Sparring injuries

[Salt Merchant]

Something has to give with regards to sparring. The messages one gets suggest that it's simply murderous, and some people try to play it that way, showing severe injury. But if it is that murderous, it's worthless for training, because realistically over time, sparrers would just reduce each other to cripples.

Any suggestions?

EDIT: Fewer vicious hits and woundings with sparring weapons would be step in the right direction.

[Jdr]

This topic's come up so often, and every single thread has degenerated into the decision to agree to disagree. There's coded ways around being snotted by people if you're markedly worse than them in combat, and it appears that this behavior is more or less accepted by staff and players (for the most part) alike.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I tend to RP sparring injuries as being about half as bad as they seem. Works out fine. I also have no issues RPing cracked bones and so on and so forth. Yes, sparring is dangerous ... but. This actually does give me an idea. I need to make a topic.

[Qzzrbl]

I remember sparring with razors once, and my opponent emoted getting cut wide open (skin -and- armor) by a DULL LENGH OF EFFING BONE!

Seriously people. Just come on. It's sparring. The weapons aren't sharp.

[KankWhisperer]

I remember sparring with razors once, and my opponent emoted getting cut wide open (skin -and- armor) by a DULL LENGH OF EFFING BONE!

Seriously people. Just come on. It's sparring. The weapons aren't sharp.

It used to be possible for a strong dwarf to basically one shot someone with a sparring club so its a weird situation where the code and the situation are a little off.

[Qzzrbl]

They should just add massive negs to HP damage done by sparring weapons and raise stun damage-- if it could be that easy of course.

[Comrade Canadia]

It's a difficult thing to work with. I tend to RP getting beat up, and shallow wound (like a cut on the forehead), but I don't RP permanent damage outside of a scar from daily sparring. When imms say "RP your wounds from sparring" I believe they want you to indicate that if you take a wound to the head that you've been knocked silly, and may have a cut opened up from your armour digging into your flesh.

The biggest issue I have is the fact that sparring weapons draw blood after hard hits. Lots of it. Constantly. The code more or less is telling you that when you get a wound to the neck, it's just like getting hit with a real weapon.

So yeah, less blood, less overall damage, etc... even though I amy RP sparring weapons as doing less damage than they actually do, I'd prefer if I didn't have to ignore code to RP not-being-that hurt.

[Salt Merchant]

One thing that might work well is a flag for sparring weapons. Flagged weapons -never- do more than a moderate amount of damage. Even when wielded by a half-giant. This would have the welcome side effect of letting half-giants participate in sparring rounds with "littles" as well.

[drasik]

There are some wounds that even sparring weapons can't stop though. Taking a hit that takes off half of your health in that one single hit. You -should- RP some sort of major wound, doesn't matter if it's a dull weapon or not, something like that is going to hurt some shit bad.

[razorback]

I've rped broken ribs from a sparring injury, but I try not to go like I'm dying from it, even if I am down 75% of my HP. Just hurting something good.

[Fathi]

There are some wounds that even sparring weapons can't stop though. Taking a hit that takes off half of your health in that one single hit. You -should- RP some sort of major wound, doesn't matter if it's a dull weapon or not, something like that is going to hurt some shit bad.

I think the main reason people often choose not to RP hits like that as a serious injury is because the way the current code handles sparring is incredibly clunky and stupid. Hits like that probably would not happen in a training situation between a skilled fighter and his or her pupil. Sure, accidents happen all the time, but why would a teacher open up the match with immediately attempting to chop their student's head off or punch them into unconsciousness?

In Armageddon, it's impossible to fight someone without actively trying to kill them, brawl code notwithstanding. There's no way to pull your punches, to aim for somebody's less vital spots, to 'tone it down' when fighting a less skilled opponent. It's either "all-out balls to the wall attempted murder" or "stand there and get pummeled."

When the skill/stat disparity between sparring partners is high enough, it's possible to get one- or two-shotted for half your HP every single time you spar. And I'm not even talking about a human fighting a non-human like a dwarf/mul/HG. Skilled PCs are apparently out-of-control whirling death dervishes armed with dulled bone Cuisinart blades that CANNOT BE STOPPED, even by their own players.

