Apartments and safety

[Good Gortok]

I doubt many would adhere to something like that.

[Halcyon]

I think this would be a different discussion if characters could hire guards, pay protection money, upgrade their locks, purchase locked and/or trapped containers, or simply keep the hours that a normal person in the world would.  As it is, not having a reasonably safe place to unpack or store goods shortcircuits quite a few merchant activities.  Try doing research with expensive materials in combination and losing them mid test, or having to replace your toolbox more than once.   

I know there are IC solutions to burglary, and I've seen some of them enacted.  Perhaps this will be self correcting over time.

[dustbunny]

I don't think the issue is the code. The issue is with the players.

It's Armageddon. If you're paying 100 'sid for a shitty room...expect someone to break in and take anything that looks good. Expect the lock to be shitty, too. Soldiers have better things to do than watch -your- door and make sure no one takes -your- stuff. If you pay more, you get a better lock.

I realize there are some players out there completely wiping out apartments. But there are also some really well played ones, as well. I've seen them. Someone who will come in, take a few things of worth, and just mess up your place.

To me, it sounds like something needs to be done about the current round of burglars in game. Or, don't keep precious things in your apartment. It's a level of trust, anyways. None of my characters have -ever- left anything they couldn't live without in their apartments. In Armageddon...you shouldn't really have a great deal. Especially not more than you can carry.

Just my two cents.

[Salt Merchant]

Probably the usual thing will happen. People will get fed up and stop renting apartments or putting anything in them. The current crop of burglars will find there's nothing left to steal and die off or retire. After a while, people will start feeling safe enough to leave things around again. And so it goes.

[Kevo]

I am the one who's been robbing you blind!! HAHAHA.


Not really, but I have played quite a bit of burglars in my time, and I'd like to add a few ideas/suggestions.

For players.
1. Live in a shitty apartment, leave your door unlocked, and put everything in a shelf/cupboard/hearth. Most thieves that I've seen will walk right by it, after -maybe- sticking their head in to look around. The only problem I see with this, is you'll most likely have the people who live with you rob your apartment.
2. If you don't like that, you could always pay the local crime lord (and there always is one) to stop being robbed or kill the person who's been robbing you. They'll most likely know who it is since it's their job to know where the criminals are. The only problem I can see with this is shilling out the extra coin, or possibly just not knowing who the local crime lord is.
3.Poison a lot of food, or buy a lot of poisoned food. (many of my chars died to this simply because I didn't think it was realistic for them to sit and stare at a piece of fruit and wonder if it's poisoned, only one of my char's has been so paranoid) Just don't forget which food is poisoned, yeah?
4.Neighborhood watch.

emote points at ~figure, glaring.
say (with a harsh grumble, reaching for ~shortsword) I don' 'member your ass at the last meetin'!! Who the fuck are ya'?

Seriously, I think that could work, playing times could definitely make this hard, but just one char keeping an eye on the tenants could really help -everyone- out. So, 6 people keeping an eye on the tenants could help the city out by narrowing down exactly who the burglars are.
5. Ask for a day off, or get the kids a babysitter, and sit down, in front of your door, just waiting for their ass, maybe you could bring some friends along too. 90% of most burglars just don't knock before they begin picking, so when the door swings open, crack them over the skull.
6. Put some dye on your door-handle, and catch them red-handed.



For staff.
I doubt that the staff has a problem with burglars, but if you're looking for a solution to make players happy I have a couple ideas that might -help-, but not necessarily fix things.

1. Amos invents a new lock. Requires two lock-picks in hand to pick, and may break both while being picked.
2. A way to bar the door from the inside, (i believe that's been suggested somewhere on the GDB), because, realistically, every apartment is not going to be empty just because the players are not on. The VNPC population must be scared out of it's wits by the cloaked figures that randomly enter rooms.
3. Please, by god, please, make some rooms just damn near impossible to enter by picking the lock. I've wanted for so, so long to have to scramble up the side of a wall, and climb in through a window. -That- would be just fucking fun to roleplay, and dangerous to fail.
4.Put an NPC in unrented apartments that virtually lives there. PC burglar comes in looking to collect on deathtaxes, and gets whacked by NPC badass, because NPC's don't like being robbed either.
5. Kill the GDB, I'm pretty sure that will cut down on most every complaint.


