. I think that how many messages were left on it, is not really important. What strikes me as more important would be, of those messages, how many were replied to and aided the players who left them there? If the answer is, "at least one" then I think the board was adding something good to the game.
Boards and delivery services and the like would be good tools to tie together players who have different playing schedules; but for the vast majority of peak time high playtime players who make up the bulk of the player base ... of course they wouldn't need to use such tools. They can contact the Byn Sergeant directly because he's online when they are. Or they'll just walk the item over to its buyer because they're always online together.
For me, how many times said service gets used is not at all important compared to how much use the players who need said service get out of it. Quality over Quantity and what not. If a message/delivery service like that allows even just 1 or 2 off peak players to FINALLY place and get their order for armor/silks/spice from that great merchant house ... or allows the 1 low play time Bynner to take a contract clearing the Red Silt Road of some scrabs who've taken up residence ... then those services have done their job.
As an off-peak player with fluctuating playtimes, I've been wrestling with these issues for as long as I've been playing. And I have to agree with those who've suggested that it all comes down to managing your expectations.
This is not to say that some of the changes mentioned here won't alleviate matters somewhat, but there really is no substitute for being able to play often, consistently, and at peak times. People are going to log in when you're not around, they're going to get together, things are going to happen spontaneously and you won't be a part of it.
Your PC is never going to wield significant social power and have his or her finger in every plot – in fact, your PC will be out of the loop most of the time. Your PC will never be the Known World's greatest warrior, or even get close. You aren't going to have that 10,000 sid bank account and the three-room apartment full of silk outfits. Well. Maybe you will, but it's going to take a long, long time and be pretty damned frustrating. If you have to have these things to have fun, you're probably not going to ever enjoy yourself.
I'm not trying to belittle anyone's complaints, but just offer the experience of someone who's "been there, done that" for many years, with results that have been sometimes satisfactory and sometimes very deeply not.
Some things that are on the table for Arm2 – namely player-owned shops and automated jobs – will really help alleviate issues of trade and money-making. For other problems, like skill increases and getting involved socially, there's never going to be a quick and universally acceptable solution.
I really like the idea of an EVE-style gradual skill increase while logged off, though I've no idea if it would even be possible to implement something like this – and I really don't like the idea of starting skill increases, particularly if they're tied to karma, which is going to be pretty difficult to get as a low play-time newcomer. In any case, a low play-time PC will almost always be less skilled than their high play-time counterparts; if you're obsessed with your PC's performance vs. other PCs, my suggestion is to try not to be.
I'd love to see an "odd jobs" board for those issues that don't really merit a gossip board post. For those who are clanned, perhaps more use of IG clan gossip boards (which have seemed woefully underutilized in every clan I've ever been in – I don't know if the posting restrictions are particularly harsh, or what). Many of my PCs would have loved the opportunity to contract a PC out on a very part-time basis and, as a player, I would be even more likely to try and find a task for someone who's off-peak and/or low play-time, as I know how frustrating it can be.
But there's no getting around the fact that if your PC isn't around very often, people typically won't remember you and are unlikely to involve you in much. Over time, some long-lived PCs may start to take an interest, but you have to tough it out for a while first.
Make friends with someone who has higher playing times than you, and get them to act as a messenger/courier.
Do make your limitations explicit (yes, I mean the OOC command), to avoid frustration on the part of the people you're dealing with.
And, frankly, if you really only have an hour or two per week to log in, unless you really like "flavor" characters who turn up occasionally to enliven a scene – the dung sweeper, the drunk, the spice addict, the beggar, the prostitute – you are probably not ever going to be able to get much out of the game, no matter what changes are made.
There's always a disconnect between people who have the time to devote to the game and those that do not, and it's a natural reaction to say that because I am not experiencing the same issues as you, that it is your problem rather than a problem. However, Armageddon has always attracted a wide variety of players, each of which is governed by a unique equation for having fun. We have a lot of different suggestions, opinions, wants, and hopes being thrown about this discussion, and no one should feel entitled to trample the other with definitive statements on how fun should be had.
That said, here are some of the suggestions and ideas that I like:
Special Request - Available Roles
I believe that Fathi's suggestion for having more frequently posted calls for "support" positions to be the suggestion that benefits the most people in question. It benefits the staff because they can control areas of the game where they would like to see more support, action, or players. It benefits casual players, because they can enter a role with a fairly clear understanding of where they stand and immediately become a useful part of an established chain. And it can benefit hardcore players by providing them with potential support players to handle tasks or fill gaps they honestly don't want to have to do themselves.
I would likely provide these support roles with very niche and limited skill advancements, that allow them to accomplish their primary objective without making them a hands-down better choice than a newly created character.
Available: Journeyman Armor Crafter, Salarr
Location: Allanak
Minimum Karma Requirement: None.
Recently competing your Journeyman status with the arms and weapons dealing House Salarr, you have begun the task of supplying agent
orders for armors and weapons. You will have a stipend of 300 coins a month, be supplied with appropriate clothing, and have access to
available storage and appropriate tools for your trade.
Benefit: This role comes with an enhanced armor crafting skill, and slightly enhanced haggle, value, and analyze skills.
Quests/Missions
While I don't like the idea of "random" quests being available, I do very much like the idea of staff and player leaders being able to set certain "quest" objectives with merchants and NPC's within a given city. Quests might be an organization buying on a goodly amount of a certain foraged product (e.g. chunks of sandstone) for a period of time. Players who cannot easily be part of major organizations could still potentially be useful and make a living by checking with these NPC's to see how they can help the House.
It would be especially good if these "quests/missions" were tied to major RPT's or HRPT's so that even casual players could recognize they were a cog in the wheel and contributed somehow to the success/failure of a certain event. (e.g. You know, I supplied most of the swords you now see used by the guards that remained after House Salarr took control of that bone yard from the gith.)
Couriers/Messengers
The ability to imperfectly pass items and messages would probably go a long way toward allowing casual players to keep in touch and player leaders to distribute orders to them. If such a service would be too much trouble, then even IC replacements would work. Having an NPC that lived somewhere within a clan home (i.e. GMH estate, Byn compound, AoD barracks) that could repeat IC orders left by a person of suitable rank could fill a similar void.
House Barracks [N]
A burly, black-eyed soldier sits behind a desk, issuing orders.
>ask soldier orders
You ask a burly, black-eyed soldier if he has any orders.
Glancing up at you, a burly, black-eyed soldier says, in sirihish:
"Orders? Aye, I've a few orders."
Clearing his throat, a burly, black-eyed soldier says, in sirihish:
"About a day ago, a lord templar said...we need ta patrol the northern 'rinth more heavily, make sure you pass by on your shift."
Accomplishments
I don't think that you have to change the fundamental game in order to provide what casual players seem to be craving the most -- some sense of accomplishment. All there needs to be are rewards that can be obtained through casual game play; rewards not only at a skill-gaining level, but also at a level that help PC's feel useful, relevant, and involved. This isn't as impossible as it seems, and could be managed with the introduction of a few scripted NPC's and well thought-out clan structures.
-LoD
Some games use a system where the first two, three or five hours of play in a week give double or triple skill growth. I don't know if that'd be impossible to implement in this system, but it nicely smooths the curve for many casual players, especially when there is a limit of one character per player. There is some pressure to log in and get things done, but I'm not sure its any more than an achiever personality would feel normally with low playtimes.
Quote from: spawnloser on August 11, 2009, 01:07:22 PMYou don't need a more skilled character to have fun. You need to stop feeling like your character needs coded abilities for you to have fun with the character.
This just isn't completely true. Sometimes, you do need skills to have fun doing a particular thing. Sometimes you are correct. Sometimes you don't need skills, but sometimes you do.
Having a veteran option, whether it is at 20% or 50%, is a way to help meet the need for those casual players who decide that, yes, they do need skills.Regarding the actual problem, though, of casual player achievement, I have to be honest and say that I think only flavor roles can actually fill this void. Examples of such a role would include a bartender, an old, grizzled Tor Silver, a stalwart Legion Soldier, a random, havoc-wreaking raider, a petty criminal, a dungsweeper, a cotton picker, a farmer, and so on and so forth. Some of these roles require mild skill. Some don't. They all can paint pictures.
Flavor roles can lead much RP, and though plots for such characters can be thin, such is the sacrifice for reduced play times. I do not think that there is a solution for the problem of plot involvement. If you are a casual player, role with it, and focus instead on being the background. If you consider works of art, such as Norman Rockwell paintings, you will discover that the background is crucial to the whole of the piece.
Quote from: Comrade Canadia on August 11, 2009, 01:53:05 PMAnd now spawnloser implying that those who want casual play are just obsessed with high numbers and can't have fun without super-powered characters?
This isn't only dismissive, it's condescending. The game has NEVER been good for casual play, and it has been designed and driven by those who are able to play regularly and put serious amounts of time into their characters and staff roles.
That is
NOT what I'm implying. That's only your interpretation because of a bias you already have. What I am stating, straight-out, is that I believe that increasing skills is
NOT the answer for those that want to come up with a solution for the ennui/frustration that 'casual players' have. If someone feels that increasing starting skills is the answer, I suggest that such a person has a skewed opinion on what it is to 'win' at Armageddon. That is all.
I don't see any reason why ARM can't provide me, through my PC, with a sense of achievement and accomplishment, as a casual player. Lots of other games give me a sense of achievement and accomplishment when I can only play them an hour a day. And because I can feel like I'm getting something done in those games with that one hour, then those are the games I choose to play.
Example: I primarily use the Sims games to build immersive environments. Last night, I worked on a medieval townhouse in a village that I am crafting and I found several different ways that the architecture did NOT work. To an outsider, perhaps this looks like "no progress at all," but from my perspective I know that I took small steps toward a larger project--one that will likely take me at least two months RL to complete.
Another example: I play a browser game in which I can log on for twenty minutes and make some incremental progress in achieving my own goals. No one else who plays that game knows me or cares anything about me, and I'm never going to "win" it by being at the top top level; but none of that is the point. I play it simply because it gives me a little moment to use my strategy and wits and get a tiny little bit done. And I enjoy it, despite the fact that I will never "win" it.
And in both of those examples, I contribute something to the community, as well. I build houses and share them, I write tutorials on building techniques, I point people toward resources; or I quest and make money and provide a PvP target for other players. I am there, I interact through the game, and that's important and fun not just to me, but to other players as well.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 11, 2009, 03:01:57 PM
I don't see any reason why ARM can't provide me, through my PC, with a sense of achievement and accomplishment, as a casual player.
It can. What are the restrictions you see with particular role types?
Quote from: FantasyWriter on August 11, 2009, 03:18:29 PM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 11, 2009, 03:01:57 PM
I don't see any reason why ARM can't provide me, through my PC, with a sense of achievement and accomplishment, as a casual player.
It can. What are the restrictions you see with particular role types?
It's not about restrictions of particular role types. It's about the fact that getting anything done in ARM is an extremely time-consuming process not just in terms of sheer number of hours, but in number of
contiguous hours that are necessary. It's all been said in detail in this thread previously, please read back.
Fantasy Writer's List of Recommended "Casual" Roles
Inside/Social:
Town drunk - works a couple IC hours/IC day just enough to make the coin for that night's drink and food
A whore - male or female
Casual spy - barsitter, pick a guild with scan/listen and evesdrop in bars, selling information to interesting parties
A beggar - seriously, you can make a fortune as a beggar in this game
Greeber/hunter - spends most of his time peddling his materials to PCs and exchanging gossip
Warrior/bard - tells old war stories for food and drink (bonus points if he's missing a major body part)
Outdoors: (best with rangers and certain elemental guilds)
Explorer - explores for his own reasons
Scout - finds/see cool things and sells the information to city clans
Raider - Ranger/thug ftw with ranger/rebel coming a close second (recommended quarries: lone sid minders, salters, loggers)
Rounge magicker - skill up and develop you character alone for a while and choose an alignment later on
a) vigilante who seeks to protect others even though they hate him/don't want his help
b) raider/scary thing that goes bump in the night
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 11, 2009, 03:22:28 PM
It's not about restrictions of particular role types. It's about the fact that getting anything done in ARM is an extremely time-consuming process not just in terms of sheer number of hours, but in number of contiguous hours that are necessary. It's all been said in detail in this thread previously, please read back.
Incorrect, incorrect, incorrect. The more hours per day I play, the less my character accomplishes. The more plotlines I get involved in, the less interested I am in being involved in any of them.
Codewise and RPwise, my experience is that you can enjoy Arm with a dozen hours weekly, if you can devote -some- of those dozen hours to consistent times and days of the week. So, 4 hours every saturday with at least two of them spent between 8-10PM. Plus at least two hours weekly between 7+9, on either a wednesday or a thursday.
That's just a for instance. 3 hours on saturday, 3 every wednesday, both within a 6pm-midnite EST window.. is another example. That's what I mean by consistency. If you can do that much, then you can enjoy Armageddon as a casual player. If you can't do that much, then I feel you are asking for too much from the game, to accommodate an unrealistic player expectation.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 11, 2009, 03:22:28 PM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on August 11, 2009, 03:18:29 PM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 11, 2009, 03:01:57 PM
I don't see any reason why ARM can't provide me, through my PC, with a sense of achievement and accomplishment, as a casual player.
It can. What are the restrictions you see with particular role types?
It's not about restrictions of particular role types. It's about the fact that getting anything done in ARM is an extremely time-consuming process not just in terms of sheer number of hours, but in number of contiguous hours that are necessary. It's all been said in detail in this thread previously, please read back.
Gimf, what you are forgetting, though, is that every game you play where you feel you achieve something in minor time is not geared towards RP. Even if they are nominally, they are not
primarily geared towards RP. Because this game is, it must be kept in mind while devising manners in which to create a sense of casual time achievement. In many cases, RP and casual time achievement may not be placid partners.
I'm in a different situation, but I think there are some similarities. Anecdote!
Currently, I can't play sponsored roles. (This is a staff policy.)
I also don't have the time or the inclination to really play a leadership role. (This is Nyr honesty.)
I think this puts me in the "casual gamer" camp.
Sometimes, I do get a hankering to play. When I do, I aim for short-term goals that will satisfy me. None of these goals include being x sponsored role or y leadership role, but as mentioned above, I am not interested in that anyway and would do those roles a disservice. Do I enjoy them as much as goals that involve aspirations to take over the world? Well, not exactly, but these are realistic goals within the framework of the game, and I tend to enjoy it. I did have to change my expectations, and this also changed the concepts of the characters I created, sending me down paths that I never thought I'd be pursuing: flavor roles and PCs with minor involvement in the world.
I don't have any insight for players that have always played casually, and I don't know if this post will help those players that went from high playtimes to restricted playtimes. Each person looks at a problem in a different way. I just found a way to work within the limits I had, and learned to enjoy it.
Gimf, Staggerlee, et all, low timees. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from reading over this thread, it seems to me that you are all experiencing what feels like a lack of ability to accomplish anything in the game and there for have fun, due to the length of time needed to do so in the current Arm. environment, and your lack of available time to give,
It's my understanding that "accomplishing" anything and having "fun" has much to do with a person's personal goals. With this in mind, what sorts of things, specifically, are you all trying to accomplish when you're logged in with your characters? Are you looking to make a killing selling vestric feather hats to the fine citizens of Tuluk? Is your outdoorsie character looking to just enjoy a few drinks at the bar while in the city, catching up on specific gossip so as to better make his/her move when they decide to settle down in the walls? Are you looking to become a member of the Allanaki Militia, serve your Highlord and establish His laws with an Iron Fist and an open, bribe-accepting purse?
I admit to not being a low timee player, so I do not fully understand your difficulties, having no experience with them. I'm trying to understand, though, so as to better think of ways to alleviate your frustrations and facilitate enjoyment.
Some thoughts of my own towards this are:
1. An IG Town Crier/Message boy/girl system.
Sure, we have the message boards, but that's more for city-wide gossip and events that would easily reach your ears. With this system, I'm looking at a collection of individual NPCs put in public, high traffic places (outside popular taverns, in the town square, etc) that can be approached and, for the price of say, 5 'sid, told a specific message to be given to a specific person, should they come up and ask. All messages this way are kept for two RL days, unless payed extra for extra time, before being automatically deleted, and they hold a maximum of say 5 to 10 messages. Example:
Amos (the tall, muscular man) needs to get in touch with Talia (the tressy-tressed, buxom woman) about delivering some materials she ordered from him, some weeks ago. Talia's player is a low timee, so she isn't on often enough to get the many Way attempts that Amos has tried, but she's good for the interaction and money. So! Amos goes to the local town square and hits up one of the criers, which goes something like this:
A broad-shouldered town crier is here, taking and giving out messages.
>talk crier
A broad-shouldered town crier says, "Whatcha need?"
1) Any messages for me?
2) Keep a message for someone.
3) What's the latest word?
>1
A broad-shouldered town crier asks, "What's yer name?"
>Amos
A broad-shouldered town crier squints dubiously, looking you over.
A broad-shouldered town crier says "Nope, n'one's got anything to say to someone looking like you with yer name. Migh' try some of the other runners, near the Gaj or over by the Traders."
>Talk crier
A broad-shouldered town crier says, "Whatcha need?"
1) Any messages for me?
2) Keep a message for someone.
3) What's the latest word?
>3
A broad-shouldered town crier smiles cheerfully, saying "Lord Fancypants Fale's holding a party for the whole feckin' city in the Azure Dragon, in a few weeks time! Don' miss out! OOC: June 1st, at 8pm, EST."
Option 3, here, brought up one of a few messages that fill the parts of either general rumor (as barkeeps and other NPCs attempt to do, now) or specific ones they've been hired to shout out loud.
Should options 2 be picked, you'll be asked "Sure! Who ya want to pass it on to, an' what do they look like?". You can then enter an editor where you can input the name/nickname of the person you want to receive the message, then the message it's self. When done, you name the length of time you want the crier to keep the message, then pass over the needed amount of coin. All messages are geared towards the specific combination of short description and name, so if anyone asks for someone else's messages, they'll be turned away, and the message is echoed only to the one it's been left for. No eves dropping, sorry.
This way, if Talia logs in when Amos isn't around, or has a barrier up because he's Mud Sexxing that latest PC F-me (who's not her), she can stroll down town to check out the criers/runners and see if any message has been dropped off for her. She'll then find that Amos is looking for her, and she can either contact him personally, or leave another message, telling him where to drop the stuff off and an expect time to meet up with her for payment/mud sexxing/backstabbing for sleeping with that other F-me behind her back.
I envision that there would be say, three different Crier/Runners in a given spot. Say a town-crier, a grubby looking girl runner and a tired looking old man. Each is connected to their specific counter parts around the city, so that messages can be picked up from any number of locations. Maybe there's a wondering Crier that moves up and down Caravan's during specific times of the day, or a runner that switches between that bar in the 'rinth and just outside the Gaj, or another that hangs out outside some of the apartment complexes.
And what happens if there are TWO Talias in the game? What happens if you leave a message for the tall dark handsome man, and there are three of them. What if both Talias are the tressy-tressed woman? What happens if Talia the tressy-tressed woman is wearing a mask? What makes you think the NPC would recognize her to give her the message, if the NPC has never met her?
I think the best way to appreciate the notion of playing a casual gamer in Arm, is to not expect the same things as people with more time to play. This -also- means you have less of a chance that Joe Assassin will catch up to you and kill you...so you get benefits that you don't otherwise get too. The longer you're logged on for, the easier a target you become. AND, the more likely you are to -be- someone's target, because you've had more time to develop hostilities with people.
Edited some of my original post to include some things I hadn't added, at the start.
As for Lizzie's point about there being several "Talias" or "the tressy-tressed women" IG, well..I'm pretty sure there's an established code in the game that allows for something like this. How else does Nenyuk keep track of your account, when there's plenty of others out there who look like you and have your same name? If it's an aspect of the specific room the banks in, that looks at the player's account and character to get the specifics, well, why not have that same code, with the Criers/Runners?
