Discussion of ramping roles for newer players

[Kryos]

I recently asked if the staff has considered an idea in http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,34688.0.html

It seems they have not, and so now my curiosity is growing.  Rather then re-type everything, I'll trust ye olde hyperlink to do the work for me and move the discussion forward.

What does the player base think of such an idea?  Have others observed or felt that barrier of frustration mentioned?  Do you think this type of staff-motivated action would be good for the game, new players, and veterans too?  All you lurkers out there (at hem, like me) get your input in there, please!  I'd love to read what new players themselves feel on the idea.

[mansa]

What is the problem?

Is it HOW DO YOU EARN KARMA ?

Is it the ability to play other character classes?  Or is it to get noticed from the staff?

Or something else?

[Synthesis]

I didn't get any karma for like 2-3 years, man.

Deal with it.

[mansa]

As for myself, I gained karma, and then special apped for my magickers.
Then I asked for my account notes, and received karma during that.

That was about 3 years of playing.  I'm still at the karma level I was at in 2001, and I've played nearly every class and race.  I use the special app system.

[tortall]

I've gotten plenty of attention from the staff. But then when I'm in a clan, I always work my butt off trying to make things better for everyone, even if I'm just a lowly hunter/crafter.

That being said, I've had only two karma for.... A while. Granted a lot of that time I wasn't playing, but still.

As for myself, I gained karma, and then special apped for my magickers.
Then I asked for my account notes, and received karma during that.

That was about 3 years of playing.  I'm still at the karma level I was at in 2001, and I've played nearly every class and race.  I use the special app system.

See this. This is me also.


I honestly don't know what to suggest here. Just play the game, RP the way you enjoy RPing, and have FUN. Special apps are overrated. I've had more fun playing human/warriors(even if they never end up fighting) than anything else.

[Malken]

But lets face it, it can already be quite difficult to earn trust with you guys, even for those who might deserve it.  To that end, I ask, have you ever considered a system where new players are offered a chance for lower-tier restricted roles?

Like Adhira told you, isn't that what the special app request tool is for? Now that you are only allowed to three a year, the wait shouldn't be as long as it used to be, I'm thinkin'..

The best way to start earning karma, in my opinion, is to go by it as if you were leveling up in a RPG..

Start by special app'ing for a desert elf, then do a great job at playing it, follow your tribe's docs and chances are, if you do all that, they will let you keep playing desert elves afterward, thus, receiving your first karma.

Then special app for a water or earth cleric, play it like it was a real person, and not a magicker with tons of coded spells, do a great job with this character as well, involve yourself around, don't spend all your time spam
casting (good luck!) and keep at it, and chances are, again, that they'll let you play them as much as you want afterward, thus, receiving your second karma.

Then try for a leader role, involve your clan mates in your plots, make things happen for others, show the staff that you can be trusted with such roles, and you'll get your 3rd karma, etc, etc...

[Kryos]

This isn't about *my* karma.  I'm still playing the game, and have not hit said wall.  But I can see it in the distance.  Not only that, but this isn't just about karma on the whole, its about restricted roles that can be filled with 0 karma class/race combinations and a chance for new players to directly prove themselves as capable.  Its about mutual trust between staff and player.  Its about improving the game.  Please steer the conversation back to what is intended.

[Malken]

This isn't about *my* karma.  I'm still playing the game, and have not hit said wall.  But I can see it in the distance.  Not only that, but this isn't just about karma on the whole, its about restricted roles that can be filled with 0 karma class/race combinations and a chance for new players to directly prove themselves as capable.  Its about mutual trust between staff and player.  Its about improving the game.  Please steer the conversation back to what is intended.

What are you talking about, then, exactly? Are you meaning like the roles they have in SoI being advertised and you pick them at chargen?

Role Title: EastSide Thug
Point of Contact: Vanth, Sanvean
Date Posted: Sun Mar 11 12:30:31 2009
Karma Requirement: 0 points
Looking for two or three city elves willing to take risks in the name of fame and fortune. You would be working for the infamous Gankin' Amos II. The role comes with a weekly
gourd of grey water and a fair share of your loot.

[Synthesis]

This isn't about *my* karma.  I'm still playing the game, and have not hit said wall.  But I can see it in the distance.  Not only that, but this isn't just about karma on the whole, its about restricted roles that can be filled with 0 karma class/race combinations and a chance for new players to directly prove themselves as capable.  Its about mutual trust between staff and player.  Its about improving the game.  Please steer the conversation back to what is intended.

