Discussion of ramping roles for newer players

[Kryos]

I recently asked if the staff has considered an idea in http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,34688.0.html

It seems they have not, and so now my curiosity is growing.  Rather then re-type everything, I'll trust ye olde hyperlink to do the work for me and move the discussion forward.

What does the player base think of such an idea?  Have others observed or felt that barrier of frustration mentioned?  Do you think this type of staff-motivated action would be good for the game, new players, and veterans too?  All you lurkers out there (at hem, like me) get your input in there, please!  I'd love to read what new players themselves feel on the idea.

[mansa]

What is the problem?

Is it HOW DO YOU EARN KARMA ?

Is it the ability to play other character classes?  Or is it to get noticed from the staff?

Or something else?

[Synthesis]

I didn't get any karma for like 2-3 years, man.

Deal with it.

[mansa]

As for myself, I gained karma, and then special apped for my magickers.
Then I asked for my account notes, and received karma during that.

That was about 3 years of playing.  I'm still at the karma level I was at in 2001, and I've played nearly every class and race.  I use the special app system.

[tortall]

I've gotten plenty of attention from the staff. But then when I'm in a clan, I always work my butt off trying to make things better for everyone, even if I'm just a lowly hunter/crafter.

That being said, I've had only two karma for.... A while. Granted a lot of that time I wasn't playing, but still.

As for myself, I gained karma, and then special apped for my magickers.
Then I asked for my account notes, and received karma during that.

That was about 3 years of playing.  I'm still at the karma level I was at in 2001, and I've played nearly every class and race.  I use the special app system.

See this. This is me also.


I honestly don't know what to suggest here. Just play the game, RP the way you enjoy RPing, and have FUN. Special apps are overrated. I've had more fun playing human/warriors(even if they never end up fighting) than anything else.

[Malken]

But lets face it, it can already be quite difficult to earn trust with you guys, even for those who might deserve it.  To that end, I ask, have you ever considered a system where new players are offered a chance for lower-tier restricted roles?

Like Adhira told you, isn't that what the special app request tool is for? Now that you are only allowed to three a year, the wait shouldn't be as long as it used to be, I'm thinkin'..

The best way to start earning karma, in my opinion, is to go by it as if you were leveling up in a RPG..

Start by special app'ing for a desert elf, then do a great job at playing it, follow your tribe's docs and chances are, if you do all that, they will let you keep playing desert elves afterward, thus, receiving your first karma.

Then special app for a water or earth cleric, play it like it was a real person, and not a magicker with tons of coded spells, do a great job with this character as well, involve yourself around, don't spend all your time spam
casting (good luck!) and keep at it, and chances are, again, that they'll let you play them as much as you want afterward, thus, receiving your second karma.

Then try for a leader role, involve your clan mates in your plots, make things happen for others, show the staff that you can be trusted with such roles, and you'll get your 3rd karma, etc, etc...

[Kryos]

This isn't about *my* karma.  I'm still playing the game, and have not hit said wall.  But I can see it in the distance.  Not only that, but this isn't just about karma on the whole, its about restricted roles that can be filled with 0 karma class/race combinations and a chance for new players to directly prove themselves as capable.  Its about mutual trust between staff and player.  Its about improving the game.  Please steer the conversation back to what is intended.

[Malken]

This isn't about *my* karma.  I'm still playing the game, and have not hit said wall.  But I can see it in the distance.  Not only that, but this isn't just about karma on the whole, its about restricted roles that can be filled with 0 karma class/race combinations and a chance for new players to directly prove themselves as capable.  Its about mutual trust between staff and player.  Its about improving the game.  Please steer the conversation back to what is intended.

What are you talking about, then, exactly? Are you meaning like the roles they have in SoI being advertised and you pick them at chargen?

Role Title: EastSide Thug
Point of Contact: Vanth, Sanvean
Date Posted: Sun Mar 11 12:30:31 2009
Karma Requirement: 0 points
Looking for two or three city elves willing to take risks in the name of fame and fortune. You would be working for the infamous Gankin' Amos II. The role comes with a weekly
gourd of grey water and a fair share of your loot.

[Synthesis]

This isn't about *my* karma.  I'm still playing the game, and have not hit said wall.  But I can see it in the distance.  Not only that, but this isn't just about karma on the whole, its about restricted roles that can be filled with 0 karma class/race combinations and a chance for new players to directly prove themselves as capable.  Its about mutual trust between staff and player.  Its about improving the game.  Please steer the conversation back to what is intended.

