Armageddon Community should make a stronger effort to stop witch-hunting twinks.

[ibusoe]

When I first started playing Armageddon about five years ago, I engaged in my share of twinkish behavior.  I used to lure a scrab to chase me close to the gates of the city only to have the soldiers kill it for me.  I used to spam forage resources out of the wilderness and sell them until I had the best armor.  I used to spam-pickpocket people until I had looted the best items.

But after a couple of months, things changed.  I re-read the rules and realized that these sorts of behaviors were hardly original.  And in most cases they were either discouraged by the documentation or outright prohibited.  I began to focus more on building characters who were important by virtue of their involvement in plots or social connections, or else on characters who were artistically role-played etc.

In short, I grew up.

However, my problems were hardly over.  Every couple of months I find that there are not-so-subtle changes to the riding code, the barter code, etc. to counter the latest round of twinking.  And often times, these changes aren't made in response to actual twinking, they are made in response to suspected twinking, which may not actually be taking place.  Or the changes are implemented because a small group of players are complaining and the staff just wants to shut them up.

And of course these changes  don't succeed at preventing game abuse, so then the staff impose a more restrictive set of rules.

And of course the new rules don't stop game abuse, so some audits of player-behavior take place.

And of course these audits don't cure human behavior, so players will snitch on each other and accuse each other of twinking.

Where does all of this get us?  I feel like this sillyness originates because of three fallacies.

If players are twinking, you need to make the game mechanics more complicated to block this.
This is of course not true.  Twinks, by their very nature, are experimenting with various sets of rules as a form of entertainment.  If you make the rules more complicated, they will merely seek new loopholes.  You can't out-twink a twink.  Changing the rules as an enforcement mechanism only punishes the innocent.

If players are twinking, you need to punish them to get them to stop.
In my opinion negative reinforcement accomplishes little.  Twinks are twinking because they think it's fun.  They find experiments against the game code to be more engaging than social aspects of the game.  The actual way to block this is to engage them more effectively.  Punishing only alienates some of the more creative (but slightly immature) players.

If someone is more successful than me, they must be cheating.
I think a lot of players accuse each other of cheating because they are jealous.  Other are pushy.  



Why not become more tolerant of each other?  Why not set a better example than the next guy?  Why not take the moral high-road?  Why not engage people and make friends and encourage them to become stake-holders in the game's success?


edit: I also think that people over-estimate the damage that twinking causes.  In all my years, I've only twice seen people deliberately twinking in game -- one dude was spam casting spells.  Another dude was spam-using a skill to boost it.  How traumatized are we by this?

[Marauder Moe]

I'd write a much longer response, but Colbert is almost on.  So, in short...

I disagree.

Also, you sound bitter.

I suggest avoiding IRC or shoutcast or wherever it is that Arm people hang out these days.

(Maybe I'll write more later.)

[RogueGunslinger]

The only example I want to set, is that if you twink, I'm going to report you and try my best to ignore your existence in the game world.

[mansa]

I suggest avoiding IRC or shoutcast or wherever it is that Arm people hang out these days.

I second this.

People are bitches, and they will complain about anything.  Ignore them.

[Malken]

I'm a white hat twink. (like a white hat hacker).

Meaning, I'm a twink, but I don't PK, ever, so, I use my powers for personal use only.

So, it's okay, right?

Oh, "ethical twink", I like that term much better.

[brytta.leofa]

However, my problems were hardly over.  Every couple of months I find that there are not-so-subtle changes to the riding code, the barter code, etc. to counter the latest round of twinking.  And often times, these changes aren't made in response to actual twinking, they are made in response to suspected twinking, which may not actually be taking place.

Are changes made to prevent players from acting unrealistically?

Or are they done to make the gameworld a more rich, immersing, and, yes, "realistic" system?

[Rhyden]

I suggest avoiding IRC or shoutcast or wherever it is that Arm people hang out these days.

This will definitely increase your arming enjoyment.

I've also found that ignoring or avoiding some of the GDB will as well.

My suggestion: Try playing Arm for a week without looking once at the GDB. Without IRC, AIM, MSN, etc. See if it helps at all.

