A Critique

[a strange shadow]

Some points are valid, some points not so much. I am going to be blunt however.

Paying attention to OOC gossip will ruin the game for anyone, especially since 99.999% of it is negative bullshit. There is a reason hardly anybody has contact with me - because I have no desire to get involved in the OOC popularity contest that absolutely does exist outside the game. It is possible to survive and thrive without paying attention to it. Yes, sometimes it sucks when you're dealing with things IC that seem to be a result of an OOC grudge, but them's the breaks.

During a situation IC which you didn't like you started complaining through OOC and turned what could have been a decent scene into one of the most OOCly painful and awkward situations I've RPd out  - I had been unaware of certain aspects and you were unaware of certain others, but I could not and would not bend IC events for someone's OOC temper-tantrum. Sorry.

I have enjoyed playing with your characters in the past, so I know you are capable of fun and engaging RP. Pay less attention to the game behind the game and keep IC things IC, and I guarantee you will start enjoying yourself again.

You need to seriously evaluate how you approach and view the game before you keep pointing out flaws you perceive in it.

[Doppelganger]

Well, Bebop did not say anything new, but should we really blame her for repeating things over and over, if problems still remain.

Clan shifting idea was supposed to expand staff's knowledge of the world beyond the clans they are familiar with as players. I have no reason to think that it works, or at least it did not work always and did not work with everyone. I see flaws in idea itself, because documentation is nothing until you actually try to play up to it with your character, impression that you would play the role better is often an illusion until you actually try to pull it. If, one reason or another, staffer had no interest in playing clan, they would forever suck at managing it, IMO.

It is not news that staff and players come and go, but the current pace of recycling staff members is fairly recent concept. So, the problem of adapting to new clan bosses is not new problem, it just became more widespread.
...
I am going to skip IC-spreading and fingerpointing phases and will jump to a wishing part. It would be cool, guys, if after taking new appointment you would give some time for players to adapt to your style. Writing posts like "I see things that way..." on the clan board would be a good start. If documentation is outdated, replace it first, before writing notes to accounts for following it. If you feel that situation is out of control, use the approach utilized by some female staffers, post a warning like "I have noticed...do not do it". That's fairly decent approach if your aim is to right the wrong, not to post as many negative comments as possible. Keep in mind that sometimes things you see and do not like are blessed or at least accepted by former staff, so bluntly tossing your authority around might not work the way you want it to. If you start enforcing your policy by jumping on players one by one, your stupid approach itself diminishes whatever bright ideas you may have in mind.

Many of staff members are cool about publicity and I see alot of improvement in that area. Let's take Morgenes as example. Short announcement of changes and a thread for discussion are not much of a brainer, but it works. I found many of his changes, namely to sneaky activities, to be repulsive at first glance. But when the door is not closed, when changes are not carved in stone I had all time in the world to explore them thorougly, to recognise new opportunities, to find some swesomeness in idea. Open discussion often makes critique unnecessary. Is not it simple, is not it cool?

On a side note, I am sure that if announcement and fair discussion could have taken place years ago with certain changes to combat, certain player would not be as obsessed with "nerfed defense" as he is now.

What Bebop said about new generations of staff not remembering what things are made for, is not new and it's obvious and it is basically admitted, hense the staff wiki. What happens to concept, when there is no one willing to support it, is known, suffice to look at city-elves. There are many rotten corpses through the world which staff can't find use for, other than destroying them in the course of IC events. It sucks when half of the world are ruins on a dead background, while staff continues to spawn pokemons with no root and history whatsoever to entertain masses. There is nothing that can be done to recover what is lost, but it is still worth a critique, IMO, so the problem won't repeat itself.

On a slightly related note, there is a post from LoD there in discussion about Villians
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,34282.25.html

If all of us agree that "creating fun for other players" is not an excuse for new player to screw his character's development and make one-dimensional plots that can be described as simply as "Charge!", than it should not be excuse for anyone, staff included.

[staggerlee]

I don't think players or IMMs should so much concern themselves with if the person criticizing is good at doing so constructively so much as if their criticism has validity instead of ultimately punishing that person if you don't agree or if they come off in a way you don't like.