Yes, there are multiple workarounds for this situation, and yes, I'm aware of the teach command, but I stand by my point that in most sparring scenarios: I don't think hits like that should be happening, so I don't think too harshly of people who choose to RP their wounds as being less severe.

[jhunter]

I've always just rp'ed that they are much lesser hits than the code displays as far as injuries go. Unless it's a really bad one, then I chalk it up to a bad slip on one combatant's part or the other, a sparring accident.

[musashi]

Erm, the only time my PC ever sparred for practice with another PC we RP'ed the whole thing out and since I was obviously the lesser skilled in the pair I RP'ed getting a good ass whopping.

... ... Then he used the teach command.

[Riev]

I have -often- been a fan of a possible command to "pull back" in power. Just about every person is able to distinguish between a full on brawl, and just trying to land hits for fun. I think it would be nice to just a command that drops skill levels willingly (similar to what other certain IC things can do) only toggleable. The caveat would be, if you drop your skill level to anything below 100%, you don't gain skills.

That way, when you're sparring, you can lower your abilities a bit for the other person, and just not gain skill from it. Chances are, you wouldn't anyway.

The major plus to this, would be one of those "Oh man I'm really getting my ass kicked.." scenarios where you suddenly increase your power by like 20%, similar to dropping a pack full of rocks that the other person didn't even know you had.

[MarshallDFX]

I have -often- been a fan of a possible command to "pull back" in power. Just about every person is able to distinguish between a full on brawl, and just trying to land hits for fun. I think it would be nice to just a command that drops skill levels willingly (similar to what other certain IC things can do) only toggleable. The caveat would be, if you drop your skill level to anything below 100%, you don't gain skills.

That way, when you're sparring, you can lower your abilities a bit for the other person, and just not gain skill from it. Chances are, you wouldn't anyway.

The major plus to this, would be one of those "Oh man I'm really getting my ass kicked.." scenarios where you suddenly increase your power by like 20%, similar to dropping a pack full of rocks that the other person didn't even know you had.

This would actually be really nifty.  Necessary?  Perhaps not.  But damn, it would be -nifty-.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I agree with Riev.

A lot.

In fact, I'd like to be able to moderate -all- of my skills.

Perhaps something like:

>scaleback slashing weapons 10
You scale back your ability with slashing weapons to 10 percent.

>scaleup kick 70
You scale up your ability with kicking to 70 percent.

>scaleback all 0
You scale back all of your abilities to 0 percent.

>scaleup all 100
You scale up all of your abilities to 100 percent.

This would be such an awesome tool for all sorts of scenarios.

[musashi]

It really would be. That idea I like.

[Jdr]

It's definitely more convenient than also carrying 90 pounds of rock whilst beating on Cadet Newjobs. And if you're sparring someone you don't want to embarrass (like a Noble) and want to take a fall convincingly, you'd just set yourself back to 10 percent so it looks like you're actually putting up a fight...

Yeah, definitely thumbs-upping this.

[Pale Horse]

How about "Scale back Blah blah skill":

A little
Some
Half
Most
All

No point value.  Keeps twinks from trying to figure out the numerical values associated with the skill system percentages.

I like this idea, by the way.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm fine with the word game too, but numbers add preciseness, and I don't think that's a bad thing. On the other hand, the words fit with Armageddon's "You can't see it" policy.

'Twinks' who want to know the numbers will know the numbers, words or not. 'Twinks' really are not Armageddon's biggest problem.

[Nyr]

It is very interesting that this came up, for reasons I can't really say yet.

[brytta.leofa]

Is there really any reason that we can't just dial back the damage done with a sparring weapon to nearly nothing?

(Not putting down the scaleback ideas; that's a nicer long-term solution.)

[Riev]

The problem with that, Brytta, at least from what I know, is scaling back the damage would turn it into a spam-every-day sort of situation. You need to get hit, to know how to avoid it. The harder you get hit, the more you remember that next time, blocking the axe with your forehead won't work.

If you constantly have someone nicking and barely grazing you, when you DO get hit by a wounding strike, you should realistically RP it as though your head is about to fall off, because you're never been hit that hard.

