Something else to do with Karma.

[Vessol]

I've noticed that many times that creating a new character is one of the most exciting parts of the game as the sheer amount of creativity and imagination you can pour into your character is a lot of fun, however is is also one of the most dull and boring parts too. As for the umpteenth time for many veteran players whom have had many characters, they yet again start as complete noobs. Regardless of their backgrounds, it has no effect what-so-ever on your character code wise. From a RP standpoint, It can be severely jarring to have your character whom is in his late 30's and has been a mercenary his whole life, fighting it out, beat by some kid who has codely been in the game longer then you. From a player standpoint you know it as "Oh Boy! Another character to grind to even remotely compete with others who have codely spent more time playing" And no matter how much awesome RP you put in that countless sparring sessions, it's still a grind.
In fact, while I have no data to prove this, I think this may be one of the biggest problems with player retention of long-term players.

Now to those patient enough to read through all this, what is my proposition?

Giving something else to do with your Karma besides restricted races and guilds. As karma is "Karma is simply a measure of trust that the staff members have in a given player's" taken directly from the page. I see no reason why that can't go hand in hand with other things.

My proposition is this.

Give players the ability to automatically fill roles in player creation. They'd of course have to describe in their background how they came to be in this role.
What roles would there be? Nothing that would require excessive set-up or involvement of the imms beyond simply reading over and approving it.
I'm talking about general membership. Such as coming in as a Byn Trooper, or a Arm of the Dragon Private or a Hunter/Equivalent in a Merchant House . No leadership positions(leave those for staff announcements). Of course if there was an excess of people taking a certain role, it could be discontinued till the staff deem it time to reopen it.
Perhaps also allowed players with sufficient karma to request a skill boost and detail in their background how they came upon this experience.
IG they would of course just RP transferring from another unit or equivalent in a clan.

One could argue that this could just be brought up with a special application. However that takes time on both ends for both the staff and the player and takes up valuable staff time. This I believe would streamline a more simpler process.

If 2 karma signifies the staff can trust a player enough to play a magicker, why can't they trust a player enough to start out as a Militia Private or a Byn Trooper? Obviously if they go in and abuse the role, like any other trusted role they would have a karma dock or would be talked to.

[shadeoux]

I like this idea, but that would mean Staff would have to set another set of standards per karma level, if its not already done.

[Taven]

I don't like this idea. I see the reasons for suggesting it, but I don't like it. We already have complaints about magick abuse, or if karma is fair, or the ratio of things. I know it isn't meant to be this way, but I think some players will see it as a way to do just enough role-playing to get out of it. No amount of background can make up for experiances IC, and adding an "old" member of a unit to a clan would just be jarring, even if they were "transferred." I think that if a person wants to have a PC with boosted skills starting in a clan, they should need to apply for it. Otherwise, I think you'd begin to rarely ever see recruits or runners, everyone would just start in a clan.

Again, I can see why you'd purpose this, but I think that this is the wrong way to go about the goal.

[number13]

Agree with this, mostly. The karma levels for beginning with a significant rank should be higher than two, and of course, players who abuse the privilege should have their karma stripped.

[Cutthroat]

The concept of this idea is nice as it gives players easier access to more options, but it seems to me that having this option open could cause the players of characters who are recruits or looking to join a clan to feel slighted when they see new PCs popping up of higher rank than them. Also, the way it works now, new characters distribute themselves fairly evenly amongst the clans, with a small group that stay independent. I think with this idea you would start seeing the amounts of players in each clan getting thrown way off balance.

[Bushranger]

From a RP standpoint, It can be severely jarring to have your character whom is in his late 30's and has been a mercenary his whole life, fighting it out, beat by some kid who has codely been in the game longer then you. From a player standpoint you know it as "Oh Boy! Another character to grind to even remotely compete with others who have codely spent more time playing" And no matter how much awesome RP you put in that countless sparring sessions, it's still a grind.
In fact, while I have no data to prove this, I think this may be one of the biggest problems with player retention of long-term players.

I don't see how allowing new PC's to go from cg to Byn Trooper or AoD Private or House DunkinDoughnuts Pastry Chef roles overcomes any of this problem though. The kid with 5 days played as a Recruit will still beat your late 30's mercenary who has just come in as a Trooper. There is still the grind to train up coded skills to become just as proficient a Trooper as the person who went though recruit training. Unless you mean that coming in at that position straight from CG with Karma includes skill bumps? You mentioned that as a tentative 'other' option though.. so please explain how being a 'Trooper' immediately instead of after a few weeks helps overcome the grind?

[RogueGunslinger]

Verbatim, from an E-mail sent to me about my requested Special-app. I think it pertains to this pretty well.

The character sounds interesting and fun, but isn't anything a player couldn't play through the normal process(and honestly most characters would benefit by being played through the learning and experience). There is nothing "special" that I see in this special application beyond you seeming to ask for a number of bumps in skills that basically allows you to skip a number of days of play time. This isn't really what the special application process is for. Special applications are for compelling concepts that need special setup, guilds/races you don't have access to, or special/extenuating requests that are outside the normal play possibilities. While a special application may call for a specific skill bump to back up something historically relevant to the concept, this isn't an across the board raise of skills to explain time played. There isn't any harm in making the request, but part of the enjoyment of playing armageddon is playing the character and watching it learn and evolve. And to keep it fair, we attempt to keep a level playing field where everyone needs to do that, giving them time to really get into their character. Have fun playing armageddon, and we look forward to your next application.

So if you can't do this through a special application process, I doubt that they will ever let you do through an automated system.

[Salt Merchant]

Once upon a time, when a character died, the next character started with some portion of the former's skills.

I liked this system and don't know why it was removed.

[lingering]

Once upon a time, when a character died, the next character started with some portion of the former's skills.

I liked this system and don't know why it was removed.

Five city elf assassins followed by a half-giant assassin.

[Taven]

Once upon a time, when a character died, the next character started with some portion of the former's skills.

I liked this system and don't know why it was removed.

Wait, what? How does that work? Please explain. If you had a warrior PC who had branched X warrior-skills, and then you made, oh, a magicker, how would that transfer? This confuses me.

[Salt Merchant]

Once upon a time, when a character died, the next character started with some portion of the former's skills.

I liked this system and don't know why it was removed.

Five city elf assassins followed by a half-giant assassin.

Skills, not stats. And it was only a fraction, not a main part. It wouldn't help your half-giant be god-like no matter how many elves came before it.

Basically, it meant you didn't have to keep starting as a total noob.

Wait, what? How does that work? Please explain. If you had a warrior PC who had branched X warrior-skills, and then you made, oh, a magicker, how would that transfer? This confuses me.

I'm not sure how it worked between classes. I think only the overlapping skills transferred. And nothing that was branched.

[Solifugid]

Once upon a time, when a character died, the next character started with some portion of the former's skills.