[jhunter]

I think some of the code changes to "enhance the environment/prevent twinking" have made the game mechanically less enjoyable to play. Things that once were not an OOC annoyance are now a coded annoyance and add nothing to the game except to prevent the few that would do so, from twinking out. Personally, I could give a fuck if someone else is twinking. What I do give a fuck about is enjoying the game and very -rarely- has someone else twinking out -directly- affected me negatively.
I'm perfectly willing to deal with a few twinks rather than have the game's code/mechanics be cumbersome, slow, and ultimately OOCly annoying to deal with.

So yes, in some ways I can see where you're coming from. At the same time, some of the other responses to your post do have merit as well.

[SMuz]

Yeah, I have a lot to say about it, but I'm lazy and can't seem to type too much that won't be misintepreted in some way.

The twink witch hunt is a little annoying. So often, there are things done that aren't twinkish at all, but nobody looks into why it's a little odd. I'd rather people handle overhunting and overmining IG. Grinding up combat stats, looking pretty, all that could be completely IC, for IC reasons that's part of a much more interesting personality. But when someone does it, too many players seem to insist that the staff handle it, instead of taking it as part of the world and hiring all the bored warriors IG to engage in some IC rivalry.

Personally, I don't engage in no twink hunt, because I think they're getting the bad side of it. Heh, people who reroll to get high stats often end up with worse, those who twink the combat code miss out on the best bits, and they'd tend to take longer to gather karma. Not to mention that the time spent sitting somewhere, grinding up a skill is time better spent enjoying the game. And the ones who actively twink to PK others often get killed early.

So, yeah, up to them. I sort of see it as the guy in poker who always bluffs and bids heavy amounts. Quite annoying and you'd have to avoid them. But eventually, I get the better hand and get so much satisfaction in revenge. It's really up to them to play it that way.

[Salt Merchant]

This has been going on for a long time. Many of the game's features have been changed in the name of preventing twinkery.  Or removed outright; does anyone still remember the days when skills levels and the who list were visible to players? Even just recently we lost the last remnants of "who c" in the name of consistency.

Overall, it must work, or at least not detract that much, since Arm is still running well. Unfortunately, I think there's been a bit of cost in flavor, but it's not my decision. My only decision is whether to play or not play. Since I'm here, it's clear which choice I've made up to now.

[mansa]

... Even just recently we lost the last remnants of "who c", presumably in order to... well, it's not clear exactly why....

Slight derail:
We made the decision we made because we feel it improves the game by leveling the playing-field for all clans and removing a very OOC-driven and OOC-driving feature from the game. - Xygax
Because it is an ooc construct.  Why should anyone automagickally know who in their clan is online at any given time, when they can just as easily take IC measures to find them? - Niamh
What we may consider are other IC alternatives to assist all  clans with communication. - Adhira

:::edit::: Oh, Salt Merchant.  You edited your post, making mine useless. 

[Yam]

[REDACTED]

I was drunk.

[Cutthroat]

However, my problems were hardly over.  Every couple of months I find that there are not-so-subtle changes to the riding code, the barter code, etc. to counter the latest round of twinking.  And often times, these changes aren't made in response to actual twinking, they are made in response to suspected twinking, which may not actually be taking place.

Are changes made to prevent players from acting unrealistically?

Or are they done to make the gameworld a more rich, immersing, and, yes, "realistic" system?

- Tweak to half-elf stats: Made half-elves more like half-elves, and possibly stopped a tiny number of players who ever thought of picking half-elf "just for the stats".
- The riding changes: Made ride affected by terrain, speed, number of rider's hands free, etc. Adds to the "immersion".
- The nighttime crime code changes: Allowed crime to thrive at night, like it probably should.
- Apartment key changes: Made apartments more secure like they probably should be, for those few who should be able to afford the luxuries of an apartment. Incidentally stopped key-collectors.

I'm sure there's others... anyway, the point is I would agree with brytta and think that you're probably thinking about this the wrong way. I can say that all of changes have made the game more rich/immersing/realistic, with some of these changes having the secondary effect of preventing unrealistic behavior. Is that really so bad?