What are you talking about, then, exactly? Are you meaning like the roles they have in SoI being advertised and you pick them at chargen?

Role Title: EastSide Thug
Point of Contact: Vanth, Sanvean
Date Posted: Sun Mar 11 12:30:31 2009
Karma Requirement: 0 points
Looking for two or three city elves willing to take risks in the name of fame and fortune. You would be working for the infamous Gankin' Amos II. The role comes with a weekly
gourd of grey water and a fair share of your loot.

lol, I would totally apply for that.

[Bogre]

This already happens occasionally when Imms look for Sergeants and Merchant House peoples.

[Kryos]

Only the staff knows what specific system would work for them, but the point of it would be this:  an uncontested shot at a mid-leadership or low-tier restricted role for a newer player, sort of like the roles Borges mentioned, or maybe role play intensive clans like the Tan, etc.

[staggerlee]

Malken is right. This is very good advice:

But lets face it, it can already be quite difficult to earn trust with you guys, even for those who might deserve it.  To that end, I ask, have you ever considered a system where new players are offered a chance for lower-tier restricted roles?

Like Adhira told you, isn't that what the special app request tool is for? Now that you are only allowed to three a year, the wait shouldn't be as long as it used to be, I'm thinkin'..

The best way to start earning karma, in my opinion, is to go by it as if you were leveling up in a RPG..

Start by special app'ing for a desert elf, then do a great job at playing it, follow your tribe's docs and chances are, if you do all that, they will let you keep playing desert elves afterward, thus, receiving your first karma.

Then special app for a water or earth cleric, play it like it was a real person, and not a magicker with tons of coded spells, do a great job with this character as well, involve yourself around, don't spend all your time spam
casting (good luck!) and keep at it, and chances are, again, that they'll let you play them as much as you want afterward, thus, receiving your second karma.

Then try for a leader role, involve your clan mates in your plots, make things happen for others, show the staff that you can be trusted with such roles, and you'll get your 3rd karma, etc, etc...

Only the staff knows what specific system would work for them, but the point of it would be this:  an uncontested shot at a mid-leadership or low-tier restricted role for a newer player, sort of like the roles Borges mentioned, or maybe role play intensive clans like the Tan, etc.

A lot of those roles are restricted because your average new player isn't ready for them. They're hard to play right, and hard to enjoy.
Learn to play the norm before you try to play the exceptions.

[a strange shadow]

Learn to play the norm before you try to play the exceptions.

Yes.

'sides, ordinary characters often end up living extraordinary lives.

[Malken]

Only the staff knows what specific system would work for them, but the point of it would be this:  an uncontested shot at a mid-leadership or low-tier restricted role for a newer player, sort of like the roles Borges mentioned, or maybe role play intensive clans like the Tan, etc.

You can easily get into mid-leadership roles without any karma, trust me! I made it to First Hunter of Kadius and I had a whole bunch of people working for me, when I only had 1 karma, I think, if at all.. Maybe I had 0 karma, at the time..

It didn't take that long, either, to do it.. I made sure that the PCs and the Staff of Kadius could trust me, and with time,  I was promoted, and promoted, and promoted again..

You can get in any clans you want with time and effort, except for one or two.. If you want to play a 'gypsy' type of character but can't get in Muark, why not go for another human tribe in the meantime? My Jul Tavan was hanging out
with the Muark people all the time, and he was just as drunk and useless *grins and ducks* as any of them are. You don't need any karma to play in any of the other tribes, and will probably have just as much fun as if you were playing in
the Tan Muark.

Can you imagine what the game would be like if everyone was allowed to play a Vivudian or a Rukkian at 0 karma? There's already a thread right now saying that there's too many of them, and the role is restricted.. It's still so very easy to
get your shot at your first magicker, though.

I know you're not the one asking for advices, but tell your friends and those who quit that "If Malken can do it, so can you!".

[mansa]

Only the staff knows what specific system would work for them, but the point of it would be this:  an uncontested shot at a mid-leadership or low-tier restricted role for a newer player, sort of like the roles Borges mentioned, or maybe role play intensive clans like the Tan, etc.

Tan Muark App:

For an application, please include your account name, your GDB handle as well as a fleshed out concept.  Because the clan depends on interaction between its members, include your usual playtimes so that we can insure a good match-up.

Notes:
Y-chromosome character concepts: bonus points.
Players currently in sponsored or sensitive roles: negative points.

