Discussion of ramping roles for newer players

[Dakurus]

Firstly, I'm going to say that I think that people are trying to answer your questions and discuss what you suggested, but I think it's pretty clear that they aren't sure exactly what it is that you've suggested. Therefore some of their answers and opinions may not be addressing the issue directly, but are certainly addressing things I'd hope are associated with it. Many are offering their experience and knowledge about the options that are available, and what can be done to access them, as well as what can be done to be recognized. These may not directly apply, but they are trying, and for better directed discussion, they need more clarity.

Secondly, I'm going to comment on your last post paragraph by paragraph.

While these responses are indeed good food for thought, they aren't what matters.   Veterans saying they enjoy the mundane roles is wonderful and all, but they aren't new players.  And really, its the same old song and dance from the same narrow representative of the player base.  What we need to see is the opinions of those we don't see posting in every thread.  Besides, it gets tiresome seeing the same people harping that new people can't role play in Zalanthas, at least for me, because I find it a crock.

Not to be picky, but when asking for discussion, opinions and sharing of knowledge, their responses do matter, and while I understand you likely didn't mean it like that, people can easily take it the wrong way. While I will admit veterans have a tendency to be more active on these forums, and often more opinionated, they also have a lot of experience to draw on with which to add to the discussion. As someone pointed out, veterans were once new players too, and trust me veterans have their difficulties too. Can veterans become jaded or close minded when it comes to new comer advice and ideas, yes, but I think that we have a good share that do try and be open, and it never hurts to remind them to be in a kind manner. As to a narrow representative and the same people posting, the forums aren't that much different then real life, in that some people are more verbose and opinionated then others. We try and encourage folks to post and share, and attempt to remind people to be civil and open. We moderate and serve warnings, but it's no where close to perfect. I don't honestly believe that folks believe that new players can't role play in Zalanthas. I do however think there is an obvious learning curve to IC/gameworld knowledge and the actual mechanics we use here. This doesn't make a new player less of a player, just one that is learning the system and progressing. In truth because so much of Zalanthas is virtual and a mix of in game representation, documentation, and forums, getting a grasp of it, even a specific house, area, or culture can take a long time. I as a staff member, who has played the game for well over a decade still have little grasp of certain areas.

New players are  people who've not had a shot at doing something other then mundane and in my best guess, would really like a try at it.  And they would like that try because lets face it, not every player is you, mr. reader.  Not everyone wants to play the things you play, or enjoys the things you enjoy.  Of the starting guilds, there's pandering to achievers, explorers, socializers, and griefers.  But the role selection for each is well, quite narrow.  I'd say that S/G gets the broadest representation.  But the point its, its narrow no matter how you look at it.

There is absolutely no reason that new players cannot special apply for a magicker guild. It's highly recommended that they apply for a low karma magicker guild. Magick is something some types of people have a huge interest and almost fetish about. More power to them. However it's also got more rules, culture, restrictions, and mechanics to learn on top of what a 0 karma guild has. We feel it's something that someone should learn about through experience (in game contact with PC magickers, documentation, how various cultures treat them), and because of the power that they can exert upon the world and their fellow players, trust is a consideration. This does not mean we do not grant low karma magicker roles to 0 or 1 karma players, we do. We just want it to be a good experience for you and your fellow players, and special applications is the way to do it. As to the classification of 0 karma guilds, I think that vision of their possibility it narrow. I can do almost anything in the world (beyond casting magicks, being certain races, and being a psi/templar) with those starting guilds. I can become an agent, or a merchant through hard work, become a commander, an aide, and so much else. Will it be easier if my guild skills help support my role, sure. And my examples we're a sad sampling, you can be a beggar, a hooligan, artist, musician, and so on. I'm far more limited by the number of people playing in roles that interact with mine then I am by my guild selection. (Ex: playing a musician when no one is interested in the arts, playing a guide when no one wants to hire your services)

Even if we 'broaden our gaming horizons' and test roles we don't normally enjoy, the amount of playability in certain roles can and will terminate for players after a period of time.  When that happens, you veterans suggest the spec app system or role calls, and I say to you: no.

New players aren't very likely to get chosen over the longer-term players who apply for role calls.  Why do I say this?  Because for every role call thats been done since I started playing, I've seen it happen.  The newer players just can't compete, sadly, and just aren't given the chance.  The ladder is being pulled up behind the veterans and that can and does drive newer players away.  So instead of risking these crucial roles, another system needs to be in place.