I think that this is entirely untrue. You must be able to make your comments critical, objective and clear, particularly if you're hoping for changes. Presentation and clarity in your comments is absolutely essential. Ideas alone are not enough, you also have to make them heard, and convince someone to address them in a positive manner.

There's been a lot of posts already on how to get heard, but I've got a couple recommendations:

-Be concise.
-Be clear.
-Consider the tone you're using.
-Proofread/edit.
-Consider feedback.

Other than that, I mostly agree with StangeShadow, the biggest thing that we as players can do is adjust our own attitudes. You can't force the game to stay the same, players and staff to remain, or for any of it to subscribe to your own expectations.  People will read the documentation differently, disagreements will happen. We can strive for greater communication, but if you approach things with the wrong attitude the game will never be anything but frustrating.

Also, if you have, as you say, been playing for over four years... maybe it's just time to step back for a bit, think about your relationship with the game and what you want for the future. That's a very, very long time to play a game.

[Qzzrbl]

If I had a nickle for how many times I've been told how much someone misses a retired Staff member (most notably Tlaloc with the Byn) I'd have a fuck load of nickles.

I agree that changes with staff are affecting the playerbase in a big way, in that many established, veteran players simply don't like some of the changes being made and leaving.

I remember as a new player starting this game, I read in the docs that magickers are supposed to be feared, distrusted, sometimes even hated, etc., etc., so I tried that.

It didn't blow over so well.

I was always under the impression that southerners and northerners aren't really supposed to like eachother, yet I see them palling around all the time.

Where are all the blunt, rough and tumble southerner Gaj-goers who pick fights with elves and gemmers to pass time?

How come I've got notherners I've never met buying my 'Rinthi shit-kicker drinks in the Sanctuary?

I dunno, hearing what everyone told me about the game before playing it, and actually playing it are starting to seem a little contradictory.

Maybe it's just me.

-shrug-

[Synthesis]

If I had a nickle for how many times I've been told how much someone misses a retired Staff member (most notably Tlaloc with the Byn) I'd have a fuck load of nickles.

I agree that changes with staff are affecting the playerbase in a big way, in that many established, veteran players simply don't like some of the changes being made and leaving.

I remember as a new player starting this game, I read in the docs that magickers are supposed to be feared, distrusted, sometimes even hated, etc., etc., so I tried that.

It didn't blow over so well.

I was always under the impression that southerners and northerners aren't really supposed to like eachother, yet I see them palling around all the time.

Where are all the blunt, rough and tumble southerner Gaj-goers who pick fights with elves and gemmers to pass time?

How come I've got notherners I've never met buying my 'Rinthi shit-kicker drinks in the Sanctuary?

I dunno, hearing what everyone told me about the game before playing it, and actually playing it are starting to seem a little contradictory.

Maybe it's just me.

-shrug-

Dude, it's because the easiest way to kill someone nowadays is to fake-befriend them and sweet-talk them into going into an apartment with you.  If you start out talking shit, that pretty much blows your chances of ever getting an easy PK.   

[RogueGunslinger]

Where are all the blunt, rough and tumble southerner Gaj-goers who pick fights with elves and gemmers to pass time?
-shrug-

Sorry, it's been a while since I made a character in 'nak.

[UnderSeven]

It seems to me a lot of the people who don't like rotational staff are also the people who were long time players.  I think to me that means people are remembering the 'good old days' for all the wrong reason.  So maybe you were in X clan and it was awesome with Y staffer. Though that's kind of the reason that such a system probably got put into place in the first place.  If you took this in the worst possible light maybe Y staffer felt attached to the clan and treated it like a pet, you enjoyed your experience because you guys got all sorts of favors and treats from your sponsoring staff.  Or in the best possible light, maybe you just happened to have the staffer who had enough time to dedicate every second to the clan.  That would be exactly the problem with static clan staffing, while one clan might of been awesome, others suffered and clans received advantages and disadvantages based entirely on the ooc fact of whom their staff happened to be, rather than ic reasons.  I assure you some of us real old time players can talk about some of the horrors of static staffing. 

So does rotational staffing have some flaws? Sure, every system has it's pros and cons, but taken into perspective, this system is better than the good old days.  At least it's more balanced.