Questions, inquiries and completed applications can be sent to tan_muark@armageddon.org.

Halfling App:

Can you handle a possibly isolated role?  Can you really groove on the whole We-are-One in the endless circle of nature thing?  Three and a half feet tall, gigged on fermented berry juice and jam-packed up to their leaf-bestrewn dreadlocks with pure Deluxe, this, simply, is not to be missed.  Trust me.

Applications need to include account name, rough concept and lots of enthusiasm.   Deadline for consideration:  Friday, February 20th, midnight PST.

(please -- fanatic powergamers, staff, mean people and those in currently sensitive roles need not apply)

Red Fang App:

The Red Fangs may be the place for you.  This secretive and small tribe is known for being some of the most drastically disfigured people on the Pah, for fighting day in and day out for every scrap of meat and respect they can gather.  With clan documentation that is primarily player driven, the Red Fangs have seen a recent upswing in membership and have had more than a couple coded additions recently.

If you've played in them before, you will likely know how awesome they are, and how fun it is to not have the luxury of trusting anyone outside of your bloodline (not that you can trust them much farther, sometimes).  If you haven't experienced them, and are thinking of getting away from it all, now may very well be the time to try.

Interested players with desert elf karma are welcome to email desert_elves@armageddon.org for details on the documentation.

Kadius App:

We are now accepting applications for a family member of House Kadius.

This role would be stationed primarily in Tuluk, and is wide open as far as positions go, Agent, Hunter, or Merchant.

Please send your concepts to house_kadius@armageddon.org

Salarr App:

It's time to kick some major ass.

We need someone with big balls, or swollen ovaries, to play a Salarri family member. The potential for travel exists, as always, with the Greater Merchant Houses, but this role will be primarily located in the North. We are accepting applications for Merchants or Agents, but it is likely we will only be taking one player on this, so be sure to be awesome!

Send your applications to:

house_salarr@armageddon.org

Northern Noble App:

Account name / GDB name you most commonly use
House you are applying for
Proposed character name
Proposed character guild/subguild
Proposed character description/biography
Your familiarity with Tuluk on a scale of 1-5 (1 being very familiar, 5 being completely unfamiliar)
Your familiarity with this particular House on a scale of 1-5 (1 being very familiar, 5 being completely unfamiliar)
Your playtimes

Southern Noble App:

You must have few to zero recent negative account notes, be willing to play animatedly and actively, and be familiar with southern culture. Past experience with southern politics is a bonus but not required.

For all applications, please include:
- Your account name,
- Your GDB handle,
- A detailed character concept and background,
- The goals your character would focus on, and
- A brief summary of your past roles which you feel help prepare you for the role.

Noble roles must of course be full human and can be any mundane guild.

Please send your application or any questions you have via email to allanaki_nobles@armageddon.org

Of all of these apps, only 1 requires karma.
There are reasons why certain clans don't advertise.  The Guild is one example - because there is never a 'trust' to the people who play in the Guild.  Characters you apply directly into a position usually don't know the previous history of the clan / jump over current characters in the role.

Are you suggesting non-clan roles?  In my opinion, non-clan roles are isolated roles, and do not bring other players into the fun.

[Gimfalisette]

A lot of those roles are restricted because your average new player isn't ready for them. They're hard to play right, and hard to enjoy.
Learn to play the norm before you try to play the exceptions.

As others have said: Playing a noble, templar, GMH family member, Tan Muark tribal, Tuluki bard, desert elf, magicker, and many other "special" roles may appear much more fun and much easier than they actually are. I really cannot support the idea of throwing newer players into any of these roles "uncontested," for that reason; also, because there are many more-veteran players who have not yet had the chance to play these roles. Special roles have competition, and they -should- have competition, for the good of both individual players and the MUD as a whole.

I played a Tuluki bard on my 2nd PC, within a month of coming to ARM. And within 6 months of coming to ARM, I was playing a Tuluki noble. It's not really that difficult to gain the trust and notice of the imms, and thereby gain access to special roles.

[Kryos]

While these responses are indeed good food for thought, they aren't what matters.   Veterans saying they enjoy the mundane roles is wonderful and all, but they aren't new players.  And really, its the same old song and dance from the same narrow representative of the player base.  What we need to see is the opinions of those we don't see posting in every thread.  Besides, it gets tiresome seeing the same people harping that new people can't role play in Zalanthas, at least for me, because I find it a crock.

