Apartments and safety

[Good Gortok]

For the longest time I have been unable to hold an apartment IG. When I rent one, it invariably takes no more than three RL days (normally less than one) before it gets robbed. This has happened perhaps a dozen or two times in a row, from tenements to the most expensive building in the city, and it's starting to really tick me off. Most recently my character spent many weeks' worth of coin to rent an apartment, I go to bed, and when I wake up everything of any coded value is gone. For the past year or so, I don't remember having any apartment for a RL week straight without seeing it robbed in one way or another. Has anyone had better luck?

It's not that I want an impenetrable bastion of safety and privacy, this is Zalanthas after all a good deal of uncertainty is expected. Still, I feel that this really limits character development in certain ways, and likely has an influence on how much people are willing to buy from other players and merchant houses as well. It's just a portion of the game that is rendered more or less unplayable for me.

I think the problem stems from four things:

1) The lockpick skill is so simple and without any real risk. It can be a little troublesome to first find out where to acquire picks, and they're somewhat expensive as well, but beyond that there's no real challenge. Picking a door doesn't invoke the crime code, take any amount of time, alert the landlord, leaves no trace other than the door being unlocked, and the majority of the game's apartment doors take little skill to succesfully bypass this way.

2) Magickers of various types have access to some apartments by means of spells, and there's generally no stopping them from helping themselves to what they can access.

3) Anyone with the sneak and hide skills can rent an apartment, leave without losing the key, wait for it to run out and then go back a while later to empty it at their leisure. They can keep doing this for as long as they like. Some players have been known to specifically collect apartment keys for this purpose.

4) Just about everything can be sold because NPC merchants care little about the quality, condition and origin of an item as long as it falls into the category of items they're coded to deal in. Burglars and opportunitists thus tend to take everything they recognize as being sellable.


edited title for amgiuity

[brytta.leofa]

Maybe we need more observant apartment minders?

[Marauder Moe]

Completely agreed.  Apartments are worthless as storage.  Only good for mudsex and assassinating people (when you're done having mudsex with them).

I've said before that burglary, as a profession, is broken and perhaps the lockpick skill should be removed.

I can imagine a few systems to make it more balanced, they require more intelligent NPC behavior than we generally see in Arm 1.0.

[roughneck]

I think it'd be cool to be able to rent a guard at a lot of the apartments, a guy who stands just inside the door with a sword and a decent scan skill.

It'd be something at least.  Wouldn't do much, I guess, to anyone with maxxed stealth skills and given the ease of notching sneak and hide there's no shortage of people with ghost-like abilities in this area.  It would at least stop the robbing of heavy items that make you fail hide, or stop being hidden.

Renting a guard could even be something that Borsail or some rich merchant did - renting out guard slaves.

[Qzzrbl]

Or! We could expand on burglary entirely, and introduce other methods of locking doors other than brittle wooden locks with little wooden springs.

I don't see why picking a lock doesn't invoke crim-code.... It should. I've always thought it did.

[Riev]

Renting a guard could even be something that Borsail or some rich merchant did - renting out guard slaves.

I actually support this idea. Perhaps at least on the higher rent apartments, you can pay an extra, say, 100 'sid a month or something, to have a vNPC or regular NPC guard stand by your door. I don't see it going into the current code any time soon, but I think it would be a nice idea.

Perhaps if they see someone trying to pick the door, they cry thief and you get crimmed... maybe make it a bit more difficult for thieves, or at least make them THINK before picking every door in an apartment building (Which, I would think, SOME vNPC would notice it at some point and at least tell the landlord. Perhaps next time you get your key, they say that "the man with shifty eyes was seen in and out of your apartment recently. If you would like to add them to your list, please let me know."

[Archbaron]

I think that the hallways of large apartments should be busy enough with vNPCS to have crimflags that way only the most talented burglars can get in (which excludes like 90% of the problem). I mean, it's unrealistic to crouch in front of a door and pick it for an IG 20-30 minutes and not expect anyone to come by, especially in the hallway closest to the foyer.

I also think that the guard man should walk up and down the halls every IG day to lock all the doors. What I've noticed is that although a burglar will break in and steal things, it's your neighbors who rip it bone dry.

Just some thoughts.

[Qzzrbl]

I think that the hallways of large apartments should be busy enough with vNPCS to have crimflags that way only the most talented burglars can get in (which excludes like 90% of the problem). I mean, it's unrealistic to crouch in front of a door and pick it for an IG 20-30 minutes and not expect anyone to come by, especially in the hallway closest to the foyer.

I also think that the guard man should walk up and down the halls every IG day to lock all the doors. What I've noticed is that although a burglar will break in and steal things, it's your neighbors who rip it bone dry.