IMHO, these are good suggestions, mostly, and though I know someone will find many many faults with them, I think the best thing that can be done is be thankful for the stress and antagony, because very often, I find myself with -nothing- to complain about, and having to make up virtual things like sickness or VNPC prejudice to occupy my time get's rather boring and complicated.

[Archbaron]

I am the one who's been robbing you blind!! HAHAHA.


Not really, but I have played quite a bit of burglars in my time, and I'd like to add a few ideas/suggestions.

For players.
1. Live in a shitty apartment, leave your door unlocked, and put everything in a shelf/cupboard/hearth. Most thieves that I've seen will walk right by it, after -maybe- sticking their head in to look around. The only problem I see with this, is you'll most likely have the people who live with you rob your apartment.
2. If you don't like that, you could always pay the local crime lord (and there always is one) to stop being robbed or kill the person who's been robbing you. They'll most likely know who it is since it's their job to know where the criminals are. The only problem I can see with this is shilling out the extra coin, or possibly just not knowing who the local crime lord is.
3.Poison a lot of food, or buy a lot of poisoned food. (many of my chars died to this simply because I didn't think it was realistic for them to sit and stare at a piece of fruit and wonder if it's poisoned, only one of my char's has been so paranoid) Just don't forget which food is poisoned, yeah?
4.Neighborhood watch.

emote points at ~figure, glaring.
say (with a harsh grumble, reaching for ~shortsword) I don' 'member your ass at the last meetin'!! Who the fuck are ya'?

Seriously, I think that could work, playing times could definitely make this hard, but just one char keeping an eye on the tenants could really help -everyone- out. So, 6 people keeping an eye on the tenants could help the city out by narrowing down exactly who the burglars are.
5. Ask for a day off, or get the kids a babysitter, and sit down, in front of your door, just waiting for their ass, maybe you could bring some friends along too. 90% of most burglars just don't knock before they begin picking, so when the door swings open, crack them over the skull.
6. Put some dye on your door-handle, and catch them red-handed.



For staff.
I doubt that the staff has a problem with burglars, but if you're looking for a solution to make players happy I have a couple ideas that might -help-, but not necessarily fix things.

1. Amos invents a new lock. Requires two lock-picks in hand to pick, and may break both while being picked.
2. A way to bar the door from the inside, (i believe that's been suggested somewhere on the GDB), because, realistically, every apartment is not going to be empty just because the players are not on. The VNPC population must be scared out of it's wits by the cloaked figures that randomly enter rooms.
3. Please, by god, please, make some rooms just damn near impossible to enter by picking the lock. I've wanted for so, so long to have to scramble up the side of a wall, and climb in through a window. -That- would be just fucking fun to roleplay, and dangerous to fail.
4.Put an NPC in unrented apartments that virtually lives there. PC burglar comes in looking to collect on deathtaxes, and gets whacked by NPC badass, because NPC's don't like being robbed either.
5. Kill the GDB, I'm pretty sure that will cut down on most every complaint.


IMHO, these are good suggestions, mostly, and though I know someone will find many many faults with them, I think the best thing that can be done is be thankful for the stress and antagony, because very often, I find myself with -nothing- to complain about, and having to make up virtual things like sickness or VNPC prejudice to occupy my time get's rather boring and complicated.

I endorse everything here.

[Good Gortok]

I don't think the issue is the code. The issue is with the players.

It's Armageddon. If you're paying 100 'sid for a shitty room...expect someone to break in and take anything that looks good. Expect the lock to be shitty, too. Soldiers have better things to do than watch -your- door and make sure no one takes -your- stuff. If you pay more, you get a better lock.

