Something else to do with Karma.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

This is just FYI: A 1 hour warrior is going to destroy a 1 hour any-magicker-class in a boxing match.

My point exactly. I realize I'm really bad at making points (my mind wanders), but what I was getting at is that if you think you're background as a Bynner means shit, then my krathi was a bynner for TWICE as long, and he's gonna beat you silly, and then barbaque your corpse too!

As it stands, that ain't gonna happen, because your fighter was in the Byn for 5 years, and my guy wasn't. Hence he can knock me on my ass and stomp my grill in while I'm in the middle of casting 'mon un halaster die mofo', and there ain't a THING I can do about it.

IDK. Very simply, I do not support this idea. Your background is more the experience your character has had. Your class is what he's learned through-out the process (and what he is STILL learning.) If your guy was in the Byn, show it in your RP.. You could be in the Army and still get beat up by a high-school bully. Keep going to drills and you'll get better.

[Jenred]

I do not support this idea for the mere fact that the minute someone has karma (and this idea is in place) they will generally stop playing "from scratch" characters in lieu of one of these karma-privileged experiences. The average person, acknowledging the "grind" inherent with the game would almost assuredly opt out of "a from scratch warrior" or a "semi-veteran warrior" that is what the from scratch one WOULD be, only sooner.

Suddenly the gap between newer players and experienced ones becomes bigger. People will begin to get bored of the pre-fab characters, and the same conundrum will repeat itself.

This is also disregarding the arguments that other players have brought up - the general imbalance/unfairness of the karma system, off-peak players not getting staff-scrutiny, etc, etc.



I think a better solution would be for players to pick more reasonable backgrounds and instead of having every character have a huge breadth of experience in their given field in their history, make more open-ended backgrounds and actually acquire that experience themselves. Instead of "was a Byn Sergeant" have "aspires to be a Byn Sergeant" and go out and do that in game.

Pre-fab concepts tend to die out pretty quickly because the fun of creating/developing them is gone.


Another alternate solution would just be more staff sponsored non-essential roles. This way you get the application process which levels the playing field, and a smaller, more controlled base of roles. But then again I could argue this point with my same argument above - instead of sponsoring these roles, build them in game through PC leaders.

So eitherway I cut it, even when I present solutions, I still can't really stick to them. I just generally don't think this is a good idea for the game as it stands now. If certain elements were different - skill growth, etc, then maybe it would work.


But I do agree with trying to break the grind, and think its a topic worth talking about.
I wouldn't mind seeing MORE classes, hybrid classes, or unique creation options available through karma... instead of just basically magicker skills, having more diverse crafting/fighting/sneaking skillsets... like instead of just "merchant" maybe a high karma guild that has something like cavilish-literacy, or a different variety of crafts at start, more money.
Or a specialized fighter guild. Something, I don't know.

[SMuz]

No, I don't go with this. It's nice to know that your Sergeant once went through the same shit-cleaning as you are doing as a Runner. It's nice to know that these 2 karma players are doing the same grinding. The grind in Arm is good, it's not even very steep. It's fun. The difficulty at the start forces you to be creative and go through some interesting experiences. And it's much, much satisfying knowing that you survived those early days.

If you don't think that experienced players should suffer the grind, then why should new players suffer it? It's bad enough that new players are only stuck with grunts, now they're effectively lower level grunts who can't hunt a jozhal without a senior's help. Should a 8-karma player suddenly have a character with the power of a 20-day warrior just because he qualifies for it and can build 20 days of background for his character?

You could still spec app an experienced warrior and are more likely to get it because of high karma. And I'd prefer it stays spec app only, because it keeps experienced characters rare.

[My 2 sids]

I <3 this idea!!  It's brilliant and we should do it!!!

It would add so much depth to clans if instead of one leadership PC and a bunch of new recruits we had Officers, recruits, and instant regulars/ Privates (heck, even sergeants and save promotions/ leadership for higher ranking officers)!

[SMuz]

Oh, and going with My 2 sids' highly sarcastic reply (), it also means that recruits (new players) will have a lot of trouble climbing up the ladder because there's always a new high karma player apping into a position higher than them. Which is so not cool. The noob character works his ass off to reach Trooper status, sucks up to the PCs and NPCs and the next day, some senior player pops into Trooper.

To quote someone from a PM, they'll feel like they haven't accomplished anything when some new player pops in with a higher rank than them. It happens already, with inactive characters becoming active again. But when someone gets an instant promotion because it's part of the code, it's not about balance, it's not about background, it's the fact that newer players won't get that feeling of accomplishment.

[My 2 sids]

I wasn't being sarcastic.

Look, I think a lot of newbies would benefit if they had someone to look up to ICly.  Esp. in non-combat roles where one may get frustrated trying to figure out the crafting code or how to be an aide/ merchant/ etc.

[lingering]

I wasn't being sarcastic.

