Something else to do with Karma.

[My 2 sids]

My two cents:

A year ago, I would have loved the idea: to have the option to start a combat based PC with slightly buffed skills.
I had the opportunity to play a spec app PC that could have killed nearly any readily seen NPC from start.

It's not about skills. Heck, there are times a recruit PC can physically do better than an officer PC and no one really cares.

  I'm just saying that if the _player_ has a good understanding than let them start in a higher rank.  As a newbie I always appreciated having regulars/ lifers/ privates/ whatever  who were not commanding officers but higher ranking PCs.

For me, the current set up is like a high school where everyone starts off as freshmen with a very few special-apped teachers.  Where are the upper class men?  Where are the sophomores?   

It would add another layer to a PC society which is supposed to be very hierarchical anyways. 

[FantasyWriter]

The thing about the grind is, just raising the lower cap doesn't make the grind go away.  Quite the contrary it only means that people will grind to get higher. 

And the logic shall set us free.

[UnderSeven]

My two cents:

A year ago, I would have loved the idea: to have the option to start a combat based PC with slightly buffed skills.
I had the opportunity to play a spec app PC that could have killed nearly any readily seen NPC from start.

It's not about skills. Heck, there are times a recruit PC can physically do better than an officer PC and no one really cares.

  I'm just saying that if the _player_ has a good understanding than let them start in a higher rank.  As a newbie I always appreciated having regulars/ lifers/ privates/ whatever  who were not commanding officers but higher ranking PCs.

For me, the current set up is like a high school where everyone starts off as freshmen with a very few special-apped teachers.  Where are the upper class men?  Where are the sophomores?   

It would add another layer to a PC society which is supposed to be very hierarchical anyways. 

Icly yes, there is a hierarchy, oocly not so much.  Besides which it is possible to start with higher skills, via special application.  But for reasons mentioned in my other post it is for good reason, kept rare.

[FantasyWriter]

My two cents:

A year ago, I would have loved the idea: to have the option to start a combat based PC with slightly buffed skills.
I had the opportunity to play a spec app PC that could have killed nearly any readily seen NPC from start.

It's not about skills. Heck, there are times a recruit PC can physically do better than an officer PC and no one really cares.

  I'm just saying that if the _player_ has a good understanding than let them start in a higher rank.  As a newbie I always appreciated having regulars/ lifers/ privates/ whatever  who were not commanding officers but higher ranking PCs.

For me, the current set up is like a high school where everyone starts off as freshmen with a very few special-apped teachers.  Where are the upper class men?  Where are the sophomores?   

It would add another layer to a PC society which is supposed to be very hierarchical anyways. 

I apologize for the misunderstanding.
Since I understand now, here are my third and fourth cents:

If you see a need in a clan for an upper classman, write the staff for that clan with your concept and why you think your concept would benefit the game world.

If there's NOT a need, then it is unfair to the the people in the clan who are working to obtain the position IC for another player to have it given to them for spending ten minutes in chargen writing the PC up just because they happen to have a couple notches of karma on their belt.

[Ampere]

My two cents:

A year ago, I would have loved the idea: to have the option to start a combat based PC with slightly buffed skills.
I had the opportunity to play a spec app PC that could have killed nearly any readily seen NPC from start.

It's not about skills. Heck, there are times a recruit PC can physically do better than an officer PC and no one really cares.

  I'm just saying that if the _player_ has a good understanding than let them start in a higher rank.  As a newbie I always appreciated having regulars/ lifers/ privates/ whatever  who were not commanding officers but higher ranking PCs.

For me, the current set up is like a high school where everyone starts off as freshmen with a very few special-apped teachers.  Where are the upper class men?  Where are the sophomores?   

It would add another layer to a PC society which is supposed to be very hierarchical anyways. 

Icly yes, there is a hierarchy, oocly not so much.  Besides which it is possible to start with higher skills, via special application.  But for reasons mentioned in my other post it is for good reason, kept rare.