I realize there are some players out there completely wiping out apartments. But there are also some really well played ones, as well. I've seen them. Someone who will come in, take a few things of worth, and just mess up your place.

To me, it sounds like something needs to be done about the current round of burglars in game. Or, don't keep precious things in your apartment. It's a level of trust, anyways. None of my characters have -ever- left anything they couldn't live without in their apartments. In Armageddon...you shouldn't really have a great deal. Especially not more than you can carry.

Just my two cents.

First of all, the type of apartment doesn't seem to make much of a difference. In fact, it seems to me that burglars aspire to break into the most expensive apartments possible with the reasonable assumption that someone who can afford a place like that will have things worth stealing. I've had apartments in every block in both cities and there hasn't been much difference in the frequency of theft, partly, I suspect, because actual burglary with lockpicks doesn't actually account for the vast majority of it. Also because becoming skilled enough to best all but the strongest (and rarest) locks doesn't take a terribly long time.

Secondly, I don't agree with the notion that Zalanthans generally don't own any more than the proverbial shirts on their backs. Maybe in the desert and the absolutely poorest quarters of the cities, but I'm pretty sure just about anyone who can afford an apartment also has a fair amount of belongings: clothes, tools, utility items, cards and other games, food and water for at least a few days at a time. It's also a matter of playability as you're fairly limited in what you can do if you have only what you can carry, and as mentioned, many players probably refrain from using merchants as much as they would if they knew they could have some degree of certainty that they'd keep their things. Currently, the only thing that keeps apartments from being utterly without purpose is that the basic furniture such as beds, ovens and couches usually can't be picked up.

It's a matter of playerbase mentality. If the code allows it, some will do it even if at the expense of everyone else. I don't think this can be helped without eliminating the problem entirely. I remember reading an old post by Sanvean berating players for stealing the couch out of the Bard's Barrel, and apparently the only way to avoid this was to make it no_take. I don't want burglary to be impossible, but evidently the current system is too easy to abuse, or has too many burglars in proportion to the number of apartments, that it more or less ruins that aspect of the game.

[Whoa Nelly]

Bribe your local authority to strategically place enforcement.

[Dar]

It wouldn't be so bad if there was some sort of recognized burglar tithe.

For example, one of those stone hands that can serve as a container of sorts. The recognized procedure is to leave it by the door with some coin (or maybe a gem or two). If a burglar comes in, he or she takes the tithe and leaves a personal token of some sort (maybe a Kruth card) to let other burglars know the tithe's been paid for the next few weeks. And stays hands off of the other possessions.

Something along those lines.

Find out IC

[Clearsighted]

Completely agreed.  Apartments are worthless as storage.  Only good for mudsex and assassinating people (when you're done having mudsex with them).

This.

Maybe we need more observant apartment minders?

They all scan, and are 'observant' in direct proportion to the expense level of the building.  In some cases they have maxed scan, but in no case are they gimpy scanners.  I don't see how we can make them more observant.

You can't. Because most any burglar worth their salt has not only max stealth abilities, but most likely a very well known set of gear that further offers their stealth a tremendous boost, far beyond anything that can boost scan (and which is much rarer anyways).

And in any case, the problem, 3/4th of the time has to do less with that local kleptomaniac burglar with 20,000 sids in the bank, as it does with one or two magicker sorts.

[Whoa Nelly]

Apartments.  A great place to go to die if you're tired of playing your character.

Think of it like sticking a giraffe in a hole.

[Ammut]

Apartments need to have their locking mechanisms revamped, I've thought this for a long time ever since my first burglar lived past 10 days.  I think if the lockpicking system had a makeover there would more reason to use apartments as more than just a place to mudsex or kill another player.  This of course should take place in Arm 2, rather than in the current incarnation imo.