I liked this system and don't know why it was removed.

And to keep it fair, we attempt to keep a level playing field where everyone needs to do that, giving them time to really get into their character.

That looks like a good reason there.

[5 day lifespan]

Honestly I think I would much rather see skill bumps based on karma for the basic classes.  Granted from our POV, we have no idea how much this will mean.  1 day? 2 days? 3 days?  No idea how much of a stat boost we're talking here, but I think it would be appropriate.  Honestly I don't feel there is any difference in "getting more time to get to know your character" when it comes to picking up a character with better skills to start or picking up a character who is supposed to be a 40 yo noble matriarch who should have dozens of plots in play already.  Both will require time to get to know your character, but one of those is allowed (and regularly requested by staff) and the other is not.

Obviously if someone has karma there is less likely to be a chance for abuse, and it will also very likely DECREASE the number of people rolling magickers for the sheer glee of it if they have another option with their karma.  Dunno what the population is like in 'Nak atm, but it was pretty nutz.  Much rather see people spending Karma on 10 days worth of greasy merc than ANOTHER gemmer.

And honestly I think starting with stat boosts is a better idea than just starting with a rank.  I usually can tell someone's relative worth if I'm a noble and I hire some filthy Byn.  "A Sergeant, three troopers and a runner" is a team that can handle alot of shit.  But if two of those troopers are less than a day played... that could be 5 dead men and nothing accomplished.

[Fathi]

Once upon a time, when a character died, the next character started with some portion of the former's skills.

I liked this system and don't know why it was removed.

And to keep it fair, we attempt to keep a level playing field where everyone needs to do that, giving them time to really get into their character.

That looks like a good reason there.

"Hrm, you know what? Murder, Corruption, Betrayal just doesn't sound all that good anymore. How's about a new tagline?"

"Armageddon: Balance, Equality, Level Playing Fields sounds pretty awesome to me."

[rishenko]

"Hrm, you know what? Murder, Corruption, Betrayal just doesn't sound all that good anymore. How's about a new tagline?"

"Armageddon: Balance, Equality, Level Playing Fields sounds pretty awesome to me."

Please don't make Armageddon socialist.

[FantasyWriter]

"Hrm, you know what? Murder, Corruption, Betrayal just doesn't sound all that good anymore. How's about a new tagline?"

"Armageddon: Balance, Equality, Level Playing Fields sounds pretty awesome to me."

Please don't make Armageddon socialist.

LMAO!

[Salt Merchant]

And to keep it fair, we attempt to keep a level playing field where everyone needs to do that, giving them time to really get into their character.

That looks like a good reason there.

A level playing field? It doesn't exist in Arm, and in fact people have complained bitterly about this on the GDB. How the magicker characters of some players get powerful with so little effort, for instance.  How half-giants raiders can squelch anyone with a single subdue. Other characters, such as templars and nobles, just start out with more power than most characters will ever achieve. Etc. Talking about a level playing field isn't a good argument in a context like this.

Also, which staff member posted that? They don't always speak for the entire staff when they post.

[RogueGunslinger]

It was an E-mail. Not a post.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I think the simplest solution that hasn't yet been suggested: "Don't app shit you can't codedly back! And if you do, don't complain about it."

For instance, I remember apping one character who was older. In his background it said "He was an ex-byn SARGEANT, and world traveler." How do I justify that? "Then he retired and sold shit for 10 years and slowly got rusty and out of shape."

Another way you could look at the x amount of years pissed down the drain is this: Take a starting warrior, and a starting vivaduan. These are both human males from Allanak. Both commoners. Mother was a whore, father wasn't around, blah, blah. 70 inches 8 ten-stones, strait average stats, 1 hour played. Perfectly identical. The difference: one can bash, kick, and parry / one can piss in your flask and charge you for it. Wanna take a bet on who's gonna win in a boxing match? Gauging by their backgrounds, each has a 50/50 chance, right?  So, it's not a ridiculous idea to put all your starting coin on the wiggler, right? How about if the wiggler had 10 days? Or 20?

What's the difference between these two ordinary average commoners? Maybe the warrior learned a few moves in the Byn? Moves that, after years he has only just begun to perfect? During the same years that magicker learned 6 spells. Not the twelve other mages branched with their IG years in the Temple, but he's still pretty proud that he worked his way up from one spell! Maybe your character's a late bloomer? Maybe they were bed-ridden with a disease?

You don't just start life with innate skills (unless you're a magicker, and even then some magickers acquire it as they go). The fact that you can kick/bash/disarm means that you must have spent SOME time fighting in your past.  Maybe you're not as far as some people are after a decade, but hey, you're just a late bloomer!

And as far as advancing through a clan is concerned - time played has less to do with it than the RP you put into it. If you were a Bynner for 10 years, and now you're just a lowly Recruit in the AOD, show some of what you learned! Show some knowledge of tactics, or back-alleys of the city. Not what you can DO, but what you KNOW! Honestly, with crim-code backing you in the city, and sheer numbers backing you in the sands, how well you fight isn't even an issue.

I remember one of my militia members was such a shitty fighter, that after 1 year IG played (warrior class), the newb assassin recruits were beating his booty up and down the sparring floor. HOwever, I was bossing around players with IG months more play time in the clan than me. AND, when we rode to battle, I didn't do a DAMN thing except get knocked out 3 times, and land a single glancing blow on ONE enemy, throughout the whole skirmish. All the other kids in my unit got commemorative pins. I got a Medal of High Bravery or some such shit. I showed up late and spent half the battle sleeping. Haha. Still my favorite character to this day.

Anyways, experience doesn't mean you'll be good. I knew people in school who played a single sport their whole life and still weren't first string.

[Is Friday]

This is just FYI: A 1 hour warrior is going to destroy a 1 hour any-magicker-class in a boxing match.

[Jingo]

Balance -is- a concern of the staffs. I know this because they rejected my assassin app for multiple psionicist skils.

But I'm gonna agree with the op. Progressing through the first five to ten days of a character's skill development is like picking teeth. And there's no garuntee you'll survive it, making you start the same process over with another.

And if you're playing with someone who grinds a bit more twinkishly than you and gets better results; you get this nagging feeling at the back of the skull that you're falling behind in some sort of meta arms race.

[RogueGunslinger]

Balance -is- a concern of the staffs. I know this because they rejected my assassin app for multiple psionicist skils.

But I'm gonna agree with the op. Progressing through the first five to ten days of a character's skill development is like picking teeth. And there's no garuntee you'll survive it, making you start the same process over with another.

And if you're playing with someone who grinds a bit more twinkishly than you and gets better results; you get this nagging feeling at the back of the skull that you're falling behind in some sort of meta arms race.

[Xagon]

Balance -is- a concern of the staffs. I know this because they rejected my assassin app for multiple psionicist skils.