This isn't about hierarchy. Karma, in theory, is a reflection of a player's respect for the game. Respect shown through dedication to the realism of their character and the surrounding game world.  This respect is rewarded with trust, in the form of karma --- which unlocks cool races/classes --- I personally don't see the problem with this trust leapfrogging the early grind as well.  The argument that higher skills are already available via special app further validates the position that karma based boosting would do little to disrupt to current system...in fact it could help with retention. IMHO, being dismissive of those who are bored of running the same gamut for the fiftieth time shows a lack of respect for those who've shown so much.

[Taven]

This isn't about hierarchy. Karma, in theory, is a reflection of a player's respect for the game. Respect shown through dedication to the realism of their character and the surrounding game world.  This respect is rewarded with trust, in the form of karma --- which unlocks cool races/classes --- I personally don't see the problem with this trust leapfrogging the early grind as well.  The argument that higher skills are already available via special app further validates the argument that karma based boosting would do little to disrupt to current system...in fact it could help with retention. IMHO, being dismissive of those who are bored of running the same gamut for the fiftieth time shows a lack of respect for those who've shown so much.

I see two different purposals being discussed.

1. The ability to use karma to get a skill-boosted PC and an instant spot in a clan.
2. The ability to use karma to get a skill-boosted PC.

I don't like either of these ideas. I think if you want it, you should have to special app it. To repeat:

I don't like this idea. I see the reasons for suggesting it, but I don't like it. We already have complaints about magick abuse, or if karma is fair, or the ratio of things. I know it isn't meant to be this way, but I think some players will see it as a way to do just enough role-playing to get out of it. No amount of background can make up for experiances IC, and adding an "old" member of a unit to a clan would just be jarring, even if they were "transferred." I think that if a person wants to have a PC with boosted skills starting in a clan, they should need to apply for it. Otherwise, I think you'd begin to rarely ever see recruits or runners, everyone would just start in a clan.

Again, I can see why you'd purpose this, but I think that this is the wrong way to go about the goal.

I can see the appeal of wanting to start a character out with better skills from the get go, but;

I don't like this idea. I see the reasons for suggesting it, but I don't like it. We already have complaints about magick abuse, or if karma is fair, or the ratio of things. I know it isn't meant to be this way, but I think some players will see it as a way to do just enough role-playing to get out of it. No amount of background can make up for experiances IC, and adding an "old" member of a unit to a clan would just be jarring, even if they were "transferred." I think that if a person wants to have a PC with boosted skills starting in a clan, they should need to apply for it. Otherwise, I think you'd begin to rarely ever see recruits or runners, everyone would just start in a clan.

Again, I can see why you'd purpose this, but I think that this is the wrong way to go about the goal.

I just don't think that connecting it to Karma is really the answer.

[shadeoux]

Characters live too long as it is,

Was totally with you until you got here.

Are we playing the same game?

Then disregard that portion I guess. Its an observation that I believe is generally true. Used to be there would be an HRPT every so often to level out the characters, now some actually die of old-age. Eitherway, its a moot point in relation to the rest of my argument I think, and more of just a personally believed side-opinion.

WTB HRPT
if not HRPT then lets get an ShalooRPT or something, heard he likes to be evil.

[Taven]

My first post on this thread basically outlines by thoughts in response to this.

Um... Isn't that your first post on the thread? I tried checking your post history incase I'd missed it looking over the thread, and it's not there.

Unless you mean the "thread" of quotes? Does that mean that you're agreeing with Ampere or Fantasy Writer, then?

I'm confused.

[Ampere]

My first post on this thread basically outlines by thoughts in response to this.

Um... Isn't that your first post on the thread? I tried checking your post history incase I'd missed it looking over the thread, and it's not there.

Unless you mean the "thread" of quotes? Does that mean that you're agreeing with Ampere or Fantasy Writer, then?

I'm confused.

I suspect they've posted with their alt, and made an oopsie.

[FantasyWriter]

I am Thistlecus.