There was a good post made by Betaal in a thread I posted a while back which was focused on locks (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,31166.0.html):

I believe there are several different levels at which the play of the burglar should be addressed.  The current day burglar has created an all-or-nothing situation with their victims.  Either goods are locked behind completely inaccessible storerooms in completely inaccessible GMH compounds, or they are a free-for-all for nearly any burglar with enough time on their hands.  Issues that contribute to this are a lack of relationship between picks and locks, a lack of tools for a burglar to employ his/her skill in different ways, a lack of potential entries, and a lack of limitations/consequences on one's movement.

> Lack of relationship between picks and locks.

I agree with the OP that it would be nice to have both a variance of locks and a variance of picks that go along with a burglar's level of skill -- and not only a vertical scale in way of lock and pick quality, but lateral movement in types of locks that are used and what tools are required to bypass them.  That might create a little more fun for the burglar if they have to carry a suite of tools because they never know what kind of lock they might come up against.

> Lack of tolls for a burglar to employ his/her skills.

When I say tools, I don't necessarily mean lockpicks.  I'm referring more to ways that he/she can use their skills and knowledge to infiltrate even guarded or visible doors.  Ways to distract guards which temporarily removes their "guard" status on the door.  Using the new adverbial commands Morgenes has posted about, perhaps it will be possible to quietly pick a lock, so that your PC is visible, but perhaps other NPC's/PC's will not see them picking the lock unless they are actively watching them.

> Lack of potential entries.

There should be more freedom in Arm 2.0 to allow for multiple entries including windows and rooftops.  However, simply because they exist doesn't mean that they will be easily accessible or everyone will fit into them.  There may be a benefit to having a small and thin burglar if wriggling through holes is something they prefer to be doing.  Many of these would also require fairly frequent use of the climb skill.

> Lack of limitations/consequences.

There's little consequence to breaking into an apartment once the job is done.  The PC/NPC that might ICly be sleeping within that chamber has 0% to do anything about it.  The surrounding NPC's rarely react in any realistic way once you are past their initial guard.  (i.e. They won't let you in, but they'll certainly let you out dragging a couch and 2 bulging bags worth of somebody's goods.)  It'd be interesting if these choke points or access areas checked for your key on your way in and out, especially if you had a large amount of goods.  And one way to combat avoiding them might be to have weight have a significant consequence on one's ability to sneak/hide.  This may limit how much a potential burglar can manage to haul out of a building, forcing them to choose (more realistically) what pieces they really want to take with them instead of just loading up everything and dragging it to their apartment.

> Other limitations.

It wouldn't be fair to simply give burglars even more methods and abilities to barge into chambers and steal what they want, so it would probably be a good idea to represent some of the other ideas that have been suggested on the forums.  The ability to bar a door from the inside, making it near impossible to enter quietly, would offer some PC's some peace of mind.  Also the potential for there to be some kind of IC reaction to a burglar's presence within a building/home when the PC/NPC isn't represented physically, but is registered as there ICly.

There are many aspects of burglary in general that should be addressed in Arm 2.0, and I'll certainly do my part in attempting to make my settlement comprised of the elements I can control in this equation -- implementing multiple entries into some buildings and homes, creating guard patterns/rotations that give players a chance to infiltrate larger organizations and/or buildings, and a three dimensional area so they can choose multiple methods of travel around a certain area of the settlement.

That isn't to say I plan to make it easy, but that I'll plan to make it interesting.

[Salt Merchant]

And in any case, the problem, 3/4th of the time has to do less with that local kleptomaniac burglar with 20,000 sids in the bank, as it does with one or two magicker sorts.

How can you possibly know whether it's magickers 3/4th of the time or not?

[Salt Merchant]

Apartments.  A great place to go to die if you're tired of playing your character.

Think of it like sticking a giraffe in a hole.

[KIA]

What if you could bolt or bar the door from the inside to make it impenetrable. This way, if you log out in your apartment, it can't be picked (since there's a bolt/bar across the inaccessible end).

These bolts would be automatically opened when the rent expires.