Look, I think a lot of newbies would benefit if they had someone to look up to ICly.  Esp. in non-combat roles where one may get frustrated trying to figure out the crafting code or how to be an aide/ merchant/ etc.

That's what helpers are for.

To be able to get higher skilled characters through karma is a bad idea.  That will lead to further calls of favoritism and cause endless headaches for the staff. 

If you want a character to start out as a Byn Sergeant or a House Officer then app it directly with the clan immortals involved.  If you want extra skills then put in the special app.  Chances are if the concept makes sense and doesn't go overboard then you will get it but there will be a long delay since special apps tend to get a lower priority.

To make this process automatic is just calling for grief. 

[X-D]

I agree with the OP.

Though I think it should be karma AND years played.

Fact is, after a while the grind is NOT fun, far from it, it begins to push many older players away. We know exactly how to grind a PC up to what we consider starting level for said PC, we have done it many times, in some cases hundreds of times. It becomes boring and more then a little annoying. Balance, Give me a break. I've watched many PCs skill up at rates many times that of any newb anyway so there is no balance and should not be.

Some people have said that when they start a new PC they spend the first few hours getting outfitted as they think the PC with backround and personality should be, and in this time they don't RP and in fact avoid interaction.  Others, in most cases from what I can see do the same thing but take it farther, I admit I am one of them. I will avoid/ignore other PCs during the outfitting stage and then I will keep my PC VERY low key from the PC game world until I have the skills to the point they should already be in the PCs life.

Sure, there was a time when I had fun bringing a PC up from nothing, that is no longer the case, hell, I make rather old PCs now just so they can have some world knowledge because it has become pretty much impossible for me to fake not knowing most of what I consider basic IC knowledge. I've played long enough that I can and sometimes do, blind walk anywhere in the game I want. Bleh.

Again, all for ideas like the OPs.

[Krath]

I agree with the OP.

Though I think it should be karma AND years played.

Fact is, after a while the grind is NOT fun, far from it, it begins to push many older players away. We know exactly how to grind a PC up to what we consider starting level for said PC, we have done it many times, in some cases hundreds of times. It becomes boring and more then a little annoying. Balance, Give me a break. I've watched many PCs skill up at rates many times that of any newb anyway so there is no balance and should not be.

Some people have said that when they start a new PC they spend the first few hours getting outfitted as they think the PC with backround and personality should be, and in this time they don't RP and in fact avoid interaction.  Others, in most cases from what I can see do the same thing but take it farther, I admit I am one of them. I will avoid/ignore other PCs during the outfitting stage and then I will keep my PC VERY low key from the PC game world until I have the skills to the point they should already be in the PCs life.

Sure, there was a time when I had fun bringing a PC up from nothing, that is no longer the case, hell, I make rather old PCs now just so they can have some world knowledge because it has become pretty much impossible for me to fake not knowing most of what I consider basic IC knowledge. I've played long enough that I can and sometimes do, blind walk anywhere in the game I want. Bleh.

Again, all for ideas like the OPs.

What he said.

[RogueGunslinger]

Yeah. I'm like that only I've never gotten past the grind...

Edit: God I suck at this game.

[flurry]

I don't like the original suggestion, for a few reasons. For one thing, people would place less value on higher skilled characters. As it is now, a PC with a certain level of skills either worked to get there, or perhaps was a special application. Either way, the player has a good reason to hold onto that character, and others have a good reason to value that skilled character.

If entering the game with more developed skills were an option at one or two karma, then so many people would have that option that I'd guess that it would almost divide the game into haves and have-nots.

I also think working your way up is better for character development, more often than not.

[SMuz]

I'm all against this idea. It seems like everyone who supports it has been playing for a while. I'd like to see a newer player agree with this.

The reason I got hooked onto Armageddon and recommend it to all my friends is because a starting player character will be as good as an experienced player's character with enough survival skill and luck.  Once you get rid of that, I will honestly consider finding another MUD, because I would have to suffer the grind as a newbie, while all the pros skip through it. And I will certainly see no reason to recommend a MUD which openly disadvantages new players.

I think a better idea would be to fix the grind. Because even if you're a Trooper or Private with 0-day skills, you'd still have to grind your skills to the appropriate level. Grinding is an obsolete game mechanic anyway, designed to give the player a sense of satisfaction, especially in multiplayer. But so far, there's never been a better solution to it.

[Synthesis]

I like the grind.

I also like the OP's idea.

*shrug*

[X-D]

I'm gonna have to sorta target you here Smuz.

I don't think anybody including the OP is suggesting that anybody be able to start a PC with skill levels average to say a 50 day PC but instead closer to the average for a 10 day PC or even slightly lower.

Also, for myself I would not allow even the the OPs ideas for any karma class and only 1 karma race.