But I'm gonna agree with the op. Progressing through the first five to ten days of a character's skill development is like picking teeth. And there's no garuntee you'll survive it, making you start the same process over with another.

And if you're playing with someone who grinds a bit more twinkishly than you and gets better results; you get this nagging feeling at the back of the skull that you're falling behind in some sort of meta arms race.

I simply cannot understand for some reason. All of my characters have survived at least 5 days. Even my first newbie character.

[Jingo]

Balance -is- a concern of the staffs. I know this because they rejected my assassin app for multiple psionicist skils.

But I'm gonna agree with the op. Progressing through the first five to ten days of a character's skill development is like picking teeth. And there's no garuntee you'll survive it, making you start the same process over with another.

And if you're playing with someone who grinds a bit more twinkishly than you and gets better results; you get this nagging feeling at the back of the skull that you're falling behind in some sort of meta arms race.

I simply cannot understand for some reason. All of my characters have survived at least 5 days. Even my first newbie character.

Yeah, just play a few more characters. Or play them out of the cities. Trust me.

[Is Friday]

Balance -is- a concern of the staffs. I know this because they rejected my assassin app for multiple psionicist skils.

But I'm gonna agree with the op. Progressing through the first five to ten days of a character's skill development is like picking teeth. And there's no garuntee you'll survive it, making you start the same process over with another.

And if you're playing with someone who grinds a bit more twinkishly than you and gets better results; you get this nagging feeling at the back of the skull that you're falling behind in some sort of meta arms race.

I simply cannot understand for some reason. All of my characters have survived at least 5 days. Even my first newbie character.

Yeah, just play a few more characters. Or play them out of the cities. Trust me.

The fact that living out of a city was so dangerous was what attracted me to Arm altogether.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

This is just FYI: A 1 hour warrior is going to destroy a 1 hour any-magicker-class in a boxing match.

My point exactly. I realize I'm really bad at making points (my mind wanders), but what I was getting at is that if you think you're background as a Bynner means shit, then my krathi was a bynner for TWICE as long, and he's gonna beat you silly, and then barbaque your corpse too!

As it stands, that ain't gonna happen, because your fighter was in the Byn for 5 years, and my guy wasn't. Hence he can knock me on my ass and stomp my grill in while I'm in the middle of casting 'mon un halaster die mofo', and there ain't a THING I can do about it.

IDK. Very simply, I do not support this idea. Your background is more the experience your character has had. Your class is what he's learned through-out the process (and what he is STILL learning.) If your guy was in the Byn, show it in your RP.. You could be in the Army and still get beat up by a high-school bully. Keep going to drills and you'll get better.

[Jenred]

I do not support this idea for the mere fact that the minute someone has karma (and this idea is in place) they will generally stop playing "from scratch" characters in lieu of one of these karma-privileged experiences. The average person, acknowledging the "grind" inherent with the game would almost assuredly opt out of "a from scratch warrior" or a "semi-veteran warrior" that is what the from scratch one WOULD be, only sooner.

Suddenly the gap between newer players and experienced ones becomes bigger. People will begin to get bored of the pre-fab characters, and the same conundrum will repeat itself.

This is also disregarding the arguments that other players have brought up - the general imbalance/unfairness of the karma system, off-peak players not getting staff-scrutiny, etc, etc.



I think a better solution would be for players to pick more reasonable backgrounds and instead of having every character have a huge breadth of experience in their given field in their history, make more open-ended backgrounds and actually acquire that experience themselves. Instead of "was a Byn Sergeant" have "aspires to be a Byn Sergeant" and go out and do that in game.

Pre-fab concepts tend to die out pretty quickly because the fun of creating/developing them is gone.


Another alternate solution would just be more staff sponsored non-essential roles. This way you get the application process which levels the playing field, and a smaller, more controlled base of roles. But then again I could argue this point with my same argument above - instead of sponsoring these roles, build them in game through PC leaders.

So eitherway I cut it, even when I present solutions, I still can't really stick to them. I just generally don't think this is a good idea for the game as it stands now. If certain elements were different - skill growth, etc, then maybe it would work.


But I do agree with trying to break the grind, and think its a topic worth talking about.
I wouldn't mind seeing MORE classes, hybrid classes, or unique creation options available through karma... instead of just basically magicker skills, having more diverse crafting/fighting/sneaking skillsets... like instead of just "merchant" maybe a high karma guild that has something like cavilish-literacy, or a different variety of crafts at start, more money.
Or a specialized fighter guild. Something, I don't know.

[SMuz]

No, I don't go with this. It's nice to know that your Sergeant once went through the same shit-cleaning as you are doing as a Runner. It's nice to know that these 2 karma players are doing the same grinding. The grind in Arm is good, it's not even very steep. It's fun. The difficulty at the start forces you to be creative and go through some interesting experiences. And it's much, much satisfying knowing that you survived those early days.

If you don't think that experienced players should suffer the grind, then why should new players suffer it? It's bad enough that new players are only stuck with grunts, now they're effectively lower level grunts who can't hunt a jozhal without a senior's help. Should a 8-karma player suddenly have a character with the power of a 20-day warrior just because he qualifies for it and can build 20 days of background for his character?

You could still spec app an experienced warrior and are more likely to get it because of high karma. And I'd prefer it stays spec app only, because it keeps experienced characters rare.

[My 2 sids]

I <3 this idea!!  It's brilliant and we should do it!!!

It would add so much depth to clans if instead of one leadership PC and a bunch of new recruits we had Officers, recruits, and instant regulars/ Privates (heck, even sergeants and save promotions/ leadership for higher ranking officers)!

[SMuz]

Oh, and going with My 2 sids' highly sarcastic reply (), it also means that recruits (new players) will have a lot of trouble climbing up the ladder because there's always a new high karma player apping into a position higher than them. Which is so not cool. The noob character works his ass off to reach Trooper status, sucks up to the PCs and NPCs and the next day, some senior player pops into Trooper.

To quote someone from a PM, they'll feel like they haven't accomplished anything when some new player pops in with a higher rank than them. It happens already, with inactive characters becoming active again. But when someone gets an instant promotion because it's part of the code, it's not about balance, it's not about background, it's the fact that newer players won't get that feeling of accomplishment.

[My 2 sids]

I wasn't being sarcastic.

Look, I think a lot of newbies would benefit if they had someone to look up to ICly.  Esp. in non-combat roles where one may get frustrated trying to figure out the crafting code or how to be an aide/ merchant/ etc.

[lingering]

I wasn't being sarcastic.

Look, I think a lot of newbies would benefit if they had someone to look up to ICly.  Esp. in non-combat roles where one may get frustrated trying to figure out the crafting code or how to be an aide/ merchant/ etc.

That's what helpers are for.

To be able to get higher skilled characters through karma is a bad idea.  That will lead to further calls of favoritism and cause endless headaches for the staff. 