New players are  people who've not had a shot at doing something other then mundane and in my best guess, would really like a try at it.  And they would like that try because lets face it, not every player is you, mr. reader.  Not everyone wants to play the things you play, or enjoys the things you enjoy.  Of the starting guilds, there's pandering to achievers, explorers, socializers, and griefers.  But the role selection for each is well, quite narrow.  I'd say that S/G gets the broadest representation.  But the point its, its narrow no matter how you look at it.

Even if we 'broaden our gaming horizons' and test roles we don't normally enjoy, the amount of playability in certain roles can and will terminate for players after a period of time.  When that happens, you veterans suggest the spec app system or role calls, and I say to you: no.

New players aren't very likely to get chosen over the longer-term players who apply for role calls.  Why do I say this?  Because for every role call thats been done since I started playing, I've seen it happen.  The newer players just can't compete, sadly, and just aren't given the chance.  The ladder is being pulled up behind the veterans and that can and does drive newer players away.  So instead of risking these crucial roles, another system needs to be in place.

As for the spec app system, its quite ponderous, it could take months and there's hardly a promise of success. Months is a very long time for a bored/frustrated new player to wait.  Its assumed that its always granted by the way others have spoken here and I know that's hardly the case.  Some new guy who doesn't have karma/low karma apps a karma spot that really appeals to him, I can't imagine that's given the ok too often.  But I'm mostly ignorant here, I have only a few samples that support my case, but support it well they do(as a note, I have *not* ever put in a spec app, going off what I know of my friend's efforts.).

Lets face it, if you get a 20 something or 30 something year old  player into Arm, he or she is going to *know* what type of character they enjoy role playing.  After playing that several times over, they are going to want more and in a perma-death situation that can happen rather quickly.  If the game is to retain these new players, they are going to need to have the shot at doing something that excites them.

[FuSoYa]

You can easily get into mid-leadership roles without any karma, trust me! I made it to First Hunter of Kadius and I had a whole bunch of people working for me, when I only had 0 karma.  I loved it!

Had to roll with Malken on that one.

Play the game Kryos, show you can be a character first and not a guild... it'll come in due time man.  Not sure what else to say but that.  Plus the aggressive way you are putting this forward doesn't make others look highly on the validity of your suggestions/ideas.

Brandon

[mansa]

To me, it sounds like the problem is that you don't have an idea for a role to play.

Or that once your character dies, and you make another, it seems like it's the same character again.

Am I correct as to guessing what the problem is?  Because, I'm still very confused as to what the actual issue is.

[Nyr]

New players aren't very likely to get chosen over the longer-term players who apply for role calls.  Why do I say this?  Because for every role call thats been done since I started playing, I've seen it happen.  The newer players just can't compete, sadly, and just aren't given the chance.  The ladder is being pulled up behind the veterans and that can and does drive newer players away.  So instead of risking these crucial roles, another system needs to be in place.

Over the past year, more than half of the roles I approved (or had a hand in getting approved) in clan-sponsored roles were first-timers.

To clarify:  they had never played such a role before. 
I don't mean "haven't played a Salarri yet but played a Kadian."  I mean "haven't played a GMH family member at all," or "never touched a noble role," or "I've always wanted to be a templar and I app a few times but I haven't ever gotten approved for one."  Sometimes, it's a combination of all of them:  "I have played long-term, dependable roles, but I have never been in a sponsored role before."

[Marauder Moe]

Sorry, I have to say it...

But lets face it, it can already be quite difficult to earn trust with you guys, even for those who might deserve it.  To that end, I ask, have you ever considered a system where new players are offered a chance for lower-tier restricted roles?  The specifics can vary, mind you, but a standard played for X and now gets offered a role either in low-tier karma or normally restricted (tribal clans, etc) type situation could be beneficial in many ways.

Umm, dude, we have a system like that.  It's called karma!

New players aren't very likely to get chosen over the longer-term players who apply for role calls.  Why do I say this?  Because for every role call thats been done since I started playing, I've seen it happen.  The newer players just can't compete, sadly, and just aren't given the chance.  The ladder is being pulled up behind the veterans and that can and does drive newer players away.  So instead of risking these crucial roles, another system needs to be in place.

You seem to be forgetting a crucial (but obvious, to me at least) fact: new players become veteran players!  It happens all the time.  In fact, believe it or not, every single veteran player of this game was once a new player.

[AmandaGreathouse]

<Halcyon> Is karma serving as intended, by which I mean, are trusted
  players needing to be demoted for failures, and, are the populations of rare
  roles being over or under limited by the settings?