As for the spec app system, its quite ponderous, it could take months and there's hardly a promise of success. Months is a very long time for a bored/frustrated new player to wait.  Its assumed that its always granted by the way others have spoken here and I know that's hardly the case.  Some new guy who doesn't have karma/low karma apps a karma spot that really appeals to him, I can't imagine that's given the ok too often.  But I'm mostly ignorant here, I have only a few samples that support my case, but support it well they do(as a note, I have *not* ever put in a spec app, going off what I know of my friend's efforts.).

To using the tools and options we provide, to all players who are interested in pursuing such roles, I say, Yes.
I'm sorry it's your experience and impression that new players are turned down for recruited roles and special applications. I see the other side with a much more robust view and while it's certainly true in some cases, it's not true as a general rule. With all roles, we do look to see you have some experience in the area or culture for two main reasons:
1. We want you to have a good experience.
2. In the case of leadership roles, it's important that there is some continuity and understanding since you'll be managing other characters, some of whom have lots of experience and history with the tribe/house/clan. Additionally these roles are more burdensome, with requirements for regular updates, logins, and so on. These roles, we know from experience, are not for everyone.

That said, we absolutely do give newer players opportunties at these roles. As a strategy we often look to fill a role with an experienced player and a newer player, giving that new player the opportunity to learn with a mentor (even antagonistic) around. As to special apps, the oldest special application in the queue right now is from 3 days ago. Not months, not weeks, but 3 days. This does backlog from time to time, and we do fall down on the job, I apologize, we are volunteers and we do try. As long as folks keep their special applications within a few karma of their karma level, and are not applying to have a bunch of non-guild skills to their skillset, it has a good chance of being approved. I'm sorry for the person who is frustrated with their choice of roles, or waiting for email, or a special application, but to be honest, as I stated above, the choice of roles isn't narrow, and patience is required. If that's still the opinion of a person, that they just can't envision the roles to be more then just four guilds, but instead a large multitude of choices, me opening up a couple new guilds will not solve their disenchantment.

Lets face it, if you get a 20 something or 30 something year old  player into Arm, he or she is going to *know* what type of character they enjoy role playing.  After playing that several times over, they are going to want more and in a perma-death situation that can happen rather quickly.  If the game is to retain these new players, they are going to need to have the shot at doing something that excites them.

I think that some folks have interests and may know what types of role they are going to enjoy. However I think Armageddon is unlike any game out there, and that you really have to play it to find out if that role is really that much fun in Armageddon. I also think that players are more suited to certain roles, or certain archetypes, but it's really up to them to discover that and play the types they enjoy. I think most of the players can share their experiences with us as to what they've learned (Ex: Some don't like certain cultures, or the restrictions, some don't like leadership or the responsibility, some like exploring, some like Zalanthan politics, skullduggery, etc). In this game that learning experience takes time, and honestly, self awareness. I've seen players frustrate themselves with similar role after similar, thinking they'll just maybe this next time break the shell. Death can happen quickly here, which is another learned experience, because dying quick doesn't always really allow you go get a good view or good experience. Regardless, this game really isn't about instant gratification. This game less so then many offered today needs the player to evaluate what makes them feel good, motivated, and satisfied within the game itself and pursue that. One can't look at their xp bar, and get that next level in a couple hours, see the stats on that item and feel good that you got something better, or similar things. The interactions, the environment, and the other players are what drive most of those who play here, and patience comes easier for those that enjoy those things.

[Armaddict]

I was going to point something out as well, though it may not be exactly what you're looking for this discussion to be about.

Keep in mind that there is a delicate balance, as well.  As far as I know, very few people actually reach 'maximum karma', because it essentially says they are trusted enough to contribute with any of those roles at any given time.  The rest of the time, there is a population matter to worry about.  Not -everyone- can have all the magicker karma, because then it's possible for the population of the game to get utterly skewed to the point that there are more mages and half-giants than there are people to fill all the various mundane roles that are pretty well -needing- to be filled so that other special applications can -possibly- make their contributions.

As Dakarus said, those 0 karma guilds and races are not 'weak', they are just the things that enable you to do pretty well everything that needs to be done by the average, of which the world should always be full of.