If you want a character to start out as a Byn Sergeant or a House Officer then app it directly with the clan immortals involved.  If you want extra skills then put in the special app.  Chances are if the concept makes sense and doesn't go overboard then you will get it but there will be a long delay since special apps tend to get a lower priority.

To make this process automatic is just calling for grief. 

[X-D]

I agree with the OP.

Though I think it should be karma AND years played.

Fact is, after a while the grind is NOT fun, far from it, it begins to push many older players away. We know exactly how to grind a PC up to what we consider starting level for said PC, we have done it many times, in some cases hundreds of times. It becomes boring and more then a little annoying. Balance, Give me a break. I've watched many PCs skill up at rates many times that of any newb anyway so there is no balance and should not be.

Some people have said that when they start a new PC they spend the first few hours getting outfitted as they think the PC with backround and personality should be, and in this time they don't RP and in fact avoid interaction.  Others, in most cases from what I can see do the same thing but take it farther, I admit I am one of them. I will avoid/ignore other PCs during the outfitting stage and then I will keep my PC VERY low key from the PC game world until I have the skills to the point they should already be in the PCs life.

Sure, there was a time when I had fun bringing a PC up from nothing, that is no longer the case, hell, I make rather old PCs now just so they can have some world knowledge because it has become pretty much impossible for me to fake not knowing most of what I consider basic IC knowledge. I've played long enough that I can and sometimes do, blind walk anywhere in the game I want. Bleh.

Again, all for ideas like the OPs.

[Krath]

I agree with the OP.

Though I think it should be karma AND years played.

Fact is, after a while the grind is NOT fun, far from it, it begins to push many older players away. We know exactly how to grind a PC up to what we consider starting level for said PC, we have done it many times, in some cases hundreds of times. It becomes boring and more then a little annoying. Balance, Give me a break. I've watched many PCs skill up at rates many times that of any newb anyway so there is no balance and should not be.

Some people have said that when they start a new PC they spend the first few hours getting outfitted as they think the PC with backround and personality should be, and in this time they don't RP and in fact avoid interaction.  Others, in most cases from what I can see do the same thing but take it farther, I admit I am one of them. I will avoid/ignore other PCs during the outfitting stage and then I will keep my PC VERY low key from the PC game world until I have the skills to the point they should already be in the PCs life.

Sure, there was a time when I had fun bringing a PC up from nothing, that is no longer the case, hell, I make rather old PCs now just so they can have some world knowledge because it has become pretty much impossible for me to fake not knowing most of what I consider basic IC knowledge. I've played long enough that I can and sometimes do, blind walk anywhere in the game I want. Bleh.

Again, all for ideas like the OPs.

What he said.

[RogueGunslinger]

Yeah. I'm like that only I've never gotten past the grind...

Edit: God I suck at this game.

[flurry]

I don't like the original suggestion, for a few reasons. For one thing, people would place less value on higher skilled characters. As it is now, a PC with a certain level of skills either worked to get there, or perhaps was a special application. Either way, the player has a good reason to hold onto that character, and others have a good reason to value that skilled character.

If entering the game with more developed skills were an option at one or two karma, then so many people would have that option that I'd guess that it would almost divide the game into haves and have-nots.

I also think working your way up is better for character development, more often than not.

[SMuz]

I'm all against this idea. It seems like everyone who supports it has been playing for a while. I'd like to see a newer player agree with this.

The reason I got hooked onto Armageddon and recommend it to all my friends is because a starting player character will be as good as an experienced player's character with enough survival skill and luck.  Once you get rid of that, I will honestly consider finding another MUD, because I would have to suffer the grind as a newbie, while all the pros skip through it. And I will certainly see no reason to recommend a MUD which openly disadvantages new players.

I think a better idea would be to fix the grind. Because even if you're a Trooper or Private with 0-day skills, you'd still have to grind your skills to the appropriate level. Grinding is an obsolete game mechanic anyway, designed to give the player a sense of satisfaction, especially in multiplayer. But so far, there's never been a better solution to it.

[Synthesis]

I like the grind.

I also like the OP's idea.

*shrug*

[X-D]

I'm gonna have to sorta target you here Smuz.

I don't think anybody including the OP is suggesting that anybody be able to start a PC with skill levels average to say a 50 day PC but instead closer to the average for a 10 day PC or even slightly lower.

Also, for myself I would not allow even the the OPs ideas for any karma class and only 1 karma race.

As it sits, because of the many secrets of the game and more, New players are already at an extreme disadvantage. The only thing that stops just about any of them from having to app a new PC every rl day for the next 6 months is the fact that most of the veteran players give new players TONS of leeway. This is not something I think would change for the worse if such a system was put in place. In fact, I'd be willing to bet since the vets would have to focus less on skills early on, they would have even more time to mentor new players.

[brytta.leofa]

I'd like to see things set up so that we generally have more Byn Troopers than Byn Runners.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'd like to see things set up so that we generally have more Byn Troopers than Byn Runners.

And privates to recruits. But this will never happen with the current system.

[Jingo]

I just want to point out that playing a social character is a good way to get away from the grind.

Try it. You'll be pleasantly suprised.

[Jenred]

Unfortunately, people seem to be taking the skill-side of this argument, something like: "I like this idea because I don't have to grind skills anymore". Thats the wrong way to view the discussion, and the game I think.

Just because people support the idea because they are "tired of having to skill-up characters" doesn't mean its a good, valid, or relevant idea to add into the game. The game has never been about convenient coded development, or coded aspects in general. The game has been about creating meaningful characters that have skills as a SECONDARY feature to supplement their concept.

Characters live too long as it is, we shouldn't make it easier by removing the weaker phase of their life. Otherwise they lose appreciation for where they came from and grow accustomed to being "decently strong/skilled" from the onset.


The idea will also cause characters to get bored. Because now they don't have to grind, and will do alot more spam-hunting or tavern-sitting or furthering the limits of what they have explored.

[Maso]

I haven't had any input on this thread yet.

No. For all the aforementioned reasons for being against it. I am against it. I hate the grind, but I don't want to not grind while other people have to.

[RogueGunslinger]

Characters live too long as it is,

Was totally with you until you got here.

Are we playing the same game?

[Jenred]

Characters live too long as it is,

Was totally with you until you got here.

Are we playing the same game?

Then disregard that portion I guess. Its an observation that I believe is generally true. Used to be there would be an HRPT every so often to level out the characters, now some actually die of old-age. Eitherway, its a moot point in relation to the rest of my argument I think, and more of just a personally believed side-opinion.

[RogueGunslinger]

Then I agree with your sentiments.

[Synthesis]

Unfortunately, people seem to be taking the skill-side of this argument, something like: "I like this idea because I don't have to grind skills anymore". Thats the wrong way to view the discussion, and the game I think.