<Sanvean> We rarely see trusted players needing to be demoted for
  failure, but it does happen sometimes. The populations of rare roles are
  definitely being limited, but I am not aware of complaints that they are
  overlimited

<Sanvean> If anything, though, I'd like to see us being a bit more
  liberal, there are always people being overlooked, in my opinion, by the
  very nature of the system. (done)

<Halcyon> Do you think that awarding more karma, since the spec app
  system in more limited now, might help retention?  (done)

<FantasyWriter> Any decisions or strong leanings on how the "karma"
  system for 2.arm will work when it goes up?

<Sanvean> Well, not much definitive. One thing I have proposed is that
  there be no karma system at first, in order to see how it
  goes without one, but it remains to be seen whether or not we'll do that.
  (done)

I wouldn't mind seeing it. In fact, I'm probably one of those that prefers the 'other' roles more than any of the normally available ones.

[Malken]

New players aren't very likely to get chosen over the longer-term players who apply for role calls.  Why do I say this?  Because for every role call thats been done since I started playing, I've seen it happen.  The newer players just can't compete, sadly, and just aren't given the chance.  The ladder is being pulled up behind the veterans and that can and does drive newer players away.  So instead of risking these crucial roles, another system needs to be in place.

You are quite wrong about that, some 'veteran' players can't even read the damn docs they are given and then totally mess up their roles, those players are probably not going to get picked again for quite some time.

I know so many so-called 'veterans' that can't be trusted with GMH or Nobility roles and I bet a Staffer would rather take a chance on a new player than those players, trust me.

Hrm, yah, what Nyr says.. I think Staff are more than happy to give you a chance until you mess up than the other way around.

And no, Kyros, you are wrong again, I'm a 'veteran', I guess, and I love playing magickers, and I understand why people want to play them as well, trust me, I cheer for the new players who want to be able to play them as well, actually,
unless it's a tribal, I probably never want to play mundane roles again, but you know what? It took me FIFTEEN years to be able to play the roles I'm playing lately, I don't think it's asking too much for the new players to play a few months
before they get the same chance, as well.

What do you want? Do you want new players to be able to play magickers right away? Again, I ask you, do you know what that would do to the mud? Maybe you know some guy who could be trusted right from the start, I believe that, but
I also know a dozen more players who couldn't be trusted with a simple human assassins yet they are allowed to play one right from the start but can't prove to the Staff that they can be trusted with higher karma classes even after years
of playing.

We can't divide magickers in half, we can't say, well, new players and 0 karma players should be allowed to play a Rukkian, but only with half of their spells, until they have acquired enough karma, then we'll give them the other half afterward..

I don't think any of us understands what you want, though, and we're really trying.. Do you think that new players should be able to play sorcerers and mindbenders? Hell no.. If the Staff think they should be able to, and your friend special app
one, then he will be accepted. If he's the greatest roleplayer ever and shine of trust, then I'm sure it will only take him just a few months to get all the karma he needs to be a sorcerer as much as he wants to, as well.. Otherwise, too many
can't be trusted vs those who should be.

Again, I bet that special apps will go much faster now that people only have three apps a year.. And again, I bet the Staff would be more than happy to give anyone a chance at the roles they advertise for, as long as your player notes are decent
enough. If they aren't, then can you really blame them, and then can't you agree that allowing someone with recent bad notes to play a powerful class isn't a very good idea?

Oh, and I just saw AmandaGreathouse's post, trust me, a karma-less Arm 2 is going to last... A week, at most

[SMuz]

I like karma, even when I have none. Only beef I have about it is not being able to play a mul or psionicist.

Yes, do special app. I know some of you may have only specific roles in mind.. but play something else to get a feel of the game before spec-apping. And the staff would have to deem your spec app logical - if it's being rejected, chances are that they don't believe you can handle it or it's too powerful (e.g. warrior with sneak).

Sorry, Kryos, but you can't simply play any role that you want. There's more to the game than simply enjoying roles.. if you want to grind up your karma, try playing a character with multiple personality flaws, and stick to those flaws, especially if they put your character at a disadvantage. I won't guarantee it'll work, but it may help, and it'll help you control your temptation to twink, which should prepare you for a higher karma class/race anyway.

[Gunnerblaster]

Hang on, a second.

Are you saying that new players to ARM be given leadership roles? What are you? Retarded? If they can barely understand the syntax, what makes you think they would have the ability to make good, interactive roleplayer leaders?