And if not, well..Perhaps have the message taker refuse to take a message, if they've got one for someone that matches your name and short-desc, so as to not suffer this confusion. Maybe with a replay to "try one of the other runners", who would keep different messages. If this isn't feasible, hey, these guys deal with hundreds of people per week. Mistakes happen, when they meet so many that look alike.
Perhaps you could have a second call-name, for things like this? As I said, you leave a name or nickname to pass the message on to. Lots of PCs end up adding extra Keywords, to facilitate what people call them, that aren't their "true-names" from chara. gen. Pick one for messages. Say Talia has the nick of "Sexy" in her list of keywords, or it's a code word that's needed to be passed on, one worked out between her and Amos, in times past, in conjunction with her specific short-desc that let's the NPC dole out the saved message. That way, if a second, look alike Talia tries for the other Talia's messages, she'll be out of luck, since they're actually keyed towards someone with the password or name of "Sexy".
If you manage to have the same short-desc and get the information of what exactly is that other woman's "password", or what Amos told the crier to respond to, then kudos, you've taken a step forward in becoming a spy.
Quote from: Lizzie on August 11, 2009, 04:42:39 PM
And what happens if there are TWO Talias in the game? What happens if you leave a message for the tall dark handsome man, and there are three of them. What if both Talias are the tressy-tressed woman? What happens if Talia the tressy-tressed woman is wearing a mask? What makes you think the NPC would recognize her to give her the message, if the NPC has never met her?
I don't think that anyone is suggesting a fully-developed method for handling IC message-passing; instead, they seem to be tossing around loose models for how the concept might look in game. As such, I don't know that makes a lot of sense to spend time poking holes in swiss cheese. Are you against the
idea of an improved IC message-passing system? If so, why?
Quote from: Lizzie on August 11, 2009, 04:42:39 PM
I think the best way to appreciate the notion of playing a casual gamer in Arm, is to not expect the same things as people with more time to play. This -also- means you have less of a chance that Joe Assassin will catch up to you and kill you...so you get benefits that you don't otherwise get too. The longer you're logged on for, the easier a target you become. AND, the more likely you are to -be- someone's target, because you've had more time to develop hostilities with people.
I don't think people are saying they want the
same experience as people with more time, but that they feel there are ways they could enjoy this game more if certain changes were made. Granted, some of what needs to change is people's perception, but I think it's a bit short-sighted to write this off completely as
their burden to bear. There's room to grow in these areas that won't trivialize players who have more time to play, and I certainly think they can be worthwhile.
-LoD
Quote from: Pale Horse on August 11, 2009, 04:26:57 PMIt's my understanding that "accomplishing" anything and having "fun" has much to do with a person's personal goals. With this in mind, what sorts of things, specifically, are you all trying to accomplish when you're logged in with your characters? Are you looking to make a killing selling vestric feather hats to the fine citizens of Tuluk? Is your outdoorsie character looking to just enjoy a few drinks at the bar while in the city, catching up on specific gossip so as to better make his/her move when they decide to settle down in the walls? Are you looking to become a member of the Allanaki Militia, serve your Highlord and establish His laws with an Iron Fist and an open, bribe-accepting purse?
I play a variety of character types with a variety of different goals. Often I choose a role because I want to learn or experience some new aspect of the game; I take that OOC goal and turn it into one or more IC goals. So I have played a variety of non-sponsored PCs including bards, warriors, magickers, and crafters. What all roles have in common--not just my roles, but everyone's roles--are some core tasks that are central to any kind of achievement in the game. And it as the level of accomplishing these tasks that casual players feel pain.
As I mentioned in my first post on this thread, tasks include stuff like: Sending messages, completing transactions, skilling up, making money, meeting new people, and clan recruiting. Other people have mentioned other stuff. All of these tasks are very difficult to pursue effectively on one hour per day, due to a lot of different coded effects in the current game environment.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 11, 2009, 05:09:45 PM
As I mentioned in my first post on this thread, tasks include stuff like: Sending messages, completing transactions, skilling up, making money, meeting new people, and clan recruiting. Other people have mentioned other stuff. All of these tasks are very difficult to pursue effectively on one hour per day, due to a lot of different coded effects in the current game environment.
Just to recap, it seems that in answer to these problems, the following ideas have been suggested in the thread:
Sending messages, completing transactions (which can tie into making money): Having some kind of in game message/delivery service.
Skilling up: Letting people start with higher starting level skills, or gain skills slowly while off-line, or other variation.
Meeting new people: No real new ideas I think ... this one is basically impossible I think without being online to socialize.
Clan recruiting: Having a kind of message board for hiring outside large clan compounds, coupled with the message delivery service.
I think that the ideas offered in regards to the first and fourth problems would be welcome additions to the game, without making anyone feel slighted or cheated. But as for skilling up, I feel like letting people opt to have better than starting skills would just raise the bar across the game for what constituted "new" and "old" characters, and in the end, probably wouldn't solve a lot.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 11, 2009, 05:09:45 PM
As I mentioned in my first post on this thread, tasks include stuff like: Sending messages, completing transactions, skilling up, making money, meeting new people, and clan recruiting. Other people have mentioned other stuff. All of these tasks are very difficult to pursue effectively on one hour per day, due to a lot of different coded effects in the current game environment.
Thank you for responding to my question, and restating the specific difficulties you face.
Messages Addressing the first issue, messages, I just completed a suggestion, above, with the town crier idea.
Transactions Perhaps taking that a bit further, and saying that this service is provided by Nenyuk. They have their main bank for large and regular banking purposes, but let's say they have a large tent/stand set up in the middle of the city, where the "main" runners and criers hang out. Inside, they've got shelves and chests and what not set up behind a counter, with an NPC clerk. This NPC will accept small amounts of coin and several small items or a couple largish ones, to be stored for a number of RL days, in expectation of their intended recipient coming by and asking if anything has been dropped off for them. Same code for the messages used, for PC recognition, that the criers use. Leaving an item or amount of coin requires a certain extra payment (very affordable) for the initial storing, then a small amount for withdrawal and pick up.
Skilling up Personally, I'm a proponent of actually being IG to increase your skills. Work in, benefits out. I'll point towards the previous suggested "veteran" idea, though, as a viable and likable (for me) solution. I also wouldn't have any problems with those of higher karma being able to automatically create a some-what higher skilled new character..provided it was several levels lower than their highest karma options. No magickers with spells of doom from the get go, please.
As for making money, meeting new people and clan recruitment, I've few ideas or suggestions. Making money is feasible with the number of odd jobs IG, like 'sid hacking or cotton picking, etc. Having more is always a plus, but I'll leave specific ideas for other jobs, to others and another thread. Meeting new people, sadly, is one of those things where time put in=benefits, unless you happen to catch some consistent people who bar sit or log on during the same times you do, consistently, as I'm sure you've thought of already. Joining a clan would be my biggest suggestion, and then lobbying for your fellow players to assist you, if they are willing, in keeping in touch with things, despite being a member of low-visibility. Posts on the clan rumor thread about what's going on, or maybe some private messages back and forth between those players who's PCs are close with your own, describing what they might be doing together, when both are virtual. Life doesn't stop, when our characters aren't logged in. If this is done, please, please,
please send a copy of all correspondences of such a nature to your clan Staff, for review, to keep them in the loop, and for them to either point out problems that might arise from this idea, or to put a polite stop to it, if it's against game policy at the moment.
Clan recruitment..well, that's one of those where you'll either have to compromise your personal goals, if you just don't have the time to interact with the clan of your desire, or other, small clans that allow "auto-joining" and some soloing tasks could be implemented. A "Weavers Guild", where you can join with an NPC for 150 'sid, and be informed of the benefits of being part of this small organization. There's no guild hall or barracks, but there is an NPC that provides a few pieces of free or cheap linen and another who will take said linen and add it to a clan vault for use of the other PCs or for sale in the markets, and give back some coins by way of profit for a job done for the guild...kinda like how the tailoring and other small crafts thing is set up, in Red Storm. PCs can go to the guild NPC that stores things and buy the products of their guild mates for their own use. If no one buys, then the items eventually get sold virtually, through the code that's already in place for shop inventories. No buyers, no coin and no one in the guild profits. Guild leaders (sponsored low-timee roll or otherwise) can add more coin to the "paymaster" when they're logged in, or move some of the inventory themselves...
...looking over this idea, I just realized that I've described, basically, the clan system for Arm.2....Guess that shows just how much I like the idea, eh? Something as..facile..as described above (easy as I view it, anyway), I could see being in Arm.1, and maybe could alleviate some of the low timees woes, as well as add something for the high timees.
Y'all missed my suggestion for meeting new people, which was: Turn the bartender NPCs into general, site-specific rumor boards that anyone can post to. Then if Amos is looking for a job, he can post generally; or if Talia is looking for someone to sell her pebbles they're gathering, she can post generally. This is the kind of "meeting people" I mean--all those times where you want to meet an agent or a merchant or a bard or a grebber or a traveler or an explorer or a hunter or a crafter. Using the current game systems, it is often prohibitively difficult to make those connections given a limited number and contiguity of play hours.
Other than that, yeah, finding a new bed-buddy is going to be harder for a casual player. Personally, I can live with that.
Ah, while we may not have covered that in the last posts we made for summarizing, I believe it was covered in earlier posts. Boards outside of clan compounds, or perhaps an area of the marketplace where one could go to find work or offer their own services were some of the ideas offered up to assist in making connections with other PC's.
I should point out that I'm not particularly invested in any specific solutions to the problems of casual players. (Market board, bartender, board somewhere else, I really don't care as long as the solution correctly addresses the problem.) What concerns me is that we, as a community, should:
-- Develop an empathy for and understanding of the needs and desires of casual players
-- Change and enhance the game's systems somehow in order to respond to those needs and desires
-- Profit! Potentially, grow the game as a consequence
I'd like to post again in favour of an increased number of local boards (whether that be bartenders, boards outside clan compounds, etc. - the exact details don't bother me). Having recently played a merchanty PC that sold goods to other PCs, I know for certain that there were people out there that probably would have loved to order things from me, but simply couldn't, because our play times didn't match.
If PCs had had a way to get me a message, I could have easily made time in my day, regardless of their play times, to log in and catch them and take their orders and chat briefly. That means more fun, more plots, more RP, more trade/business, etc. So, I would see these increased means of communication as facilitating interaction between high and low play-times players. I'm sure that I'm not alone among players who (currently) have a flexible schedule and could easily pop in at certain times in order to help an off-peak or casual player. But as it stands, these people would have had a very difficult time reaching me otherwise.
Imagine someone posting "Amos is looking to buy some jozhal warmers. He's been loitering around the gate (3:00 PM EST weekdays) asking if any merchants are free to help him." Reply: "Merchant Poopypants has asked a guard to pass the word on to Amos that he'll be able to make a space in his busy tregil-grooming schedule to meet with him about the jozhal warmers. This will be in two weeks (Wed, Aug 13, 3:00 PM EST)."
Boom. What's not to like?
I would prefer that staff work on Arm.2 and current plots and issues, rather try to accomodate the
desires of a few players. Remember, this is a game and players choose how much time they put into
playing. When someone says "I can only play an hour a day or 6 hours a week? what they mean is
I choose to only play an hour a day. If your life is so full of fun, work, family, friends, other games, etc.,
Why does Armageddon have to change to make more fun for you in one hour of the day? Because
your casual playing enhances the overall feel of the game? It does not for me and there are planty of examples
of casual players now...think about it. Increase the number of casual players? I don't know how many more
casual players the game can handle without changing into something...er casual. Communicating without being
around? skill increases? automatic buying and selling? Pick you spots and fit in as you can, add something to the
current game atmosphere. If you aren't having fun, don't waste your hour a day here. if you are having fun,
than you have decisions to make in your own life about time management.
Cowboy, I don't know if you meant it as such, but suggesting that another player's contribution to the game does nothing to contribute to the feel of the game, sort of makes you seem like a rude teenager. On top of that, I find the statement flatly false.
The more players we have, casual or not, the more the feel of the game is enhanced. Talking about (hopefully) easily implemented ideas that would allow players with less time to play or who play during a different time to still interact with the rest of the playerbase is a good thing. I can't imagine why anyone would think that it's a bad thing.
When you say people "choose" to play the game for just an hour a day, you're right ... but it makes you sound really immature to me for saying it like that; like you're living with your parents and currently in school or somehing. I think it's akin to telling a working single mother struggling to hold down a job, pay tuition, and pass her classes that she's not a good friend because she "chooses" to forgo hanging out with you as much as you'd like. In a way ... yes you're right she's making choices, but in another way ... you're kind of an unempathetic jerk. :-\
I'm not trying to attack you or anything, just trying to let you know how the tone and meaning of your post came off to me, and possibly other people. We're all trying to enjoy the game, and I think that the suggestions folks have been offering are not so off the wall as to be dismissed out of hand. If someone says they can't enjoy the game unless dwarves have beards and steel scimitars are available at chargen ... then yes I'm with you in telling them that they need to change to fit the game.
But someone saying that they would enjoy the game more if there was a way for them to better interact with the rest of the players despite their limited online time; that sounds much more reasonable to me, and something that I think should be addressed.
Musashi..this isn't real life, this is a game. We all choose how much time we spend IG. No name calling please.
I'm not name calling, I'm letting you know that I think your opinion lacks depth, and that saying other players contribute nothing to the game for you is a rude, unthoughtful statement.
Quote from: Zoltan on August 11, 2009, 12:12:14 AM
You need to be involved to be involved. Rather than have blanket go-arounds for having a skilled, well-connected character from the get-go...
This....
If you can't play very often, find a role that will allow you to have fun anyway. Change the way that you play to accommodate your limitations. Don't expect the game to change to accommodate you.
Quote from: jcljules on August 11, 2009, 07:04:02 PM
If you can't play very often, find a role that will allow you to have fun anyway. Change the way that you play to accommodate your limitations. Don't expect the game to change to accommodate you.
Also, if you have to have a message board to be involved with a certain PC, you shouldn't be wasting theirs and your time when you could both be playing with people who have similar play times. For example if you want to join the Byn, but can NEVER run into even a runner, what good would being able to leve a message for a sergeant do if once hired, there was never anyone in the clan to interact with while you were on. You're better off doing something else.
Side note: There is a person who has been in the same clan as I have for almost six months. I saw them the day they got hired and that was it. I play 8-12 hours a day. Should the leader for said clan be expected to pay them for every month that they've been around even though they've only logged in four or five times in half a year?
Casual players who are kept interested and relevant are far more likely to:
> Continue contributing good word-of-mouth (i.e. free marketing) for the game.
> Introduce friends to the game.
> Be motivated to find ways to increase the amount of time they can play.
> Feel invested and connected with the game, thus more likely to keep playing.
> Help make the game world feel more "full" and "varied".
Casual players who struggle to keep interested or feel relevant are far more likely to contribute the following:
>
-LoD
Quote from: LoD on August 11, 2009, 07:09:03 PM
Casual players who are kept interested and relevant are far more likely to:
> Continue contributing good word-of-mouth (i.e. free marketing) for the game.
> Introduce friends to the game.
> Be motivated to find ways to increase the amount of time they can play.
> Feel invested and connected with the game, thus more likely to keep playing.
> Help make the game world feel more "full" and "varied".
Casual players who struggle to keep interested or feel relevant are far more likely to contribute the following:
>
-LoD
I think you both have good points--there's no need to call someone an unempathetic jerk, rude, and unthoughtful for stating a valid point. Time management is an important part of every person's life, and not everyone is a casual player.
However, we can also look at other options for casual players.
Musashi..has every player you have interacted with, in the game, contributed to your gaming experience? Not been that way for me. Players that show up for a few hours a RL week do not add anything to the game for me. I can't RP (this is an Rp game) with them if they are not around, I am frustrated because I want to help them, they aren't around for this or that, players come and go and never know them....As has been stated, the player needs to make the best of their situation. I simply don't believe that the game needs to change to fit each individual playing choices. So, where do you draw the line with this? Technically speaking, how many hours of play, per week, makes a player a casual player? Less then ten? less the five? and if a casual player can play 25 hours some weeks, do they give up their skill increases? or will you move from casual player to "real' player = one that chooses to spend more time IG? Will there be a defintion and a flag for the type of player you are? No, just leave it be. and to Lod...some casual players might do some of those things.
Sorry if my post came off as attacking you, that was not the intention.
I'm personally not in favor of skill increases for anyone aside from special-app characters, as is the current way of doing things. So I don't really have anything to contribute to that aspect of the thread beyond: I'm in favor of keeping skill gaining the way it is now.
But I do feel that by providing ways for low playtime, or off-peak playtimes players to get messages and services delivered, and perhaps even clan recruiting done ... we could free up some of those low playtime folk's time so that they would have more time to: Skill gain like the rest of us, and roleplay with other people.
I don't think that just because my interaction with a player in the game wasn't signifigant, that the player's contribution to the game at large must likewise, not be signifigant. That's the point I wanted to put to you.
Unless you do not let yourself be impacted by anyone else's plots or plans, I would say it would be incredibly hard not to be impacted by a casual player. This doesn't mean they need to be your significant other IG, but plots are often tangled webs. Even if you are not directly impacted by a casual player, other people most likely have been, and to the extent they influence your character...your character is being indirectly influenced by a casual player. I've been impacted in less than five minutes of RP with other people...RP doesn't need to be sustained to be valuable.
Unique account logins vary between 200-300 or so per week? I can't remember the number of accounts there are, but quite a bit larger than this. If you compared the 200-300 unique logins vs the number off accounts with a character logged into in the last 3-6 months, my guess would be that there are quite a few casual players. I find it hard to believe no one would ever be impacted by any of them.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on August 11, 2009, 07:02:02 PM
Quote from: Zoltan on August 11, 2009, 12:12:14 AM
You need to be involved to be involved. Rather than have blanket go-arounds for having a skilled, well-connected character from the get-go...
This....
This again.
Games will always be dominated by those who have the most time to put into them.
However, I'd support a few simpler things to ease player communications. The boards, rumours etc.
Quote from: musashi on August 11, 2009, 07:25:26 PM
But I do feel that by providing ways for low playtime, or off-peak playtimes players to get messages and services delivered, and perhaps even clan recruiting done ... we could free up some of those low playtime folk's time so that they would have more time to: Skill gain like the rest of us, and roleplay with other people.
What would you hope to gain by joining a clan in which you couldn't interact with other PCs enough to even get hired after a RL week?
Quote from: FantasyWriter on August 11, 2009, 07:55:05 PM
Quote from: musashi on August 11, 2009, 07:25:26 PM
But I do feel that by providing ways for low playtime, or off-peak playtimes players to get messages and services delivered, and perhaps even clan recruiting done ... we could free up some of those low playtime folk's time so that they would have more time to: Skill gain like the rest of us, and roleplay with other people.
What would you hope to gain by joining a clan in which you couldn't interact with other PCs enough to even get hired after a RL week?
I wrote a really long post about that at the tail end of page 3 in this thread. In it I was talking about the different ways in which an off-peak/low play time character could make a difference in their clan, if we had the aforeentioned messages and services type things implemented.
Quote from: jcljules on August 11, 2009, 07:04:02 PM
If you can't play very often, find a role that will allow you to have fun anyway. Change the way that you play to accommodate your limitations. Don't expect the game to change to accommodate you.
Time management. Productivity. Efficiency. Adjustment of expectations. Are hard to achieve.
Before: 1 playing day a week
Now : 1 playing day 2 months
Result : Unless I can log on frequently and hit 10 hours a week at least, I don't play arm. So every year, there are half of the months where I go play other games.
Reason: Time management and picking the right roles for the time frame are all nice things to
say. But I might not necessarily know what those roles involve, or what roles would suit me, or what roles I would enjoy.
