Who C Alternatives.

[jalden]

It's a big game world and the contact ability greatly increases gameplay by letting us find friends to rp with.  We have the ability for OOC reasons but have explained it IC.  Now the issue is finding friends to rp with without spending a lot of time trying to contact people who are offline.  Gimfs suggestions are good. Consolidating Taverns, consistent time/places to meet up with other players would both be really good ways of helping the problem.  These are probably better ways to increase contact with each other than making more OOC code changes.

As far as "code fixes" they probably fall in three categories:

1.Make it easier to contact friends (bonus for clannies-- or maybe the ability to psionically couple)
2.Know when friends are around. Could sense people you've mutually befriended, or list friends in “Who C”
3.Make it easier to meet new friends. Designated and obvious time/places to meet people and increasing the players per area.  

What are easy IC ways of accomplishing these things with minimal draw backs?  I think there are IC solutions so we shouldn't need to resort to something OOC like “Who C”.  This is the best game out there for finding people to do serious rp with, but there is always room for improvement.

[mansa]

I don't hate your idea, mansa, but to me the idea that there's a bonus to contact within a clan just doesn't work. What is the IC reason there is a bonus? With gypsies, other tribals, GMH family members, some bards, desert elves, and other groups that are actually related by blood, I could buy it. But why would a templar and her minions have any extra sensitivity to one another?

Unless all the soldiers in the 'Nakki militia are actually part of a convoluted system of bastard children of bastard children of bastard children of templars. Hmm...then again, they do let half-giants in.

I don't think you need to justify it.  Clans get bonuses to contacting members within coded clans.
It's all in-game, so that's all you need to care about it.  That's the reason why 'Who C' was removed - because it was an OOC tool.

[Gimfalisette]

Few more suggestions for increasing interaction:

-- Use the front page of the website (not the GDB only) to actively promote RPTs being run by players and staff.
-- Use the front page of the website to actively promote the investigation of and involvement in plots. Example post: "An odd little rumor has emerged from the 'rinth regarding a larger-than-usual clash of gangs early in the month of Descending Sun," then append the RL date to it. Keep this fresh and totally updated so that there is always something new to entice players (new and old) into the game for investigation.
-- Create non-noble, non-templar, non-GMH, unclanned character positions that players can apply for, which are specifically designed to create interaction or short-term plot. Such as tavern server, wheat farmer, market hawker, whore, criminal on the lam, etc.

[FantasyWriter]

I don't hate your idea, mansa, but to me the idea that there's a bonus to contact within a clan just doesn't work. What is the IC reason there is a bonus? With gypsies, other tribals, GMH family members, some bards, desert elves, and other groups that are actually related by blood, I could buy it. But why would a templar and her minions have any extra sensitivity to one another?

Unless all the soldiers in the 'Nakki militia are actually part of a convoluted system of bastard children of bastard children of bastard children of templars. Hmm...then again, they do let half-giants in.

I agree, it just doesn't make IC sence for a new recruit to be any closer to High Templar Itchybutt than your average Joe commoner.

[brytta.leofa]

What is the IC reason there is a bonus? With gypsies, other tribals, GMH family members, some bards, desert elves, and other groups that are actually related by blood, I could buy it. But why would a templar and her minions have any extra sensitivity to one another?

Because, ICly, they should see each other every day, even if the PCs have only met once or twice.

Unless all the soldiers in the 'Nakki militia are actually part of a convoluted system of bastard children of bastard children of bastard children of templars.

Hrrrm.

[valeria]

I don't see how allowing characters to know if other people are around in low-population clans is going to reduce the population in those clans.  I'd think if anything, it would increase it, since people would be more likely to take a risk and be in it, when they know they have a way to contact people, instead of sitting around bored all the time, waiting for clan members to show up, knocking their stun down and waiting for it to recharge.  Especially if it's a newer character, and their contact just sucks.

I would be more likely to take a risk on a low population clan, again, even though I spent a lot of time extensively bored in my last one, if I knew there were ways of telling the other people were around.  I really don't see a non specific who system leading to abuse, in this regard.  If anything, I think it might help the situation.  Besides, I can tell just from playing a month what clans are high population, and what clans are low population.  I really doubt adding numbers to my suspicions, when I was already in the clan, and am likely in it for in character reasons, would make me do anything different with my character.  But that's just me.