[The Spoony Bard]

I hate to make a comparison here, but after reading OP it sounds a LOT like the system in Shadows of Isildor. I've been playing that MUD a bit longer then Arm on and off for many years. I've yet to see any of the dire arguments that many people make against the suggestion. Noobs are not disenfranchised. The pole for grinding is not set higher. In fact IMO it allows more people get to the actual roleplaying, you know, instead of spending countless days just out in the wild, alone, grinding up skills.

In a game that has permadeath, there really shouldn't be that huge of a grind. It's both a waste of players time, and a cheap way out of having players play for the sake of playing instead of going out there and RPing.
Sometimes it's so bad that I refuse to play a guild that requires any kind of actual coded skills(which honestly isn't much, sorry but being an aide isn't the greatest fun in the universe) just so I don't feel that huge burn out when that 25-day grinded warrior dies because of some bug or a nasty critter who got a lucky dice roll.

The current system rewards players who have tons of time on their hand, have limited interactions with others(lets you not get involved in plots, thus not potentially endangering yourself). It doesn't reward people who get involved in plots and actually you know, roleplay. Power should not be reserved to someone just because they play more then you do. This is Armageddon, not World of Warcraft.

[number13]

The current system rewards players who have tons of time on their hand, have limited interactions with others(lets you not get involved in plots, thus not potentially endangering yourself). It doesn't reward people who get involved in plots and actually you know, roleplay. Power should not be reserved to someone just because they play more then you do. This is Armageddon, not World of Warcraft.

/signed

EDIT: One way it could work and still be "fair" is if characters that get a skill-bump based on karma, they also get a minor penalty to the stat roll. So a naturally grinded character would have a better chance of being more powerful (code-wise) after time invested in play.

[RogueGunslinger]

I hate to make a comparison here, but after reading OP it sounds a LOT like the system in Shadows of Isildor. I've been playing that MUD a bit longer then Arm on and off for many years. I've yet to see any of the dire arguments that many people make against the suggestion. Noobs are not disenfranchised. The pole for grinding is not set higher. In fact IMO it allows more people get to the actual roleplaying, you know, instead of spending countless days just out in the wild, alone, grinding up skills.

In a game that has permadeath, there really shouldn't be that huge of a grind. It's both a waste of players time, and a cheap way out of having players play for the sake of playing instead of going out there and RPing.
Sometimes it's so bad that I refuse to play a guild that requires any kind of actual coded skills(which honestly isn't much, sorry but being an aide isn't the greatest fun in the universe) just so I don't feel that huge burn out when that 25-day grinded warrior dies because of some bug or a nasty critter who got a lucky dice roll.

The current system rewards players who have tons of time on their hand, have limited interactions with others(lets you not get involved in plots, thus not potentially endangering yourself). It doesn't reward people who get involved in plots and actually you know, roleplay. Power should not be reserved to someone just because they play more then you do. This is Armageddon, not World of Warcraft.

That was the post I was looking for to sway my opinion.

[Jenred]

The current system rewards players who have tons of time on their hand, have limited interactions with others(lets you not get involved in plots, thus not potentially endangering yourself). It doesn't reward people who get involved in plots and actually you know, roleplay. Power should not be reserved to someone just because they play more then you do. This is Armageddon, not World of Warcraft.

Disagree completely. Characters in the past that I have seen engage the game as a story/living entity/real-world have been the players that from an outside standpoint have received the most "rewards". I.e.: skill bonuses, skill additions, race changes, clan creations, promotions to staff, special projects, etc.

Most of those above things have never been given as a reward to a character that does as little as possible.

[SMuz]

I know SoI does this, but SoI also allows gives similar advantages to fresh players. If you want to go with the veteran advantage, allow 0-karma players instant roles as well.

I don't think anybody including the OP is suggesting that anybody be able to start a PC with skill levels average to say a 50 day PC but instead closer to the average for a 10 day PC or even slightly lower.