Below are just personal opinions:
Lone grebber: I've never mined or cut trees or whatever for a living. I don't consider it fun. I'd rather go chew on my hand than play one.
D-elf: If I like solo play, it would be perfect. But I hate solo play unless it is to rp and enjoy the aftermath of something major to my character.
Comic relief: It was fun the first time. The second time. The.... then after a while, I might have had a bad hair day, and thoughts like this pops up: most people are so boring. They kept sitting there and waiting for me to entertain them. Why can't they do something interesting for me once?
Clanned chars: Last week I met 10 pcs. This week, 0.5 of them is alive. (9 dead, 1 became inactive)
Unclanned chars: What is there to do apart from meeting new faces constantly in the tavern? Life is like watching a character generator displaying result.
Mages: It's like rping d-elf but instead of super combat, they get magic. Sure, mentality is different and blah blah. If I like solo play, I would... but what is the point of playing an on-line interactive game now?
Whore/drunk: (someone mentioned it before) Have you ever rped a drunk? I have. A whore? I have. Please see above on Comic Relief. Same with beggar.
Bard/spy: I think people would rather kill me irl than listening to me playing a radio station in the game. As for spy, information is like vegetables, only good when fresh. Unless I am doing people study. In which case, by the time I can submit the findings to the employer, they have already had the person assassinated/bribed/whatever. I suppose I could rp the most inefficient spy in the world.
Explorer: I am always interested in watching people trying to explore with newbie resource. I'm researching the top 10 PC killers the other day. The top three is X-D, Templars, Scrabs, maybe random exploration can be a fourth.
Scout: Have you ever even played an outdoor scout? Yes. So much cool things out there! I bet I can be the pc #100000 to have find that cool thing everyone saw around 5 years ago.
Raiders: To play a good raider takes a lot of work. A casual time raider is... hard. Let's just stop here.
.......
What else? So my point being, it would be nice if there is some kind of assistance, advices, like the local council helping people finding new jobs. Only, you are helping me/provide assistance for me to find and enjoy a new role.
Quote from: Lizzie on August 11, 2009, 04:42:39 PM
And what happens if there are TWO Talias in the game? What happens if you leave a message for the tall dark handsome man, and there are three of them. What if both Talias are the tressy-tressed woman? What happens if Talia the tressy-tressed woman is wearing a mask? What makes you think the NPC would recognize her to give her the message, if the NPC has never met her?
> deliver talia.tall.dark.handsome
If you match all keywords supplied, even if the message wasn't intended for you, you get the message. It should all be charged to the sender, however.
Quote from: Zoltan on August 11, 2009, 12:12:14 AM
The problem I see the most when I cut back on my playtimes (and mind you, I'm certainly not "hardcore", I maybe average a little more than two hours a day, if no RPTs are going on) is the general disconnect from other PCs.
Same here, and as others have said, code changes may have little effect on that. The core problem seems to be in the disconnect, and the feeling that the plots and events are passing you by.
The veteran idea is interesting, but I wonder (a) how much that would actually fix anything, and (b) whether that might be something better off done via special apps.
I agree with Lizzie about the benefits of playing
consistently even if you're not playing a lot of hours. If you're around in some kind of predictable fashion, that goes a long way.
I've said this before, but a clan forum can be a casual player's best friend. Post your playtimes, or post when you're going to be gone for a month. If your clanmates know when to expect to see you, they're probably be quicker to invest time into getting your character involved.
It's all a difficult issue, and I feel for the people who want to have more fun on limited playtimes. Although I don't typically fall into the "casual player" category, I do at times, and I've felt that frustration before.
Lastly, I'll say I'd love to see a player guide written on suggestions for casual players, and also for getting casual players involved.
Quote from: Melody on August 11, 2009, 09:00:36 PM
Quote from: jcljules on August 11, 2009, 07:04:02 PM
If you can't play very often, find a role that will allow you to have fun anyway. Change the way that you play to accommodate your limitations. Don't expect the game to change to accommodate you.
Time management. Productivity. Efficiency. Adjustment of expectations. Are hard to achieve.
Before: 1 playing day a week
Now : 1 playing day 2 months
Result : Unless I can log on frequently and hit 10 hours a week at least, I don't play arm. So every year, there are half of the months where I go play other games.
Reason: Time management and picking the right roles for the time frame are all nice things to say. But I might not necessarily know what those roles involve, or what roles would suit me, or what roles I would enjoy.
This is the heart of the matter. A lot of players, experienced or otherwise are turning away from the game due to the massive time requirements. Some exceptional people make the game work with only a few hours a week, but they are the exception. Expecting those people to find ways to make the game work for them is fine, but nobody should be surprised if they just turn away.
I'm looking at this as a problem to be solved more than anything. If the player base and staff want a healthy, growing community than I would imagine that making the game accessible to players would be a good idea. Especially if that can be done without sacrificing any of what makes the game great.
The question on the table is "How could the game accommodate more players?" I'm not sure how that's raising so much hostility. If you don't like the individual solutions, fine, but that's another story. On the same note, don't gripe too much about how individual proposals work out, none of them are anywhere near implemented and in the end it's up to the staff to decide how and when to make those work.
As someone that doesn't play games anymore (except for money! teehee!) I'm not horribly vested in the results of the discussion or the decisions made here. However... I'd really like to see the game and its community grow and move in a positive, exciting direction. I don't see how anyone could be opposed to that. Keep in mind that this is an opportunity for people who do play the game, more than for people who don't. There's a lot of other things in the world for those who don't play it to do with their time. ;) This thread really seems to be getting really dichotomized and oppositional, and I have no idea why.
Quote from: staggerlee on August 11, 2009, 10:05:41 PM
This thread really seems to be getting really dichotomized and oppositional, and I have no idea why.
I think the topic of skill advancement is really at the core of it. Seems like the folks who don't want to entertain the idea of any changes keep picking that one out of the bunch.
I don't care for the idea of changing that much myself. Quite possible that "more time played = more codedly powerful character" is just deeply ingrained in a large portion of the playerbase, and perhaps righty so.
Quote from: staggerlee on August 11, 2009, 10:05:41 PM
This thread really seems to be getting really dichotomized and oppositional, and I have no idea why.
I think part of it is that the change is requested by those people not really "into" the game right now, whereas the people having a great time don't see the need. I think that could be a perceived dichotomy in this thread.
Armageddon is and always has been a game that caters to people that can play more, not less. This is Crackageddon. The good book that keeps evolving, and is very, very hard to put down once you get wrapped up in it. I sympathize with the "low playing-time" players, 'cause I find myself there often, but it's pretty unreasonable to suddenly expect the game to change just because you can no longer play it like you used to.
A lot of the proposed suggestions to "fix" the problem, like in-game messaging systems, skill bumps, and auto-clanning would dilute the experience for the rest of the playerbase, so it's not surprising that some people are strongly against such ideas. The game is based on interactions between players that share an experience, and if you can't be around for that, you won't get as much back. That's just the nature of the game. Trying to wedge your way back in through coded tweaks will just frustrate other players, and no experienced-player-brain-drain arguments will justify that. Plenty of experienced players get jaded and quit after a favorite character dies, but nobody is arguing to change permadeath, are they?
Quote from: flurry on August 11, 2009, 09:50:45 PM
Lastly, I'll say I'd love to see a player guide written on suggestions for casual players, and also for getting casual players involved.
This is the best suggestion I've seen. Leave the Armageddon experience alone for those people that can play moderately to frequently, and sort out amongst yourselves the best roles, character types and personal moderation needed to fit Armageddon into your busy schedule.
Can you give an example of how an in game message delivery mechinism would dilute the "experience" of Armageddon? Or a board outside of a clan compound for hiring/work purposes?
Quote from: musashi on August 12, 2009, 12:51:29 AM
Can you give an example of how an in game message delivery mechinism would dilute the "experience" of Armageddon? Or a board outside of a clan compound for hiring/work purposes?
Because it wouldn't just be a crutch for casual gamers. It would be an easy way out of PC-to-PC communication for even the "hardcore" players. That's not to say that people want to -avoid- PC-to-PC interaction, it's just that it'd be so much -easier-. For example, I almost -always- go to a vendor NPC for equipment/goodies, because it's so much easier than going through PCs. That means my characters tend to have pretty vanilla EQ lists (at first; my characters tend to be the heirs of some cool gear because they live a while, but yeah, not the point :P).
I play a moderate amount of time each week, I suppose. If I could just conveniently send IG messages to everyone I have the slightest, tiniest bit of trouble finding, I'd probably do it. And I think I'd probably lose some of that 'geddony magick because of it.
Anyone who feels that a bump in their skills will suddenly make their "fun" in the game better, seems to me someone who wants an advantage over other people. For quite some time, I was a hardcore player. Now I'm lucky to get 2 hours a day. The only times I've thought of storing or flaming the boards is when I really hated my leadership PCs, and only because I'm a dick and think I will inherit the world.
I -really- feel for the casual players without a lot of time, but only the "messenger" style ideas are ones I would suggest pursuing, and as Zoltan said, I would use them even if the other person IS online. Its much easier.
Currently, I'd only voice support for a slightly more liberal form of the rumours board, including people who might be looking for work in certain areas. Of course, we'd need to create and IG career counselling office to facilitate this, because what reasonable IG bartender wants to remember all this junk. It's just not realistic.
This is only because I'm a social-justice-concerned, ethically considerate, prudent conservative.
Quote from: Riev on August 12, 2009, 02:27:52 AM
Anyone who feels that a bump in their skills will suddenly make their "fun" in the game better, seems to me someone who wants an advantage over other people.
Riev, this is not a personal attack on you and I'm not trying to phrase it that way, but this is a bit condescending. If anything, people who are asking for this option are wanting to find themselves at a slightly less painful
disadvantage.
It has nothing to do with a skilled character being more "fun." It's about wanting to maximise the fun of the time they play.
I think a lot of casual players feel like they have to choose between furthering their skills or hanging out and RPing with other characters. If they had the ability to start a PC with even slightly-higher-than-newbie-level skills, they could hang out in taverns trying to woo that pretty maiden/make contacts for a project of their PC's/get in touch with that Salarri Agent offering work without having to suddenly worry about their PC's ability to make a living a few days later because they're out of newbie coins.
It sucks, but I believe the way Armageddon is currently structured, it definitely encourages the first few days of any character--especially independents--to be a powergaming skillgain-fest so that a PC can sustain themselves when the newb loot runs out.
I'd like to note that I know this isn't true in all circumstances and that it is definitely possible for most guilds--if not easy for some--to survive and make money from very early on. However, I'd like people reading this to keep in mind that
not all players know all the tricks you do. Not many newbs know the location of bushes and trees and pools where you can get free food and water. Few semi-vet players or veteran players might know that if you forage a handful of sparkly alabaster triangles near Tuluk, you can sell them for mad loot in Luir's.
I really appreciate the last few 'jobs' the imms have put into the game such as cotton picking and dung sweeping, because it provides at least a minimal safety net for players who choose to spend their newbie time socialising and roleplaying with others rather than solo hunting or trying to beef up their starting skills.
I don't care to speak to the other topics mentioned in this thread at this time, but I do think that skills could be more "casual-friendly". I mean this not only with regards to players that have a limited amount of time to enjoy the game, but also with regards to players who simply spend less time "skilling" and more time, well, role-playing.
DISCLAIMER: The following is based off of several theoretical assumptions, and may be completely incorrect. Feel free to steer me straight on any of the below points.Regardless of how the current underpinnings of the skill advancement system actually works, the general perception seems to be that your character is going to suck for a long time, and then eventually advance faster after having become at least mediocre at a skill. In other words, while it can be hard as hell to learn how to bake your first travel cake, once you have the hang of it, you can (theoretically) be frying up spiced erdlu wings like an Iron Chef within an in-game week. Graphically represented, I imagine the current skill advancement curve to look something like this:
(http://www.gouletonline.com/armageddon/images/gdb/graph_1.gif)
I think that this is ultimately the result of characters benefiting from a greater skill gain when performing an action
successfully rather than by
failing. I'll leave the debate as to whether or not this is realistic to less tired minds, but, ultimately, this results in a slow learning curve for new characters, followed by greater gains as the character becomes more successful at his or her skills.
The end result? New characters seem to face far greater obstacles just to become "productive citizens of society", whilst players with more time to dedicate to "skilling" can become masters of their chosen profession(s) with little effort (relatively speaking). This seems to penalize casual players, and perhaps even encourages some to adopt skill-oriented mindset, which we typically don't encourage.
I propose something more like this:
(http://www.gouletonline.com/armageddon/images/gdb/graph_2.gif)
This chart is essentially the same as above, only instead, characters are given a greater skill gain when
failing at a skill rather than
succeeding at it. As a result, new characters advance more quickly to the "mediocre" skill range, resulting in less overall frustration for the player, while those who have more time to dedicate to their characters still have the advantage of reaching greater heights, albeit with more of a challenge than before.
Effectively, the taper of the learning curve for skills would simply be altered to better suit new characters/casual players, without penalizing our beloved hardcore crowd too much.
I think there may be another solution to this. The game could create new roles that are geared towards social rather than coded skills. These roles can be aimed at enhancing existing plots or rp.
For example, and these are just examples with flaws, I'm sure staffs or others can think up better ones:
- Nenyuk clerks. Each clerk has ONE house they can rent out to pcs or independent organizations. The rents are paid at the bank, the clerk can collect the rent there minus a cut for the house. We all know that pcs die often, so the clerk can keep busy by finding new people to live at the house, clean out house, and so on. Indie people can get something special. Bonus.
- Sath Nobles. The nobles record history. So they might want to keep track on who is who and where is where. Their job is to record, and record they will. Missed all the plots until it is done? No problem, you can record it and read these bed times stories to others later on. PCs will never get forgotten totally and people can get a warm feeling inside whenever they hear their old dead pcs.
- Bartenders that belong to some sekrit research organization. They serve drinks. But that is boring. They also listen on who is hanging with who. They spot relationships and so on and then feed the information in a report to the boss, where the spy master/mistress can do whatever. No one would believe that silky Kadius is in alliance with that rinth rat until you spot them getting drunk together!
- So on. I'm tired with examples.
So the key point here is that the role created would be tailored made for casual players with min. coded skills.
To Goulet: I um ... I thought Armageddon was coded already in such a way that failing a skill is how you gain in it ??? I could have sworn I read that somewhere, like in a helpfile.
To Zoltan: It seems to me like you just said "It would decrease PC's interacting with one another, for example I go to the NPC vendors because they're easier to buy from than PC vendors. So having a way to more easily contact PC vendors would mean I would interact with PC's even less." It leaves me going ???
Wouldn't buying from a PC vendor via the aforementioned message/delivery mechanism be PC interaction, as opposed to interating with an NPC only? It isn't face to face interaction granted, but it's still something that allows a PC to seek out another PC to fill a given need rather than going to an NPC for it. So, wouldn't an ability like that increase the interaction between players, instead of decreasing it?
I don't personally buy into the idea that folks would use that service exclusively and never bother trying to find anyone in person ever again. Imagine if said service cost even 1 small for every message ... what would you rather spend? 100 coins? Or 15 stun trying a contact first?
Quote from: Aaron Goulet on August 12, 2009, 03:23:51 AM
(http://www.gouletonline.com/armageddon/images/gdb/graph_2.gif)
By the by, I believe this graph is at least fancifully correct...if you substitute days for hours. ;)
Quote from: Zoltan on August 12, 2009, 01:37:47 AM
Because it wouldn't just be a crutch for casual gamers. It would be an easy way out of PC-to-PC communication for even the "hardcore" players. That's not to say that people want to -avoid- PC-to-PC interaction, it's just that it'd be so much -easier-. For example, I almost -always- go to a vendor NPC for equipment/goodies, because it's so much easier than going through PCs. That means my characters tend to have pretty vanilla EQ lists (at first; my characters tend to be the heirs of some cool gear because they live a while, but yeah, not the point :P).
So, being able to set up a meeting with a PC merchant would lead to an even more vanilla EQ list? I'm confused. Seems like this might be a concern that people would just make entire orders through the boards instead of talking face to face? There could easily be a rule that PCs have to try to set up a meeting first before resorting to this. Even then, at least one meeting (to exchange the items) will have to take place. But most orders require some back and forth question/answers, so I don't really think this would be a problem. Let's not argue against broad solutions based on small details that can be ironed out if/when said solutions are implemented. If message boards that facilitate PC meetings and clan recruitment dilute your RP experience, I'm at a loss.
If considering various options for allowing well-respected members of our community like Gimf and Staggerlee, etc., to continue contributing to the game somehow threatens anyone's play experience, I'm equally baffled. I don't think any of these players are wanting free epics and they certainly don't think they should get a free pass into a l33t, 40-man raid. The purples are safe.
I do mind the idea of making life easier for players who cannot play often for messages, perhaps making coin ect.
But I do not think Player A should get better at skills while offline. Alot of skills require a certain risk: backstab, steal, picklock ect... If you could just skill these up without any danger involved, then I think that is a bad idea.
Otherwise, anything to help functionality and playability sounds great.
Quote from: musashi on August 12, 2009, 03:55:28 AM
Wouldn't buying from a PC vendor via the aforementioned message/delivery mechanism be PC interaction, as opposed to interating with an NPC only? It isn't face to face interaction granted, but it's still something that allows a PC to seek out another PC to fill a given need rather than going to an NPC for it. So, wouldn't an ability like that increase the interaction between players, instead of decreasing it?
I don't personally buy into the idea that folks would use that service exclusively and never bother trying to find anyone in person ever again. Imagine if said service cost even 1 small for every message ... what would you rather spend? 100 coins? Or 15 stun trying a contact first?
No, that NPC messaging system would be as much PC interaction as me sending you a PM to log in at such-and-such a time, or that I accomplished such-and-such during last night's play. Sure, things are affected ICly, then, but it's sterile. I suppose it's a solution to the age-old "I can never fucking find this guy" problem. I don't have any solutions to offer up, myself.
I never said that people would use these NPCs exclusively. It's just the moment that it gets a little difficult to find someone, bloop, there you go with the NPC. It also makes me feel weird that I'd have to check up on these NPCs all the time, especially if I was playing a leadership role. It's like, "hum hum, diddity-do, lemme check my mailbox here". No, this is Arm: send my character a letter (assuming they can read) or pass the message through subordinates/acquaintances who all have a chance at screwing it up or fucking me over. This is just a personal opinion, and yes, I know it doesn't really alleviate the problems casual gamers see.
Quote from: Thunkkin on August 12, 2009, 07:36:30 AM
Quote from: Zoltan on August 12, 2009, 01:37:47 AM
Because it wouldn't just be a crutch for casual gamers. It would be an easy way out of PC-to-PC communication for even the "hardcore" players. That's not to say that people want to -avoid- PC-to-PC interaction, it's just that it'd be so much -easier-. For example, I almost -always- go to a vendor NPC for equipment/goodies, because it's so much easier than going through PCs. That means my characters tend to have pretty vanilla EQ lists (at first; my characters tend to be the heirs of some cool gear because they live a while, but yeah, not the point :P).
So, being able to set up a meeting with a PC merchant would lead to an even more vanilla EQ list? I'm confused. Seems like this might be a concern that people would just make entire orders through the boards instead of talking face to face? There could easily be a rule that PCs have to try to set up a meeting first before resorting to this. Even then, at least one meeting (to exchange the items) will have to take place. But most orders require some back and forth question/answers, so I don't really think this would be a problem. Let's not argue against broad solutions based on small details that can be ironed out if/when said solutions are implemented. If message boards that facilitate PC meetings and clan recruitment dilute your RP experience, I'm at a loss.
If considering various options for allowing well-respected members of our community like Gimf and Staggerlee, etc., to continue contributing to the game somehow threatens anyone's play experience, I'm equally baffled. I don't think any of these players are wanting free epics and they certainly don't think they should get a free pass into a l33t, 40-man raid. The purples are safe.