Just because people support the idea because they are "tired of having to skill-up characters" doesn't mean its a good, valid, or relevant idea to add into the game. The game has never been about convenient coded development, or coded aspects in general. The game has been about creating meaningful characters that have skills as a SECONDARY feature to supplement their concept.

Characters live too long as it is, we shouldn't make it easier by removing the weaker phase of their life. Otherwise they lose appreciation for where they came from and grow accustomed to being "decently strong/skilled" from the onset.


The idea will also cause characters to get bored. Because now they don't have to grind, and will do alot more spam-hunting or tavern-sitting or furthering the limits of what they have explored.

All the spam-hunting I've ever done was while grinding...not afterward.

[FantasyWriter]

My two cents:

A year ago, I would have loved the idea: to have the option to start a combat based PC with slightly buffed skills.
I had the opportunity to play a spec app PC that could have killed nearly any readily seen NPC from start.

Even though I had a great background story and ideas for the future to work with, it took a lot of the enjoyment I get from "learning" how to kill certain NPCs (aka leveling up).  I think getting better at coded skill through long term RP and practice is one of the best parts of the game.

[UnderSeven]

The thing about the grind is, just raising the lower cap doesn't make the grind go away.  Quite the contrary it only means that people will grind to get higher. 

Lets take a quick look at the point behind the grind: 

1) Get on par with other pcs.  However if they started at X level than you still need to grind as much as you did before to get on par with them.  Letting you start at higher skill levels does nothing for this.

2) Get on par with npcs.  Well the npcs are there to enforce a harsh world, if everyone starts easily and quickly getting to a point that the world is no longer harsh the npcs will just get buffed and thus the grind remains unchanged.

My point is ultimately this: If you are making a fuss and effort at grinding then there maybe some of the point being missed.  Roleplay is the ultimately point I think to this game and therefore grinding for skill, yes it's unfun, but also not the point of the game. 

I think as far as this thread goes that we shouldn't give more to do with karma, infact I'd like to see less.  On another game where their version of karma rules, without special apps like we have here, or the ability to apply for special roles, nobles, merchants ect.  The only thing you can do is try to get their karma through hoping staff will notice you, but if you look at their statistics, most players don't have very much of it. The problem is if we have just 30 players and maybe ten staff, that's three players per staff to watch every second and more likely than not the staff have more to do than watch people every second.  They have email to answer, stuff to do in the game, coding. god only knows what else.  In other words they don't have the time to make Karma into an important system of measure.  Therefore I think more benefits to karma should be avoided because it is a very broken system in that regard.

Anyway there is my two cents.  Sometimes vet players move on and sometimes it is just their time to do it.

[My 2 sids]

My two cents:

A year ago, I would have loved the idea: to have the option to start a combat based PC with slightly buffed skills.
I had the opportunity to play a spec app PC that could have killed nearly any readily seen NPC from start.

It's not about skills. Heck, there are times a recruit PC can physically do better than an officer PC and no one really cares.

  I'm just saying that if the _player_ has a good understanding than let them start in a higher rank.  As a newbie I always appreciated having regulars/ lifers/ privates/ whatever  who were not commanding officers but higher ranking PCs.

For me, the current set up is like a high school where everyone starts off as freshmen with a very few special-apped teachers.  Where are the upper class men?  Where are the sophomores?   

It would add another layer to a PC society which is supposed to be very hierarchical anyways. 

[FantasyWriter]

The thing about the grind is, just raising the lower cap doesn't make the grind go away.  Quite the contrary it only means that people will grind to get higher. 

And the logic shall set us free.

[UnderSeven]

My two cents:

A year ago, I would have loved the idea: to have the option to start a combat based PC with slightly buffed skills.
I had the opportunity to play a spec app PC that could have killed nearly any readily seen NPC from start.

It's not about skills. Heck, there are times a recruit PC can physically do better than an officer PC and no one really cares.

  I'm just saying that if the _player_ has a good understanding than let them start in a higher rank.  As a newbie I always appreciated having regulars/ lifers/ privates/ whatever  who were not commanding officers but higher ranking PCs.

For me, the current set up is like a high school where everyone starts off as freshmen with a very few special-apped teachers.  Where are the upper class men?  Where are the sophomores?   

It would add another layer to a PC society which is supposed to be very hierarchical anyways. 

Icly yes, there is a hierarchy, oocly not so much.  Besides which it is possible to start with higher skills, via special application.  But for reasons mentioned in my other post it is for good reason, kept rare.

[FantasyWriter]

My two cents:

A year ago, I would have loved the idea: to have the option to start a combat based PC with slightly buffed skills.
I had the opportunity to play a spec app PC that could have killed nearly any readily seen NPC from start.

It's not about skills. Heck, there are times a recruit PC can physically do better than an officer PC and no one really cares.

  I'm just saying that if the _player_ has a good understanding than let them start in a higher rank.  As a newbie I always appreciated having regulars/ lifers/ privates/ whatever  who were not commanding officers but higher ranking PCs.

For me, the current set up is like a high school where everyone starts off as freshmen with a very few special-apped teachers.  Where are the upper class men?  Where are the sophomores?   

It would add another layer to a PC society which is supposed to be very hierarchical anyways. 

I apologize for the misunderstanding.
Since I understand now, here are my third and fourth cents:

If you see a need in a clan for an upper classman, write the staff for that clan with your concept and why you think your concept would benefit the game world.

If there's NOT a need, then it is unfair to the the people in the clan who are working to obtain the position IC for another player to have it given to them for spending ten minutes in chargen writing the PC up just because they happen to have a couple notches of karma on their belt.

[Ampere]

My two cents:

A year ago, I would have loved the idea: to have the option to start a combat based PC with slightly buffed skills.
I had the opportunity to play a spec app PC that could have killed nearly any readily seen NPC from start.

It's not about skills. Heck, there are times a recruit PC can physically do better than an officer PC and no one really cares.

  I'm just saying that if the _player_ has a good understanding than let them start in a higher rank.  As a newbie I always appreciated having regulars/ lifers/ privates/ whatever  who were not commanding officers but higher ranking PCs.

For me, the current set up is like a high school where everyone starts off as freshmen with a very few special-apped teachers.  Where are the upper class men?  Where are the sophomores?   

It would add another layer to a PC society which is supposed to be very hierarchical anyways. 

Icly yes, there is a hierarchy, oocly not so much.  Besides which it is possible to start with higher skills, via special application.  But for reasons mentioned in my other post it is for good reason, kept rare.

This isn't about hierarchy. Karma, in theory, is a reflection of a player's respect for the game. Respect shown through dedication to the realism of their character and the surrounding game world.  This respect is rewarded with trust, in the form of karma --- which unlocks cool races/classes --- I personally don't see the problem with this trust leapfrogging the early grind as well.  The argument that higher skills are already available via special app further validates the position that karma based boosting would do little to disrupt to current system...in fact it could help with retention. IMHO, being dismissive of those who are bored of running the same gamut for the fiftieth time shows a lack of respect for those who've shown so much.