[brytta.leofa]

I remember as a new player starting this game, I read in the docs that magickers are supposed to be feared, distrusted, sometimes even hated, etc. ... that southerners and northerners aren't really supposed to like each other ... southerner Gaj-goers who pick fights with elves and gemmers to pass time...

All these things happen, just with a little more sophistication than some folks may want.  It's just as jarring when people caricature these behaviors as when they bury them, and potentially more destructive to the Story.

[RogueGunslinger]

I remember as a new player starting this game, I read in the docs that magickers are supposed to be feared, distrusted, sometimes even hated, etc. ... that southerners and northerners aren't really supposed to like each other ... southerner Gaj-goers who pick fights with elves and gemmers to pass time...

It's just as jarring when people caricature these behaviors as when they bury them, and potentially more destructive to the Story.

I disagree with this entirely. I'd rather see overreaction that cater to the documentation, than the opposite. When all people see is the mage-loving, and not the 'bring said mage back to apartment to kill them' part of the story, it just further promotes said reactions.


Edited to add: Mage loving just one example, of course.

[Qzzrbl]

If I had a nickle for how many times I've been told how much someone misses a retired Staff member (most notably Tlaloc with the Byn) I'd have a fuck load of nickles.

I agree that changes with staff are affecting the playerbase in a big way, in that many established, veteran players simply don't like some of the changes being made and leaving.

I remember as a new player starting this game, I read in the docs that magickers are supposed to be feared, distrusted, sometimes even hated, etc., etc., so I tried that.

It didn't blow over so well.

I was always under the impression that southerners and northerners aren't really supposed to like eachother, yet I see them palling around all the time.

Where are all the blunt, rough and tumble southerner Gaj-goers who pick fights with elves and gemmers to pass time?

How come I've got notherners I've never met buying my 'Rinthi shit-kicker drinks in the Sanctuary?

I dunno, hearing what everyone told me about the game before playing it, and actually playing it are starting to seem a little contradictory.

Maybe it's just me.

-shrug-

Dude, it's because the easiest way to kill someone nowadays is to fake-befriend them and sweet-talk them into going into an apartment with you.  If you start out talking shit, that pretty much blows your chances of ever getting an easy PK.   

I know.

>~<

I thought only Tuluk was supposed to be so subtle?

It's just annoying when every fucking person in the game (including brutish Bynners who barely have a grip on basic mathematical addition) who isn't genuine, is a mastermind double-timer who knows how to flawlessly read body language and eye movements to detect motives.

Seriously, roll up some blunt, "I'll kick your ass!" characters!

They're fun, I swear.

[Lou]

I disagree with this entirely. I'd rather see overreaction that cater to the documentation, than the opposite. When all people see is the mage-loving, and not the 'bring said mage back to apartment to kill them' part of the story, it just further promotes said reactions.

Edited to add: Mage loving just one example, of course.

I'm sorry to be abetting the thread-drift, but as a new player, my conclusion is: screw the docs, I'm following the players. (Other than that, I'm way too new to comment intelligently, and will just say that I've been thrilled by the other players' willingness to enter into any RP I throw at them, and that my clanless, skill-free PC has more trouble avoiding plots than getting involved in them. Partly this is perhaps because I lucked into an RP-friendly role, but at this point, for this newbie, I could care less about the staff. It's the players who keep me coming back.)

[RogueGunslinger]

  Do you see my point, Brytta? It's causing new players like Lou to completely disregard the documents, which is most definitely a bad thing.


Lou. Don't disregard the docs. Seriously, they have made the game what it is, and slipping away from that is exactly what Bebop was talking about. It's changing it for the worse, trust me.

[Qzzrbl]

Do you see my point, Brytta? It's causing new players like Lou to completely disregard the documents, which is most definitely a bad thing.


Lou. Don't disregard the docs. Seriously, they have made the game what it is, and slipping away from that is exactly what Bebop was talking about. It's changing it for the worse, trust me.

[LoD]

As a player of 18+ years, here are my comments pertaining to the points made by the OP:

In the time I've been playing while the staff correspondences here are significantly better than some other online gaming communities I find there is still a significant lack of professionalism.  E-mails are not returned on time.  Roles are offered and players are not responded to for weeks or months.  IMMs can be short, sarcastic and even cruel in communication on the GDB and e-mail - definitely they are bias.