My main concern is with the means proposed for the flow of other information. I guess I'm just having knee-jerk reactions against more OOC constructs and automatic stuff put in. The thing is, as a player having a fantastic (though sometimes frustrated by restricted playtimes) playing experience, I'm finding myself unsympathetic to those that aren't. I don't see big problems where others do. When stuff like these proposals come up, I just can't help but see the negative, because I just don't see a whole lot of room for improvement in these aspects.
Quote from: Melody on August 12, 2009, 03:46:04 AM
I think there may be another solution to this. The game could create new roles that are geared towards social rather than coded skills. These roles can be aimed at enhancing existing plots or rp.
For example, and these are just examples with flaws, I'm sure staffs or others can think up better ones:
- Nenyuk clerks. Each clerk has ONE house they can rent out to pcs or independent organizations. The rents are paid at the bank, the clerk can collect the rent there minus a cut for the house. We all know that pcs die often, so the clerk can keep busy by finding new people to live at the house, clean out house, and so on. Indie people can get something special. Bonus.
- Sath Nobles. The nobles record history. So they might want to keep track on who is who and where is where. Their job is to record, and record they will. Missed all the plots until it is done? No problem, you can record it and read these bed times stories to others later on. PCs will never get forgotten totally and people can get a warm feeling inside whenever they hear their old dead pcs.
- Bartenders that belong to some sekrit research organization. They serve drinks. But that is boring. They also listen on who is hanging with who. They spot relationships and so on and then feed the information in a report to the boss, where the spy master/mistress can do whatever. No one would believe that silky Kadius is in alliance with that rinth rat until you spot them getting drunk together!
- So on. I'm tired with examples.
So the key point here is that the role created would be tailored made for casual players with min. coded skills.
I lean toward this sort of solution much more than the rather contentious idea of skill bumps.
*And steeper diminishing returns for all! Muhaha.
I like Melody's special roles idea more than skill bumps as well. Skill bumps will just piss off the playerbase. Roles like these also seem easier to implement.
That said, I think that should arm 2 come about, changing the way skills are increased would definitely help casual play and the overall game experience. High skill increases for less time spent with steeper diminishing returns. Get rid of the hours spent powergaming and let people actually roleplay, instead of faking it while skill-spamming. Endless powergamey repetition is best left to games like world of warcraft, which do it much better.
Quote from: Comrade Canadia on August 12, 2009, 11:55:04 AM
I like Melody's special roles idea more than skill bumps as well. Skill bumps will just piss off the playerbase. Roles like these also seem easier to implement.
I like them better as well.
Quote from: Comrade Canadia on August 12, 2009, 11:55:04 AM
That said, I think that should arm 2 come about, changing the way skills are increased would definitely help casual play and the overall game experience. High skill increases for less time spent with steeper diminishing returns. Get rid of the hours spent powergaming and let people actually roleplay, instead of faking it while skill-spamming. Endless powergamey repetition is best left to games like world of warcraft, which do it much better.
The notion that the skill grind serves only as a time sink and is somehow an obstacle to RP seems somewhat short-sighted to me. It's like saying, "Let's skip the rehearsals and go straight for the performance." There are several ancillary benefits that come along with the process of improving one's skills:
> The process allows players to be seen performing their related jobs, both by obvious and hidden observers alike. This visibility is often paramount for ingratiating one's character into the flow of the game.
> A slower development cycle basically ensures that you will have characters at various levels of progression at any given time, simply because time is required to build up these skills and people begin characters at different times. Increase the speed of the cycle and you run the risk of eliminating much of the middle-ground, which lessens the depth and makes things less interesting. If you don't think that's important, feel free to visit a Harry Potter premiere event 5 minutes before the movie and cut in line. I imagine it won't sit well with the other people who have spent a considerable amount of time getting to where they are and value their position.
> The process of developing skills also builds a sense of investment in the character, discouraging acts of recklessness or random violence for their own sakes. People are more likely to value their character and, thus, act more realistically in the face of danger compared to a system where they know it will only take them a few days to get back to where they were.
I realize there is a camp that feel skills are a necessary evil to portraying a role, and generally consider building up skills as a nuisance and an obstacle to being able to play "the role they want". However, I feel there are a many benefits generated by the current development cycle and would be loathe to throw that away. More people should consider the skill grind as -part- of their character development and work it into their daily routines instead of trying to figure out ways to avoid or circumvent it. My most successful character had scan, listen, haggle, pilot, ride, and value. Skills are not necessary for having fun, being successful, or achieving things.
If you know you're one of those people that hates the skill grind, I suggest you manage your expectations and select roles that don't depend so readily upon coded skills in order to be successful, such as performers, quartermasters, servants, artists, beggars, hawkers, merchants, aides, laborers, informants, spies, recruiters, scholars, and such. I think that suggestions like Fathi's and Melody's are the right way to go in terms of offering alternative roles to casual players.
-LoD
Quote from: LoD on August 12, 2009, 12:20:02 PM
I realize there is a camp that feel skills are a necessary evil to portraying a role, and generally consider building up skills as a nuisance and an obstacle to being able to play "the role they want". However, I feel there are a many benefits generated by the current development cycle and would be loathe to throw that away. More people should consider the skill grind as -part- of their character development and work it into their daily routines instead of trying to figure out ways to avoid or circumvent it. My most successful character had scan, listen, haggle, pilot, ride, and value. Skills are not necessary for having fun, being successful, or achieving things.
You know what I hate about this sentiment here, LoD? It's the implication that those of us who don't enjoy the skill grind are deficient somehow. But hey, guess what, I'm not deficient, or immature, or a powergamer, nor do I want an "easier" game, nor do I want to get an "unfair advantage" over other players.
This general attitude amongst the playerbase, quite honestly, makes me wonder why I bother trying. For once, I would just like to have it assumed that I (and other players who want changes) have the
best interests of the whole game and all its players at heart.
Also, IMO, citing Khann as your most successful/fun PC etc is disingenuous in a discussion of this type; AFAIK, you played him in the range of 10 or so years ago, a time when I assume you had many fewer adult responsibilities and played a lot more hours overall. You weren't a casual player at the time and he wasn't a casually-played PC; there is little relevant comparison.
Quote from: LoD on August 12, 2009, 12:20:02 PM
Quote from: Comrade Canadia on August 12, 2009, 11:55:04 AM
I like Melody's special roles idea more than skill bumps as well. Skill bumps will just piss off the playerbase. Roles like these also seem easier to implement.
I like them better as well.
Quote from: Comrade Canadia on August 12, 2009, 11:55:04 AM
That said, I think that should arm 2 come about, changing the way skills are increased would definitely help casual play and the overall game experience. High skill increases for less time spent with steeper diminishing returns. Get rid of the hours spent powergaming and let people actually roleplay, instead of faking it while skill-spamming. Endless powergamey repetition is best left to games like world of warcraft, which do it much better.
The notion that the skill grind serves only as a time sink and is somehow an obstacle to RP seems somewhat short-sighted to me. It's like saying, "Let's skip the rehearsals and go straight for the performance." There are several ancillary benefits that come along with the process of improving one's skills:
> The process allows players to be seen performing their related jobs, both by obvious and hidden observers alike. This visibility is often paramount for ingratiating one's character into the flow of the game.
> A slower development cycle basically ensures that you will have characters at various levels of progression at any given time, simply because time is required to build up these skills and people begin characters at different times. Increase the speed of the cycle and you run the risk of eliminating much of the middle-ground, which lessens the depth and makes things less interesting. If you don't think that's important, feel free to visit a Harry Potter premiere event 5 minutes before the movie and cut in line. I imagine it won't sit well with the other people who have spent a considerable amount of time getting to where they are and value their position.
> The process of developing skills also builds a sense of investment in the character, discouraging acts of recklessness or random violence for their own sakes. People are more likely to value their character and, thus, act more realistically in the face of danger compared to a system where they know it will only take them a few days to get back to where they were.
I realize there is a camp that feel skills are a necessary evil to portraying a role, and generally consider building up skills as a nuisance and an obstacle to being able to play "the role they want". However, I feel there are a many benefits generated by the current development cycle and would be loathe to throw that away. More people should consider the skill grind as -part- of their character development and work it into their daily routines instead of trying to figure out ways to avoid or circumvent it. My most successful character had scan, listen, haggle, pilot, ride, and value. Skills are not necessary for having fun, being successful, or achieving things.
If you know you're one of those people that hates the skill grind, I suggest you manage your expectations and select roles that don't depend so readily upon coded skills in order to be successful, such as performers, quartermasters, servants, artists, beggars, hawkers, merchants, aides, laborers, informants, spies, recruiters, scholars, and such. I think that suggestions like Fathi's and Melody's are the right way to go in terms of offering alternative roles to casual players.
-LoD
Steep diminishing returns seem to satisfy all concerns listed by both of you.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 12, 2009, 12:31:39 PM
Quote from: LoD on August 12, 2009, 12:20:02 PM
I realize there is a camp that feel skills are a necessary evil to portraying a role, and generally consider building up skills as a nuisance and an obstacle to being able to play "the role they want". However, I feel there are a many benefits generated by the current development cycle and would be loathe to throw that away. More people should consider the skill grind as -part- of their character development and work it into their daily routines instead of trying to figure out ways to avoid or circumvent it. My most successful character had scan, listen, haggle, pilot, ride, and value. Skills are not necessary for having fun, being successful, or achieving things.
You know what I hate about this sentiment here, LoD? It's the implication that those of us who don't enjoy the skill grind are deficient somehow. But hey, guess what, I'm not deficient, or immature, or a powergamer, nor do I want an "easier" game, nor do I want to get an "unfair advantage" over other players.
This general attitude amongst the playerbase, quite honestly, makes me wonder why I bother trying. For once, I would just like to have it assumed that I (and other players who want changes) have the best interests of the whole game and all its players at heart.
Also, IMO, citing Khann as your most successful/fun PC etc is disingenuous in a discussion of this type; AFAIK, you played him in the range of 10 or so years ago, a time when I assume you had many fewer adult responsibilities and played a lot more hours overall. You weren't a casual player at the time and he wasn't a casually-played PC; there is little relevant comparison.
This has been a common concern of mine through the thread. The gut level reactions are weird. Nobody is going to devalue your precious skill advancement... that's really not what this thread is about.
...but I'm just repeating myself. So I'll stop.
Not deficient, Gimf. The assumption is that you are just like every other person in the world. You have unrealistic expectations about something.
Quote from: spawnloser on August 12, 2009, 12:37:01 PM
Not deficient, Gimf. The assumption is that you are just like every other person in the world. You have unrealistic expectations about something.
What a ridiculous statement. Change in any situation comes from asking for it. There is absolutely nothing "unrealistic" about desiring change.
I cannot count the number of times that points in this board have been countered with The Game Is Perfect You're Just Playing It Wrong.
I'll try to avoid derailing here, but I do want to address LoD's argument. I'm not saying that skill-based roleplay is inherently bad. Yes, having to practice to get good is a more than reasonable expectation, and I'm quite proud of how well I do with roleplaying in skill-spam situations. My issue is that there is too much of it, and after a certain point, it becomes a chore oocly, especially since - let's say in sparring, I'll be the only one who bothers to try and create narratives and combat emotes. With casters it's even worse. Hours upon hours of mindlessly repeating spells while trying desperately to think of new, exciting ways to think/feel/emote so that it's not complete monotony.
I'm certain the intention behind these roles is so that skills will increase to a level of reasonable competence after so many days of normal play. That's just not the case. A gemmer role demands that you spend a huge chunk of your first several days of playtime in isolation spamming spells so that you can actually -do- something with your character. If you don't like the skill-spam, you are effectively not allowed to play a competent gemmer. Incompetent ones can be fine, but why am I being barred from a character role because I'd prefer to spend my time RPing with others?
Sure, it's fun to play characters who are learning, who are not necessarily good at their roles, and all that. I've repeatedly applied for special roles where I intentionally play people who aren't supposed to be amazing at what they do. However, when I -want- to play someone competent at coded skills, I have a barrier of days upon days of nonstop skillspam I have to overcome.
I can deal with the time spent being weak, it's more than reasonable, and the games' "Start weak, get strong" mentality isn't one that'll change. I just argue against the amount of hours played spamming skills required to get strong.
Diminishing returns would totally fix this, and to tie this back into relevance in the thread - it'd also mean that less frequent players could enjoy a role that uses skills. Play your Bynner, spar less, but not be a liability on contract. Those who play eight hours a day could spend the free time doing something else - and we all win.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 12, 2009, 12:40:05 PM
Quote from: spawnloser on August 12, 2009, 12:37:01 PM
Not deficient, Gimf. The assumption is that you are just like every other person in the world. You have unrealistic expectations about something.
What a ridiculous statement. Change in any situation comes from asking for it. There is absolutely nothing "unrealistic" about desiring change.
No, you misunderstand. I'm not saying you have an unrealistic expectation for expecting change. You have an unrealistic expectation when building characters that need to do the grind to be successful. You have an unrealistic expectation when (and if, I don't know if you supported this and don't care to go back and read through the entire thread to find out) you expect getting a skill boost at character creation would fix things.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 12, 2009, 12:31:39 PM
This general attitude amongst the playerbase, quite honestly, makes me wonder why I bother trying.
Because you will get to where you want to go, no matter what happens.
My primary problem with skill boosts is that they don't solve the problem. There are still things you won't be able to do. There are regular fallback options for the unskilled : mining and logging. I've done these things to keep fed and watered while I was building up my character. You know what? I continued to be limited even after I worked my skills.
Quote from: Comrade Canadia on August 12, 2009, 12:43:42 PM
I'll try to avoid derailing here, but I do want to address LoD's argument. I'm not saying that skill-based roleplay is inherently bad. Yes, having to practice to get good is a more than reasonable expectation, and I'm quite proud of how well I do with roleplaying in skill-spam situations. My issue is that there is too much of it, and after a certain point, it becomes a chore oocly, especially since - let's say in sparring, I'll be the only one who bothers to try and create narratives and combat emotes. With casters it's even worse. Hours upon hours of mindlessly repeating spells while trying desperately to think of new, exciting ways to think/feel/emote so that it's not complete monotony.
I am definitely not against revisions of the skill code that improve the way skills are learned, but I wanted to attach value to the process of skill training since so many people seem to feel it's unnecessary or prohibitive. My answer is that it's purposeful and, while there are always ways to make improvements, solutions that don't take this into account are probably the ones people react to most strongly in a negative fashion.
Quote from: Comrade Canadia on August 12, 2009, 12:43:42 PM
If you don't like the skill-spam, you are effectively not allowed to play a competent gemmer. Incompetent ones can be fine, but why am I being barred from a character role because I'd prefer to spend my time RPing with others?
Many of the opinions from people saying, "The game is just fine." would likely ask, "If you know that your play-time will be limited, why are you attempting to manage a character role that depends upon coded success in order to be fun, entertaining, or rewarding?" I think the answer is that the type of roles that don't require coded success are fun
sometimes, but in the same way that playing a warrior over and over and over again, you begin to want a change of pace and find the alternatives lacking.
Quote from: Comrade Canadia on August 12, 2009, 12:43:42 PM
Diminishing returns would totally fix this, and to tie this back into relevance in the thread - it'd also mean that less frequent players could enjoy a role that uses skills. Play your Bynner, spar less, but not be a liability on contract. Those who play eight hours a day could spend the free time doing something else - and we all win.
I could get behind a skill system that allows for a quick jump to mediocrity, but a much slower progression toward becoming expert. I just wanted to make sure that any proposed system takes into account the other factors associated with skill gain that have a very real impact on the rest of the players and the general play of Armageddon.
Quote from: Gimfalisette
You know what I hate about this sentiment here, LoD? It's the implication that those of us who don't enjoy the skill grind are deficient somehow. But hey, guess what, I'm not deficient, or immature, or a powergamer, nor do I want an "easier" game, nor do I want to get an "unfair advantage" over other players.
This general attitude amongst the playerbase, quite honestly, makes me wonder why I bother trying. For once, I would just like to have it assumed that I (and other players who want changes) have the best interests of the whole game and all its players at heart.
I wasn't meaning to imply that you are somehow deficient, but that there are a wealth of factors to consider when tossing around ideas related to skill gain and playing concepts. I was further attempting to emphasize that coded skill and enjoyable roles are not mutually exclusive, and that tailoring our expectations and role concepts can help deal with the disparity we find between a beginning character's coded ability and that of a role we've envisioned. Further, if you label me as having this "general attitude" you apply to others, I'm not sure what you're doing either -- because I started this thread on how to improve the life of the casual gamer, and have been defending the place of the casual player in Armageddon along with making several suggestions.
Can't we both have the
best interests of the whole game in mind and still disagree on the best method to achieve that goal? Surely the fact that we might disagree on one subject or another doesn't mean one of us has an "attitude".
-LoD
Quote from: Comrade Canadia on August 12, 2009, 12:43:42 PM
If you don't like the skill-spam, you are effectively not allowed to play a competent gemmer. Incompetent ones can be fine, but why am I being barred from a character role because I'd prefer to spend my time RPing with others?
Without using skills you can't be skilled??? I never knew that! (Ahem. /end sarcasm.)
Without using skills you can't be a competent hunter, guard, mercenary, thief, merchant... and the list goes on. Why do you single out gemmers? What about those Bynners and guards with all their sparring? That isn't skill spam, but casting a few spells is? Come on.
The REAL issue is enjoyment. Must you play a skilled character to enjoy the game? Most aides, the only skills they use is contact, maybe barrier, and listen and scan if they got them. Heck, you could play an incompetent guard/soldier/hunter and still enjoy it. YOU are defining what must be part of your character for you to enjoy it. Change that definition and you're good to go.
Quote from: spawnloser on August 12, 2009, 02:32:30 PM
YOU are defining what must be part of your character for you to enjoy it. Change that definition and you're good to go.
Fully parsed out: "Start enjoying things you don't enjoy."
(Since I
have enjoyed playing Arm, and
haven't ever played a particularly formidable character, I can safely say that skills aren't a huge issue for me. It's just that I so enjoy snarking at spawnloser.)
Grow up and flame elsewhere. Strawman elsewhere too for that matter.
If you can NOT find enjoyment in an unskilled character, I maintain that indeed, you are a twink. There are so many possibilities that you should be able to find something. If you can't, your focus is too much on winning.
Quote from: spawnloser on August 12, 2009, 05:24:14 PM
If you can NOT find enjoyment in an unskilled character, I maintain that indeed, you are a twink. There are so many possibilities that you should be able to find something. If you can't, your focus is too much on winning.
I just can't agree with this. Even more so, I can't agree that someone is a twink because of this. That really sounds far out. Real roleplayers might as well play a mush, as far as you seem to imply.
Here's a few things SoI has done to prevent the excessive emphasis on available playtime:
Practice crafts and sparring NPCs; Practice crafts allow you to gain a bit of skill by yourself. It is not available for all skills, mostly combat ones, and does not reward the character as much as actual usage of the skill. Sparring NPCs exist in most soldier-type clans, being simply an NPC with a sparring weapon and a simple script for the clanned player to manually end the fight when finished. Both of these serve the dual purpose of allowing people with less playtimes the ability to always do something productive (regarding combat training, at least) and to lessen the disadvantage of being off-peak or in a low-activity clan. A helpful side effect is that it actually enforces the notion that trained soldiers are more martially skilled than part-time hunters and alleyway muggers whereas Armageddon characters are often the other way around due to many such clans having very few players.
OOC timers: On SoI, most coded activities are craft-based, and anything which is significantly profitable, or should realistically take a long time to do, is limited by a global OOC timer. Crafting something valuable invokes this timer, preventing the character from performing any craft with an OOC timer for x hours (which ticks while offline as well), the length depending on the craft. This again serves the dual purpose of mitigating the disadvantage of those who can't play multiple hours a day, and limiting the temptation to constantly toil for profits or take to unrealistic amounts of coded activities. It is also simply a more strict enforcement of realism which I feel Armageddon could benefit from, and it may even decrese the triviality of our economy.
