Sparring injuries

[Lizzie]

You could always create a separate function for sparring. Perhaps it could be called "spar"? The "kill" command seems to imply just that: You're trying to kill your target. In a traditional spar you're not so much trying to kill your opponent as you are trying to advance your skills as a fighter. This way, instead of dealing otherwise deadly blows against your opponent, you're simply training. Fewer injuries = more training overall. You could even use this command to train with actual weapons. (at least, in theory)

Because the game isn't intended to be realistic. Realistically, you wouldn't be a warrior/jeweler joining the T'zai Byn and getting trained by some secret rogue drovian/pickpocket with no useful combat skills, who's only been promoted because his Sergeant fell off the shield wall. Realistically, you'd join something like - the Army. or a boxing ring, or a gym, and there would be people who actually have an idea, teaching you what to do.

Sparring is combat. Sparring weapons, can kill, because they're still weapons. If they weren't, you wouldn't be -able- to use them to advance your coded skills. Also, people do have training accidents. Sometimes, on purpose. Sometimes, by mistake. Sometimes, through carelessness.

[Salt Merchant]

Sparring is combat. Sparring weapons, can kill, because they're still weapons. If they weren't, you wouldn't be -able- to use them to advance your coded skills. Also, people do have training accidents. Sometimes, on purpose. Sometimes, by mistake. Sometimes, through carelessness.

Roman Gladiators trained every day, but only fought 3 to 5 times a year. Among other things, they used wooden training weapons called rudis.

These gladiators were valued possessions, and it was rare that they took serious injuring from their training, despite learning to be supremely competent with different weapons and fighting styles. The trainers (ex-gladiators) wouldn't permit it. Too many crippling injuries meant too great a loss in investment.

So it's not unreasonable that characters could learn to fight without hacking each other to pieces or knocking each other senseless on a daily basis.

[Lizzie]

Sparring is combat. Sparring weapons, can kill, because they're still weapons. If they weren't, you wouldn't be -able- to use them to advance your coded skills. Also, people do have training accidents. Sometimes, on purpose. Sometimes, by mistake. Sometimes, through carelessness.

Roman Gladiators trained every day, but only fought 3 to 5 times a year. Among other things, they used wooden training weapons called rudis.

These gladiators were valued possessions, and it was rare that they took serious injuring from their training, despite learning to be supremely competent with different weapons and fighting styles. The trainers (ex-gladiators) wouldn't permit it. Too many crippling injuries meant too great a loss in investment.

So it's not unreasonable that characters could learn to fight without hacking each other to pieces or knocking each other senseless on a daily basis.

The part in my post that reminds you..that in Armageddon, "trainers" are usually NOT ex-gladiators, but are most often poor clueless shmucks who only got the promotion because their superior died...did you miss that?

Most trainers in Armageddon are -not- highly skilled trainers, or even highly-skilled fighters. Most trainers are most often simply whoever has a higher rank than you do, often because he just happened to be lucky enough to not fall off the shield wall that day. Sometimes, the trainer isn't even a higher rank. Sometimes, it's just someone who RPs that he knows more than you do, and has a higher strength stat.

[Salt Merchant]

The part in my post that reminds you..that in Armageddon, "trainers" are usually NOT ex-gladiators, but are most often poor clueless shmucks who only got the promotion because their superior died...did you miss that?

No, I didn't miss that part, but thank you for asking.

Perhaps not every Sergeant is a fearsome Warrior, but so what? By the time they've made Sergeant, they usually have a couple of years of sparring behind them at least. Significant experience even if they aren't gods of war.

Most trainers in Armageddon are -not- highly skilled trainers, or even highly-skilled fighters. Most trainers are most often simply whoever has a higher rank than you do, often because he just happened to be lucky enough to not fall off the shield wall that day. Sometimes, the trainer isn't even a higher rank. Sometimes, it's just someone who RPs that he knows more than you do, and has a higher strength stat.

The Byn, for example, is presumably full of NPCs that know their business. So are the other clans. They tend to have training equipment too, although the only coded way to advance is through sparring. I'd say it's safe to assume that more is going on with regards to training than whacking each other half-dead each day.