[Lizzie]

Twinking can hurt plotlines and roleplay. It doesn't always, but it can. In fact, I'd say for every character I've played, I've been affected directly by at least one case of twinkery. I'm guessing a lot of people have too. For the merchant character who plays by the rules, roleplays their crafting sessions, attempts to create things in a believable time frame, there are a couple of merchant characters who spam-craft their way up and take over the market, thus making the "rule-abiding" player's character obsolete, from a code standpoint (though this character has probably had a lot more opportunity to earn respect and influence from others, often it doesn't make any damned bit of difference because Lord Faithful Noble Templar doesn't want an ally, he wants a master-crafted nose-clipper.)

For everyone who went by the rules and the spirit of the game, and had their character work hard, following the schedule, there are players who have brought their characters in to spam-spar with their OOC buddies, experiementing to min-max the shit out of the "skill timer" and intentionally allowing each other to beat each other to near-death just for the defense boost, even though it makes no IC sense for them to do it. And then, when they go and piss off Joe Noble, Joe Noble and his Byn Troupe can't do dick about it because they're too damned buff to kill, thanks to their twinkery.

For everyone who tries to play by the rules, and the spirit of the game with regards to commoners and their finances, there are people who will spend RL hours non-stop spam-mining or spam-this or spam-that with no regard to roleplay, before they ever interact with a single other PC. And then they'll buy their full set of solid steel chain-mail, and show up in public for the first time after only a couple of RL weeks, richer than PCs belonging to players who have been around for months.

It -does- affect the RP of everyone else, whether everyone else is aware of it or not. The code favors cheaters. That's just how code is. It favors whoever takes the time to figure it out and exploits it to their advantage. The problem isn't that people exploit it. The problem is that some people will exploit it without any regard to the enjoyment of anyone else. There are ways to give yourself a little OOC, coded "Hey look at that!" boost, without it undermining the IC attempts of everyone else who wants to play fair, or at least who doesn't want to use those exploits to gain advantage over everyone else.

[Agent_137]

lol, blastchat.

[Marauder Moe]

Ah yes, that's the word I was looking for.

Anyway, looking at the poll, the crowd has spoken I think.

[Comrade Canadia]

Armag is designed for twinking.

As a caveat, I don't feel I twink, and in fact most of my characters tend to be codedly on the weak side compared to other characters with similar playtimes. I suffer from powergamer's guilt, and just can't spam code endlessly. This also means I'm not playing the game according to how it is designed.

Let's look at the skill system to start off:

1. Every character starts weak as a kitten.

2. Skills must be practiced repeatedly in order for them to go up. Powergaming code exists in order to stop people from overdoing the same skill in a short period... but any good twink knows how to work around this and still increase skills rapidly.

3. Code is law. Every staff post I've read, and arbitration I've heard of in situations where the code has interfered in game world continuity has had the staff side with the code.

So let's say that I want to play an older man in his mid-40s who's been in some sort of mundane combat role all of his life. This is a pretty generic character concept, and in order to play it, I'd have to spend the first several days of playtime sparring obsessively instead of doing something fun like roleplaying. Why? Because it makes -no sense- for a 40 year old character who's been fighting his entire life to get his ass kicked by a 16 year old with eight days played.

See, armag's roots are hack & slash, and no matter how much roleplaying we layer on top of it, there's still that H&S core. The game has the mentality of any computer roleplaying game. Characters start weak, kill monsters, gather treasure, and become strong. The game world is predicated on this, and though we MANY roles which don't use coded stuff at all (usually the most entertaining roles in my experience), that code is still there. I can think of countless examples of nobles getting disciplined for using all these shiny coded abilities in ways which don't jive with the game world because they get bored or whatever.

I don't like twinks because they ruin my immersion, but we have to recognize where they're coming from in the first place and address those issues, rather than reactively punishing twinks when they commit their crimes against roleplay.