Roles: A wide range of roles exist on SoI, most of which would not be applicable to Arm. Available at character creation, they allow the character to enter the game in a pre-determined role such as Private in Clan X or Apprentice to Merchant Y. The more interesting thing is that a few roles allow you to simply start as a more accomplished person in whatever career you've chosen, from crafting to combat. Since these roles cost an amount of RPP (karma) depending on the clan rank, skill boosts or material bonus granted, the players who take them have presumably proven that they are worthy of it. Likewise, someone who has earned the karma to play a magicker or half-giant would surely be trusted to start a combatant or crafter with the skill level equivalent of having played the character for a month or two. This would relieve anyone, and casual players in particular, from having to spend an excessive amount of time in that early stage of utter uselesness where your character just can't do anything right.
Quote from: spawnloser on August 12, 2009, 05:24:14 PM
Grow up and flame elsewhere. Strawman elsewhere too for that matter.
If you can NOT find enjoyment in an unskilled character, I maintain that indeed, you are a twink. There are so many possibilities that you should be able to find something. If you can't, your focus is too much on winning.
And if you can NOT post without calling someone a twink just because their idea of fun is not the same as yours, you are a flamer.
Grow up and flame elsewhere.
Tone down the labeling, and extremism please. This thread isn't nearly as contentious as it appears. Read your posts carefully, if you have a point make it, but make it politely. If you feel that it's your nature to be nasty, snarky, mean, vindictive, or other such things, or you just can't pass up the opportunity, or you believe free speech means being an ass, or other such arguments, then restrain yourself, or I'll be happy to show you what I believe. This also goes for reading others posts. Don't read into them direction, insult, and predisposition because of stance or previous interaction and respond accordingly. It's a discussion.
I have to agree with spawnloser's point, in that it isn't just gemmers who have to go through the grind to improve their skill sets. I personally think that magick classes have it EASY when it comes to grinding, but won't go into why because I wouldn't want to inadvertantly pass out information about the magick system that staff want to keep behind the scenes.
Suffice to say though, that I think rangers, and merchants for example, have a much much tougher grind ahead of them than any magick user would, because a lot of their skills are contingent on things like having materials, being able to to find game, the weather ... and the list goes on.
In fact a lot of threads on the GDB would imply that most folks believe magick users advance too quickly ... making them a preferred choice for folks who don't like to spam overly much to improve their skill, in my opinion.
But all of that is sort of beside the point of the discussion I think. Anyway, I don't think brytta.leofa was actually attacking you spawnloser, no need to get riled up.
Quote from: spawnloserIf you can NOT find enjoyment in an unskilled character, I maintain that indeed, you are a twink. There are so many possibilities that you should be able to find something. If you can't, your focus is too much on winning.
There's a significant difference between being able to find enjoyment in an unskilled character and being willing to accept it as your simple fate for every character you play, as is often the case for casual players. Most people will be happy to occasionally play a character with little focus on skills. Most people also acknowledge that skills are not only a requirment for the vast majority of what this game has to offer, but also has a direct and undeniable influence on how readily other players will "invite" you into the more interesting aspects of the game.
Your opinions and attitude make you easy to dislike. If this is not your goal, you might try to be less judgmental and more open-minded to the idea that not everyone plays the game the exact way you do it. It doesn't make them twinks.
Logically speaking, the less a player can rely for fun on plot involvement, interactive RP with other PCs, and all that sort of thing which we all necessarily acknowledge a casual player will have less access to...
the more a player will have to rely for fun on skills.
Else, I'm not sure how we're suggesting fun is to be obtained--if not through plot involvement, PC interaction, and skill development. Though, one other player was kind enough to send me a PM about how they achieved their personal version of fun through a PC who mostly idled.
This is by and large a wonderful thread, and I recognise much of it from a GMT player's perspective.
While some of us consider whether one is logged in or not to be an OOC phenomenon, if one's PC or immortal superior holds another opinion then the character will suffer ICly as a result. Well, they will suffer anyhow: their skills willl not budge, their social standing will take a tumble along with their likelihood of ever garnering a promotion. This feels unfair to the character: "why should the character suffer just because I rarely log on?" It'd be good for my suspension of disbelief, and perhaps also for other casual players' appreciation of the game, to have an explanation to this. It seems our characters are right dull vPCs, mostly sitting around in a corner until the player descends to inhabit them. Time logged out is not worth a tenth as much as time logged in.
Perhaps we should OOC "I haven't seen you around much. Has your character been working hard or slacking off?" as well as e-mail our clan imms before counting out the monthly pay. Perhaps we should pay for virtual work in virtual coin.
Also, all our little economies might be a contributing factor to the casuals' woes. When leader PC:s have to pay themselves and their employees from a set amount of money which only grows with their own and their employees' efforts, it might make sense for the leader PC's player to employ characters with very active players. Another contributing factor could be ceilings on the number of PCs one clan can have employed. The sponsored roles themselves might be overly restricted as well. I wouldn't mind a few leaders with very sporadic playing times as long as the goal would be to have another leader around with more regular ones. I'd think that more widely opening up sponsored roles for more casual players could provide that segment with the high status roles which they're otherwise without an opportunity to play.
Quote from: spawnloser on August 12, 2009, 05:24:14 PM
If you can NOT find enjoyment in an unskilled character, I maintain that indeed, you are a twink. There are so many possibilities that you should be able to find something. If you can't, your focus is too much on winning.
The way I really take this, spawn, is that you, as a player, aren't that interested in what your characters accomplish over time. You (perhaps) tend to play more moment-by-moment than with a particular goal. It's the difference between "I'm a Byn runner" and "I'm training to become a trooper."
Because skills are a vital component of how things are actually accomplished in Arm. If you don't find skills essential, it's
probably because you're not very concerned with shaping out a particular story arc for your character.
That's a good way to play, but it's not the only way. Preferences schmeferences.
Quote from: Lizzie on August 12, 2009, 05:32:21 PMAnd if you can NOT post without calling someone a twink just because their idea of fun is not the same as yours, you are a flamer.
That's not what I did. I said that if you MUST play the game one way, your way, perhaps you need to expand your idea of what it is to play a game like this one.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 12, 2009, 06:06:32 PM
Logically speaking, the less a player can rely for fun on plot involvement, interactive RP with other PCs, and all that sort of thing which we all necessarily acknowledge a casual player will have less access to...
the more a player will have to rely for fun on skills.
Why do you think a character that plays less than others can't interact with others while logged in? I personally don't have any problems interacting with other characters that I rarely see. Remember, there's a difference between interacting and making close friends.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on August 12, 2009, 06:47:38 PMThe way I really take this, spawn, is that you, as a player, aren't that interested in what your characters accomplish over time. You (perhaps) tend to play more moment-by-moment than with a particular goal. It's the difference between "I'm a Byn runner" and "I'm training to become a trooper."
Because skills are a vital component of how things are actually accomplished in Arm. If you don't find skills essential, it's probably because you're not very concerned with shaping out a particular story arc for your character. That's a good way to play, but it's not the only way. Preferences schmeferences.
Actually, you're confusing player goals for the character and character goals for the character.
Quote from: spawnloser on August 12, 2009, 08:45:28 PM
Actually, you're confusing player goals for the character and character goals for the character.
My simile was ill-considered. But I'm saying that if a player's goal is to accomplish character goals, his PC will eventually have to become a competent goalie.
Love the 'help wanted' idea from SoI. Keep the powerful roles the way they are, but start recruiting for the grunts and peons through OOC means. Being in a populated clan can mean all the difference for meaningful interaction and for those without a ton of time, being able to hop right in would be very welcome. I'd think even more hardcore players would welcome it. Is there a downside?
As for skills... eek. How can you fix a broken system without tearing it out? Some skills have timers, some do not. Some skills have timers and chance based gains. Some skills have timers which are multiples of other timers. These were added to prevent people from power gaming their skills up in hours. I could be wrong (probably am) but I was under the impression that the timer was based off of the time-played clock, not an independent clock. In other words, if you're not logged in for X amount of time, your slashing weapon skill will not improve. That means you won't have a talented warrior until you hit the 50+ day mark.
Can we switch that timer to a real world clock? That way if you only play a few hours a week, your skill gain wont be truncated simply because you are not breaching the timer threshold. Over all this would probably increase everyones skill gains, but the addicts wouldn't see much more and the casual player would see a great difference.
As a small derail: these timers are totally flocked. Some skills you can branch in, literally, 15 minutes. Others take thousands of hours. Some sort of parity needs to be found between combat and utility skills.
Love this thread and love the ideas in it.
Would love to play Armageddon again if I didn't have to play for 5+ hours a day to do anything..
Quote from: spawnloser on August 12, 2009, 08:45:28 PM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 12, 2009, 06:06:32 PM
Logically speaking, the less a player can rely for fun on plot involvement, interactive RP with other PCs, and all that sort of thing which we all necessarily acknowledge a casual player will have less access to...
the more a player will have to rely for fun on skills.
Why do you think a character that plays less than others can't interact with others while logged in? I personally don't have any problems interacting with other characters that I rarely see. Remember, there's a difference between interacting and making close friends.
I have the most fun in Armageddon when my PCs have more than superficial relationships with other PCs, and I know I'm not the only one. Achieving this takes more than simply interaction - it usually takes prolonged, sustained interaction. This is really hard for casual players to maintain, for the same reasons it's hard to get involved and stay involved in plots. I don't know if this is what Gimf meant by 'interactive RP,' but I have a feeling it is. I don't think she means idle chit-chat at the bar, which yes, I think all of us here are capable of.
I believe it's possible to build up a social network and a character's skills playing an hour a day. If the player logs in at a regular time.
If someone is only logging in semi-randomly or once a week, even if it's for a few hours, well, what can you do. Whole batches of characters will die and new ones appear in that time.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on August 13, 2009, 11:04:33 AM
I believe it's possible to build up a social network and a character's skills playing an hour a day. If the player logs in at a regular time.
If someone is only logging in semi-randomly or once a week, even if it's for a few hours, well, what can you do. Whole batches of characters will die and new ones appear in that time.
Just choose a few people to focus on and try to make them your PCs contacts. Befriend PCs who play for twelve hours a day and use them for staying up to date/getting invited to things/etc;
Quote from: aruna on August 13, 2009, 10:56:38 AM
I have the most fun in Armageddon when my PCs have more than superficial relationships with other PCs, and I know I'm not the only one. Achieving this takes more than simply interaction - it usually takes prolonged, sustained interaction. This is really hard for casual players to maintain, for the same reasons it's hard to get involved and stay involved in plots. I don't know if this is what Gimf meant by 'interactive RP,' but I have a feeling it is. I don't think she means idle chit-chat at the bar, which yes, I think all of us here are capable of.
Yep, you got it. My point was that, when I do not have the time or opportunity to engage in my preferred playstyle--which is deeply-involved interpersonal RP and plot stuff--then I'm fully capable of enjoying an alternate playstyle which is more skill- and achievement-focused. But that's the thing--as a casual player, I've got to be able to find fun
somewhere. And right now, it is highly difficult for casual players to find fun
anywhere, because there are barriers to short-time play throughout ARM.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 13, 2009, 11:27:17 AM
Quote from: aruna on August 13, 2009, 10:56:38 AM
I have the most fun in Armageddon when my PCs have more than superficial relationships with other PCs, and I know I'm not the only one. Achieving this takes more than simply interaction - it usually takes prolonged, sustained interaction. This is really hard for casual players to maintain, for the same reasons it's hard to get involved and stay involved in plots. I don't know if this is what Gimf meant by 'interactive RP,' but I have a feeling it is. I don't think she means idle chit-chat at the bar, which yes, I think all of us here are capable of.
Yep, you got it. My point was that, when I do not have the time or opportunity to engage in my preferred playstyle--which is deeply-involved interpersonal RP and plot stuff--then I'm fully capable of enjoying an alternate playstyle which is more skill- and achievement-focused. But that's the thing--as a casual player, I've got to be able to find fun somewhere. And right now, it is highly difficult for casual players to find fun anywhere, because there are barriers to short-time play throughout ARM.
This is the issue.
I don't think that casual play offers many working playstyles at all. I don't require constant interaction, plot involvement or coded awesomeness... but one does need something to hold their interest. One shot flavor characters don't always fill that void, they often feel like flat parodies. If you do succeed as a casual and start to get involved, the game begins to pressure you to play more.
Synthesizing a lot of the ideas presented: I'd like to see staff sponsored roles with heavy restrictions placed on the player, that put you in a position where you can have fun.
An example: Staff sponsor a Tor Academy trainer. You get skills and stats, but you must follow the Tor documents, support the clan and be a positive influence on it. You're not to leave the Academy unless absolutely necessary. The staff will set you up with the documentation and anything else necessary to the role - your job is to work with trainees, rp with everyone in the clan, brainstorm ways to improve the clan and anything else you can do. You bring the clan to life and help support the noble. You're also encouraged to use the forums to coordinate and to help work with players there and spiff up the clan's documentation.
...I would take a role like that, even knowing I could only play twice a week. It'd be fun, and I'd be able to give back to the game and feel
important! Even better, these roles might make the game into more of a roleplaying game and less of a competitive arena! They can flesh out the parts of the games that more regular players find too restrictive or boring!
Before everyone tells me that I can already do things like that... I can't. Not with any ease. And for a player with limited playtime, if the challenge is to even get into the game, we're just as likely to go do something else.
Let me state that again, for good measure: Casual players can fill roles that are too restrictive for more regular players.* And they can have fun with them.
*Although an intensive regime of bran supplements can make even the most casual player regular.
I'll stop rabbiting about diminishing returns and jump on this bandwagon. Casual roles for good roleplayers who really wanna just commit a few hours a week would do the game an obscene amount of good.
It would seem logical to me that repetition, consistency, and a focus on maximizing the chance of repeated interaction would be a good recipe for the off-peak or casual player. As others have mentioned, having a consistent login time would certainly help improve the chances of bumping into the same characters more than once, as they would know both when and where to find your PC if needed.
Some PC's require lengthy stints of interaction in order to create those deep relationships, but I could see a string of chance encounters developing into a long-lasting relationship/friendship, even to the point where if you outlive their PC's, they may find themselves coming back to you simply because you're more consistent than the other flash-in-the-pan characters that filter through the area.
What I might do in such a situation is:
- Select a high-traffic location (street, tavern, tailor, bank, shop, gate) in which to "set up shop".
- Select a career that encourages interaction with players.
- Try to keep set "hours" for my service and maintain a sense of consistency so players know where and when to find me.
Examples of the types of jobs that might work would be:
Tracker/Skinner for HireLocation: Main Gate
Guild/Subclass: Ranger/Hunter
Having practiced the art of tracking animals, you offer services to other hunters or groups of hunters to help them track down their prey; beast or otherwise. You may not always be available, and you're not offering a capable swordarm or even a steady bow, just some help with finding animal trails to improve the haul of skinned goods. Any non-ranger would likely love to have you at their disposal for a daily hunt.
General CrafterLocation: Market or Main Gate
Guild/Subclass: Merchant/General Crafter
Unwilling or unable to leave the city, you've set up a small tent or rug somewhere in a high-traffic location (e.g. main gate, stables, outside a shop) where you're willing to buy natural resources from hunter/gatherers for slightly better costs than the surrounding shops. Using those pieces to fuel your own crafts, you can then begin to further your operation and your offerings while you sit and talk with the hunters, gossip about the weather, and perhaps learn a secret or two.
BodyguardLocation: Tavern
Guild/Subclass: Warrior/Guard
Enjoying your ale, you know well that people require protection from time to time. Perhaps they want a little extra muscle for a meeting they plan to attend, a back alley deal going down, or for a quick trip to another city. They may not have the coin to hire a group of professionals, but it might be enough for you. You may not be the most skilled, but sometimes just having another warm body is enough of a deterrent.
ApothecaryLocation: Tavern
Guild/Subclass: Assassin/Physician
Knowing your general way around different types of plants and animal parts, you may be able to offer your services to hunters, bodyguards, and caravan teams that may want a few herbal remedies for the road. Internal resources are not always available, but it might be nice to know where and when you can find someone willing to make you some remedies before a big hunt or long trek.
Interpreter/Cultural AdvisorLocation: Tavern, Market, Gate
Guild/Subclass: Merchant/Linguist
There may be plenty of times when merchants have need of someone who can speak the tongue of the elves or dwarves, especially when they mean to meet them on their terms. Having someone who understand the subtle nuances of their phrasing and the culture of their people would be a boon toward making a successful deal. And knowing where to find someone who would be able to help them accomplish those tasks might be a boon indeed.
Enhancement SkillsWriting those following jobs got me thinking that another good niche that could be create for casual players would be in the area of enhancement skills. These are not really part of the current game, but I could see them being a very useful resource that players would frequently seek out, not once, but many times.
Enhancements could be made to weapons, armor, or even mounts.
> Modifying weapons to do slightly better damage, leather wrist-loops to avoid being disarmed, reinforcements to avoid breaking
> Modifying armor with spikes that may do damage during battle, reinforcing sections to be heavier, but more protective, etc...
> Modifying mounts to be able to travel more easily across harsh landscapes, lose less stamina, or better resist the heat.
I could see these types of things being highly valuable to PC's and create a very real working economy that has repeat value as people purchase new armor, weapons, and other tools. It would also allow people to customize their items to better fit the role they are trying to play. And I could see these types of enhancements being something valuable that a casual player could slowly develop over time and become a valuable part of the city/settlement.
-LoD
staggerlee, I would probably be interested in playing a role like that. I don't think I'd want it designed to be restrictive to the point of having to stay in the clan area, though; because while the primary focus would be to enhance the clan, I can see a role like that enhancing other corners of the gameworld as there is opportunity, as well. What I mean is, I wouldn't want such a role to be effectively turned into yet another iso-clan role. (Been there, done that, it can be really really difficult to play and enjoy.)
But yeah, overall, roles of that kind and other tools to enhance/ease the basics of gameplay might make a real difference for casual players and the game overall.
LoD, I assume you're promoting the above roles as being ones where skill boosts have been given. Because there are a few of those on there that are not going to be valuable to other players, out of the box, without skill boosts.
Otherwise, I'm not sure how what you're suggesting differs from all the prior advice to "change your playstyle, not the game."
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 13, 2009, 11:57:35 AM
staggerlee, I would probably be interested in playing a role like that. I don't think I'd want it designed to be restrictive to the point of having to stay in the clan area, though; because while the primary focus would be to enhance the clan, I can see a role like that enhancing other corners of the gameworld as there is opportunity, as well. What I mean is, I wouldn't want such a role to be effectively turned into yet another iso-clan role. (Been there, done that, it can be really really difficult to play and enjoy.)
Sure well, the details are of course fairly irrelevant.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 13, 2009, 11:57:35 AM
LoD, I assume you're promoting the above roles as being ones where skill boosts have been given. Because there are a few of those on there that are not going to be valuable to other players, out of the box, without skill boosts.
Otherwise, I'm not sure how what you're suggesting differs from all the prior advice to "change your playstyle, not the game."
I think LoD's ideas would be great if they were fit into the structure of staff sponsorship that I've described. The nice thing about being in a clan is that you have access to clan documentation, staff, forums and other ooc tools to add legitimacy to the role and ease communication with other players. But if the staff wanted those issues could be ironed out. ;)
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 13, 2009, 11:57:35 AM
LoD, I assume you're promoting the above roles as being ones where skill boosts have been given. Because there are a few of those on there that are not going to be valuable to other players, out of the box, without skill boosts.
Otherwise, I'm not sure how what you're suggesting differs from all the prior advice to "change your playstyle, not the game."