What are you talking about, then, exactly? Are you meaning like the roles they have in SoI being advertised and you pick them at chargen?

Role Title: EastSide Thug
Point of Contact: Vanth, Sanvean
Date Posted: Sun Mar 11 12:30:31 2009
Karma Requirement: 0 points
Looking for two or three city elves willing to take risks in the name of fame and fortune. You would be working for the infamous Gankin' Amos II. The role comes with a weekly
gourd of grey water and a fair share of your loot.

lol, I would totally apply for that.

[Bogre]

This already happens occasionally when Imms look for Sergeants and Merchant House peoples.

[Kryos]

Only the staff knows what specific system would work for them, but the point of it would be this:  an uncontested shot at a mid-leadership or low-tier restricted role for a newer player, sort of like the roles Borges mentioned, or maybe role play intensive clans like the Tan, etc.

[staggerlee]

Malken is right. This is very good advice:

But lets face it, it can already be quite difficult to earn trust with you guys, even for those who might deserve it.  To that end, I ask, have you ever considered a system where new players are offered a chance for lower-tier restricted roles?

Like Adhira told you, isn't that what the special app request tool is for? Now that you are only allowed to three a year, the wait shouldn't be as long as it used to be, I'm thinkin'..

The best way to start earning karma, in my opinion, is to go by it as if you were leveling up in a RPG..

Start by special app'ing for a desert elf, then do a great job at playing it, follow your tribe's docs and chances are, if you do all that, they will let you keep playing desert elves afterward, thus, receiving your first karma.

Then special app for a water or earth cleric, play it like it was a real person, and not a magicker with tons of coded spells, do a great job with this character as well, involve yourself around, don't spend all your time spam
casting (good luck!) and keep at it, and chances are, again, that they'll let you play them as much as you want afterward, thus, receiving your second karma.

Then try for a leader role, involve your clan mates in your plots, make things happen for others, show the staff that you can be trusted with such roles, and you'll get your 3rd karma, etc, etc...

Only the staff knows what specific system would work for them, but the point of it would be this:  an uncontested shot at a mid-leadership or low-tier restricted role for a newer player, sort of like the roles Borges mentioned, or maybe role play intensive clans like the Tan, etc.

A lot of those roles are restricted because your average new player isn't ready for them. They're hard to play right, and hard to enjoy.
Learn to play the norm before you try to play the exceptions.

[a strange shadow]

Learn to play the norm before you try to play the exceptions.

Yes.

'sides, ordinary characters often end up living extraordinary lives.

[Malken]

Only the staff knows what specific system would work for them, but the point of it would be this:  an uncontested shot at a mid-leadership or low-tier restricted role for a newer player, sort of like the roles Borges mentioned, or maybe role play intensive clans like the Tan, etc.

You can easily get into mid-leadership roles without any karma, trust me! I made it to First Hunter of Kadius and I had a whole bunch of people working for me, when I only had 1 karma, I think, if at all.. Maybe I had 0 karma, at the time..

It didn't take that long, either, to do it.. I made sure that the PCs and the Staff of Kadius could trust me, and with time,  I was promoted, and promoted, and promoted again..

You can get in any clans you want with time and effort, except for one or two.. If you want to play a 'gypsy' type of character but can't get in Muark, why not go for another human tribe in the meantime? My Jul Tavan was hanging out
with the Muark people all the time, and he was just as drunk and useless *grins and ducks* as any of them are. You don't need any karma to play in any of the other tribes, and will probably have just as much fun as if you were playing in
the Tan Muark.

Can you imagine what the game would be like if everyone was allowed to play a Vivudian or a Rukkian at 0 karma? There's already a thread right now saying that there's too many of them, and the role is restricted.. It's still so very easy to
get your shot at your first magicker, though.

I know you're not the one asking for advices, but tell your friends and those who quit that "If Malken can do it, so can you!".

[mansa]

Only the staff knows what specific system would work for them, but the point of it would be this:  an uncontested shot at a mid-leadership or low-tier restricted role for a newer player, sort of like the roles Borges mentioned, or maybe role play intensive clans like the Tan, etc.

Tan Muark App:

For an application, please include your account name, your GDB handle as well as a fleshed out concept.  Because the clan depends on interaction between its members, include your usual playtimes so that we can insure a good match-up.

Notes:
Y-chromosome character concepts: bonus points.
Players currently in sponsored or sensitive roles: negative points.

Questions, inquiries and completed applications can be sent to tan_muark@armageddon.org.