Finally, leaving me with a false 'hope' that I'm just missing people, while I'm sitting around for three hours a day bored, is not going to mentally or emotionally incapacitate me any more than sitting around for three hours knowing no one is on, bored.  At least the second way, I can devote less time to trying to find people, and more time to solo RP.

I really love this game so far, but the inability to find people easily- and having this limited apparently based on a (likely untrue) construct that I as a player am going to abuse out of character knowledge to find in character interaction- is easily one of the most frustrating things to me.  This is a roleplaying game.  A lot of people come here to find interaction.  Why make that harder than it really needs to be?

[a strange shadow]

This is a roleplaying game.  A lot of people come here to find interaction.  Why make that harder than it really needs to be?

Can't be repeated enough. I'll stick to just once, though.

I'm for the non-specific 'who c' that shows how many are logged in, but not names or sdescs.

[valeria]

And lastly, why does it have to be an OOC construct, for people that are mildly psychic to know that people that they spend a lot of time with, and have an intimate knowledge of, are around, awake, and looking for interaction?  A lot of what I've seen is 'the skill doesn't work that way' and 'that's not how it works'.  Why not make that part of how it works?  Have it be a psychic ability that reduces some stun or something.  It's really a very small leap, from people that can reach out and talk to other minds at great distances, to people that can vaguely try to count specific minds around that they know.  

Not in a specific person sense, like seeing names or sdescs, but in the 'There are 3 people from (group) around,' sense.

[flurry]

On another (non-RPI, alas) game that I used to play, I played in a clan where an NPC would tell you who had been by, if you asked. Basically, it was a guard at a gate, who would respond by giving a list of sdescs (if I remember correctly) of anyone who had been in that coded room, over some extended period of time. You could even ask him for more detail, and he'd say how recently among other things. It was neat.

I doubt that's something that would make sense for every character in every clan, though.

[Zoan]

Unless all the soldiers in the 'Nakki militia are actually part of a convoluted system of bastard children of bastard children of bastard children of templars.

Lord Templar Makarim.

[brytta.leofa]

Personally, the only solutions I've liked so far is giving a bump to contact for 'familiar' people, i.e. the people in your clan, or having a rumormonger NPC for people to check in with or report to.  All of the other proposed options feed you OOC information which I am against 100%.

I'm flying a bit blind here, as I don't quite grok where you're coming from, but I think this might help: 
To make things fair, contact should have a small random chance of succeeding even when the PC is logged off.

[Nyr]

Moderated some posts.  I understand that this issue brings up strong emotions, but please act like adults (and stay on topic).

[spawnloser]

Personally, the only solutions I've liked so far is giving a bump to contact for 'familiar' people, i.e. the people in your clan, or having a rumormonger NPC for people to check in with or report to.  All of the other proposed options feed you OOC information which I am against 100%.

I'm flying a bit blind here, as I don't quite grok where you're coming from, but I think this might help: 
To make things fair, contact should have a small random chance of succeeding even when the PC is logged off.

I have no idea why you think that might help.  Please explain.

(And note, I was on topic in my last post Nyr, as seen in what b.l quoted.  That couldn't have been left, at least?)

[Cutthroat]

Personally, the only solutions I've liked so far is giving a bump to contact for 'familiar' people, i.e. the people in your clan, or having a rumormonger NPC for people to check in with or report to.  All of the other proposed options feed you OOC information which I am against 100%.

I'm flying a bit blind here, as I don't quite grok where you're coming from, but I think this might help:  
To make things fair, contact should have a small random chance of succeeding even when the PC is logged off.

I think this would actually hurt... a lot. Or be extremely difficult to work in. See 'help magick components'. Could you explain more, though?

[brytta.leofa]

To make things fair, contact should have a small random chance of succeeding even when the PC is logged off.

I have no idea why you think that might help.  Please explain.

I think it would help your complaints, not mine. Right now, contact itself gives you a piece of (filtered) OOC information.

Suppose that, when Amos is logged on, you can usually contact him within 1-3 tries.  But now "contact Amos" fails ten times in a row.  You now know that Amos is either dead, knocked out cold, got his brain stuck in a psionic bear trap, or logged out.

If you want to really sanitize the OOC information you're getting, making contact apparently succeed (obviously no one would respond) at a certain rate when a person is logged out without barrier up would help.  It'd also--the one consolation, to me--alleviate the problem of not being able to tell between Logged Out All Week and Gone Missing Dead.

It's far more viable than the other, slightly more perfect, approach wherein contact would have a random chance of failing for hours or days at a time, even when the target's logged in.  Psionic storms indeed.