Some of the roles I mentioned can provide a service immediately out of the box due to the nature of the skills involved, or at least begin working toward the service in a fairly quick fashion. Knowing how long it -doesn't- take to master some of the skills involved, it would be something almost anyone could do, even playing only 1 hour/day. Even the ones that require 'some' skill could be done at a reasonable level within a RL week's worth of 1-hour playing stints.
And, to stand behind my word, if you don't believe they are possible - I will personally choose one of the roles on my list and play it with only 1 hour per day and report the results when it's over.
-LoD
Quote from: LoD on August 13, 2009, 12:03:17 PM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 13, 2009, 11:57:35 AM
LoD, I assume you're promoting the above roles as being ones where skill boosts have been given. Because there are a few of those on there that are not going to be valuable to other players, out of the box, without skill boosts.
Otherwise, I'm not sure how what you're suggesting differs from all the prior advice to "change your playstyle, not the game."
Some of the roles I mentioned can provide a service immediately out of the box due to the nature of the skills involved, or at least begin working toward the service in a fairly quick fashion. Knowing how long it -doesn't- take to master some of the skills involved, it would be something almost anyone could do, even playing only 1 hour/day. Even the ones that require 'some' skill could be done at a reasonable level within a RL week's worth of 1-hour playing stints.
And, to stand behind my word, if you don't believe they are possible - I will personally choose one of the roles on my list and play it with only 1 hour per day and report the results when it's over.
-LoD
You're focusing on giving advanced players that are suddenly short on playtime roles to get into. That's fine on a personal level, and has probably worked great for you and a couple other people. But it's a personal solution and fairly difficult to actually pull off with ease, it requires advanced knowledge and skills of how to manipulate the game.
I'm looking for solutions that will encourage players with lower playtimes as a group to contribute to the game and have fun... on a structural level. Your solution is fine, but it's very individualized and not focused on appeal or accessibility to the average player.
Quote from: staggerlee on August 13, 2009, 12:13:54 PM
You're focusing on giving advanced players that are suddenly short on playtime roles to get into. That's fine on a personal level, and has probably worked great for you and a couple other people. But it's a personal solution and fairly difficult to actually pull off with ease, it requires advanced knowledge and skills of how to manipulate the game.
I'm looking for solutions that will encourage players with lower playtimes as a group to contribute to the game and have fun... on a structural level. Your solution is fine, but it's very individualized and not focused on appeal or accessibility to the average player.
The most vocal group behind casual game play, at least in these discussions and other previous threads, fall directly into the category of player for whom my suggestions would work. There have been several other suggestions made, but it seems like the answer keeps coming back, "
I wouldn't have fun doing that, or that wouldn't work for
me." I was trying to provide some examples that would work for
you since there have been a wealth of suggestions made for more general improvements.
I fail to see why suggestions cannot be made for varied levels of experience in the game since not all casual players are going to be novices or newbies -- I would even wager that the bulk of our would-be casual players fall into the
more experienced category than the
less experienced category.
-LoD
Quote from: LoD on August 13, 2009, 12:24:15 PM
Quote from: staggerlee on August 13, 2009, 12:13:54 PM
You're focusing on giving advanced players that are suddenly short on playtime roles to get into. That's fine on a personal level, and has probably worked great for you and a couple other people. But it's a personal solution and fairly difficult to actually pull off with ease, it requires advanced knowledge and skills of how to manipulate the game.
I'm looking for solutions that will encourage players with lower playtimes as a group to contribute to the game and have fun... on a structural level. Your solution is fine, but it's very individualized and not focused on appeal or accessibility to the average player.
The most vocal group behind casual game play, at least in these discussions and other previous threads, fall directly into the category of player for whom my suggestions would work. There have been several other suggestions made, but it seems like the answer keeps coming back, "I wouldn't have fun doing that, or that wouldn't work for me." I was trying to provide some examples that would work for you since there have been a wealth of suggestions made for more general improvements.
I fail to see why suggestions cannot be made for varied levels of experience in the game since not all casual players are going to be novices or newbies -- in fact, I would likely wager that the bulk of our would-be casual players fall into the more experienced category than the less experienced category.
-LoD
The vocal group is the minority. Most casual players just vanish quietly away. A solution needs to address the majority, not the stubborn few that continue to read the gdb and post with some vehemence. (Myself, Gimf, etc.) We're hardly normal.
Again, I'm not saying that your ideas don't have merit, just that they're so individualized and advanced that they fail to address the root of the problem. They're all great ideas, they just don't contribute much toward solving the underlying problem.
And actually, as I said earlier, I think that your ideas would work extremely well inside the structure I proposed. Our ideas ain't mutually exclusive. ;)
Quote from: staggerlee on August 13, 2009, 12:28:58 PM
The vocal group is the minority. Most casual players just vanish quietly away. A solution needs to address the majority, not the stubborn few that continue to read the gdb and post with some vehemence. (Myself, Gimf, etc.) We're hardly normal.
Exactly. ARM needs a systems approach to the ongoing issue of casual play, not more of the same "Here's how to make it work for you, the advanced player."
I mean--since I played a Dasari noble once upon a time and was able to extensively document available herbs and how to make various potions and poisons, and what they do and so on--I could play an apothecary very handily, from the knowledge perspective. But that's advanced stuff, and I needed staff support to achieve what I did.
And then, there are other roles on your list that I could not perform, as I'm not nearly advanced enough as a player to do so.
"Solutions" that rely primarily on the personal experience and expertise of the player are not solutions to this problem at all.
Quote from: staggerlee on August 13, 2009, 12:28:58 PM
The vocal group is the minority. Most casual players just vanish quietly away. A solution needs to address the majority, not the stubborn few that continue to read the gdb and post with some vehemence.
I love the idea of specific, restrictive staff-sponsored roles for casual
experienced players, but I'm curious to know how you think they'll benefit newbie casual players. Skill-boosted roles especially are much more likely to go to veterans than newbies. Drop the skill boosts, and you still have Arm's steep learning curve, the chargen process, and the karma system, which I can't help but feel make the "casual newbie" an oxymoron. We all know the incredible amount of time it takes to learn the ropes here.
Quote from: aruna on August 13, 2009, 01:16:56 PM
Quote from: staggerlee on August 13, 2009, 12:28:58 PM
The vocal group is the minority. Most casual players just vanish quietly away. A solution needs to address the majority, not the stubborn few that continue to read the gdb and post with some vehemence.
I love the idea of specific, restrictive staff-sponsored roles for casual experienced players, but I'm curious to know how you think they'll benefit newbie casual players. Skill-boosted roles especially are much more likely to go to veterans than newbies. Drop the skill boosts, and you still have Arm's steep learning curve, the chargen process, and the karma system, which I can't help but feel make the "casual newbie" an oxymoron. We all know the incredible amount of time it takes to learn the ropes here.
You may be right... it would be extremely hard to tailor roles toward people that haven't learned the game yet to some extent. I'd welcome any ideas that anyone else had on the subject though!
I guess newbie might be a poor choice of word, semi-experienced could be worked with though if the roles were designed right. Grabbing the continued interest of players before they drift off.
I think one good option is to open up the gladiators again.
As for casual players being given some advantage to level up at the same rate as someone that plays 4-5 hours a day? I don't think so, it would make me jaded if my 4-5 hours were wasted time.
I am a casual player and LOD's suggestions work well for me, I have been doing some version of them for a while. As a casual player, you wont be able to be the star player. It is time you be a benchwarmer and provide the details to Armageddon that catch the attention of the NOOBs. The little roles are the roles that caught me and it is the little roles that will catch others. I think it is called "depth."
If I missed what this thread is about, then IDK. I am just seeing an arguement go in endless circles here with suggestions being put forth and stopped because they don't solve the problem. The problem is that the player doesn't play enough. Play more and all your problems will be solved, or don't play more and don't worry so much about progression in skills and world changing goals as you worry about how your character interacts with the various races, creeds, and environmental effects.
Quote from: Delstro on August 13, 2009, 01:36:18 PM
I think one good option is to open up the gladiators again.
This is precisely the sort of role that could be fit into the structure of staff sponsored roles a few of us have discussed!
Quote from: staggerlee on August 13, 2009, 01:38:57 PM
Quote from: Delstro on August 13, 2009, 01:36:18 PM
I think one good option is to open up the gladiators again.
This is precisely the sort of role that could be fit into the structure of staff sponsored roles a few of us have discussed!
This is a great idea.
Much of the problem with skill advancement could probably be taken care of if skill timers counted down while offline.
Then casual players wouldn't be stuck wasting (I use this solely with respect to skill advancement) every other hour they log in.
Or you could do some sort of login check vs. skill log system: if it's been more than 3-5 (or whatever) days since your character's last login, you get a random chance (based on time since last login) to get a small boost to a skill you actually used during your last session. In fact, if you coded the % chance to increase with time-since-last-login, you wouldn't have to put a "minimum-time-since-last-login" restriction on it: just code it such that 24 hours yields a very small % chance to increase, with a steady rise up to the point where 5 or 7 days would be pretty much guaranteed.
The reasoning being: the skills you used during the last session are probably indicative of what your character's "daily routine" is, and since they would've been performing that "daily routine" during the week you didn't log in, they really ought to be marginally better at it. Then you could set a cap such that this system would no longer award points to skills that are already at 75% of the maximum for that particular guild.
I think this could be adjusted such that someone who logs in only 5 times during a month is at least half as good as someone who logs in 25 times during a month, instead of incomparably worse. A leveling of the playing field between high-timers and low-timers.
Could it be gamed? Sure: you could log in and use exactly one skill during the time, and then log out for a week and guarantee that that skill was increased...but I think this would be a useful strategy for so few skills that it wouldn't really be a problem. In fact, you could put restrictions on certain skills (trap, poisoning, backstab, sap, etc.) such that they wouldn't be "participants" in the system.
Gladiators were done as a second (but highly restricted?) character in the Old Days, weren't they?
I have to wonder if having that option wouldn't be a huge relief not only to casual players, but also to people in very long-lived roles.
Another way to bill it would be as a good way for newbies to experience a little snapshot of the game: "If you want to get an idea for what Armageddon's all about, log on Saturday between 1-2 PM GMT-6. Newbie helpers will be standing by, and you'll get to play a pre-made, short-lived role as a condemned criminal."
Quote from: brytta.leofa on August 13, 2009, 02:59:29 PM
Gladiators were done as a second (but highly restricted?) character in the Old Days, weren't they?
I have to wonder if having that option wouldn't be a huge relief not only to casual players, but also to people in very long-lived roles.
Another way to bill it would be as a good way for newbies to experience a little snapshot of the game: "If you want to get an idea for what Armageddon's all about, log on Saturday between 1-2 PM GMT-6. Newbie helpers will be standing by, and you'll get to play a pre-made, short-lived role as a condemned criminal."
Nobody really wants to see newbs fumbling about with emotes in the middle of the Arena.
The tall, muscular man says, in sirihish:
"emote looks aroul w"
The tall, muscular man looks arouooc did that look right 2 u?
The tall, muscular man exclaims, in sirihish:
"u cant kill me the people will rise up against, you, u are tyrants!"
Yeah, though I love the idea of being able to throw newbs into exhiliarating, quick tastes of Crackageddon, a gladiator role doesn't seem like the place. Even there, a player needs a good sense of the docs and the system to be able to do it adequately.
The tall, muscular man exclaims, in sirihish:
"i am spartacus"
The short, muscular dwarf shouts, in northern-accented sirihish,
"FREEEEEEEDOOOOOM!"
You guys. :D Yeah, I guess not.
Quote from: Synthesis on August 13, 2009, 02:42:28 PM
Much of the problem with skill advancement could probably be taken care of if skill timers counted down while offline.
...
Note, this post makes an assumption that skill timers work this way in Armageddon. We will not say how it specifically works, but suffice it to say that based on the fact that I am posting this, I might be implying that this may be a false assumption.
Quote from: Morgenes on August 13, 2009, 09:26:42 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on August 13, 2009, 02:42:28 PM
Much of the problem with skill advancement could probably be taken care of if skill timers counted down while offline.
...
Note, this post makes an assumption that skill timers work this way in Armageddon. We will not say how it specifically works, but suffice it to say that based on the fact that I am posting this, I might be implying that this may be a false assumption.
To be totally honest, skill advancement is the least of my worries with casual characters.
Quote from: Nyr
I'm no Dasari, but I'm a pretty fungi
« on: Today at 09:07:22 AM »
We are going to open up another role in House Dasari.
House Dasari: In Brief
Quote
Dasari enjoy experimenting with everything: they use their peculiar affinity for herbs and herbal lore, poisons and poison lore, and an arcane understanding of medicine to create bizarre concoctions and do interesting things to living matter. Their tactics are, more often than not, effective for healing and developing medicinal solutions, and they teach a large number of healers and apothecaries within Gol Krathu. Their knowledge of such things is considered to be second to none, as they have gone (and continue to go) to extensive lengths to collect, catalog, and experiment with most of the regional flora; but many in the house could be considered to be "warped."
Dasari has established a niche for itself and as its services grow in need, so do its influences. Dasari maintains relationships with both Orders of the Templarate who request the assistance of the House in many of their endeavors beyond the Scaien Walls.
Appearance - The women are notorious for being ample in chest and hip, and the men tend toward a portly build as well, both by nature and their luxurious lifestyles. Hair colors tend toward red or the middle ranges of brown and blonde, with almost all family members having a tint of red in their hair whatever its shade. Nearly all Dasari nobles, regardless of gender, use herbal-based perfumes and cosmetics to enhance their appearance. In short, they are one of the most civilized houses in Gol Krathu by outward appearance.
The philosophy of the house is always to find out new things. New experiments. New plants. New concoctions. New effects. New studies.
The role we're looking for: a noble in the Medical Branch. Specifically, we're looking for someone interested in starting out as an Archivist.
Archivist: Someone that records the findings of both physicians and herbalists, heads research projects, collect notes, and maintains and updates the House library.
Send applications to tuluki_nobles@armageddon.org.
Include the following:
* Account name
* GDB account name
* Name of your proposed character
* Description of your proposed character
* Background of your proposed character
o If you are not very familiar with the House you are applying for, we can provide some guidance, but just keep it vague if you're unsure. You can revise the background assuming you are approved and are given access to the documentation.
* Your usual playtimes and your expectations of future playtimes
* How familiar are you with Tuluk and Tuluki politics? Pick a letter and explain.
o A. Very Familiar (I make up a new Tuluki parting phrase every RL day that is some variation of "walk in/on/around His _____," and I know each House like the back of my hand--which, of course, has a seven-pronged star on it.)
o B. Familiar (I can find my way around Tuluk and know, in general, what is going on with the Houses, but am not too familiar with the internal affairs of each one.)
o C. Slightly Familiar (I know where the Sanctuary is and I know that there aren't any gemmers and that they hate magick, but who do I bow to?)
o D. Not Familiar (Striasiri? I used to own a '98 Dodge Striasiri.)
o E. Other (explain)
Please get your applications in by 11:59 PM EST on Friday, August 21.
This is amazingly cool. I don't know what kind of playtime the staff are hoping for or if this is on topic here, but it's exactly the kind of role I'd like to see more of! Again, I don't know what the staff hope for but I could see it being a lower time commitment than many roles.
Reading that advert made me all weak in the knees.
*swoon*
Quote from: staggerlee on August 13, 2009, 11:01:53 PM
Quote from: Morgenes on August 13, 2009, 09:26:42 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on August 13, 2009, 02:42:28 PM
Much of the problem with skill advancement could probably be taken care of if skill timers counted down while offline.
...
Note, this post makes an assumption that skill timers work this way in Armageddon. We will not say how it specifically works, but suffice it to say that based on the fact that I am posting this, I might be implying that this may be a false assumption.
To be totally honest, skill advancement is the least of my worries with casual characters.
I brought it up because skill advancement is the most readily apparent achievement in terms of character development, especially since casual players won't have the time and ability to develop their character through numerous interpersonal relationships. If a casual player is achievement-oriented at all, chances are that skills will be either the primary basis for a sense of accomplishment, or will be necessary to the achievement of other accomplishments (coins, gear, etc.).
I was going to wait till I had time to read to the end of this thread, but its eating into my 1 hour so I will get this off now.
It is possible to survive in Arm on 1 hour a day if you are content to be a mediocrity ie to be poor, to never excel.
Dreams are more important than goals and your occupation, if you have one, is a lesser strand in your weaving. The bonds or friendship are more important to you who have few, than your friends who have many. And you may miss out on enemies.
You play to a different rythmn, literally one day at a time. Maybe you are more aware of the turning weeks and months. And longevity is a bonus.
Thinking back to my life time bynner, she was always poor (and weak) because I couldn't go on many contracts. It was mainly a social role I guess. But she was involved in heaps of plots that noone else was, because they were all in her head, well most of them. I found it a very satisfying years play, I think she had 20 days on her. Still plenty of time to make strong relationships.
But still , I have never known anything better.
I would endorse the idea of a "messenger". Yes please.
Gotta go, past time I was back under my rock.
PS There are some exciting suggestions in this thread!
Quote from: solera on August 14, 2009, 03:15:44 PM
I was going to wait till I had time to read to the end of this thread, but its eating into my 1 hour so I will get this off now.
It is possible to survive in Arm on 1 hour a day if you are content to be a mediocrity ie to be poor, to never exell.
Dreams are more important than goals and your occupation, if you have one is a lesser strand in your weaving. The bonds or friendship are more important to you who have few, than your friends who have many. And you may miss out on enemies.
You play to a different rythmn, literally one day at a time. Maybe you are more aware than of the turning weeks and months. And longevity is a bonus.
Thinking back to my life time bynner, she was always poor (and weak) because I couldn't go on many contracts. Iy was mainly a social role I guess. But she was involved in heaps of plots that noone else was, because they were all in her head, well most of them. I found it a very satisfying years play, I think she had 20 hours on her. Still plenty of time to make strong relationships.
But still , I have never known anything better.
I would endorse the idea of a "messenger". Yes please.
Gotta go, past time I was back under my rock.
The point is to make casual play entertaining for a broader portion of the current and potential playerbase, not merely for those saints who can find inner enjoyment and tranquility in being perma-newbs.
In addition to exploring ways to provide viable roles to casual players, it makes sense to also investigate ways to make the skill grind less of an arduous and difficult task -- especially in certain areas.
I know one of those areas has always been in the area of sparring. There are no communal sparring areas within either city-state that independents, off-peak players, or other such folks could go to learn their trade. Most people have to choose between fighting critters outdoors, finding a secluded building, or choosing a remote area of the city. I think a far better use of space and planning would be to create a communal fighting area that accepted annual or lifetime memberships from players and would simply provide space where players could train together should they wish.
> Members of different clans could still find training partners if their play-times don't seem to align with the other clan mates.
> Independents could train and practice with one another without resorting to strange or unrealistic choices.
> Some PC's might even take up roles as an instructor or teacher, and hang around nearby offering their services to aspiring fighters.
> Mercenaries could likely ply their trade and use the area as a way of recruiting new men or even finding potential work.
> Merchants and employers might benefit from being able to have a consolidated place where "good fighting men/women" were located.
Now, I intend for this to be perceived simply as a suggestion that could improve one small facet of the game for players with combat-oriented characters that have limited hours, off-peak schedules, or a dislike for clan life.
-LoD
Quote from: LoD on August 14, 2009, 05:18:16 PM
Public sparring areas
-LoD
I dig this idea alot. It also has the added benefit of providing a whole new way (well, sort of) to murder somebody without being nailed by crimecode.
And everybody could see you do it.
Sorry, didn't read the whole thread, but just offering my opinions as a casual player.
Skill advancement is really the least of my worries. Hell, if my character improves by say... 1 point per day, and I play only one hour a day, he pretty much gets to 100 points in 100 days. But since he doesn't play often, doesn't explore the world and such, he doesn't die by 100 days. Other people logging on every day, probably get like 100 points in 20 days, but die within 30 days. So, in essence, I still get a lot of advancement with the character, and it's sort of funny when he pops up from nowhere and beats several cocky newbies in a fight.