The special application process is seriously not that big of an ordeal, and with just a little bit of waiting and time put into it, can land you pretty much any roles you want.  But generally, it is good to play a few of those 0 karma roles first because even after reading all the documentation, and reading the entire GDB, there is very little that can replace the actual experience of being in the game and seeing how things work.

[Maso]

Seriously, OP, special applications are the answer. They are there for the very reason of allowing people roles, who might be perfectly suited, but not have the karma yet for whatever reason. I have never had a problem with special app's, and as long as your reasonable you shouldn't either. Worst case scenario they say no, and you have to wait. But for low level karma stuff, it's more likely that you would be guided towards another role for learning purposes and watched in that role then given your special app, than they would say no entirely. The staff can be very accomodating so long as you are nice, reasonable and polite.

[Synthesis]

I think what the OP might be suggesting is the creation of a new subset of special application or sponsored roles.

Let's call them "newbie responsibility" roles.

These would be roles that are not terribly powerful, that aren't in particularly sensitive positions, yet offer something that is a step above the ordinary role, and observed more closely by the Staff.

Newbie players would have preference for these roles when they are announced, as they would be designed to offer new players the opportunity to prove themselves.

I can't think of any examples right off-hand, but I'm sure someone can come up with something.

[Taven]

Many Wise Things.

I just wanted to say, what while very long, I think that post is worth reading, for you folks who might just skim over it.

Very well written and helpful to newbies feeling "left out."

[Kassindra]

I think what the OP might be suggesting is the creation of a new subset of special application or sponsored roles.

Let's call them "newbie responsibility" roles.

These would be roles that are not terribly powerful, that aren't in particularly sensitive positions, yet offer something that is a step above the ordinary role, and observed more closely by the Staff.

Newbie players would have preference for these roles when they are announced, as they would be designed to offer new players the opportunity to prove themselves.

I can't think of any examples right off-hand, but I'm sure someone can come up with something.

My train of thought is inline with the above. It seems to be what he is suggesting to me from reading his earlier thread. Like, for persons who may be familiar with RPI muds or those select few who catch on quickly and say after three - six months of play or maybe less than that, get a chance to try out something with a little more experience instead of having to special app or wait on karma. Not every new player is a true true noob.

Edited to add: I've seen staff do this when they offered the warriors and slave roles a couple months back for the nobles in Tuluk. Things like that allow newer players to get noticed and they gain experience at the same time. So, I do not think the OP was suggesting newbies be tossed into a leadership role because you cannot go from the very bottom and just go straight into a leadership spot like that most times in a sponsored role, but something similar to what was offered by staff, that does not need a whole heap of experience but still gives a newer player a chance to stand out and prove themselves.

[Kol]

I'm a relitivly new player myself, and Arm is my first RPI MU*, and so far I've been happy to play the zero karma roles, as its helping me get a good grip on how to best play the game, I dont see the need to petition for Karma roles to be given to Newbs like myself straight off the bat, as I belive we dont have enough knowledge of In game mechanics to effectivly play out the role.

[Kassindra]

He's not saying to petition for karma roles. Please read the thread and look at Synthesis' quote and mine.

[staggerlee]

Many Wise Things.

I just wanted to say, what while very long, I think that post is worth reading, for you folks who might just skim over it.

Very well written and helpful to newbies feeling "left out."

Absolutely. Walls of text are intimidating, but this one deals with the issue at hand entirely, and quite well.

[NoteworthyFellow]

I can vouch that newer players can and do get sponsored roles in role calls.  When I played my first (and so far only) noble, I'd been playing less than a year and had zero karma.  There was also a more experienced--very experienced--player already playing a noble in that House, and he served as a mentor both to my character and to me as a player.

Anyway, apply for a role call if you want that role.  It can't hurt.  Worst case scenario, you get a polite rejection and perhaps even some comments on your application.  Could be a lot worse, right?

[Potaje]

Here Here, Yes love the rejection on role calls or special apps... what is it in Arm... oh yea, fail to get better.. same here. if you are rejected write a polite inquirer. I find as a new player the rejections open up as much an opportunity to understand the game and whats being looked for in those roles as playing them. It is my express opinion that the special application process works just fine... I have been playing for a very short while, and am an unknown newbie.. but through special apps. I have had the opportunity for two role openings and shot down for another.. I think the one I had been turned down opened my eyes more than the ones I had received. Yes, I am not beyond writing the staff back and asking questions for why it was rejected...generally with a response. Ha, skill upgrade... mild success..