It takes alot of "something" to play a leadership role. That "something" comes through an OOC understanding of the game as you start really playing it.

I have seen cases where a new player is already speciall apping a 1 karma character on their 4th go - And I am all for it, but I don't think you should let that retard who idles in the Gaj or desert be a future leader if he does not even know how to log out.

[Dakurus]

Firstly, I'm going to say that I think that people are trying to answer your questions and discuss what you suggested, but I think it's pretty clear that they aren't sure exactly what it is that you've suggested. Therefore some of their answers and opinions may not be addressing the issue directly, but are certainly addressing things I'd hope are associated with it. Many are offering their experience and knowledge about the options that are available, and what can be done to access them, as well as what can be done to be recognized. These may not directly apply, but they are trying, and for better directed discussion, they need more clarity.

Secondly, I'm going to comment on your last post paragraph by paragraph.

While these responses are indeed good food for thought, they aren't what matters.   Veterans saying they enjoy the mundane roles is wonderful and all, but they aren't new players.  And really, its the same old song and dance from the same narrow representative of the player base.  What we need to see is the opinions of those we don't see posting in every thread.  Besides, it gets tiresome seeing the same people harping that new people can't role play in Zalanthas, at least for me, because I find it a crock.

Not to be picky, but when asking for discussion, opinions and sharing of knowledge, their responses do matter, and while I understand you likely didn't mean it like that, people can easily take it the wrong way. While I will admit veterans have a tendency to be more active on these forums, and often more opinionated, they also have a lot of experience to draw on with which to add to the discussion. As someone pointed out, veterans were once new players too, and trust me veterans have their difficulties too. Can veterans become jaded or close minded when it comes to new comer advice and ideas, yes, but I think that we have a good share that do try and be open, and it never hurts to remind them to be in a kind manner. As to a narrow representative and the same people posting, the forums aren't that much different then real life, in that some people are more verbose and opinionated then others. We try and encourage folks to post and share, and attempt to remind people to be civil and open. We moderate and serve warnings, but it's no where close to perfect. I don't honestly believe that folks believe that new players can't role play in Zalanthas. I do however think there is an obvious learning curve to IC/gameworld knowledge and the actual mechanics we use here. This doesn't make a new player less of a player, just one that is learning the system and progressing. In truth because so much of Zalanthas is virtual and a mix of in game representation, documentation, and forums, getting a grasp of it, even a specific house, area, or culture can take a long time. I as a staff member, who has played the game for well over a decade still have little grasp of certain areas.

New players are  people who've not had a shot at doing something other then mundane and in my best guess, would really like a try at it.  And they would like that try because lets face it, not every player is you, mr. reader.  Not everyone wants to play the things you play, or enjoys the things you enjoy.  Of the starting guilds, there's pandering to achievers, explorers, socializers, and griefers.  But the role selection for each is well, quite narrow.  I'd say that S/G gets the broadest representation.  But the point its, its narrow no matter how you look at it.

There is absolutely no reason that new players cannot special apply for a magicker guild. It's highly recommended that they apply for a low karma magicker guild. Magick is something some types of people have a huge interest and almost fetish about. More power to them. However it's also got more rules, culture, restrictions, and mechanics to learn on top of what a 0 karma guild has. We feel it's something that someone should learn about through experience (in game contact with PC magickers, documentation, how various cultures treat them), and because of the power that they can exert upon the world and their fellow players, trust is a consideration. This does not mean we do not grant low karma magicker roles to 0 or 1 karma players, we do. We just want it to be a good experience for you and your fellow players, and special applications is the way to do it. As to the classification of 0 karma guilds, I think that vision of their possibility it narrow. I can do almost anything in the world (beyond casting magicks, being certain races, and being a psi/templar) with those starting guilds. I can become an agent, or a merchant through hard work, become a commander, an aide, and so much else. Will it be easier if my guild skills help support my role, sure. And my examples we're a sad sampling, you can be a beggar, a hooligan, artist, musician, and so on. I'm far more limited by the number of people playing in roles that interact with mine then I am by my guild selection. (Ex: playing a musician when no one is interested in the arts, playing a guide when no one wants to hire your services)

Even if we 'broaden our gaming horizons' and test roles we don't normally enjoy, the amount of playability in certain roles can and will terminate for players after a period of time.  When that happens, you veterans suggest the spec app system or role calls, and I say to you: no.