[Taven]

This isn't about hierarchy. Karma, in theory, is a reflection of a player's respect for the game. Respect shown through dedication to the realism of their character and the surrounding game world.  This respect is rewarded with trust, in the form of karma --- which unlocks cool races/classes --- I personally don't see the problem with this trust leapfrogging the early grind as well.  The argument that higher skills are already available via special app further validates the argument that karma based boosting would do little to disrupt to current system...in fact it could help with retention. IMHO, being dismissive of those who are bored of running the same gamut for the fiftieth time shows a lack of respect for those who've shown so much.

I see two different purposals being discussed.

1. The ability to use karma to get a skill-boosted PC and an instant spot in a clan.
2. The ability to use karma to get a skill-boosted PC.

I don't like either of these ideas. I think if you want it, you should have to special app it. To repeat:

I don't like this idea. I see the reasons for suggesting it, but I don't like it. We already have complaints about magick abuse, or if karma is fair, or the ratio of things. I know it isn't meant to be this way, but I think some players will see it as a way to do just enough role-playing to get out of it. No amount of background can make up for experiances IC, and adding an "old" member of a unit to a clan would just be jarring, even if they were "transferred." I think that if a person wants to have a PC with boosted skills starting in a clan, they should need to apply for it. Otherwise, I think you'd begin to rarely ever see recruits or runners, everyone would just start in a clan.

Again, I can see why you'd purpose this, but I think that this is the wrong way to go about the goal.

I can see the appeal of wanting to start a character out with better skills from the get go, but;

I don't like this idea. I see the reasons for suggesting it, but I don't like it. We already have complaints about magick abuse, or if karma is fair, or the ratio of things. I know it isn't meant to be this way, but I think some players will see it as a way to do just enough role-playing to get out of it. No amount of background can make up for experiances IC, and adding an "old" member of a unit to a clan would just be jarring, even if they were "transferred." I think that if a person wants to have a PC with boosted skills starting in a clan, they should need to apply for it. Otherwise, I think you'd begin to rarely ever see recruits or runners, everyone would just start in a clan.

Again, I can see why you'd purpose this, but I think that this is the wrong way to go about the goal.

I just don't think that connecting it to Karma is really the answer.

[shadeoux]

Characters live too long as it is,

Was totally with you until you got here.

Are we playing the same game?

Then disregard that portion I guess. Its an observation that I believe is generally true. Used to be there would be an HRPT every so often to level out the characters, now some actually die of old-age. Eitherway, its a moot point in relation to the rest of my argument I think, and more of just a personally believed side-opinion.

WTB HRPT
if not HRPT then lets get an ShalooRPT or something, heard he likes to be evil.

[Taven]

My first post on this thread basically outlines by thoughts in response to this.

Um... Isn't that your first post on the thread? I tried checking your post history incase I'd missed it looking over the thread, and it's not there.

Unless you mean the "thread" of quotes? Does that mean that you're agreeing with Ampere or Fantasy Writer, then?

I'm confused.

[Ampere]

My first post on this thread basically outlines by thoughts in response to this.

Um... Isn't that your first post on the thread? I tried checking your post history incase I'd missed it looking over the thread, and it's not there.

Unless you mean the "thread" of quotes? Does that mean that you're agreeing with Ampere or Fantasy Writer, then?

I'm confused.

I suspect they've posted with their alt, and made an oopsie.

[FantasyWriter]

I am Thistlecus.

[The Spoony Bard]

I hate to make a comparison here, but after reading OP it sounds a LOT like the system in Shadows of Isildor. I've been playing that MUD a bit longer then Arm on and off for many years. I've yet to see any of the dire arguments that many people make against the suggestion. Noobs are not disenfranchised. The pole for grinding is not set higher. In fact IMO it allows more people get to the actual roleplaying, you know, instead of spending countless days just out in the wild, alone, grinding up skills.

In a game that has permadeath, there really shouldn't be that huge of a grind. It's both a waste of players time, and a cheap way out of having players play for the sake of playing instead of going out there and RPing.
Sometimes it's so bad that I refuse to play a guild that requires any kind of actual coded skills(which honestly isn't much, sorry but being an aide isn't the greatest fun in the universe) just so I don't feel that huge burn out when that 25-day grinded warrior dies because of some bug or a nasty critter who got a lucky dice roll.

The current system rewards players who have tons of time on their hand, have limited interactions with others(lets you not get involved in plots, thus not potentially endangering yourself). It doesn't reward people who get involved in plots and actually you know, roleplay. Power should not be reserved to someone just because they play more then you do. This is Armageddon, not World of Warcraft.

[number13]

The current system rewards players who have tons of time on their hand, have limited interactions with others(lets you not get involved in plots, thus not potentially endangering yourself). It doesn't reward people who get involved in plots and actually you know, roleplay. Power should not be reserved to someone just because they play more then you do. This is Armageddon, not World of Warcraft.

/signed

EDIT: One way it could work and still be "fair" is if characters that get a skill-bump based on karma, they also get a minor penalty to the stat roll. So a naturally grinded character would have a better chance of being more powerful (code-wise) after time invested in play.

[RogueGunslinger]

I hate to make a comparison here, but after reading OP it sounds a LOT like the system in Shadows of Isildor. I've been playing that MUD a bit longer then Arm on and off for many years. I've yet to see any of the dire arguments that many people make against the suggestion. Noobs are not disenfranchised. The pole for grinding is not set higher. In fact IMO it allows more people get to the actual roleplaying, you know, instead of spending countless days just out in the wild, alone, grinding up skills.

In a game that has permadeath, there really shouldn't be that huge of a grind. It's both a waste of players time, and a cheap way out of having players play for the sake of playing instead of going out there and RPing.
Sometimes it's so bad that I refuse to play a guild that requires any kind of actual coded skills(which honestly isn't much, sorry but being an aide isn't the greatest fun in the universe) just so I don't feel that huge burn out when that 25-day grinded warrior dies because of some bug or a nasty critter who got a lucky dice roll.

The current system rewards players who have tons of time on their hand, have limited interactions with others(lets you not get involved in plots, thus not potentially endangering yourself). It doesn't reward people who get involved in plots and actually you know, roleplay. Power should not be reserved to someone just because they play more then you do. This is Armageddon, not World of Warcraft.

That was the post I was looking for to sway my opinion.

[Jenred]

The current system rewards players who have tons of time on their hand, have limited interactions with others(lets you not get involved in plots, thus not potentially endangering yourself). It doesn't reward people who get involved in plots and actually you know, roleplay. Power should not be reserved to someone just because they play more then you do. This is Armageddon, not World of Warcraft.