Mind you, I'm still in the "give everybody Who C" camp, so this is all for the sake of argument.

[spawnloser]

I disagree with your claim that contact gives you filtered OOC information.

I am currently playing a character that is quite good at the way.  My character still failed the other day, ten times in a row, to contact someone that had already contacted my character.  Random chance is a bitch.  Certainty is not and that's what all of the other solutions give to you.  With the bonus to contact, there's still a chance of failing, even ten times in a row.  With the rumormonger, the person could just fail to report so people could assume the person was gone... but the person may not be.  See, there is UNcertainty.  All other solutions presented give certainty.  You would KNOW how many people from your clan(s) were logged in or the like.

Try again.

[LoD]

Here are some additional thoughts on the subject of increasing interaction:

I want to be able to see how many clan members are currently logged in.

I'm not sure this functionality is really necessary.  I know that when I am part of a clan, I have a pretty good idea of both the number and identify of the players whom generally share my play times.  This gives me a fairly concise list to check when I'm contacting these people to try and arrange a meeting or seek interaction.  The advantage 'who c' provided was in facilitating the ease of contact by narrowing down the list of possibilities -- and so I feel that the focus should really remain on facilitating contact, not primarily in providing information.

With regards to the number of people in a given region or zone, unless specific design choices are made to decrease player dilution and increase interaction (i.e. lower number of social gathering locations, more travel choke points, overlapped/public areas with multiple uses), having these numbers still doesn't really help you find people.  They could all be squatting in their apartments, casting in temples, or crawling through sewers for all the good it would do your tavern-sitting merchant.

It might also potentially hurt from the viewpoint of immersion.  What if you saw "There are currently 0 players in your region.", when suddenly one of the characters in your area began speaking with you.  It would seem fairly obvious that an Immortal was now interacting with you, which is sometimes obvious, but sometimes not obvious -- and I think that I'd prefer to keep the shroud of mystery draped about that particular shoulder as much as possible.

Let's implement a psionic "ping" or "sense" that allows you to ICly seek clan minds.

I'd be nervous expanding on the current psionic abilities too much, as well as adding something that doesn't entirely make sense for every clan out there.  It makes sense for an extremely tightly-woven tribe or family that is intimately familiar with one another, but it makes much less sense for sprawling GMH, T'zai-Byn, or similar size organizations.  I would rather see changes made to the current psionic abilities to make finding people easier.

Suggestion

It seems that the act of contacting one (confirming they are around) is one of the major challenges or barriers to establishing interaction.  What if psionics were altered slightly to make it much easier to consistently make contact, and shift the difficulty toward the cost and ease of either maintaining contact, message-passing, or both?  Perhaps even introduce another command that simply causes your mental image to waver in their thoughts -- in case you are bad at the Way, but want to convey you are available.

This would shift the psionic learning curve away from actually being able to make contact with someone and more toward successfully maintaining contact and successfully passing messages before they pass out or break contact.  You could keep the cost of the contact skill high if the success rate jumped dramatically.  It would be nearly a guaranteed hit (if the target was not employing barrier) to simply make contact, and then more difficult to maintain contact and communicate.

Increase the success of tools for people to locate sources of interaction without trivializing the contact/psi relationship or making it too easy to communicate over the Way for novices.  This would probably go a long way toward allowing not only clan members from finding other clan members, but for new players to locate Byn sergeants, employers they read about on boards, templars from whom they need a gem/license, etc...

-LoD

[Qzzrbl]

Who C is the reason so many people bitch about wanting the Contact skill to be upped at character creation.

Trying to find clannies over the Way is one of the best methods of getting your contact skill up without the grind.

[brytta.leofa]

Who C is the reason so many people bitch about wanting the Contact skill to be upped at character creation.

Eh, I doubt that.  Most clans weren't getting Who C anyway before the Dread Removal.

[Gimfalisette]

Who C is the reason so many people bitch about wanting the Contact skill to be upped at character creation.

Eh, I doubt that.  Most clans weren't getting Who C anyway before the Dread Removal.

Agreed. Also, for some clans that did have it such as the militia, recruits (i.e. newbie PCs) did not have access to the portion of the clan with who c. Who c was only available once the PC had become a full soldier, which generally takes an RL month or more.

[Agent_137]

lol ooc information. the best is when your contact target has the same name as an NPC. then it's REALLY easy to know if they are online or not.