As it sits, because of the many secrets of the game and more, New players are already at an extreme disadvantage. The only thing that stops just about any of them from having to app a new PC every rl day for the next 6 months is the fact that most of the veteran players give new players TONS of leeway. This is not something I think would change for the worse if such a system was put in place. In fact, I'd be willing to bet since the vets would have to focus less on skills early on, they would have even more time to mentor new players.

[brytta.leofa]

I'd like to see things set up so that we generally have more Byn Troopers than Byn Runners.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'd like to see things set up so that we generally have more Byn Troopers than Byn Runners.

And privates to recruits. But this will never happen with the current system.

[Jingo]

I just want to point out that playing a social character is a good way to get away from the grind.

Try it. You'll be pleasantly suprised.

[Jenred]

Unfortunately, people seem to be taking the skill-side of this argument, something like: "I like this idea because I don't have to grind skills anymore". Thats the wrong way to view the discussion, and the game I think.

Just because people support the idea because they are "tired of having to skill-up characters" doesn't mean its a good, valid, or relevant idea to add into the game. The game has never been about convenient coded development, or coded aspects in general. The game has been about creating meaningful characters that have skills as a SECONDARY feature to supplement their concept.

Characters live too long as it is, we shouldn't make it easier by removing the weaker phase of their life. Otherwise they lose appreciation for where they came from and grow accustomed to being "decently strong/skilled" from the onset.


The idea will also cause characters to get bored. Because now they don't have to grind, and will do alot more spam-hunting or tavern-sitting or furthering the limits of what they have explored.

[Maso]

I haven't had any input on this thread yet.

No. For all the aforementioned reasons for being against it. I am against it. I hate the grind, but I don't want to not grind while other people have to.

[RogueGunslinger]

Characters live too long as it is,

Was totally with you until you got here.

Are we playing the same game?

[Jenred]

Characters live too long as it is,

Was totally with you until you got here.

Are we playing the same game?

Then disregard that portion I guess. Its an observation that I believe is generally true. Used to be there would be an HRPT every so often to level out the characters, now some actually die of old-age. Eitherway, its a moot point in relation to the rest of my argument I think, and more of just a personally believed side-opinion.

[RogueGunslinger]

Then I agree with your sentiments.

[Synthesis]

Unfortunately, people seem to be taking the skill-side of this argument, something like: "I like this idea because I don't have to grind skills anymore". Thats the wrong way to view the discussion, and the game I think.

Just because people support the idea because they are "tired of having to skill-up characters" doesn't mean its a good, valid, or relevant idea to add into the game. The game has never been about convenient coded development, or coded aspects in general. The game has been about creating meaningful characters that have skills as a SECONDARY feature to supplement their concept.

Characters live too long as it is, we shouldn't make it easier by removing the weaker phase of their life. Otherwise they lose appreciation for where they came from and grow accustomed to being "decently strong/skilled" from the onset.


The idea will also cause characters to get bored. Because now they don't have to grind, and will do alot more spam-hunting or tavern-sitting or furthering the limits of what they have explored.

All the spam-hunting I've ever done was while grinding...not afterward.

[FantasyWriter]

My two cents:

A year ago, I would have loved the idea: to have the option to start a combat based PC with slightly buffed skills.
I had the opportunity to play a spec app PC that could have killed nearly any readily seen NPC from start.

Even though I had a great background story and ideas for the future to work with, it took a lot of the enjoyment I get from "learning" how to kill certain NPCs (aka leveling up).  I think getting better at coded skill through long term RP and practice is one of the best parts of the game.

[UnderSeven]

The thing about the grind is, just raising the lower cap doesn't make the grind go away.  Quite the contrary it only means that people will grind to get higher. 

Lets take a quick look at the point behind the grind: 

1) Get on par with other pcs.  However if they started at X level than you still need to grind as much as you did before to get on par with them.  Letting you start at higher skill levels does nothing for this.

2) Get on par with npcs.  Well the npcs are there to enforce a harsh world, if everyone starts easily and quickly getting to a point that the world is no longer harsh the npcs will just get buffed and thus the grind remains unchanged.

My point is ultimately this: If you are making a fuss and effort at grinding then there maybe some of the point being missed.  Roleplay is the ultimately point I think to this game and therefore grinding for skill, yes it's unfun, but also not the point of the game. 

I think as far as this thread goes that we shouldn't give more to do with karma, infact I'd like to see less.  On another game where their version of karma rules, without special apps like we have here, or the ability to apply for special roles, nobles, merchants ect.  The only thing you can do is try to get their karma through hoping staff will notice you, but if you look at their statistics, most players don't have very much of it. The problem is if we have just 30 players and maybe ten staff, that's three players per staff to watch every second and more likely than not the staff have more to do than watch people every second.  They have email to answer, stuff to do in the game, coding. god only knows what else.  In other words they don't have the time to make Karma into an important system of measure.  Therefore I think more benefits to karma should be avoided because it is a very broken system in that regard.

Anyway there is my two cents.  Sometimes vet players move on and sometimes it is just their time to do it.