What sucks:
- It's difficult to get along with others. Nobody sees you often, nobody remembers you, and people generally avoid relying on a casual player.
- Not easy to log off! The "play as a ranger" advice only works if I want to play as a ranger! Sandstorms make logging off annoying, and while there are quit zones, I don't want to memorize where they are. Heck, if I'm playing casually, I'm not going to "quit test" every room just to find them. I'm in the game to enjoy getting in-character, and looking for quit zones does not help.
- RPIs. It's incredibly rare to find one that lasts for less than an hour. I don't want to tell my wife that "I can't pick you up from work today, honey, because my character's in the middle of a mission and will get ganked by the sorcerer and his pet undead bahamet if I disconnect within 3 hours". I can't disappear just like that either, because the group hired/trained me for the past few RL weeks and both staff and players need the character there.
- Impossible to have plans and stories that rely on others. I can make friends that will defend me with their life. I can make enemies who promise to kill me the next time they see me. I could find out some super secret thing and rush to tell my boss. But playing off-peak, I don't bump into people often, and the next time I hear about them, they're already dead. That's just incredibly frustrating.
- OOC tendencies (log on/off times) make it easier to recognize the player. And as they live a lot longer, new characters might know a lot about me, because their previous characters interacted with me. It's not a serious deal, but it's quite annoying.
I just have a few observations:
When you say "quit zone", what exactly do you mean? Quit-rooms appear quite readily on my screen, right next to the exits from the room. As far as ranger-quit, cities are pretty obvious, compared to the wilderness.
As far as knowing old PC's with new ones, I'll admit: I do it, but only if the PC is notable. Every so often, I'll bring up an RPT in the past because it was conceivable that my current character would have attended it. I predict that at least one of my future characters will have "attended" the opening of the Tuluki arena, if only to initiate a conversation.
To actually contribute to this thread, I think that casual players should pick a role better suited for their time. If you're a warrior/whatever begging for PC contact, play a mercenary, or someone who independently hires their skills. A merchant? Buy a few nice items from one city, then set up shop in another. Your mystique as a "traveling merchant" will actually be aided by your unavailability.
The tavern quit rooms are reasonably easily-found within cities, and rarely beyond two or so minutes of spam-walking. However, when I'm pressed for time I might firstly only have some fifteen minutes to spend in-game; might secondly not know precisely when I'm going to need to leave right away; and might thirdly not feel too keen to look a spam-walking fool. Having all rooms be quit rooms would help my casual play.
I'm really not fond of the "role better suited to my time" thing. In that sense, skill advancement is a bitch. It's difficult to survive outside a clan. It's difficult to stay active in a clan when logging in 60 minutes a week. A few clans suck utterly for playing casually because they have some pure RP routine that takes forces a RL time and they discourage logging off during these routines. Log off after the end of every sparring session and I look like a twink.
And yeah, the quit rooms are everywhere, but they're far away. The walking delay is a bitch, especially when you have to cross 14 rooms to get into a bar. Sometimes I want to log off now. Sometimes I just want a casual game I could play for 10 mins and get back to work later... not spend 5 mins walking to the bar, finding nobody there and another 5 minutes walking back. It's not easy outdoors either, because some creature's out there to kill you. I know where the cities are but my stamina means I'd have to wait for 5-15 RL minutes to get there and another few minutes to get into a quit room!
It's just too much of a hassle to play the game casually. I suppose the biggest problem is that a lot of stuff in Arm cost RL time. Healing, walking, etc, can cost huge swathes of time :-\
(BTW, I like the idea of travelling merchant or mercenary, though :))
Quote from: LoD on August 10, 2009, 02:24:39 PM
One of the threads in Player Announcements recently touched upon the desire of a few veteran players, not currently playing a character, lamenting the fact that the achieving success and having fun, admittedly by their personal definitions of those terms, cannot realistically accomplished in current design of Armageddon. The argument appears to be that the current design mandates a time commitment to maintain relationships, develop skills, and further plot lines that becomes prohibitive for the casual gamer.
I like this thread. I'm definitely experiencing this problem.
It's intimidating to me to log into my char and know that if I take a month off, when I log back in everyone I know is dead.
The people who have replaced them will all treat my (year-old) character as a noob.
This makes it hard for me to play these days. Very daunting barrier-to-entry.
Quote from: ibusoe on August 20, 2009, 08:40:07 AM
It's intimidating to me to log into my char and know that if I take a month off, when I log back in everyone I know is dead.
The people who have replaced them will all treat my (year-old) character as a noob.
This makes it hard for me to play these days. Very daunting barrier-to-entry.
Some of this can be helped, but some cannot. The nature of the game will find a great many people dead every week, and especially every month, and there's really no way for you to avoid the feelings you associate with that fact.
However, you could consider roles that are not so dependent upon other players and social networking:
> Pursue a personal goal that encourages player interaction, but doesn't require sustained, or even repeated, contact with them.Loremaster/Storyteller - You could easily spend time simply speaking with all of these new faces, asking for their accounts of major events or accumulating rumors, learning about aspects of the game ICly, and then choose to relay those "stories" as a performance to a tavern full of wide-eyed new faces.
> Choose a character that specializes in working with "newer" characters.Middleman Merchant - One of my favorite things to do as a merchant was to hang around in commonly visited shops (i.e. weapons and armor) and offer to get players a better price on their wares for a small cut of the savings. This doesn't really require you to be in a sustained relationship in order to interact frequently with people and gain in skill simultaneously.
City Escort - Take it either way -- as a piece of arm candy practiced in the finer arts of conversation, or as a burly warrior smelling of oiled carru leather, helping people maneuver through the city or even providing companionship may lead to some interesting scenes or events.
> Choose a character who's rarity is, perhaps, part of their charm or fun.Annual Performer - Whether it be a musical or artistic rendition, your inability to log into the game on a daily basis may help bolster the reputation and the interest in seeing this certain character perform. With a simple post upon the boards announcing your upcoming show, turn every play session into a mini-RPT and your name may actually circulate more readily than a character who has the time to play every day.
Those are just a few examples, but you get the idea. There may be ways to develop a character concept where you achievements and fame aren't linked to the consistency of your play-times, but more to the content and rarity of your appearances. This may or may not help your immediate situation, but perhaps it would help with future concepts or ideas?
-LoD
Quote from: ibusoe on August 20, 2009, 08:40:07 AM
The people who have replaced them will all treat my (year-old) character as a noob.
You should never have this problem if you've developed your character to have a "strong personality". New characters are notorious for having weak interactions, so if you have a
strong impression then people treat you as a valued RP commodity, I've found.
It's unfortunate that this is the case, but you need to engage players to have them see you as a worthwhile expenditure of their time.
My longest lived character was 12d playing time, I think... 3 RL months' time. (I had a lot of free time, okay?) You could say I'm a newbie character veteran.
Quote from: Is Friday on August 20, 2009, 01:30:13 PM
Quote from: ibusoe on August 20, 2009, 08:40:07 AM
The people who have replaced them will all treat my (year-old) character as a noob.
New characters are notorious for having weak interactions, so if you have a strong impression then people treat you as a valued RP commodity, I've found.
It's true.
delurk.
I only read the first and last pages.
The time commitment issue is one of the major reasons I haven't played Armageddon in the last N years. It has nothing to do with skills, it has to do with time. Of my last 2 characters, one was a merchant that... actually pissed me off greatly not due to skills, but due to _player_ culture an player expectations that the merchant interact with in-game skills a certain way, rather than have realistic conversations about $xyz that they wanted. The other was a quite aged sorcerer that, considering the duration of his existence (and the percentage of stuff powerlevelly branched early) used maybe 3% of his skillset during the "successful" portion of his life. That character could have been a fresh character as well, with minimal change to his interactions.
Anything I actually want to do in game I can do with a fresh character.
What I can't do is break down the _player_ culture that expects a certain time commitment. I can't break the _player_ culture that bases interactions based on server side skill levels. Occasionally you see in-game people recognize that a character is being played by a new player, and give them leniency and/or try to guide. That's a good thing. But once a player is vaguely competent, no leniency is given, and a character is expected to play his "coded" skills and skill levels.
This of course provides a conundrum. A skill oriented character is easy... you could play that casual... but if I wanted to kill stuff, why would I play Armageddon? A socially oriented character doesn't need skills, but does need the playing time to command the attention of the characters (s)he desires to socialize with.
I'm not really sure where I'm going with this. I think it's a social problem more than a code problem, but don't really have a good answer. Possibly some of it is due to the "harsh" aspect - if a character has to try hard to get their sustenance, they (people that don't know other ways) have to worry about "code" to survive, resulting in too much player worrying about "code". There might also be an effect on players due to Armageddon and its community's focus on "the rules". There is a lot of "don't do X" sorts of things, rather than a focus on getting players to think about the 5% of the time that it's actually ok to do X. This also tends to generate rigid thinking that looks for an authority - and "the code" is a convenient final arbiter. This leads to back to the "coded abilities define the player" mindset that seems to hit some portion of the playerbase.
I don't really know how to change it. It's pretty entrenched at this point, with over a decade of play with the current style. It's a problem, in my opinion, because like many other things, it takes time to train a person to understand that RPI games aren't about killing things, or raising skills, but about the shared storytelling experience. By the time a player is well trained, many of them end up with commitments that don't allow the time required to do a good job of it.
I do think that the long standing "no IC info" policy isn't a good idea for long term growth of the game. If "the story" were more public, it makes it easier for people with less time commitment to "be involved" in a tertiary way. Obviously not everything should be (immediately) public, but the majority is probably kept more secret than it needs to be. Instead, players should be trained to understand the difference between personal knowledge and character knowledge and play accordingly. My f-up on that simulacrum event was due to not really understanding the game (yes, a year or two into playing, I still didn't really get it, due to the culture of the people that recruited me) - and at the time, there wasn't really any good explanation out there; it had to be picked up as you go.
I've been pondering setting up a game using a popular IP to draw people into the RPI genre with a somewhat more forgiving environment.. but, time availability owning me there, too, don't think it's going to happen.
relurk
(next remembering that Armageddon > all, and that I should check the board for no reason: months)
Damn. I just lost a big post and I'm too tired to try and remember it all and retype it.
Very long story short. It really sucks to have no choice but to play flavor characters or not play at all. I've tried many and they do not keep my interest enough for me to waste what little time I have playing, messing around with them.
For reasons that I don't feel like going into detail typing out again, the coded aspects are every bit as important to playing a character for long term as the social ones. But, there has to be a balance between the two for it to work. I'm a person that cannot enjoy the game without both, (if I could, I would be playing a mush or be playing World of Warcraft, both of which do not satisfy me for the same reasons I'm having trouble with Arm now)in my brief amount of time that I have to play, I could make some things happen that would be entertaining for me and for those I get to interact with, if I didn't have to sacrifice one for the other or take so long in going about it that I lose interest before I ever get to that point. I personally find it much easier to create small plots (with some character types) when they have some sort of coded skills that apply to them staying alive to do so without soaking up all their time (logged in) to get there.
There has to be a way that this can be improved, both socially and codedly, to lessen this issue without making those who have all the playing time in the world feel somehow cheated.
All I know is, I personally wouldn't feel cheated whatsoever if the situation were reversed. I would feel rewarded that there would be more people sticking aorund (even in short spurts over a much longer period of time) than knowing that we were losing people due to the casual unfriendliness of the game as it currently works.
It'd be nice if the doorman to many of the clans (or appropriate other npcs for those clans/groups w/o official compounds) worked as message boards. That way a PC can "tell" them that the PC wants to speak with a recruiter. Clan PCs with the ability to recruit would be able to read the message board and then be on the look out to hire.
I really like the idea of clan water holes actually able to self-fill.
Honestly, I'd really like to be able to email the MUD with my play times and be told which clans are active for my times.
I read the first and last page (8 pages is a lot!)
Quote from: LoD on August 10, 2009, 02:24:39 PMWhat I would like to explore in this thread are ways that gap could be bridged, or at least shortened, so that casual players (~1 hour/day) would have a better chance of enjoying the game.
I don't think the problem is that it isn't possible to achieve success as a casual player. The problem is this game is so much fun that you can't play casually. You either play a lot, or you don't play at all. Trying to play only a little bit is doomed to failure. As you begin enjoying yourself you'll inevitably begin playing more and more.
IMO this isn't a problem that should be fixed ;)
I started playing organised D&D games last year, which is the epitome of casual gaming and pretty much the anti-Armageddon. Here are the things I miss:
* Permadeath - at the end of every 4 hour game if you died somehow (the games are built to ensure you almost never die), you're magically brought back to life :(
* Everyone sucking when they start - In the latest version of D&D you're actually competent from level 1. You won't say "oh shit" at the mere sight of a single spider.
* Roleplaying - Its essentially a hack and slash game. Sure its called a ROLEPLAYING game, but it is nowhere near the level of Armageddon. EVERY character is skilled in combat. You can't play a merchant or a noble's aide :(
* In game actions have in game consequences - Certain platyers talk smack the instant they see a templar or nobleman! And the guidelines for running the game are such that the player isn't going to get killed or spend a month in jail!
* Fear and paranoia - People are so trusting in D&D. Largely because.....
* Being evil - in D&D they not only put labels such as "evil" and "good" onto actions, you're expected to play a non-evil character. So disatisfying.
* Roleplaying - Yeah I know have this twice, but a lot D&D doesn't have
roleplaying, but
rollplaying. You don't have to roleplay being diplomatic, or lying, or trying to determine whether or not someone is lying. You simply roll a dice and it does it all for you. *mumble mumble*
* Twinks and powergamers - The system not only allows people to twink out and powergame, it encourages them to *mumble mumble*
On the other hand, it does have some good points:
* Simple rules - A new version of D&D has been released and I often get into arguments over those who liked the older version better. I agree with those older players on every single point except for the complexity of the rules. I like the simple code Armageddon has (from an end-user point of view Armageddon's code is much simpler when compared with the old D&D rules ;)). It allows you to ignore the rules and just roleplay. They of course say you need complex rules in order to roleplay. Unfortunately none have decided to give Armageddon a try so I can't prove them wrong.
* Social life - I now have one! I haven't had a real social life since 2002, which is funnily enough the year I began playing Armageddon (although I don't actually blame Armageddon for that. I was dealing with a lot of issues back then and Armageddon was a good escape from it all).
Yeah, that's it. Only two advantages for all those disadvantages, and one of those advantages is simply something Armageddon shares. Although I do admit the other advantage is a pretty good one ;) Also many of my negative comments are for the Organised games. Home games (games you make up yourself and play with close friends) are able to get around some of those points. Although it takes a fair bit of effort to get people outside of the "organised game" mindset and into a
roleplaying mindset.
Oh, there was one more disadvantage I forgot to mention. The game is so tantalisingly familiar to me that it simply makes me miss Armageddon even more! For example I was writing an adventure for a local gaming group and I was told to make the location as harsh and terrible as possible. So I basically wrote a typical day in the city of Allanak with templars and commoners galore. There's a good chance I got a bit carried away and made it a bit too harsh (I was able to stop myself from including neckers and cannibalistic halflings. But I was so tempted), and I had SO much fun doing it that I had to pop in and check out the old place.
Of course, all of this is probably massively off-topic. But allow an old man to reminisce ;)
Quote from: LoD on August 20, 2009, 10:24:29 AM> Pursue a personal goal that encourages player interaction, but doesn't require sustained, or even repeated, contact with them.
Loremaster/Storyteller - You could easily spend time simply speaking with all of these new faces, asking for their accounts of major events or accumulating rumors, learning about aspects of the game ICly, and then choose to relay those "stories" as a performance to a tavern full of wide-eyed new faces.
> Choose a character that specializes in working with "newer" characters.
Middleman Merchant - One of my favorite things to do as a merchant was to hang around in commonly visited shops (i.e. weapons and armor) and offer to get players a better price on their wares for a small cut of the savings. This doesn't really require you to be in a sustained relationship in order to interact frequently with people and gain in skill simultaneously.
City Escort - Take it either way -- as a piece of arm candy practiced in the finer arts of conversation, or as a burly warrior smelling of oiled carru leather, helping people maneuver through the city or even providing companionship may lead to some interesting scenes or events.
> Choose a character who's rarity is, perhaps, part of their charm or fun.
Annual Performer - Whether it be a musical or artistic rendition, your inability to log into the game on a daily basis may help bolster the reputation and the interest in seeing this certain character perform. With a simple post upon the boards announcing your upcoming show, turn every play session into a mini-RPT and your name may actually circulate more readily than a character who has the time to play every day.
Those are just a few examples, but you get the idea. There may be ways to develop a character concept where you achievements and fame aren't linked to the consistency of your play-times, but more to the content and rarity of your appearances. This may or may not help your immediate situation, but perhaps it would help with future concepts or ideas?
-LoD
These are all great suggestions. They don't address the Crackageddon factor. But they are still good :)
A simple coded change that would help casual players (and also marginally benefit players with much more time to play), would be to have all "power pools" slowly regenerate during logged-off time. The power pools (stamina, stun, and mana) exist primarily to limit how often skills can be used; and for the casual player, logging in after two RL days only to find that his/her power pools are just as drained as when logging off is quite a deterrent to play.
If power pools regenerated at a rate of, for example, five points per hour of real time logged off; then a casual player could log out at 30/100 stun, log back in 23 hours later, and find that stun was fully regenerated--and thus the casual player could immediately begin to attempt to find other PCs to communicate or play with. There would be almost no benefit to just logging off for a couple of hours, because power pools would not have regenerated far enough to accomplish much at all.
I probably wouldn't include the health pool in a change like this, though.
This is somewhat similar to the change to drunk code that was made at the beginning of the year. Because of that change, it's now much more possible to casually play a PC who gets drunk frequently, since drinking doesn't necessarily have to interfere with "getting stuff done" in game. (Before, attempting to play a lush on only 1 hour per day was maximally frustrating.)
I don't believe that spice effects were included in that change made to drunk code, but I don't see why they wouldn't wear off as well. That would have both advantages and disadvantages for PCs. For the casual player who wants to RP a spice fiend, it would make that role have more meaning--since every time they logged on, they would have to be looking for their fix. As it is, with spice effects not wearing off while logged out, there's much less urgency to finding a fix for a casual player.
I think that's a great contribution to the relief of the casual gamer's plight. I would extend it to include health, with specific criteria. For example - if you logged out below 50% of your max health, then logging in more than 5 RL hours later would bring you to 51% max health. Considering that 5 RL hours is approximately 5 game-days, that should be sufficient to allow you to roleplay your recovery, and still emphasize that you -need- to recover, still, without requiring you to immediately type "sleep" upon logging in.
I mean, even if you were "near death" when you had to log out to go on vacation, surely when you return a RL week later, you're either gonna be dead, or WELL on your way to recovery, if not fully recovered. I mean, that's a half-month, game time. Perhaps that could be added to the criteria so it'd be something like:
40-50% returns after 5 hours to 51%, after 24 hours to 60% (nothing better than that)
30-39% returns after 5 hours to 40%, after 24 hours to 51%, after 72 hours to 60%
20-29% returns after 5 hours to 30%, after 24 hours to 40%, after 72 hours to 50%
10-19% returns after 5 hours to 20%, after 24 hours to 30%, after 72 hours to 40%
Under 10% returns after 5 hours to 10% or +10, whichever is higher, after 24 hours to 20%, after 72 hours to 30%
Yeah, I'm not specifically opposed to having health regen during logged-out time, just there would need to be sensible parameters for it so that it doesn't get abused.
You can sleep for like 5 minutes and go from 1 hp to 100. If you're a wiz with bandaging, you can go from 1 hp to 50 in the time it takes you to spit out an emote. I really don't see how that's much of a deterrent to playing at all.