Halfling App:

Can you handle a possibly isolated role?  Can you really groove on the whole We-are-One in the endless circle of nature thing?  Three and a half feet tall, gigged on fermented berry juice and jam-packed up to their leaf-bestrewn dreadlocks with pure Deluxe, this, simply, is not to be missed.  Trust me.

Applications need to include account name, rough concept and lots of enthusiasm.   Deadline for consideration:  Friday, February 20th, midnight PST.

(please -- fanatic powergamers, staff, mean people and those in currently sensitive roles need not apply)

Red Fang App:

The Red Fangs may be the place for you.  This secretive and small tribe is known for being some of the most drastically disfigured people on the Pah, for fighting day in and day out for every scrap of meat and respect they can gather.  With clan documentation that is primarily player driven, the Red Fangs have seen a recent upswing in membership and have had more than a couple coded additions recently.

If you've played in them before, you will likely know how awesome they are, and how fun it is to not have the luxury of trusting anyone outside of your bloodline (not that you can trust them much farther, sometimes).  If you haven't experienced them, and are thinking of getting away from it all, now may very well be the time to try.

Interested players with desert elf karma are welcome to email desert_elves@armageddon.org for details on the documentation.

Kadius App:

We are now accepting applications for a family member of House Kadius.

This role would be stationed primarily in Tuluk, and is wide open as far as positions go, Agent, Hunter, or Merchant.

Please send your concepts to house_kadius@armageddon.org

Salarr App:

It's time to kick some major ass.

We need someone with big balls, or swollen ovaries, to play a Salarri family member. The potential for travel exists, as always, with the Greater Merchant Houses, but this role will be primarily located in the North. We are accepting applications for Merchants or Agents, but it is likely we will only be taking one player on this, so be sure to be awesome!

Send your applications to:

house_salarr@armageddon.org

Northern Noble App:

Account name / GDB name you most commonly use
House you are applying for
Proposed character name
Proposed character guild/subguild
Proposed character description/biography
Your familiarity with Tuluk on a scale of 1-5 (1 being very familiar, 5 being completely unfamiliar)
Your familiarity with this particular House on a scale of 1-5 (1 being very familiar, 5 being completely unfamiliar)
Your playtimes

Southern Noble App:

You must have few to zero recent negative account notes, be willing to play animatedly and actively, and be familiar with southern culture. Past experience with southern politics is a bonus but not required.

For all applications, please include:
- Your account name,
- Your GDB handle,
- A detailed character concept and background,
- The goals your character would focus on, and
- A brief summary of your past roles which you feel help prepare you for the role.

Noble roles must of course be full human and can be any mundane guild.

Please send your application or any questions you have via email to allanaki_nobles@armageddon.org

Of all of these apps, only 1 requires karma.
There are reasons why certain clans don't advertise.  The Guild is one example - because there is never a 'trust' to the people who play in the Guild.  Characters you apply directly into a position usually don't know the previous history of the clan / jump over current characters in the role.

Are you suggesting non-clan roles?  In my opinion, non-clan roles are isolated roles, and do not bring other players into the fun.

[Gimfalisette]

A lot of those roles are restricted because your average new player isn't ready for them. They're hard to play right, and hard to enjoy.
Learn to play the norm before you try to play the exceptions.

As others have said: Playing a noble, templar, GMH family member, Tan Muark tribal, Tuluki bard, desert elf, magicker, and many other "special" roles may appear much more fun and much easier than they actually are. I really cannot support the idea of throwing newer players into any of these roles "uncontested," for that reason; also, because there are many more-veteran players who have not yet had the chance to play these roles. Special roles have competition, and they -should- have competition, for the good of both individual players and the MUD as a whole.

I played a Tuluki bard on my 2nd PC, within a month of coming to ARM. And within 6 months of coming to ARM, I was playing a Tuluki noble. It's not really that difficult to gain the trust and notice of the imms, and thereby gain access to special roles.

[Kryos]

While these responses are indeed good food for thought, they aren't what matters.   Veterans saying they enjoy the mundane roles is wonderful and all, but they aren't new players.  And really, its the same old song and dance from the same narrow representative of the player base.  What we need to see is the opinions of those we don't see posting in every thread.  Besides, it gets tiresome seeing the same people harping that new people can't role play in Zalanthas, at least for me, because I find it a crock.

New players are  people who've not had a shot at doing something other then mundane and in my best guess, would really like a try at it.  And they would like that try because lets face it, not every player is you, mr. reader.  Not everyone wants to play the things you play, or enjoys the things you enjoy.  Of the starting guilds, there's pandering to achievers, explorers, socializers, and griefers.  But the role selection for each is well, quite narrow.  I'd say that S/G gets the broadest representation.  But the point its, its narrow no matter how you look at it.