New players aren't very likely to get chosen over the longer-term players who apply for role calls.  Why do I say this?  Because for every role call thats been done since I started playing, I've seen it happen.  The newer players just can't compete, sadly, and just aren't given the chance.  The ladder is being pulled up behind the veterans and that can and does drive newer players away.  So instead of risking these crucial roles, another system needs to be in place.

As for the spec app system, its quite ponderous, it could take months and there's hardly a promise of success. Months is a very long time for a bored/frustrated new player to wait.  Its assumed that its always granted by the way others have spoken here and I know that's hardly the case.  Some new guy who doesn't have karma/low karma apps a karma spot that really appeals to him, I can't imagine that's given the ok too often.  But I'm mostly ignorant here, I have only a few samples that support my case, but support it well they do(as a note, I have *not* ever put in a spec app, going off what I know of my friend's efforts.).

To using the tools and options we provide, to all players who are interested in pursuing such roles, I say, Yes.
I'm sorry it's your experience and impression that new players are turned down for recruited roles and special applications. I see the other side with a much more robust view and while it's certainly true in some cases, it's not true as a general rule. With all roles, we do look to see you have some experience in the area or culture for two main reasons:
1. We want you to have a good experience.
2. In the case of leadership roles, it's important that there is some continuity and understanding since you'll be managing other characters, some of whom have lots of experience and history with the tribe/house/clan. Additionally these roles are more burdensome, with requirements for regular updates, logins, and so on. These roles, we know from experience, are not for everyone.

That said, we absolutely do give newer players opportunties at these roles. As a strategy we often look to fill a role with an experienced player and a newer player, giving that new player the opportunity to learn with a mentor (even antagonistic) around. As to special apps, the oldest special application in the queue right now is from 3 days ago. Not months, not weeks, but 3 days. This does backlog from time to time, and we do fall down on the job, I apologize, we are volunteers and we do try. As long as folks keep their special applications within a few karma of their karma level, and are not applying to have a bunch of non-guild skills to their skillset, it has a good chance of being approved. I'm sorry for the person who is frustrated with their choice of roles, or waiting for email, or a special application, but to be honest, as I stated above, the choice of roles isn't narrow, and patience is required. If that's still the opinion of a person, that they just can't envision the roles to be more then just four guilds, but instead a large multitude of choices, me opening up a couple new guilds will not solve their disenchantment.

Lets face it, if you get a 20 something or 30 something year old  player into Arm, he or she is going to *know* what type of character they enjoy role playing.  After playing that several times over, they are going to want more and in a perma-death situation that can happen rather quickly.  If the game is to retain these new players, they are going to need to have the shot at doing something that excites them.

I think that some folks have interests and may know what types of role they are going to enjoy. However I think Armageddon is unlike any game out there, and that you really have to play it to find out if that role is really that much fun in Armageddon. I also think that players are more suited to certain roles, or certain archetypes, but it's really up to them to discover that and play the types they enjoy. I think most of the players can share their experiences with us as to what they've learned (Ex: Some don't like certain cultures, or the restrictions, some don't like leadership or the responsibility, some like exploring, some like Zalanthan politics, skullduggery, etc). In this game that learning experience takes time, and honestly, self awareness. I've seen players frustrate themselves with similar role after similar, thinking they'll just maybe this next time break the shell. Death can happen quickly here, which is another learned experience, because dying quick doesn't always really allow you go get a good view or good experience. Regardless, this game really isn't about instant gratification. This game less so then many offered today needs the player to evaluate what makes them feel good, motivated, and satisfied within the game itself and pursue that. One can't look at their xp bar, and get that next level in a couple hours, see the stats on that item and feel good that you got something better, or similar things. The interactions, the environment, and the other players are what drive most of those who play here, and patience comes easier for those that enjoy those things.

[Armaddict]

I was going to point something out as well, though it may not be exactly what you're looking for this discussion to be about.

Keep in mind that there is a delicate balance, as well.  As far as I know, very few people actually reach 'maximum karma', because it essentially says they are trusted enough to contribute with any of those roles at any given time.  The rest of the time, there is a population matter to worry about.  Not -everyone- can have all the magicker karma, because then it's possible for the population of the game to get utterly skewed to the point that there are more mages and half-giants than there are people to fill all the various mundane roles that are pretty well -needing- to be filled so that other special applications can -possibly- make their contributions.

As Dakarus said, those 0 karma guilds and races are not 'weak', they are just the things that enable you to do pretty well everything that needs to be done by the average, of which the world should always be full of.