[brytta.leofa]

So let's say that I want to play an older man in his mid-40s who's been in some sort of mundane combat role all of his life. This is a pretty generic character concept, and in order to play it, I'd have to spend the first several days of playtime sparring obsessively instead of doing something fun like roleplaying. Why? Because it makes -no sense- for a 40 year old character who's been fighting his entire life to get his ass kicked by a 16 year old with eight days played.

I don't disagree with everything you're saying, but I would put this one differently:

Armageddon does not allow you to app an older man in his mid-40s who's been in some sort of mundane combat role all of his life.  Even special apps for that sort of role, from what I think what I've read on the GDB, would generally be denied.  Mundane characters have to gain power and skill organically.  (So do 'gickers and such, for that matter, but they're on a different stratum.)

If you're sparring obsessively, you're trying to play a different game than the one the staff have decided on.

[spawnloser]

Actually, you CAN play someone that starts as a 40 year old that has been working in combat his whole life... s/he just never learned anything from it until now.

[Eloran]

Actually, you CAN play someone that starts as a 40 year old that has been working in combat his whole life... s/he just never learned anything from it until now.

An entire life of ignorance? He musta had some really shitty teachers.

Lastly, love the title. Cumminity is a stage name in AstroGlide Grls Pt. 8.

[number13]

Actually, you CAN play someone that starts as a 40 year old that has been working in combat his whole life... s/he just never learned anything from it until now.

You could make him an old hand at combat, who suffered an crippling injury or simply retired from active training and got horribly out of shape/practice. Maybe he's always been really lazy or just not very good, until whatever event that caused the character's promotion from vNPC to PC spurred him to aspire towards being better.

[Malken]

Armag is designed for twinking.

Actually, I think that Armageddon is designed for people with lots of free time.

On another RPI mud that I play, it doesn't matter if you can play 24 hours a day or just an hour, if you craft that silk dress, you're not going to be able to craft anything else that is slightly valuable for another set amount of hours, depending on your skills and such.

After playing this game for many years, it's like I'm the alcoholic and I'm constantly invited to an open bar party. Each day I have to struggle to not fall back into bad twinking habits, because it's all there for me to do so, because the only thing that keeps me from spamcrafting or killing twenty verrin hawks in a row is -me-.

We don't have timers and such, so all we have to control ourselves is our willpower, and, well, some people are better than others at such. I guess that's why we have karma, as well. The staff probably allows a certain amount of 'twinkery', controlled-twinkery, perhaps, otherwise, I wouldn't have all that karma I have so far.

Or maybe, as well, like I said in a previous post, it's what you do in the end with your twinking.

[mansa]

Armageddon does not allow you to app an older man in his mid-40s who's been in some sort of mundane combat role all of his life.  Even special apps for that sort of role, from what I think what I've read on the GDB, would generally be denied.  Mundane characters have to gain power and skill organically.  (So do 'gickers and such, for that matter, but they're on a different stratum.)

I've read the opposite, in that Special Apps that request a boost to mundane skills will more likely be approved than special apps that request spells and outrageousness.

I wouldn't say, "does not allow", but I would say that it requires a special application.

[Malken]

Actually, you CAN play someone that starts as a 40 year old that has been working in combat his whole life... s/he just never learned anything from it until now.

You could make him an old hand at combat, who suffered an crippling injury or simply retired from active training and got horribly out of shape/practice. Maybe he's always been really lazy or just not very good, until whatever event that caused the character's promotion from vNPC to PC spurred him to aspire towards being better.

It would be nice if karma also gave you extra addons to your 0 karma classes.

Like, at 3 karma, you could pick from a sub-category of Warrior - Veteran Warrior - Heavy Infantry Warrior - Cavalry Warrior, etc.. Each with slight bonuses.

[Zoltan]

It would be nice if karma also gave you extra addons to your 0 karma classes.

Like, at 3 karma, you could pick from a sub-category of Warrior - Veteran Warrior - Heavy Infantry Warrior - Cavalry Warrior, etc.. Each with slight bonuses.

Bleh, no way. Keep that kind of thing in the realm of special apps. Automating skill bumps at chargen just seems... wrong to me.