Even if we 'broaden our gaming horizons' and test roles we don't normally enjoy, the amount of playability in certain roles can and will terminate for players after a period of time.  When that happens, you veterans suggest the spec app system or role calls, and I say to you: no.

New players aren't very likely to get chosen over the longer-term players who apply for role calls.  Why do I say this?  Because for every role call thats been done since I started playing, I've seen it happen.  The newer players just can't compete, sadly, and just aren't given the chance.  The ladder is being pulled up behind the veterans and that can and does drive newer players away.  So instead of risking these crucial roles, another system needs to be in place.

As for the spec app system, its quite ponderous, it could take months and there's hardly a promise of success. Months is a very long time for a bored/frustrated new player to wait.  Its assumed that its always granted by the way others have spoken here and I know that's hardly the case.  Some new guy who doesn't have karma/low karma apps a karma spot that really appeals to him, I can't imagine that's given the ok too often.  But I'm mostly ignorant here, I have only a few samples that support my case, but support it well they do(as a note, I have *not* ever put in a spec app, going off what I know of my friend's efforts.).

Lets face it, if you get a 20 something or 30 something year old  player into Arm, he or she is going to *know* what type of character they enjoy role playing.  After playing that several times over, they are going to want more and in a perma-death situation that can happen rather quickly.  If the game is to retain these new players, they are going to need to have the shot at doing something that excites them.

[FuSoYa]

You can easily get into mid-leadership roles without any karma, trust me! I made it to First Hunter of Kadius and I had a whole bunch of people working for me, when I only had 0 karma.  I loved it!

Had to roll with Malken on that one.

Play the game Kryos, show you can be a character first and not a guild... it'll come in due time man.  Not sure what else to say but that.  Plus the aggressive way you are putting this forward doesn't make others look highly on the validity of your suggestions/ideas.

Brandon

[mansa]

To me, it sounds like the problem is that you don't have an idea for a role to play.

Or that once your character dies, and you make another, it seems like it's the same character again.

Am I correct as to guessing what the problem is?  Because, I'm still very confused as to what the actual issue is.

[Nyr]

New players aren't very likely to get chosen over the longer-term players who apply for role calls.  Why do I say this?  Because for every role call thats been done since I started playing, I've seen it happen.  The newer players just can't compete, sadly, and just aren't given the chance.  The ladder is being pulled up behind the veterans and that can and does drive newer players away.  So instead of risking these crucial roles, another system needs to be in place.

Over the past year, more than half of the roles I approved (or had a hand in getting approved) in clan-sponsored roles were first-timers.

To clarify:  they had never played such a role before. 
I don't mean "haven't played a Salarri yet but played a Kadian."  I mean "haven't played a GMH family member at all," or "never touched a noble role," or "I've always wanted to be a templar and I app a few times but I haven't ever gotten approved for one."  Sometimes, it's a combination of all of them:  "I have played long-term, dependable roles, but I have never been in a sponsored role before."

[Marauder Moe]

Sorry, I have to say it...

But lets face it, it can already be quite difficult to earn trust with you guys, even for those who might deserve it.  To that end, I ask, have you ever considered a system where new players are offered a chance for lower-tier restricted roles?  The specifics can vary, mind you, but a standard played for X and now gets offered a role either in low-tier karma or normally restricted (tribal clans, etc) type situation could be beneficial in many ways.

Umm, dude, we have a system like that.  It's called karma!

New players aren't very likely to get chosen over the longer-term players who apply for role calls.  Why do I say this?  Because for every role call thats been done since I started playing, I've seen it happen.  The newer players just can't compete, sadly, and just aren't given the chance.  The ladder is being pulled up behind the veterans and that can and does drive newer players away.  So instead of risking these crucial roles, another system needs to be in place.

You seem to be forgetting a crucial (but obvious, to me at least) fact: new players become veteran players!  It happens all the time.  In fact, believe it or not, every single veteran player of this game was once a new player.

[AmandaGreathouse]

<Halcyon> Is karma serving as intended, by which I mean, are trusted
  players needing to be demoted for failures, and, are the populations of rare
  roles being over or under limited by the settings?