Disagree completely. Characters in the past that I have seen engage the game as a story/living entity/real-world have been the players that from an outside standpoint have received the most "rewards". I.e.: skill bonuses, skill additions, race changes, clan creations, promotions to staff, special projects, etc.

Most of those above things have never been given as a reward to a character that does as little as possible.

[SMuz]

I know SoI does this, but SoI also allows gives similar advantages to fresh players. If you want to go with the veteran advantage, allow 0-karma players instant roles as well.

I don't think anybody including the OP is suggesting that anybody be able to start a PC with skill levels average to say a 50 day PC but instead closer to the average for a 10 day PC or even slightly lower.

Also, for myself I would not allow even the the OPs ideas for any karma class and only 1 karma race.

As it sits, because of the many secrets of the game and more, New players are already at an extreme disadvantage. The only thing that stops just about any of them from having to app a new PC every rl day for the next 6 months is the fact that most of the veteran players give new players TONS of leeway. This is not something I think would change for the worse if such a system was put in place. In fact, I'd be willing to bet since the vets would have to focus less on skills early on, they would have even more time to mentor new players.

Whoa.. hold on. 10 day PC is like.. 240 hours of grind (240 hours is a ridiculous amount of time for not roleplaying anyway) Even if it was 3 days, it would still be a lot.

Even if you skip up with a small boost, newbies still have to face it and I don't see why new players shouldn't get a 'skill boost' as well. Like.. start off all rangers with enough skill level to comfortably kill a gortok solo, but pickpockets and burglars would have to face the grind if they want to go hunting.

And sorry, but I don't think new players are at a disadvantage. There are a lot of new players outlasting old players, and personally, I don't grind much out of character and none of my characters died before 5 days (except the ones who tried mugging soldiers at 0-days).


I do want senior players to be a Private or Trooper.. but that's like 1 IC year of hard work and that's a bit too much to skip over, especially with the hazing period, IMO. By getting insta-promoted, I no longer have the opportunity to roleplay bullying you

[lingering]

For those in favor, let's talk numbers.

Assume a scale of 1-100.

1 is where new characters start.

100 is the 'max.'

Where do you want karma-skilled characters to start?

At 10?
20?
50?
80?
100?

I think a lot of people are talking about different ranges and it doesn't make for a serious argument.

I can see value in the retention of experienced players by skipping the 'grind' but I wonder about that a little.  My most enjoyable roles have been those where I started 'playing' from the start and allowed my character grow.  That includes a magicker who spent over three days played without ever casting a spell.  The role is, or used to be, the primary goal of the game not to win with skill-based goodness. 

Still, having played almost every class (yes, this is an alt account made to conceal my true identity) I can understand the desire to skip the newbie skill stage from time to time. Plus, if character concept is that of an experienced whatever then being able to jump right in with the skills to back it up does bring something to the table.

[SMuz]

Assuming that the average Trooper/Private is at 20, I'd say 7-15 for a new char is fine.. enough not to be one-hit-killed or crippled by a jozhal, but something that doesn't make the new players who've survived for 200 hours to feel that they'd be instantly brought down by a freshly spawned character. Actually, for 8-karma players, I wouldn't mind seeing them spawning at around 50-80 skill, it's just that I'd rather not see half of the players skipping the grind.

Oh, and definitely no bonus for karma races and guilds, except d-elves. If you're playing a fricking HG, you deserve every bit of that grind

[X-D]

I'm entertained by your statement of "have not died before 5 days" I average 30 myself.

As for the scale, I'm with Smuz on that, 7-15 is plenty.

Or, to be honest, I don't think any skill should be raised by more then 20% of the max possible.

And again, this should not be possible for any karma race or guild...aside from desert elves.

[Fathi]

Whoa.. hold on. 10 day PC is like.. 240 hours of grind (240 hours is a ridiculous amount of time for not roleplaying anyway) Even if it was 3 days, it would still be a lot.

Where are you getting this idea that a PC with 10 days played under their belt has acquired "240 hours of grind"?

Even Bynners get a large amount of off-time mixed in with all that sparring.

I think what most people in this thread are trying to say as far as a "10 day character" is a character that can meet some basic criteria, depending on guild, like "not dying to tiny prey animals" and maybe having branched a skill or two, more if they're a crafter.

I don't think anybody is trying to say a "10 day character" is a character that's literally acquired 240 hours of skill-upping.

/two cents

[number13]

Could assign new 'veteran' classes to various karma levels -- classes that have less potential for asshattery at lower levels.  So merchant at 2, then ranger, then warrior, pickpocket/burgular, and finally assassin at around 6.

[SMuz]

Where are you getting this idea that a PC with 10 days played under their belt has acquired "240 hours of grind"?

As I see it, the 10 days grind includes:
1. Skill grinding (spam bash, kill, steal, cast, etc)
2. Surviving with no skills.. walking outside the gates with inadequate equipment/no mount. Running. Jail time. Sid mining, clay collecting, salt gathering.. and using the money for food while you try to live.
3. Social grinding - meeting people, clan bosses. Having to kiss boots, run tedious errands. Running to another city and back for some IC reason, but accomplishing little in terms of skills.
4. Chores. Probably one of the main reason I love having everyone go through the lower rungs. Some of the best RP I've had in the game was doing chores with others. With a difference in rank, you're no longer doing chores with your lower level newbies... and it would totally suck if, as a first time Byn Runner, all the pros are up there, teaching me things, but are too high up to accompany me on shit duty.

All that is tedious. 240 hours of doing the boring, mindless stuff.

When I was starting off with this game, I highly appreciated all the people who were grinding up with me. Someone else who gets KO'ed in 5 seconds. Someone else who I could whine about raiders with in the tavern or talk about that mek I saw in the salt flats. And above all.. the fellow Runners who would hang out with me, start trouble, and get yelled at and whipped by the Lieutenant for the prank.

Like I said, I do like the grind, but I don't want to be doing it alone. The game is about harshness, and the only fun thing about harshness is going through it with someone (or against someone). Maybe if some of you would play with the newbies, rather than trying to train or beat them, it would be more fun.

That said, I see there are veteran players who are more interested in the high-level aspect of the game.. the big guys, big monsters, big plots, etc, and I suppose something should be done to accommodate those players, especially those who have gone through the low-level stuff 20 times over.

[RogueGunslinger]

What does any of that have to do with anything?

[SMuz]

To say that I like RPing the grind. With other people.

[Vessol]

And no one would be stopping you from doing that. However other players if they have enough trust invested in them by the staff, I'd see no issues with allowing them the ability to move ahead of it a bit. As someone who once played a leader PC in a clan that is notorious for being a starting point for noobs, I personally think it would be nothing but beneficial to have more talented players whom if they choose could start out in a rank that would fill out and provide more RP opportunities as well as provide assistance to these new players.