Just some thoughts.

Eh, we want to make burglary harder for them, yes.... But not nerf them entirely.

But then again, as it was said, it's not that hard to notch up sneak and hide.

[Gunnerblaster]

I also think that the guard man should walk up and down the halls every IG day to lock all the doors. What I've noticed is that although a burglar will break in and steal things, it's your neighbors who rip it bone dry.

QFT and it's an awesome idea. I would like that. Alot.

I think this was in another discussion before but it's really unrealistic to have someone break into your house and practically carry off everything - bed included. You'd think a burgular would just take a quick inventory - Steal what he Needs, first (Food, water, coin) then steal his Wants if he has enough room. Not steal all three chests and the bin, the bed and the coatrack.

I mean. What the hell? Learn how to roleplay.

[UnderSeven]

Thee magickers are the real problem here if you ask me.

[Good Gortok]

Thee magickers are the real problem here if you ask me.

I'm inclined to agree, considering that the door has often remained locked despite the theft, though it's hard to say for certain since you're normally not there to witness it. There was a recent code change to allow burglars to relock a lock, but it happened a lot before that as well, and besides I don't think most regular burglars bother with that considering the time, trouble and risk of breaking picks.

[Vanth]

Maybe we need more observant apartment minders?

They all scan, and are 'observant' in direct proportion to the expense level of the building.  In some cases they have maxed scan, but in no case are they gimpy scanners.  I don't see how we can make them more observant.

[Vanth]

3) Anyone with the sneak and hide skills can rent an apartment, leave without losing the key, wait for it to run out and then go back a while later to empty it at their leisure. They can keep doing this for as long as they like. Some players have been known to specifically collect apartment keys for this purpose.

I am working on a solution to this problem that does not involve making tons of new key objects.

[Dar]

Burglars in my opinion are very sad. Compared to other guilds, the 'only' thing they're good at is .. picking doors. The rest is either subpar, or not really even close to usefulness compared to the skills of other mundane guilds. If burglars were something 'more' then a gimped assassin, if burglars could show their mastery in other ways then robbing a whole 'city' clean. I'm sure there'd be less emphasis on burglarizing from that guild.

[Synthesis]

Burglars in my opinion are very sad. Compared to other guilds, the 'only' thing they're good at is .. picking doors. The rest is either subpar, or not really even close to usefulness compared to the skills of other mundane guilds. If burglars were something 'more' then a gimped assassin, if burglars could show their mastery in other ways then robbing a whole 'city' clean. I'm sure there'd be less emphasis on burglarizing from that guild.

QFT.  Just get rid of burglars.  Assassins and pickpockets are the only two rogue classes we need.  Burglary as a profession is ridiculous.

[Archbaron]

Burglars in my opinion are very sad. Compared to other guilds, the 'only' thing they're good at is .. picking doors. The rest is either subpar, or not really even close to usefulness compared to the skills of other mundane guilds. If burglars were something 'more' then a gimped assassin, if burglars could show their mastery in other ways then robbing a whole 'city' clean. I'm sure there'd be less emphasis on burglarizing from that guild.

As someone who plays the burglar class regularly (the class, mind you, not the profession) I can attest that it is actually a useful guild. They're moderate thieves with the ability to peak, unlike even the thief subguild, and can hold up combat rather well against assassins and rangers (and with a bit of training, even warriors). They also make great spies because they're coupled with the listen skill, unlike assassins. You just have to be creative with them. Use your skills to infiltrate or lurk around or steal or do something that strikes people as original. The burglar guild has a unique set of skills that fit my playing style, and probably the playing styles of others.

Bottom line, getting rid of burglars isn't going to stop all apartment theft.

[Dar]

Burglars in my opinion are very sad. Compared to other guilds, the 'only' thing they're good at is .. picking doors. The rest is either subpar, or not really even close to usefulness compared to the skills of other mundane guilds. If burglars were something 'more' then a gimped assassin, if burglars could show their mastery in other ways then robbing a whole 'city' clean. I'm sure there'd be less emphasis on burglarizing from that guild.

As someone who plays the burglar class regularly (the class, mind you, not the profession) I can attest that it is actually a useful guild. They're moderate thieves with the ability to peak, unlike even the thief subguild, and can hold up combat rather well against assassins and rangers (and with a bit of training, even warriors). They also make great spies because they're coupled with the listen skill, unlike assassins. You just have to be creative with them. Use your skills to infiltrate or lurk around or steal or do something that strikes people as original. The burglar guild has a unique set of skills that fit my playing style, and probably the playing styles of others.

Bottom line, getting rid of burglars isn't going to stop all apartment theft.