This would encourage people to quit out in their homes, make people more vulnerable to being tailed perhaps, but certainly it would make burglarizing the home much more risky, as essentially you'd have to do it when the tenant is AWAKE and IN GAME, or at least NOT AT HOME.

Now you have a situation where the burglar may have to have help, one person to go into the apartment, and the other to keep an eye on the guy who owns it. You'd have to figure out who that is, of course, and set up some kind of warning system.

Right now you have solo-buglar x robbing places when there's 11 people online, and largely avoiding any kind of threat of interaction from PCs or staff. Lets change that.

-KIA

[Ammut]

Right now you have solo-buglar x robbing places when there's 11 people online, and largely avoiding any kind of threat of interaction from PCs or staff. Lets change that.

-KIA

I couldn't agree more.

[X-D]

I've always agreed with that, and it is such a simple fix.

Even if I've never had much of a burgler problem myself.

[Salt Merchant]

Barring doors was suggested a long time ago, and the problem is this: what happens when the person barring the door never bothers to log in again? A whole room or building effectively is removed from the game.

NOTE: not all rooms with lockable doors are for rented apartments.

EDIT: also, what happens to shared living space? You go home and bar the door and your wife suddenly can't get in?

[Dar]

What if you could bolt or bar the door from the inside to make it impenetrable. This way, if you log out in your apartment, it can't be picked (since there's a bolt/bar across the inaccessible end).

These bolts would be automatically opened when the rent expires.

I like and dislike this idea. Mainly, because this will allow certain guilds to go all around the world freely, and 'still' have an impenetrable place of storage and rest somewhere, simply due to their ability to ignore doors ... or laws of physics.

[Marauder Moe]

What if you could bolt or bar the door from the inside to make it impenetrable. This way, if you log out in your apartment, it can't be picked (since there's a bolt/bar across the inaccessible end).

This idea has potential.


Also, to clarify, I love guild_burglar.  I just dislike skill_lockpick.  Burglars are a great guild, they just need to be called "rogue" or something rather than burglar.

Barring doors was suggested a long time ago, and the problem is this: what happens when the person barring the door never bothers to log in again? A whole room or building effectively is removed from the game.

So?

[Thunkkin]

I like and dislike this idea. Mainly, because this will allow certain guilds to go all around the world freely, and 'still' have an impenetrable place of storage and rest somewhere, simply due to their ability to ignore doors ... or laws of physics.

Benefits of apartments with a bar on the door:
- more people spending coin on rent
- more people spending coin on items for decoration
       - more interactions for House crafters
       - more interactions for indies
- more players feeling 'attached' to zalanthas
- more realism
- more neat places to go/see (since these places will feel inhabited)
- more excitement for burglars
- a greater emphasis on RP skill/cunning for burglars

Drawbacks:
- a few powerful players will have a nice perk

[Wolfsong]

Barring doors was suggested a long time ago, and the problem is this: what happens when the person barring the door never bothers to log in again? A whole room or building effectively is removed from the game.

These bolts would be automatically opened when the rent expires.

[Salt Merchant]

Barring doors was suggested a long time ago, and the problem is this: what happens when the person barring the door never bothers to log in again? A whole room or building effectively is removed from the game.

These bolts would be automatically opened when the rent expires.

NOTE: not all quit-safe rooms with lockable doors are for rented apartments.

EDIT: also, what happens to shared living space? You go home and bar the door and your wife suddenly can't get in?

[Thunkkin]

NOTE: not all quit-safe rooms with lockable doors are for rented apartments.

I'm pretty sure this thread is about apartments and safety.

EDIT: also, what happens to shared living space? You go home and bar the door and your wife suddenly can't get in?

This is trickier. 

Maybe have two apartment types.

Room 1) A small crappy room with a crappy lock
Room 2) A small crappy room with a big bar for the door

If you want to get snuggly with a roommate, rent room #1.  If you want your own room that, while you are sleeping, you can bar the door, rent room #2.

[Marauder Moe]

Let an actual key bypass the bar?  It would be as though the roommate weren't there at the time.