Another thing is that the whole idea that we need a grind just makes it hugely apparent about the metagame outside of the RP. I would make a concession if a character was forced to start at the age of 18 and thus at the "start" of their life and thus choose their path of where to go.
Then of course some will argue "well what if someone wants to start as an old man and RP that", which of course is a valid argument. But as with the argument about the metagame, why shouldn't the respect of being elderly and old be allowed to anyone? It is indeed quite an accomplishment in the harsh world of Zalanthas.
Arguing that it is unfair just points out the inherent important of the metagame to some players and their need to have the familiar upward climb that you find in more mainstream RPGs, like WoW. I think this is both disenfranchising to the fact that we put RP above all else and a living, breathing gameworld.

[SMuz]

In that case, I.. reluctantly agree.

I think it should be a custom thing, though. If you've proven you're mature enough to play a Byn Trooper at the start, it should be added, by hand to your list.

I don't want every 4-karma player being able to skip ahead and play a Byn Trooper, especially if they're the type who play merchants and have little fighter experience. But hell, if you know the Byn inside and out, had 1 year of RL time as a Lieutenant to the point you've memorized the docs, you should be given the right to play the Trooper any day, even with 1 or 2 karma. But no more than 10% of the player base should be allowed to do it.

If nobody plays the little recruits and Runners, then I think we'll have the same OOC hatred for magickers and psionicists.


On the grind, I think it's a necessary part of the game. Even though we are roleplaying, we have our own way to choose which way we like our stories to go. It's best handled with code to be as impartial as possible. A twink in a RPI is nothing more than a person who wants to roleplay as the most badass character all the time. Grinding is simply forcing you to take some time off and be the supporting actor.

[Morrolan]

While on the one hand, I would love to be able to avoid the grind...

I think it would be bad for the game to have any systemetized method for doing so.  Right now, everyone rolls the dice, and everyone takes their chances just the same.

[aside]I remember the days of keeping a percentage of your skills in your new class when you died.  This was back when we could still see our skill percentages, as well.  The people I felt it benefitted most were the people who would go out and create massive havoc, get killed, and then start ahead of everyone else for it...with none of the enemies that they had earned getting that powerful.[/aside]

I know how much the grind sucks.  Sometimes, I grit my teeth through it as much as anyone else (depending on class).  But, I believe it is necessary for the game.  The characters that develop from scratch are a bit more organic than those stiff, wooden ones we sometimes create ourselves.

Characters with a true history, influenced by other people, have a bit more depth and ring a little more true.  The grind is our sacrifice to make Armageddon a little more believable.

Morrolan

[a strange shadow]

The grind is our sacrifice to make Armageddon a little more believable.

Sums up my feelings on the matter.

[Drayab]

I am strongly against this. I do not want to see people getting skill buffs during chargen. Rank and high level of skill should be earned IG, not by some OOC construct. Also, wtf is with this 'grind' business? This is not WoW where you kill monsters to level up. In Armageddon, skill increases in the normal course of playing your character. If you are sick of sparring, go to the damn bar. You don't like spam hunting? Well, good, because you shouldn't be doing it.

[Fathi]

Though I wouldn't tie it to Karma, I'd be in favour of a system where people could app directly into a PC with mild increases to some of their skills, sort of like SOI's RPP system.

Armageddon is already hard as hell on anyone who doesn't have hours and hours a day, every day of the week, to dedicate to the game. Provided there was some sort of criteria on how these PCs were doled out and to whom, I think it could solve a lot of the frustrations that casual players end up developing.

I don't think players should be punished for not being able to play 30+ hours a week, but unfortunately, most of the code and the game's RP culture does just that.

On the other hand, the special app process can already handle this, to a degree. However, considering Dakurus' post on what special apps are and aren't likely to be accepted, I'd wonder what the success rate of people attempting to apply for skilled characters is.

[Synthesis]

It would be interesting if skill timers were so long that people who can play 12 hours a day wouldn't have any advantage.

If skill-increase timers were set to something like 24 or 48 hours, and the timer continued to run down while you were logged out, people who can only play 2-3 hours a week would be able to skill up just as fast as someone who puts in 10 hours a day.

Of course, you'd have to concomitantly increase the amount that skills can improve during each timer round.

Also, people who do nothing but train train train would still have an advantage...just possibly not quite so much.

[Eternal Strife]

From a RP standpoint, It can be severely jarring to have your character whom is in his late 30's and has been a mercenary his whole life, fighting it out, beat by some kid who has codely been in the game longer then you. From a player standpoint you know it as "Oh Boy! Another character to grind to even remotely compete with others who have codely spent more time playing" And no matter how much awesome RP you put in that countless sparring sessions, it's still a grind.
In fact, while I have no data to prove this, I think this may be one of the biggest problems with player retention of long-term players.

I don't see how allowing new PC's to go from cg to Byn Trooper or AoD Private or House DunkinDoughnuts Pastry Chef roles overcomes any of this problem though. The kid with 5 days played as a Recruit will still beat your late 30's mercenary who has just come in as a Trooper. There is still the grind to train up coded skills to become just as proficient a Trooper as the person who went though recruit training. Unless you mean that coming in at that position straight from CG with Karma includes skill bumps? You mentioned that as a tentative 'other' option though.. so please explain how being a 'Trooper' immediately instead of after a few weeks helps overcome the grind?

It proves a problem when you have players that are not familiar with the clan and its documentation (including the lore thats not documented). Some roles, such as the AOD, are very strict on documentation and one slip up could cause someone else and a few others. As well as having the staff chime in on your actions

[RogueGunslinger]

It would be interesting if skill timers were so long that people who can play 12 hours a day wouldn't have any advantage.

If skill-increase timers were set to something like 24 or 48 hours, and the timer continued to run down while you were logged out, people who can only play 2-3 hours a week would be able to skill up just as fast as someone who puts in 10 hours a day.

Of course, you'd have to concomitantly increase the amount that skills can improve during each timer round.

Also, people who do nothing but train train train would still have an advantage...just possibly not quite so much.

I believe it's set so you can go about a zalanthan day much like you would a real day. Training in the morning, lunch, lessons into he afternoon, and gaj time at night.

That said. I'd much rather have it like you said, as I'm a low playtimer.

[Posts for the Post God]

It would be interesting if skill timers were so long that people who can play 12 hours a day wouldn't have any advantage.

If skill-increase timers were set to something like 24 or 48 hours, and the timer continued to run down while you were logged out, people who can only play 2-3 hours a week would be able to skill up just as fast as someone who puts in 10 hours a day.

Of course, you'd have to concomitantly increase the amount that skills can improve during each timer round.

Also, people who do nothing but train train train would still have an advantage...just possibly not quite so much.

This is a very thoughtful idea and I hope staff at least consider it for Arm 2, since I doubt any changes to the skill system would occur in the current version.