My perception has been that some players today have a horrible sense of entitlement when it comes to the roles that they choose/want to play.  Special applications may well be one of the worst culprits for breeding many of the issues you describe above, including the feelings of frustration when players' apps are rejected or not answered in a timely manner.  If you whipper-snappers can believe it, we old timers were actually forced to come up with character concepts that didn't require any special skills, special setup, special languages, special starting locations, special bank accounts, or special clothes/items.

Constructive criticism regarding how the Staff communicates with the Players is always valuable, however, it's important to understand that many times that biased, curt, or delayed reply is coming off the heels of a Staff member that's just dealt with their 3rd twink of the hour, answered their 20th wish, and had their latest special app clan leader wander into the woods to die, or suddenly decide to store.  Your request may be completely appropriate, polite, and timely -- but even the cleanest of shirts can seem like trash when it gets lumped in with the garbage.

Dealing with the lowest common denominator forces one to sweep with broad strokes -- and that doesn't always make for careful house cleaning.  It's not an excuse, it's just a reality.  And one of the most useful tools that I've ever learned about being happy playing Armageddon is to manage your expectations.

Though many of the immortals have come in and done an amazing job I have a very huge concern about seniority.  There is a real lack of seniority right now.  Many IMMs that were around when I first started playing seem to have fallen away.  New IMMs are being introduced more and more, sometimes when I am in a clan I get a response from an IMM that I had never heard of, is not listed as an IMM for my clan and an IMM I never heard announced.  This game has a foundation.  The past has been successful.  The previous IMMs helped make this game what it is.  Suddenly it seems the entire game is being flushed out for a new one.  A new one that had no guarantee to be as successful with new IMMs that did not initially help this game become what it was.

Your past is barely even my present.  That statement isn't to declare your point invalid, but to point out that perspective has a lot to do with how you interpret your surroundings.  The game has come a long way from where it began, and I would be hard pressed to hand any one staff member with a trophy engraved with, "Most Responsible for Armageddon's Success".  It has, and always will be, a collaboration that remembers the past while planning for the future.  There are tens of Imms you never even had a chance to know that have come and gone long before the ones you miss even started their position.

We've also been in a state of flux for the last 1.5 years or so, somewhere between the current game and its new incarnation.  What I hear most in the tone of your critique is fear of the unknown, and that's a very difficult topic to effectively debate.  It's understandable, but it's not always rational or logical.  That makes it a very touchy subject for all parties involved.  It forces us to become hyper-critical of people and subjects that would otherwise have been ignored, because the only thing that we can cling to against the unknown is faith.

Faith that the current Staff will remember the past while planning the future.  Faith that current Players will honor the past while accepting the future.  And questions of faith can be consuming.

Armageddon is an OOC game.  One may not notice it at first in the early stages of "newbdom."  But one quickly begins to understand that one must participate in an OOC game along with the IC one.

This is completely untrue, as a rule.  You do not need to participate in the OOC game in order to succeed or to achieve something of merit within the framework of the game.  That doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, but to make a blanket statement like this smacks of rejection and dissatisfaction in one's personal position rather than an objective critique of the system.

As long as we have, or make, friends -- there will be cliques.  That's all they are.  They are collections of people who feel a familiar and comfortable bond with other humans because of shared experiences, shared desires, and shared opinions.  These groups provide advantages and disadvantages. 

They serve to strengthen the community and provide the basis for many friendships and even relationships that blossom from intimate exposure to one another.  They also serve to undermine and cheapen the experience in-game, spoiling the secrets, unraveling the mysteries, and encouraging biased or unnatural behavior based on OOC input/information.

There is an extremely fine line between maintaining game-related friendships and exploiting game-related networks.  It's quite possible for one to drift into the other without even noticing.  However, the existence of these OOC friendships, relationships, and networks does not mean that they are necessary, or even integral, to achieving goals in-game.

Ultimately, you are responsible for the fun you take away from the game.  You.  Not your friends, not your clan mantes, not the staff members, but you.  I have made several changes to my expectations and behavior in order to glean from the game the elements that I most enjoy.  Sometimes these changes have come about naturally, while other times they have been influenced by events inside and outside of the game.