Burglars only have one skill that Assassins dont, and it's not listen.

[Synthesis]

Burglars in my opinion are very sad. Compared to other guilds, the 'only' thing they're good at is .. picking doors. The rest is either subpar, or not really even close to usefulness compared to the skills of other mundane guilds. If burglars were something 'more' then a gimped assassin, if burglars could show their mastery in other ways then robbing a whole 'city' clean. I'm sure there'd be less emphasis on burglarizing from that guild.

As someone who plays the burglar class regularly (the class, mind you, not the profession) I can attest that it is actually a useful guild. They're moderate thieves with the ability to peak, unlike even the thief subguild, and can hold up combat rather well against assassins and rangers (and with a bit of training, even warriors). They also make great spies because they're coupled with the listen skill, unlike assassins. You just have to be creative with them. Use your skills to infiltrate or lurk around or steal or do something that strikes people as original. The burglar guild has a unique set of skills that fit my playing style, and probably the playing styles of others.

Bottom line, getting rid of burglars isn't going to stop all apartment theft.

Burglars only have one skill that Assassins dont, and it's not listen.

It's more like 6 skills, but the class is still retarded.

[My 2 sids]

What if we set all/most of the PC doors on very high pick  (compete w/ the succurity guards around)
and then have more NPC doors where the rooms are loaded by the IMMs  for PC burglars?

You could also outlaw keys all together.  I mean, if each landlord's way of doing business is to collect a key... then it should be very suspicious if Amos is carrying around keys.

[tortall]

What if we set all/most of the PC doors on very high pick  (compete w/ the succurity guards around)
and then have more NPC doors where the rooms are loaded by the IMMs  for PC burglars?

You could also outlaw keys all together.  I mean, if each landlord's way of doing business is to collect a key... then it should be very suspicious if Amos is carrying around keys.

I like this.

[Dar]

Burglars in my opinion are very sad. Compared to other guilds, the 'only' thing they're good at is .. picking doors. The rest is either subpar, or not really even close to usefulness compared to the skills of other mundane guilds. If burglars were something 'more' then a gimped assassin, if burglars could show their mastery in other ways then robbing a whole 'city' clean. I'm sure there'd be less emphasis on burglarizing from that guild.

As someone who plays the burglar class regularly (the class, mind you, not the profession) I can attest that it is actually a useful guild. They're moderate thieves with the ability to peak, unlike even the thief subguild, and can hold up combat rather well against assassins and rangers (and with a bit of training, even warriors). They also make great spies because they're coupled with the listen skill, unlike assassins. You just have to be creative with them. Use your skills to infiltrate or lurk around or steal or do something that strikes people as original. The burglar guild has a unique set of skills that fit my playing style, and probably the playing styles of others.

Bottom line, getting rid of burglars isn't going to stop all apartment theft.

Burglars only have one skill that Assassins dont, and it's not listen.

It's more like 6 skills, but the class is still retarded.

Oh god, I'm sorry. You're right. I forgot the main steal/peek ones. So yeah ... but they're mostly inconsequential, some you have to basically abandon.

[Dar]

What if we set all/most of the PC doors on very high pick  (compete w/ the succurity guards around)
and then have more NPC doors where the rooms are loaded by the IMMs  for PC burglars?

You could also outlaw keys all together.  I mean, if each landlord's way of doing business is to collect a key... then it should be very suspicious if Amos is carrying around keys.

That would take burglars and toss em into a single player game. One of burglar's 'uses' in organizations, is to get into other people's apartments with a 'non robbing' goal in mind.

[Yokunama]

3) Anyone with the sneak and hide skills can rent an apartment, leave without losing the key, wait for it to run out and then go back a while later to empty it at their leisure. They can keep doing this for as long as they like. Some players have been known to specifically collect apartment keys for this purpose.

To me, this sounds like a lack of responsibility on the player's behalf.

[Yokunama]

Bottom line, getting rid of burglars isn't going to stop all apartment theft.

The goal here isn't to remove apartment theft. There needs to be something in place to keep people moderate what/where they steal from. From experience, I have found out that most burglars do not take a few items and ditch the scene. For some reason, they keep taking -everything- from the apartment with little regard for who might notice them (vNPCs, NPCs, and PCs).

[Salt Merchant]

It wouldn't be so bad if there was some sort of recognized burglar tithe.

For example, one of those stone hands that can serve as a container of sorts. The recognized procedure is to leave it by the door with some coin (or maybe a gem or two). If a burglar comes in, he or she takes the tithe and leaves a personal token of some sort (maybe a Kruth card) to let other burglars know the tithe's been paid for the next few weeks. And stays hands off of the other possessions.

Something along those lines.