The special application process is seriously not that big of an ordeal, and with just a little bit of waiting and time put into it, can land you pretty much any roles you want.  But generally, it is good to play a few of those 0 karma roles first because even after reading all the documentation, and reading the entire GDB, there is very little that can replace the actual experience of being in the game and seeing how things work.

[Maso]

Seriously, OP, special applications are the answer. They are there for the very reason of allowing people roles, who might be perfectly suited, but not have the karma yet for whatever reason. I have never had a problem with special app's, and as long as your reasonable you shouldn't either. Worst case scenario they say no, and you have to wait. But for low level karma stuff, it's more likely that you would be guided towards another role for learning purposes and watched in that role then given your special app, than they would say no entirely. The staff can be very accomodating so long as you are nice, reasonable and polite.

[Synthesis]

I think what the OP might be suggesting is the creation of a new subset of special application or sponsored roles.

Let's call them "newbie responsibility" roles.

These would be roles that are not terribly powerful, that aren't in particularly sensitive positions, yet offer something that is a step above the ordinary role, and observed more closely by the Staff.

Newbie players would have preference for these roles when they are announced, as they would be designed to offer new players the opportunity to prove themselves.

I can't think of any examples right off-hand, but I'm sure someone can come up with something.

[Taven]

Many Wise Things.

I just wanted to say, what while very long, I think that post is worth reading, for you folks who might just skim over it.

Very well written and helpful to newbies feeling "left out."

[Kassindra]

I think what the OP might be suggesting is the creation of a new subset of special application or sponsored roles.

Let's call them "newbie responsibility" roles.

These would be roles that are not terribly powerful, that aren't in particularly sensitive positions, yet offer something that is a step above the ordinary role, and observed more closely by the Staff.

Newbie players would have preference for these roles when they are announced, as they would be designed to offer new players the opportunity to prove themselves.

I can't think of any examples right off-hand, but I'm sure someone can come up with something.

My train of thought is inline with the above. It seems to be what he is suggesting to me from reading his earlier thread. Like, for persons who may be familiar with RPI muds or those select few who catch on quickly and say after three - six months of play or maybe less than that, get a chance to try out something with a little more experience instead of having to special app or wait on karma. Not every new player is a true true noob.

Edited to add: I've seen staff do this when they offered the warriors and slave roles a couple months back for the nobles in Tuluk. Things like that allow newer players to get noticed and they gain experience at the same time. So, I do not think the OP was suggesting newbies be tossed into a leadership role because you cannot go from the very bottom and just go straight into a leadership spot like that most times in a sponsored role, but something similar to what was offered by staff, that does not need a whole heap of experience but still gives a newer player a chance to stand out and prove themselves.

[Kol]

I'm a relitivly new player myself, and Arm is my first RPI MU*, and so far I've been happy to play the zero karma roles, as its helping me get a good grip on how to best play the game, I dont see the need to petition for Karma roles to be given to Newbs like myself straight off the bat, as I belive we dont have enough knowledge of In game mechanics to effectivly play out the role.

[Kassindra]

He's not saying to petition for karma roles. Please read the thread and look at Synthesis' quote and mine.

[staggerlee]

Many Wise Things.

I just wanted to say, what while very long, I think that post is worth reading, for you folks who might just skim over it.

Very well written and helpful to newbies feeling "left out."

Absolutely. Walls of text are intimidating, but this one deals with the issue at hand entirely, and quite well.

[NoteworthyFellow]

I can vouch that newer players can and do get sponsored roles in role calls.  When I played my first (and so far only) noble, I'd been playing less than a year and had zero karma.  There was also a more experienced--very experienced--player already playing a noble in that House, and he served as a mentor both to my character and to me as a player.

Anyway, apply for a role call if you want that role.  It can't hurt.  Worst case scenario, you get a polite rejection and perhaps even some comments on your application.  Could be a lot worse, right?

[Potaje]

Here Here, Yes love the rejection on role calls or special apps... what is it in Arm... oh yea, fail to get better.. same here. if you are rejected write a polite inquirer. I find as a new player the rejections open up as much an opportunity to understand the game and whats being looked for in those roles as playing them. It is my express opinion that the special application process works just fine... I have been playing for a very short while, and am an unknown newbie.. but through special apps. I have had the opportunity for two role openings and shot down for another.. I think the one I had been turned down opened my eyes more than the ones I had received. Yes, I am not beyond writing the staff back and asking questions for why it was rejected...generally with a response. Ha, skill upgrade... mild success..