[Lizzie]

Fuck it. It's a ridiculous arguement. I definitely would be -against- a code change that would result in risk-free sparring. I -would- like to see a reduction in the frequency of serious injuries..but definitely not any semblence of prevention.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Getting hit at all does the same trick. Scaling back the damage that weapons do would not change this. For the purposes of learning to defend, a nick is the same as a horrendous.

Actually, it's the higher the fail, the higher the gain. If you have a combat character who seems to have "plateaued," go out and fight something with high strength. You'll learn QUICK. (Delerak once suggested I take single hits from mekillot with no armor on. That was BEFORE the reel code.  )

You could always create a separate function for sparring. Perhaps it could be called "spar"?

If I had a nickel for every thread that has started to suggest the mythical "spar" command, I would have... ten or fifteen cents.

Regardless, I still think it's a good idea. I remember when me and my brother used to have sword fights with sticks in the back yard. The intent wasn't to injure (usually), and we never did get injured (except for that one time he took my hat and I speared him in the eye, ftw.)

Because the game isn't intended to be realistic.

Utter fallacy aside, this thread is about bridging the gap between code and realism.

Sparring is combat. Sparring weapons, can kill, because they're still weapons. If they weren't, you wouldn't be -able- to use them to advance your coded skills.

Well, code-wise they are. And, I suppose, if you look at the mdesc they're as good as clubs. (Getting cut with a sparring weapon is BS, for the most part.) Sparring weapons already do slightly less damage, and mercy already slightly dulls down your combat ability. The problem with dulling the weapons to represent how they're INTENDED to be used, in my mind, is that you don't always know how they're INTENDED to be used. I've snuck out of the gates as a Bynner before, broke my good weapon, then spotted a golden carru I wanted to sack, so had to kill it with my sparring weapon. It happens.  If anything needs to be done to the weapon itself, it needs to be wrapped in an inch thick layer of cloth in the mdesc, then dulled a bit more, IMO.

Most trainers in Armageddon are -not- highly skilled trainers, or even highly-skilled fighters. Most trainers are most often simply whoever has a higher rank than you do, often because he just happened to be lucky enough to not fall off the shield wall that day. Sometimes, the trainer isn't even a higher rank. Sometimes, it's just someone who RPs that he knows more than you do, and has a higher strength stat.

The only part of that entire post that even MENTIONED trainers, was this sentence here: "The trainers (ex-gladiators) wouldn't permit it." Where did this argument come from?



Now, FINALLY, to answer the original question: I ignore most sparring "injuries." If I really get a good whopper or two to the face, I'll tdesc the left side of my face being purple, or a black eye, etc. A bloody welt at the most. When an exceptionally large/strong PC knocks me around in the ring with a big sparring weapon, I'll take up a limp, or whatever the case may be. Because I believe players wouldn't be wailing on each other as hard as they codedly do. Having a "holy crap, I'm sorry, you alright? I don't know my own strength!" moment now and then is fine, but 3 times a day, every day? Doubt it.

Whoever said "I play sparring off as half as bad as the code says it is" had tickets to WynFest 2009. (fuck buckets of the stuff. I hand out concerts. )

[Blackisback]

Fuck it. It's a ridiculous arguement. I definitely would be -against- a code change that would result in risk-free sparring. I -would- like to see a reduction in the frequency of serious injuries..but definitely not any semblence of prevention.

You're getting very worked up over a simple suggestion. Why would you be against sparring in such a fashion? I never said it would obscure your ability to go out and bash another trainee's head in, and I certainly never suggested "spar" was a realistic approach (even though you seem to believe I did). It was just a suggestion that would allow people to practice safely and reasonably. It could reduce injury in sparring (which people have said is a problem), it could allow more time for sparring (since serious injuries aren't occurring) and it'd allow people to spar with actual weapons instead of going through the expensive and timely process of acquiring sparring weapons.

Like I said, it was just a suggestion. Don't get so mad at games.