We're each responsible for our own enjoyment of the game and have to be realistic when managing our expectations.  You have to be honest and careful with yourself; it's more difficult than it sounds.  Some people will be successful and play here for many years.  Some people will end up leaving the game after their first major disagreement or disappointment.

Which you will be is largely up to...you.

-LoD

[Tallulah]

It's kind of life.  You can't expect things to never change.  Did you stop to think that if Armageddon never changed, that you might just get bored and jaded, and leave the game with the complaint that you've been everywhere and done everything, and need something new?

[Qzzrbl]

It's kind of life.  You can't expect things to never change.  Did you stop to think that if Armageddon never changed, that you might just get bored and jaded, and leave the game with the complaint that you've been everywhere and done everything, and need something new?

I'd rather it grow stagnant than change into something completely different from what drew me to the game in the first place.

Just throw in a little more grit and harshness, and I'm sure alot of people will be happy.

[Synthesis]

Another thing about grit and harshness....

Being "gritty" and "harsh" tends to make people not like you, which in turn gets you killed (one way or another).

There are very few roles where you have a reasonable chance to survive to become a long-lived, complex, well-developed character, while being gritty and harsh the entire time.  Perhaps the Byn is really the only good example (and even then, the Byn has a way of getting even the most experienced bad-ass warriors killed).

Note:  I'm not saying it's impossible to survive a long time while being a bastard...I'm saying that it's statistically highly unlikely, and that therefore most people probably tend to play the safe hand:  "live and let live...until the templars say otherwise."

[Qzzrbl]

Another thing about grit and harshness....

Being "gritty" and "harsh" tends to make people not like you, which in turn gets you killed (one way or another).

There are very few roles where you have a reasonable chance to survive to become a long-lived, complex, well-developed character, while being gritty and harsh the entire time.  Perhaps the Byn is really the only good example (and even then, the Byn has a way of getting even the most experienced bad-ass warriors killed).

Note:  I'm not saying it's impossible to survive a long time while being a bastard...I'm saying that it's statistically highly unlikely, and that therefore most people probably tend to play the safe hand:  "live and let live...until the templars say otherwise."

Before playing, I was always told that I would probably just get away with a beating if I started a character and summarily started being an asshole to everyone.

Now, it seems though, everyone takes it upon themselves to defend their honor to the death, something that usually drove me away from every other MUD I've played.

[Synthesis]

Ha, you got told wrong.

This has always been a PK first, ask questions later type of game, once the first cross words have been spoken.

[IntuitiveApathy]

Armageddon is an OOC Game - Politics and Elitism.

This is my final point and my largest.  Armageddon is an OOC game.  One may not notice it at first in the early stages of "newbdom."  But one quickly begins to understand that one must participate in an OOC game along with the IC one.  Is it worth it?  It might be - until you lose the OOC side and it begins to effect the IC.

The entire karma system is currently set up in a way that players are punished if their OOC communication is not up to par.  Even so much that it stifles progress in the game because players can not offer up due criticism for fear of being nerfed on special application or leadership roles.  This is a very real problem.  It's an obvious problem.  And it's something that is disgusted on the various OOC channels of communication every single day.

I just wanted to address this portion of your post because I have strong feelings about the OOC side of the game.

I, for all intents and purposes, am a 'purist' when it comes to this aspect of the game.  I really dislike any OOC comnunication between players that has anything to do with the game.  I especially dislike hearing about things personally.  The reason is I want to experience the game first-hand and have those experiences be completely novel.  This way, they have their full impact and I can glean the highest enjoyment I can out of them.  It's really the same reason why I, or anyone else, doesn't want to hear about what happened in that movie, or that novel.  It ruins the element of surprise when you know what to expect and no longer feels like you're experiencing the present, ever-moving timeline of the game world.  But even when the OOC communcation isn't flowing to me and is going between other players, I really feel that those players are doing a disservice to others.  Anyone that has dealings with said players will come away with an experience that isn't necessarily the same product that would have been if they were playing as those who had no outside communication.  This resulting loss of purity in the player environment also tempts other players to do the same for various reasons - perhaps notably to 'level the playing field' to gain whatever real or perceived advantages that comes with that sort of meta gaming.