Though, in fairness, I've also been hit in the head/body, by a Half-Giant, wielding a weapon, and was out of commission for like 3 IC days. One of them was with a sparring weapon, and it was a one-hit knockout.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Riev, your senario is not exactly accurate. You don't have to get hard to learn to defend. Getting hit at all does the same trick. Scaling back the damage that weapons do would not change this. For the purposes of learning to defend, a nick is the same as a horrendous.

[Blackisback]

You could always create a separate function for sparring. Perhaps it could be called "spar"? The "kill" command seems to imply just that: You're trying to kill your target. In a traditional spar you're not so much trying to kill your opponent as you are trying to advance your skills as a fighter. This way, instead of dealing otherwise deadly blows against your opponent, you're simply training. Fewer injuries = more training overall. You could even use this command to train with actual weapons. (at least, in theory)

[Lizzie]

You could always create a separate function for sparring. Perhaps it could be called "spar"? The "kill" command seems to imply just that: You're trying to kill your target. In a traditional spar you're not so much trying to kill your opponent as you are trying to advance your skills as a fighter. This way, instead of dealing otherwise deadly blows against your opponent, you're simply training. Fewer injuries = more training overall. You could even use this command to train with actual weapons. (at least, in theory)

Because the game isn't intended to be realistic. Realistically, you wouldn't be a warrior/jeweler joining the T'zai Byn and getting trained by some secret rogue drovian/pickpocket with no useful combat skills, who's only been promoted because his Sergeant fell off the shield wall. Realistically, you'd join something like - the Army. or a boxing ring, or a gym, and there would be people who actually have an idea, teaching you what to do.

Sparring is combat. Sparring weapons, can kill, because they're still weapons. If they weren't, you wouldn't be -able- to use them to advance your coded skills. Also, people do have training accidents. Sometimes, on purpose. Sometimes, by mistake. Sometimes, through carelessness.

[Salt Merchant]

Sparring is combat. Sparring weapons, can kill, because they're still weapons. If they weren't, you wouldn't be -able- to use them to advance your coded skills. Also, people do have training accidents. Sometimes, on purpose. Sometimes, by mistake. Sometimes, through carelessness.

Roman Gladiators trained every day, but only fought 3 to 5 times a year. Among other things, they used wooden training weapons called rudis.

These gladiators were valued possessions, and it was rare that they took serious injuring from their training, despite learning to be supremely competent with different weapons and fighting styles. The trainers (ex-gladiators) wouldn't permit it. Too many crippling injuries meant too great a loss in investment.

So it's not unreasonable that characters could learn to fight without hacking each other to pieces or knocking each other senseless on a daily basis.

[Lizzie]

Sparring is combat. Sparring weapons, can kill, because they're still weapons. If they weren't, you wouldn't be -able- to use them to advance your coded skills. Also, people do have training accidents. Sometimes, on purpose. Sometimes, by mistake. Sometimes, through carelessness.

Roman Gladiators trained every day, but only fought 3 to 5 times a year. Among other things, they used wooden training weapons called rudis.

These gladiators were valued possessions, and it was rare that they took serious injuring from their training, despite learning to be supremely competent with different weapons and fighting styles. The trainers (ex-gladiators) wouldn't permit it. Too many crippling injuries meant too great a loss in investment.

So it's not unreasonable that characters could learn to fight without hacking each other to pieces or knocking each other senseless on a daily basis.

The part in my post that reminds you..that in Armageddon, "trainers" are usually NOT ex-gladiators, but are most often poor clueless shmucks who only got the promotion because their superior died...did you miss that?

Most trainers in Armageddon are -not- highly skilled trainers, or even highly-skilled fighters. Most trainers are most often simply whoever has a higher rank than you do, often because he just happened to be lucky enough to not fall off the shield wall that day. Sometimes, the trainer isn't even a higher rank. Sometimes, it's just someone who RPs that he knows more than you do, and has a higher strength stat.

[Salt Merchant]

The part in my post that reminds you..that in Armageddon, "trainers" are usually NOT ex-gladiators, but are most often poor clueless shmucks who only got the promotion because their superior died...did you miss that?

No, I didn't miss that part, but thank you for asking.

Perhaps not every Sergeant is a fearsome Warrior, but so what? By the time they've made Sergeant, they usually have a couple of years of sparring behind them at least. Significant experience even if they aren't gods of war.