[Lizzie]

I'm not mad. I get frustrated with some players who think it's fun to take things out of context, and respond to these out-of-context things, as if they were the point, rather than the example.

I don't want risk-free sparring in part, because the only way you can improve -raw- defense..is by getting hurt. The only way you can measure -how much you have improved- is by not getting as badly injured as you were the last few times you got injured by sparring.

You won't know that you -really- can't defend yourself for shit, until you're actually fighting someone. And then it's too late. You won't know that you are -so- powerful that you can kill a potential ally who is just needing a beating in the sands, until it's too late. That's what risk-free sparring would do. It would make it impossible for you to know whether or not you're improving, unless you are -not- sparring. So you might as well just not bother sparring at all. OR hope you never get into an actual fight.

[Salt Merchant]

I'm not mad. I get frustrated with some players who think it's fun to take things out of context, and respond to these out-of-context things, as if they were the point, rather than the example.

I don't want risk-free sparring in part, because the only way you can improve -raw- defense..is by getting hurt. The only way you can measure -how much you have improved- is by not getting as badly injured as you were the last few times you got injured by sparring.

You won't know that you -really- can't defend yourself for shit, until you're actually fighting someone. And then it's too late. You won't know that you are -so- powerful that you can kill a potential ally who is just needing a beating in the sands, until it's too late. That's what risk-free sparring would do. It would make it impossible for you to know whether or not you're improving, unless you are -not- sparring. So you might as well just not bother sparring at all. OR hope you never get into an actual fight.

It's not out of context. It's pointing out that it's quite possible to learn to fight well without being repeatedly beaten to a bloody wreck to do it, as happens in the game. And your using PCs as an example does not hold water either, because they are -not- representative of the population as a whole.

Sheesh, give it up already.

[Blackisback]

I'm not mad. I get frustrated with some players who think it's fun to take things out of context, and respond to these out-of-context things, as if they were the point, rather than the example.

I don't want risk-free sparring in part, because the only way you can improve -raw- defense..is by getting hurt. The only way you can measure -how much you have improved- is by not getting as badly injured as you were the last few times you got injured by sparring.

You won't know that you -really- can't defend yourself for shit, until you're actually fighting someone. And then it's too late. You won't know that you are -so- powerful that you can kill a potential ally who is just needing a beating in the sands, until it's too late. That's what risk-free sparring would do. It would make it impossible for you to know whether or not you're improving, unless you are -not- sparring. So you might as well just not bother sparring at all. OR hope you never get into an actual fight.

Sorry to drag this on further, but if anything I think finding out how well you handle yourself in an actual combat situation is a pretty fair idea.

[MarshallDFX]

I think that a spar command would be interesting, just for roleplay fun..  Like play-fighting but coded.  I think that you should learn very slowly from it (or not at all), however.

You catch your blade before a sure hit to the tressy-tressed woman's neck.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I don't think cutting back sparring damage would fuck up your ability to gauge yourself. Put you on a smaller scale, maybe. A hit for 8 HP might be the new monster truck that a hit for 12 used to be, for example.

It's sparring, accidents do happen, but I honestly don't see PC's NOT pulling their punches in sparring.

Hell, I hate mofo's that just spar all day long anyways.

[musashi]

Hey IAmJacksOpinion ... if you're going to quote me in your sig you have to give credit! 

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Hehe. I suck with BBCode

PM me telling me HOW to do it, and the righteous cred is yours.

You sick fuck.



EDITED TO ADD SOMETHING ON-TOPIC: Yar, sparring injuries hurt on Zalanthas. Stain your clothing and such...

[Rhyden]

I dunno, I think sparring should be similar to two really buff dudes beating the holy mother fucking shit out of one another with huge dull bone weapons.

I could be wrong, but I think sparring weapons already are toned down a bit.

Sure, once in a while you'll see a half-giant or buff dwarf fighting that burly mul landing wound upon grevious, but it makes sense. I had a pretty buff warrior character recently who did -very little- damage in combat, but was still half successful. You think -elves- want sparring weapons to be toned down?