Quote from: Synthesis on September 01, 2009, 06:20:41 AM
You can sleep for like 5 minutes and go from 1 hp to 100. If you're a wiz with bandaging, you can go from 1 hp to 50 in the time it takes you to spit out an emote. I really don't see how that's much of a deterrent to playing at all.
I was talking about power pools, not health regen. And, for a casual player, a place to sleep may either not be available, or it may just take too long to get to, in their available playtime.
Based on some of the ideas put forward in this thread, I made this suggestion (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,36316.msg472979.html#msg472979) in the Arm Reborn forum for a Quit Rest option.
-LoD
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 01, 2009, 11:39:53 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on September 01, 2009, 06:20:41 AM
You can sleep for like 5 minutes and go from 1 hp to 100. If you're a wiz with bandaging, you can go from 1 hp to 50 in the time it takes you to spit out an emote. I really don't see how that's much of a deterrent to playing at all.
I was talking about power pools, not health regen. And, for a casual player, a place to sleep may either not be available, or it may just take too long to get to, in their available playtime.
Stamina stun and mana regenerate even faster than health...so...what's the problem? This seems like a very trivial concern.
Mana only regens fast - depending on a few different things. Depending on the same few different things, mana can regen gruelingly slowly as well. As in - it takes 15 RL minutes to regen just enough to cast at a low level. If you're just practicing, in a safe place, who cares. If you logged out doing something important or in a risky area it can be a big deal. If you're a casual player (which is the actual concern here - how to accommodate the casual player without pissing everyone else off) - then 15 minutes is a long time to be sitting there waiting to regen mana. It won't be a game-killer to allow for absences from the game by resetting certain "power tools" as Gimf puts it, to some amount higher than what they were when you logged out, if applicable.
Quote from: Lizzie on September 01, 2009, 06:19:23 PM
Mana only regens fast - depending on a few different things. Depending on the same few different things, mana can regen gruelingly slowly as well. As in - it takes 15 RL minutes to regen just enough to cast at a low level. If you're just practicing, in a safe place, who cares. If you logged out doing something important or in a risky area it can be a big deal. If you're a casual player (which is the actual concern here - how to accommodate the casual player without pissing everyone else off) - then 15 minutes is a long time to be sitting there waiting to regen mana. It won't be a game-killer to allow for absences from the game by resetting certain "power tools" as Gimf puts it, to some amount higher than what they were when you logged out, if applicable.
Won't somebody think of the 'gickers? :'(
I don't know much about mana regen, but I have found for some PCs that stamina and stun are slow to regen as well. It's pretty hampering to log in when you may have only half an hour to an hour to play, and have to sit around doing nothing for 10 to 20 minutes while waiting for whichever power pool you need to regen. It's a recipe for idling, rather than jumping right in and actually actively playing with whatever small amount of time you've got.
Eh, if you really only have 30 minutes to play, you're better off not logging in at all. Otherwise you're just about guaranteed to run over that time limit, no matter what you're doing.
Beyond that, the only times I've ever seen stamina regen painfully slowly is in places where it's supposed to regen painfully slowly.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of doing stuff to help casual players. I just think this particular idea is trivial.
Well, in an environment where things are currently tuned to actually work against casual players, even small changes could be helpful. I'd love to see big changes or system restructuring so that the game is enjoyable and playable for casual players; but that seems like hoping for too much.
I would say the bigger problem for magickers is the fact that you have to wait for ages for some spell effects to wear off. Hell, that pissed me off even when I had eight hours a day to play.
Good point. It would make sense for magickal effects to be reset during logged-off time like drunkenness is, too.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 01, 2009, 07:40:06 PM
Good point. It would make sense for magickal effects to be reset during logged-off time like drunkenness is, too.
Well...that's a double-edged sword, really. Better would be the ability to cancel said effects at will...but we've already unraveled that thread, let the kittens play with it, vacuumed it up, and let it burn out the motor.
It's at this point in threads where I long for 2.ARM, and then go play some Sims for the hour I have available.
I don't see why time logged out isn't treated as time logged in. Concerning skills, regen, etc.
It's not like I can quit, come back in and be better, I would need to be quit out for the same period of time I was resting. While you're at it, let me quit in the desert as a non-ranger and have that penalize my health and stam.
Quote from: jmordetsky on September 01, 2009, 08:23:56 PM
I don't see why time logged out isn't treated as time logged in. Concerning skills, regen, etc.
It's not like I can quit, come back in and be better, I would need to be quit out for the same period of time I was resting. While you're at it, let me quit in the desert as a non-ranger and have that penalize my health and stam.
Probably because if I'm chasing you down trying to finish you off (lets say ... with arrows so that you aren't subject to the post combat quit delay) and you quit out, then log back in later fully refreshed and ready for a fight it's a bit unfair. Where as if you have to rest somewhere to heal up and stay in the game I have a chance of finding you.
It's exactly like you could quit, come back in and be better; not immediately of cours but still while you were quit out, no one has the ability to affect your character at all; you're more invulnerable than a 100+ days played defiler while quit out of the game.
The desert non-ranger quit thing is another story entirely, but since it isn't related to the thread at hand I'll leave it alone.
lol...so what are you going to do, "camp the spawn" where they quit out and hope they log back in wounded?
That's absurd.
Quote from: Synthesis on September 02, 2009, 12:25:11 AM
lol...so what are you going to do, "camp the spawn" where they quit out and hope they log back in wounded?
That's absurd.
That is absurd, it's also ... not at all what I said.
But when a PC is wounded by something, anything, some folks probably feel like that PC should go about being exposed and vulnerable as they heal, the way things are coded to be now. Being able to heal up while quit out of the game negates that, and makes it a risk free activity ... so I'd rather not have it, and keep the danger that comes along with trying to recover from near fatal wounds in game.
Quote from: musashi on September 02, 2009, 11:44:19 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on September 02, 2009, 12:25:11 AM
lol...so what are you going to do, "camp the spawn" where they quit out and hope they log back in wounded?
That's absurd.
That is absurd, it's also ... not at all what I said.
But when a PC is wounded by something, anything, some folks probably feel like that PC should go about being exposed and vulnerable as they heal, the way things are coded to be now. Being able to heal up while quit out of the game negates that, and makes it a risk free activity ... so I'd rather not have it, and keep the danger that comes along with trying to recover from near fatal wounds in game.
I think you have a valid point, I don't think it's absurd. But the way I see it there are two ways people feel about this, and they are both valid.
1) I'm wounded, I quit - I should go on feeling vulnerable.
2) I'm wounded, I quit - I log in a RL week later, why am I still fucked up? (more applicably to the thread, why haven't my skills progressed with my IC age?)
With #1 if I quit in desert and don't log in for a week, yea maybe I should still be fuct. (Unless I'm a ranger and at home in the wastes)
With #2 if I quit in my apartment and don't log in for week, do you really think I should still be fuct...I think not.
So it becomes a balance/playability issue because both 1 + 2 are realistic.
I would argue that quit rooms have a comfort factor. An outdoor cave quit, low. A wagon, medium. The bard's barrel, medium-high. My noble estate - v.high. What happens when you quit out should be sensitive to where you quit. I would also then argue (as I think it *is* applicable to the thread) that I should be able to quit wherever/whenever I want and that some rooms for non-rangers should carry penalties. (wastes, alleys, streets).
That really solves all issues. If I quit in the wastes, my learn timers will not reset, my health will not come back, poison will not subside, drunk will make me worse, my mana and stam will be reduce or stay where they are. If I quit in my apartment or a barracks, I will be fine. I can log in a the next day and train without having to "burn off time". Color all that with "unless you are a ranger". In this case all outdoor rooms have a neutral quit factor. Or I would argue, a burglar or assassin and then street quit rooms should be neutral as well.
A point about character age and skill - skills IMHO (which is always right) should be altered by age, not just stats. If I'm a 30 year old warrior who has never sparred in my characters OC life I should be better at it then a 20 year old who has never sparred in his OC life because ICly I've been at for 10 more years. The 20 year old maybe be faster, more fit etc, but that's game balancing again. The arm greeting has said for years "at this time, skills are NOT effected by age". Well, it probably time they should, and with the aging code that effects stats, have it effect skills as well.
For me, I don't play much - if that change went in I could spend more time RPing knowing that I will get some benefit for just keeping my character alive. Taper that with - if someone with the same age, stat, guild sparred everyday - they would be much better at fighting then me.
I hate having to think during the one or two hours I can play a week:
1) Man I better go practice my skills or I'm never going to keep this char alive
2) Where the hell am I going to quit?
Both changes would make casual players viable. I don't even play right now because I can't put "the time" in. Where in arm the time is your whole life.
Make arrows bring about the combat quit timer. Or better yet, add a five minute delay when quitting anywhere that isn't a quit-safe room.
Problem solved.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on September 02, 2009, 01:39:54 PM
Make arrows bring about the combat quit timer. Or better yet, add a five minute delay when quitting anywhere that isn't a quit-safe room.
Problem solved.
Yea I agree with that as well. As much as I dislike SOI - the quit mechanic there where you have a delayed "making camp" when quiting out of a non-quit room is pretty awesome. That and good hunters can detect traces of lingering camps, which I again think rocks.
Those are good points you brought up jmordetsky; and I'd be in favor of a system where quitting in certain areas had an impact on how fast you did or didn't recover.
I'm not really in favor of Qzzrbl's idea about needing a 5 minute delay to quit out of the game because to me that seems to be a suggestion for helping to combat the "twinks" who will quit out of an area to escape immediate IC consequences, and that isn't really what I was worried about in my origional post ... although my example about the arrows and what not could have been phrased better I admit.
My main concern was just that, when a PC is messed up so badly that they need to sleep in order to regain their health, it amounts to them needing to place themselves in a vulnerable state in order to recover and it's that state of being vulnerable that I was in favor of keeping, and not allowing a short-cut around.
Whether a person twinks out and quits with his enemies in hot persuit ... logging back in later, or whether he actually gets away from them back to his hidey hole ... I'd still like him to have to sleep, and enter into that vulnerable position in order to heal himself back up from his near death experience.
But jmordetsky had decent points too about logging out and logging in a RL week later to still be hanging onto life by a thread, and I think the idea he put forth was a good step towards finding a middle ground between one camp's worries and the other's.
Quote from: Old Kank on September 07, 2009, 10:33:47 PM
Some stuff that wasn't about earning income while logged out.
I've probably derailed the quit-work thread enough, so I thought I would shift my train of thought back to this zombie thread.
Would it benefit people to have an "Experience" subguild, that would let players raise a single skill of their choosing by 10-15 points? It would give a hefty bump to the skill you, the player, sees as most valuable to your character concept, but it would have an opportunity cost from the other skills you
wouldn't get by picking a different subguild.
So, instead of having a ranger/weapon crafter, who would have his ranger skills and weapon crafter skills to make things with, you could make a ranger/experience (archery), who would start out twice as good with a bow than a newbie ranger. Or you could start out a warrior with a Byn Trooper-like slashing skill, but not pick up listen, or sneak, or bandage-making.
10 or 15 points in a skill is probably only 20-30 practice sessions, for most skills, for PCs with average wisdom.
As such, it would only be useful for skills that are difficult/impossible to practice without spending exorbitant amounts of money.
Also, restricting it to a single skill would further enhance the tendency to use it on skills that don't require multiple supporting skills for success.
For example, if you were an assassin, you wouldn't put 10-15 extra points into backstab, because backstab is pretty easy to practice, and requires base offense, defense, sneak, hide, and piercing weapons for it to really be successful (at low levels). Instead, just about every assassin would use the extra 10-15 points on poisoning, which is difficult and/or expensive to practice. Warriors wouldn't have any reason to use this at all, as most warrior skills that an indie would use are really easy to practice. Same for rangers. (Rescue can be difficult at times...but you don't really -need- the rescue or guard skill if you're primarily soloing around.) Burglars and pickpockets -might- use it on steal to decrease their initial chances of being caught by the crime code. (This is probably the only time I'd be tempted to use it...but even then, it's pretty easy to practice the skill enough to gain that 15 points the good old fashioned way relatively quickly.)
I don't think this is something that would really help casual players at all, in other words. I think it would be really quite difficult to arrange the benefit/penalty balance of an increased starting skill scheme such that people would actually use it.
Giving up your subclass is a non-starter for casual players, because as an indie (which casual players tend to be, I suspect), 9 times out of 10, your subclass is how you pay for drinks/spice/apartment/etc. Almost nobody wants to take a global hit to maximum skill caps, except perhaps maybe the subset of players who play quick and hard characters who rarely survive to 10 days played.
Quote10 or 15 points in a skill is probably only 20-30 practice sessions, for most skills, for PCs with average wisdom.
How do you know what 10-15 points is, Synthesis? How does Old Kank know for that matter?
What "max points" is Old Kank basing his/her points on? If my subguild "listen" skill only goes up to 15 points max, then allocating 15 points to it, means I'm maxing out my listen skill for my character. Someone who has listen as a main skill for a main guild, might have a 32-point max. Or a 95-point max. Or maybe listen only goes up to 10 points no matter who's got it, and you could easily max out listen and have 5 points left over to allocate to something else if you want.
I'm not asking for answers to this question. In fact I'd rather you -not- answer. The point is, you really should think about what you're posting, because really, it doesn't matter how many points Old Kank typed in his/her post, it was the fact that he/she chose to come up with a suggestion of a point system at all.
I think the idea has merit. Wouldn't even need to be a subguild - maybe, everyone could have "ten points" to toss around, that they could apply to bumping skills. Or maybe, the option of bumping one main_guild skill 10 points, or the option of bumping your choice of two subguild skills an extra 5 points each.
WHATEVER those points end up meaning, which at the present time, mean nothing at all but whatever Old Kank has decided they mean.
Just to toss in my two sids, I think picking a subguild already gives a small bump to those skills. So a weapons crafter would be better at crafting weapons than a merchant who starts out with knife-making or whatnot, however how well you can get good at that particular skill is less for subguilds than the real guild. So is the impression I get when reading the docs, and I believe I heard a similar reply by a staffer.
This is correct.
Quote from: Lizzie on September 08, 2009, 05:23:15 PM
Quote10 or 15 points in a skill is probably only 20-30 practice sessions, for most skills, for PCs with average wisdom.
How do you know what 10-15 points is, Synthesis? How does Old Kank know for that matter?
What "max points" is Old Kank basing his/her points on? If my subguild "listen" skill only goes up to 15 points max, then allocating 15 points to it, means I'm maxing out my listen skill for my character. Someone who has listen as a main skill for a main guild, might have a 32-point max. Or a 95-point max. Or maybe listen only goes up to 10 points no matter who's got it, and you could easily max out listen and have 5 points left over to allocate to something else if you want.
I'm not asking for answers to this question. In fact I'd rather you -not- answer. The point is, you really should think about what you're posting, because really, it doesn't matter how many points Old Kank typed in his/her post, it was the fact that he/she chose to come up with a suggestion of a point system at all.
I think the idea has merit. Wouldn't even need to be a subguild - maybe, everyone could have "ten points" to toss around, that they could apply to bumping skills. Or maybe, the option of bumping one main_guild skill 10 points, or the option of bumping your choice of two subguild skills an extra 5 points each.
WHATEVER those points end up meaning, which at the present time, mean nothing at all but whatever Old Kank has decided they mean.
I'm assuming that pretty much everything works on a 100 point scale, since that's the most obvious and simple base number upon which you would build a skill system. It's not some super-sekrit knowledge...just common sense once you've been gaming as long as I have. Now, once you have some experience with skill progression, you start to notice certain patterns over time (e.g. the first part of the skill curve is easy to progress through, while there's a long plateau for that last 10% or so...that is, the curve is logarithmic when you plot skill vs. time), and for most skills, a 10-15% initial boost that costs you your potential subclass skills just isn't worth it. This is pretty much common sense/common observation for any experienced player, and it has nothing to do with secret knowledge of mechanics or any sort of IC info.
I would roughly guesstimate that, to offset the cost of potential subclass skills, you'd need to boost at least several starting class skills to at least 50% of their maximum for the trade to really be "worth it." Even then, for some class/race combinations (especially elves), this would rarely be used, because you can already "max" them fairly quickly, even playing casually. The initial phase of the logarithmic curve isn't the problem for casual players: it's the long plateau you have to grind through once you've become competent. In other words, front-loading the skill points really decreases their marginal value to the point where they're not worth it. I mean, if you assume a 1-hour skill timer and a 1-point "tick," you can get 10 points in 10 hours quite easily in the initial phase of the curve. However, with the same assumptions on the plateau phase, it may be nearly impossible to get an additional point at all, because the likelihood of abject, skill-increase-producing failure is so low.
That being said, I think this suggestion would be of minor benefit to the casual player. It seems like most of the disadvantages such players face are rooted not in the mechanics of skill progression but in the culture and expectations of other players. That is, few people want an absentee clanmate...few people want to deal with an absentee merchant...few people want to deal with the uncertainty involved in not seeing or hearing from a friend or colleague for a RL week at a time. Most of these problems would more easily be dealt with by establishing legitimate, Staff-supervised means of out-of-game or mixed within/outside-game lines of communication between players. For example, on clan forums, there are usually monthly "check-in" threads where you announce your playtimes, and threads where you can discuss when you will be gone from the game for a period of time. If this functionality were expanded to include indie-to-indie interactions (just as an example), it might make things a little less frustrating.
Oh yeah, then we could just all be indies and play the forum version of the game instead. I'd be all over that like um...buckshot on a deer.
Quote from: Lizzie on September 09, 2009, 06:12:36 AM
Oh yeah, then we could just all be indies and play the forum version of the game instead. I'd be all over that like um...buckshot on a deer.
It wouldn't be all forum-based.
Consider the following scenario:
Merchant Amos posts on the in-game board that he's a new armorcrafter in town, specializing in bejeweled scrab-shell codpieces. He needs people to supply him with scrab shells and gems, and of course he's looking for customers. At the end of the in-game post is his "indie forum" contact info.
Grebbers Malik and Talia go out and kill some scrabs and forage up some gems. They contact Amos via the indie forum to arrange a meeting. (P.S. this really isn't any different from finding someone's mind with the Way. If you really wanted to arrange for the possibility of psionic detection, you could let mindbender PCs browse individual accounts on the indie forum, but that's kind of a stretch.)
They set up a meeting, trade the loot, and go about their business, but Talia puts in a special order for a garnet-nippled scrab-shell bustierre.
As opposed to, you know, Merchant Amos posting on the in-game board, but never getting a response (because he plays way off-peak or only 2 hours per week, and nobody can ever find his mind, so the post just gets buried under the daily "omg new Byn sarge" posts), then going out and ironically getting killed by a scrab while trying to forage for gemstones on his own.
Assuming this type of communication was monitored for appropriate behavior/usage, I don't see anything wrong with it.
I like the indie forum idea.
I'd also like it if indies were held to account the same way other PC's are, as Nyr was talking about, but that was ah ... in another thread I think.
I dunno. This game cannot be all things to all people. I've gone through long stages of playing casually- your roles just adjust to your playtimes. I think that recently, too many people are defining "success" in terms of code. In clan leadership, I believe that consistency is much more important than quantity. Even if you've only on for two hours a week, as long as it's the same to hours (or close to it) and you make it known, you can get a lot done- and save the people relying on you from spam contacting all the time. There's a lot of focus here and in other threads about getting past noob skills- as if it's only then that your character really starts. Being a coded badass can be cool, but this game's fun-ness doesn't rely on it. If you don't play much, it will take you longer to get good. I'm yet to be convinced that that's a problem.
Furthermore. All this recent, endless discussion about skill points / skill maxing / game mechanics used to get you banned around here. What's going on?
Quote from: Uberskaapie on December 16, 2009, 06:42:50 PM
Furthermore. All this recent, endless discussion about skill points / skill maxing / game mechanics used to get you banned around here. What's going on?
Point.