Most trainers in Armageddon are -not- highly skilled trainers, or even highly-skilled fighters. Most trainers are most often simply whoever has a higher rank than you do, often because he just happened to be lucky enough to not fall off the shield wall that day. Sometimes, the trainer isn't even a higher rank. Sometimes, it's just someone who RPs that he knows more than you do, and has a higher strength stat.

The Byn, for example, is presumably full of NPCs that know their business. So are the other clans. They tend to have training equipment too, although the only coded way to advance is through sparring. I'd say it's safe to assume that more is going on with regards to training than whacking each other half-dead each day.

[Lizzie]

Fuck it. It's a ridiculous arguement. I definitely would be -against- a code change that would result in risk-free sparring. I -would- like to see a reduction in the frequency of serious injuries..but definitely not any semblence of prevention.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Getting hit at all does the same trick. Scaling back the damage that weapons do would not change this. For the purposes of learning to defend, a nick is the same as a horrendous.

Actually, it's the higher the fail, the higher the gain. If you have a combat character who seems to have "plateaued," go out and fight something with high strength. You'll learn QUICK. (Delerak once suggested I take single hits from mekillot with no armor on. That was BEFORE the reel code.  )

You could always create a separate function for sparring. Perhaps it could be called "spar"?

If I had a nickel for every thread that has started to suggest the mythical "spar" command, I would have... ten or fifteen cents.

Regardless, I still think it's a good idea. I remember when me and my brother used to have sword fights with sticks in the back yard. The intent wasn't to injure (usually), and we never did get injured (except for that one time he took my hat and I speared him in the eye, ftw.)

Because the game isn't intended to be realistic.

Utter fallacy aside, this thread is about bridging the gap between code and realism.

Sparring is combat. Sparring weapons, can kill, because they're still weapons. If they weren't, you wouldn't be -able- to use them to advance your coded skills.

Well, code-wise they are. And, I suppose, if you look at the mdesc they're as good as clubs. (Getting cut with a sparring weapon is BS, for the most part.) Sparring weapons already do slightly less damage, and mercy already slightly dulls down your combat ability. The problem with dulling the weapons to represent how they're INTENDED to be used, in my mind, is that you don't always know how they're INTENDED to be used. I've snuck out of the gates as a Bynner before, broke my good weapon, then spotted a golden carru I wanted to sack, so had to kill it with my sparring weapon. It happens.  If anything needs to be done to the weapon itself, it needs to be wrapped in an inch thick layer of cloth in the mdesc, then dulled a bit more, IMO.

Most trainers in Armageddon are -not- highly skilled trainers, or even highly-skilled fighters. Most trainers are most often simply whoever has a higher rank than you do, often because he just happened to be lucky enough to not fall off the shield wall that day. Sometimes, the trainer isn't even a higher rank. Sometimes, it's just someone who RPs that he knows more than you do, and has a higher strength stat.

The only part of that entire post that even MENTIONED trainers, was this sentence here: "The trainers (ex-gladiators) wouldn't permit it." Where did this argument come from?



Now, FINALLY, to answer the original question: I ignore most sparring "injuries." If I really get a good whopper or two to the face, I'll tdesc the left side of my face being purple, or a black eye, etc. A bloody welt at the most. When an exceptionally large/strong PC knocks me around in the ring with a big sparring weapon, I'll take up a limp, or whatever the case may be. Because I believe players wouldn't be wailing on each other as hard as they codedly do. Having a "holy crap, I'm sorry, you alright? I don't know my own strength!" moment now and then is fine, but 3 times a day, every day? Doubt it.

Whoever said "I play sparring off as half as bad as the code says it is" had tickets to WynFest 2009. (fuck buckets of the stuff. I hand out concerts. )

[Blackisback]

Fuck it. It's a ridiculous arguement. I definitely would be -against- a code change that would result in risk-free sparring. I -would- like to see a reduction in the frequency of serious injuries..but definitely not any semblence of prevention.

You're getting very worked up over a simple suggestion. Why would you be against sparring in such a fashion? I never said it would obscure your ability to go out and bash another trainee's head in, and I certainly never suggested "spar" was a realistic approach (even though you seem to believe I did). It was just a suggestion that would allow people to practice safely and reasonably. It could reduce injury in sparring (which people have said is a problem), it could allow more time for sparring (since serious injuries aren't occurring) and it'd allow people to spar with actual weapons instead of going through the expensive and timely process of acquiring sparring weapons.