That said, there are of course many innocent OOC interactions between players that goes on all the time and these are certainly healthy for the game and it's supporting community.  Still, I do my best to stay out of it as you never know when someone, even if totally unintentionally, makes a slip.  Even the smallest tidbit of information can ruin something huge.

All of the above goes for staff as well.  For the most part I rarely communicate with staff save for if they've asked for a submission/report or what have you - and that is quite rare.

So for the most part, I have avoided the whole 'OOC game' during my years of play here.

Now to the point of my post - despite not being involved at all with this aspect of the game, I have been awarded karma on multiple occasions over the years.  The karma awards have been spotty and strange - going by the karma page on the website, I am missing a couple of intermediary points on the scale for no reason.  You might guess this is because I special apped some karma class/races and were subsequently awarded the karma to play them, but that's not the case.  I've actually never played any karma-level characters save for a brief d-elf or two up until very recently.  The point is, I've been slowly accumulating this karma over the years.

I'm not trying to toot my own horn here, but I just wanted to let you and everyone else know that the situation isn't quite as dire as you've painted it in your post.  I have not requested feedback or put up the review flag before.  I've not had any special apps approved and played (though I did submit one last year that was rejected because of quota reasons at the time).  Again, I rarely communicate with staff.  I have mostly played in clans, so perhaps that does give my characters some consistent in-game exposure to staff, but I've only ever played two PC's in leadership positions.  And of course, I've never been involved in any player/staff cliques or anything of the like.   It could be that both you and I are exceptions on opposite ends of the scale, but I find that a little doubtful.  Would I be rejected out of hand for a specific leadership/special app position because I don't talk to staff or run in player cliques?  I don't know, but I'd like to believe that wouldn't be the case.  I did request my account notes last year when I took a break from the game just for curiosity's sake and I didn't see any notes on there that had anything to do with communication/OOC relationships.

So here's my two cents.  It's been my personal experience over the years that one doesn't have to play the 'OOC game' to 'get ahead' in Armageddon.  As far as I can tell, I've never been expected to, and I can tell you, I never will.

[Qzzrbl]

Ha, you got told wrong.

*sigh*

I guess so.

[Clearsighted]

I can empathize a bit because I had a hideous experience with someone and their friend's OOC reaction to being killed ICly. And that ruined things for me for a little while.

[Delstro]

Ha, you got told wrong.

This has always been a PK first, ask questions later type of game, once the first cross words have been spoken.

This above comment is why I do not play anymore.


I agree with Bebop in that there is an OOC game you must play to get ahead IC.
If you are labeled a Thief, IG, you are black balled all together. Everyone just seems to ignore you, hoping you will go away.
If you are an asshole and are "mean" to the other characters, you get killed. Quickly.
If you are seen as a "twinker," you are black balled and/or killed.


In all my years of plain Janes and Joe Schmoes, I have noticed one thing. If you aren't a sponsored role, players are a kill now, RP later type. People will easily destroy your PC in the most fitting way that destroys your character concept, it is really frustrating. If you are a thief/thug and you want to eventually mug/steal from a PC, it is almost impossible. You are forced to play characters that know everything about their craft. The first time you fuck up and get caught, your character concept is dead. If you are in a sponsored role, people will go out of their way to RP positively with you, and underreact when they should kill you. It drives me crazy. I can't send out enough character complaints when that shit happens. That is why I don't play anymore.

[Jingo]

This has always been a PK first, ask questions later type of game, once the first cross words have been spoken.

This hasn't been my overall expierience. It happens, but it always comes out contrived. I suspect usually commited by new players or players more concerned about winning rather than roleplaying. It's also the reason I don't play in the 'rinth.

For the record, I've had plenty of conflict that did not include immediate pkilling. It's great. I love extended conflict. I think the game has come a long way in facilitating it.

Minus the lure-into-apartment-lock-door-and-start-hacking incidents that apparantly still happen. Seriously people. You can do better.

[staggerlee]

I've had good experiences with the game, that don't seem to fit what everyone is complaining about here.
I have my own concerns and frustrations, but these aren't them. We make our own hell.