<Sanvean> We rarely see trusted players needing to be demoted for
  failure, but it does happen sometimes. The populations of rare roles are
  definitely being limited, but I am not aware of complaints that they are
  overlimited

<Sanvean> If anything, though, I'd like to see us being a bit more
  liberal, there are always people being overlooked, in my opinion, by the
  very nature of the system. (done)

<Halcyon> Do you think that awarding more karma, since the spec app
  system in more limited now, might help retention?  (done)

<FantasyWriter> Any decisions or strong leanings on how the "karma"
  system for 2.arm will work when it goes up?

<Sanvean> Well, not much definitive. One thing I have proposed is that
  there be no karma system at first, in order to see how it
  goes without one, but it remains to be seen whether or not we'll do that.
  (done)

I wouldn't mind seeing it. In fact, I'm probably one of those that prefers the 'other' roles more than any of the normally available ones.

[Malken]

New players aren't very likely to get chosen over the longer-term players who apply for role calls.  Why do I say this?  Because for every role call thats been done since I started playing, I've seen it happen.  The newer players just can't compete, sadly, and just aren't given the chance.  The ladder is being pulled up behind the veterans and that can and does drive newer players away.  So instead of risking these crucial roles, another system needs to be in place.

You are quite wrong about that, some 'veteran' players can't even read the damn docs they are given and then totally mess up their roles, those players are probably not going to get picked again for quite some time.

I know so many so-called 'veterans' that can't be trusted with GMH or Nobility roles and I bet a Staffer would rather take a chance on a new player than those players, trust me.

Hrm, yah, what Nyr says.. I think Staff are more than happy to give you a chance until you mess up than the other way around.

And no, Kyros, you are wrong again, I'm a 'veteran', I guess, and I love playing magickers, and I understand why people want to play them as well, trust me, I cheer for the new players who want to be able to play them as well, actually,
unless it's a tribal, I probably never want to play mundane roles again, but you know what? It took me FIFTEEN years to be able to play the roles I'm playing lately, I don't think it's asking too much for the new players to play a few months
before they get the same chance, as well.

What do you want? Do you want new players to be able to play magickers right away? Again, I ask you, do you know what that would do to the mud? Maybe you know some guy who could be trusted right from the start, I believe that, but
I also know a dozen more players who couldn't be trusted with a simple human assassins yet they are allowed to play one right from the start but can't prove to the Staff that they can be trusted with higher karma classes even after years
of playing.

We can't divide magickers in half, we can't say, well, new players and 0 karma players should be allowed to play a Rukkian, but only with half of their spells, until they have acquired enough karma, then we'll give them the other half afterward..

I don't think any of us understands what you want, though, and we're really trying.. Do you think that new players should be able to play sorcerers and mindbenders? Hell no.. If the Staff think they should be able to, and your friend special app
one, then he will be accepted. If he's the greatest roleplayer ever and shine of trust, then I'm sure it will only take him just a few months to get all the karma he needs to be a sorcerer as much as he wants to, as well.. Otherwise, too many
can't be trusted vs those who should be.

Again, I bet that special apps will go much faster now that people only have three apps a year.. And again, I bet the Staff would be more than happy to give anyone a chance at the roles they advertise for, as long as your player notes are decent
enough. If they aren't, then can you really blame them, and then can't you agree that allowing someone with recent bad notes to play a powerful class isn't a very good idea?

Oh, and I just saw AmandaGreathouse's post, trust me, a karma-less Arm 2 is going to last... A week, at most

[SMuz]

I like karma, even when I have none. Only beef I have about it is not being able to play a mul or psionicist.

Yes, do special app. I know some of you may have only specific roles in mind.. but play something else to get a feel of the game before spec-apping. And the staff would have to deem your spec app logical - if it's being rejected, chances are that they don't believe you can handle it or it's too powerful (e.g. warrior with sneak).

Sorry, Kryos, but you can't simply play any role that you want. There's more to the game than simply enjoying roles.. if you want to grind up your karma, try playing a character with multiple personality flaws, and stick to those flaws, especially if they put your character at a disadvantage. I won't guarantee it'll work, but it may help, and it'll help you control your temptation to twink, which should prepare you for a higher karma class/race anyway.

[Gunnerblaster]

Hang on, a second.

Are you saying that new players to ARM be given leadership roles? What are you? Retarded? If they can barely understand the syntax, what makes you think they would have the ability to make good, interactive roleplayer leaders?

It takes alot of "something" to play a leadership role. That "something" comes through an OOC understanding of the game as you start really playing it.

I have seen cases where a new player is already speciall apping a 1 karma character on their 4th go - And I am all for it, but I don't think you should let that retard who idles in the Gaj or desert be a future leader if he does not even know how to log out.