Also, for myself I would not allow even the the OPs ideas for any karma class and only 1 karma race.

As it sits, because of the many secrets of the game and more, New players are already at an extreme disadvantage. The only thing that stops just about any of them from having to app a new PC every rl day for the next 6 months is the fact that most of the veteran players give new players TONS of leeway. This is not something I think would change for the worse if such a system was put in place. In fact, I'd be willing to bet since the vets would have to focus less on skills early on, they would have even more time to mentor new players.

Whoa.. hold on. 10 day PC is like.. 240 hours of grind (240 hours is a ridiculous amount of time for not roleplaying anyway) Even if it was 3 days, it would still be a lot.

Even if you skip up with a small boost, newbies still have to face it and I don't see why new players shouldn't get a 'skill boost' as well. Like.. start off all rangers with enough skill level to comfortably kill a gortok solo, but pickpockets and burglars would have to face the grind if they want to go hunting.

And sorry, but I don't think new players are at a disadvantage. There are a lot of new players outlasting old players, and personally, I don't grind much out of character and none of my characters died before 5 days (except the ones who tried mugging soldiers at 0-days).


I do want senior players to be a Private or Trooper.. but that's like 1 IC year of hard work and that's a bit too much to skip over, especially with the hazing period, IMO. By getting insta-promoted, I no longer have the opportunity to roleplay bullying you

[lingering]

For those in favor, let's talk numbers.

Assume a scale of 1-100.

1 is where new characters start.

100 is the 'max.'

Where do you want karma-skilled characters to start?

At 10?
20?
50?
80?
100?

I think a lot of people are talking about different ranges and it doesn't make for a serious argument.

I can see value in the retention of experienced players by skipping the 'grind' but I wonder about that a little.  My most enjoyable roles have been those where I started 'playing' from the start and allowed my character grow.  That includes a magicker who spent over three days played without ever casting a spell.  The role is, or used to be, the primary goal of the game not to win with skill-based goodness. 

Still, having played almost every class (yes, this is an alt account made to conceal my true identity) I can understand the desire to skip the newbie skill stage from time to time. Plus, if character concept is that of an experienced whatever then being able to jump right in with the skills to back it up does bring something to the table.

[SMuz]

Assuming that the average Trooper/Private is at 20, I'd say 7-15 for a new char is fine.. enough not to be one-hit-killed or crippled by a jozhal, but something that doesn't make the new players who've survived for 200 hours to feel that they'd be instantly brought down by a freshly spawned character. Actually, for 8-karma players, I wouldn't mind seeing them spawning at around 50-80 skill, it's just that I'd rather not see half of the players skipping the grind.

Oh, and definitely no bonus for karma races and guilds, except d-elves. If you're playing a fricking HG, you deserve every bit of that grind

[X-D]

I'm entertained by your statement of "have not died before 5 days" I average 30 myself.

As for the scale, I'm with Smuz on that, 7-15 is plenty.

Or, to be honest, I don't think any skill should be raised by more then 20% of the max possible.

And again, this should not be possible for any karma race or guild...aside from desert elves.

[Fathi]

Whoa.. hold on. 10 day PC is like.. 240 hours of grind (240 hours is a ridiculous amount of time for not roleplaying anyway) Even if it was 3 days, it would still be a lot.

Where are you getting this idea that a PC with 10 days played under their belt has acquired "240 hours of grind"?

Even Bynners get a large amount of off-time mixed in with all that sparring.

I think what most people in this thread are trying to say as far as a "10 day character" is a character that can meet some basic criteria, depending on guild, like "not dying to tiny prey animals" and maybe having branched a skill or two, more if they're a crafter.

I don't think anybody is trying to say a "10 day character" is a character that's literally acquired 240 hours of skill-upping.

/two cents

[number13]

Could assign new 'veteran' classes to various karma levels -- classes that have less potential for asshattery at lower levels.  So merchant at 2, then ranger, then warrior, pickpocket/burgular, and finally assassin at around 6.