Like I said, it was just a suggestion. Don't get so mad at games.

[Lizzie]

I'm not mad. I get frustrated with some players who think it's fun to take things out of context, and respond to these out-of-context things, as if they were the point, rather than the example.

I don't want risk-free sparring in part, because the only way you can improve -raw- defense..is by getting hurt. The only way you can measure -how much you have improved- is by not getting as badly injured as you were the last few times you got injured by sparring.

You won't know that you -really- can't defend yourself for shit, until you're actually fighting someone. And then it's too late. You won't know that you are -so- powerful that you can kill a potential ally who is just needing a beating in the sands, until it's too late. That's what risk-free sparring would do. It would make it impossible for you to know whether or not you're improving, unless you are -not- sparring. So you might as well just not bother sparring at all. OR hope you never get into an actual fight.

[Salt Merchant]

I'm not mad. I get frustrated with some players who think it's fun to take things out of context, and respond to these out-of-context things, as if they were the point, rather than the example.

I don't want risk-free sparring in part, because the only way you can improve -raw- defense..is by getting hurt. The only way you can measure -how much you have improved- is by not getting as badly injured as you were the last few times you got injured by sparring.

You won't know that you -really- can't defend yourself for shit, until you're actually fighting someone. And then it's too late. You won't know that you are -so- powerful that you can kill a potential ally who is just needing a beating in the sands, until it's too late. That's what risk-free sparring would do. It would make it impossible for you to know whether or not you're improving, unless you are -not- sparring. So you might as well just not bother sparring at all. OR hope you never get into an actual fight.

It's not out of context. It's pointing out that it's quite possible to learn to fight well without being repeatedly beaten to a bloody wreck to do it, as happens in the game. And your using PCs as an example does not hold water either, because they are -not- representative of the population as a whole.

Sheesh, give it up already.

[Blackisback]

I'm not mad. I get frustrated with some players who think it's fun to take things out of context, and respond to these out-of-context things, as if they were the point, rather than the example.

I don't want risk-free sparring in part, because the only way you can improve -raw- defense..is by getting hurt. The only way you can measure -how much you have improved- is by not getting as badly injured as you were the last few times you got injured by sparring.

You won't know that you -really- can't defend yourself for shit, until you're actually fighting someone. And then it's too late. You won't know that you are -so- powerful that you can kill a potential ally who is just needing a beating in the sands, until it's too late. That's what risk-free sparring would do. It would make it impossible for you to know whether or not you're improving, unless you are -not- sparring. So you might as well just not bother sparring at all. OR hope you never get into an actual fight.

Sorry to drag this on further, but if anything I think finding out how well you handle yourself in an actual combat situation is a pretty fair idea.

[MarshallDFX]

I think that a spar command would be interesting, just for roleplay fun..  Like play-fighting but coded.  I think that you should learn very slowly from it (or not at all), however.

You catch your blade before a sure hit to the tressy-tressed woman's neck.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I don't think cutting back sparring damage would fuck up your ability to gauge yourself. Put you on a smaller scale, maybe. A hit for 8 HP might be the new monster truck that a hit for 12 used to be, for example.

It's sparring, accidents do happen, but I honestly don't see PC's NOT pulling their punches in sparring.

Hell, I hate mofo's that just spar all day long anyways.

[musashi]

Hey IAmJacksOpinion ... if you're going to quote me in your sig you have to give credit! 

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Hehe. I suck with BBCode

PM me telling me HOW to do it, and the righteous cred is yours.

You sick fuck.



EDITED TO ADD SOMETHING ON-TOPIC: Yar, sparring injuries hurt on Zalanthas. Stain your clothing and such...

[Rhyden]

I dunno, I think sparring should be similar to two really buff dudes beating the holy mother fucking shit out of one another with huge dull bone weapons.

I could be wrong, but I think sparring weapons already are toned down a bit.

Sure, once in a while you'll see a half-giant or buff dwarf fighting that burly mul landing wound upon grevious, but it makes sense. I had a pretty buff warrior character recently who did -very little- damage in combat, but was still half successful. You think -elves- want sparring weapons to be toned down?