[SMuz]

Where are you getting this idea that a PC with 10 days played under their belt has acquired "240 hours of grind"?

As I see it, the 10 days grind includes:
1. Skill grinding (spam bash, kill, steal, cast, etc)
2. Surviving with no skills.. walking outside the gates with inadequate equipment/no mount. Running. Jail time. Sid mining, clay collecting, salt gathering.. and using the money for food while you try to live.
3. Social grinding - meeting people, clan bosses. Having to kiss boots, run tedious errands. Running to another city and back for some IC reason, but accomplishing little in terms of skills.
4. Chores. Probably one of the main reason I love having everyone go through the lower rungs. Some of the best RP I've had in the game was doing chores with others. With a difference in rank, you're no longer doing chores with your lower level newbies... and it would totally suck if, as a first time Byn Runner, all the pros are up there, teaching me things, but are too high up to accompany me on shit duty.

All that is tedious. 240 hours of doing the boring, mindless stuff.

When I was starting off with this game, I highly appreciated all the people who were grinding up with me. Someone else who gets KO'ed in 5 seconds. Someone else who I could whine about raiders with in the tavern or talk about that mek I saw in the salt flats. And above all.. the fellow Runners who would hang out with me, start trouble, and get yelled at and whipped by the Lieutenant for the prank.

Like I said, I do like the grind, but I don't want to be doing it alone. The game is about harshness, and the only fun thing about harshness is going through it with someone (or against someone). Maybe if some of you would play with the newbies, rather than trying to train or beat them, it would be more fun.

That said, I see there are veteran players who are more interested in the high-level aspect of the game.. the big guys, big monsters, big plots, etc, and I suppose something should be done to accommodate those players, especially those who have gone through the low-level stuff 20 times over.

[RogueGunslinger]

What does any of that have to do with anything?

[SMuz]

To say that I like RPing the grind. With other people.

[Vessol]

And no one would be stopping you from doing that. However other players if they have enough trust invested in them by the staff, I'd see no issues with allowing them the ability to move ahead of it a bit. As someone who once played a leader PC in a clan that is notorious for being a starting point for noobs, I personally think it would be nothing but beneficial to have more talented players whom if they choose could start out in a rank that would fill out and provide more RP opportunities as well as provide assistance to these new players.

Another thing is that the whole idea that we need a grind just makes it hugely apparent about the metagame outside of the RP. I would make a concession if a character was forced to start at the age of 18 and thus at the "start" of their life and thus choose their path of where to go.
Then of course some will argue "well what if someone wants to start as an old man and RP that", which of course is a valid argument. But as with the argument about the metagame, why shouldn't the respect of being elderly and old be allowed to anyone? It is indeed quite an accomplishment in the harsh world of Zalanthas.
Arguing that it is unfair just points out the inherent important of the metagame to some players and their need to have the familiar upward climb that you find in more mainstream RPGs, like WoW. I think this is both disenfranchising to the fact that we put RP above all else and a living, breathing gameworld.

[SMuz]

In that case, I.. reluctantly agree.

I think it should be a custom thing, though. If you've proven you're mature enough to play a Byn Trooper at the start, it should be added, by hand to your list.

I don't want every 4-karma player being able to skip ahead and play a Byn Trooper, especially if they're the type who play merchants and have little fighter experience. But hell, if you know the Byn inside and out, had 1 year of RL time as a Lieutenant to the point you've memorized the docs, you should be given the right to play the Trooper any day, even with 1 or 2 karma. But no more than 10% of the player base should be allowed to do it.

If nobody plays the little recruits and Runners, then I think we'll have the same OOC hatred for magickers and psionicists.


On the grind, I think it's a necessary part of the game. Even though we are roleplaying, we have our own way to choose which way we like our stories to go. It's best handled with code to be as impartial as possible. A twink in a RPI is nothing more than a person who wants to roleplay as the most badass character all the time. Grinding is simply forcing you to take some time off and be the supporting actor.