Special apps

[musashi]

Easy now ... just a game on the internetz 

But I can see where number13 is comming from in that, a lot of people think that the game is not about coded power, but rather, about good PC to PC interaction. To people of that mindset (myself included) special app'ing something for the ability to codedly "win" at the game might come up a bit shallow in comparison to some of your earlier examples, like app'ing a rat, were-kank, and what have you.

[Synthesis]

Easy now ... just a game on the internetz 

But I can see where number13 is comming from in that, a lot of people think that the game is not about coded power, but rather, about good PC to PC interaction. To people of that mindset (myself included) special app'ing something for the ability to codedly "win" at the game might come up a bit shallow in comparison to some of your earlier examples, like app'ing a rat, were-kank, and what have you.

It's not about "winning" the game:  it's about being able to survive for at least the 4 months minimum you've invested in even -applying- for the role.

[musashi]

Then we come back around to the point I made at first. The special app character might not be a raider or a rouge 'gicker (or rate ...) who has to live on the bad end of the entire player base starting right out of character generation and survive on that jagged edge.

They might be a ranger who's dad was a merchant and thus, they want the bater and value skills; or they might be someone who wants to play a Whiran but only has karma for a Vivaduan, but they're still gemmed, and still hanging out in Allanak.

I don't see their chances of being suddenly hunted down as being exceptionally high, or in need of crazy power boosts to justify them.

[Clearsighted]

Furthermore, what about all the crazy ideas that might just be crazy, but might also have been really cool?

I played a special-apped rat once, and that was fun.  Who the hell is going to special app for a rat now? 

I applied for a magick gwoshi once and got rejected...sure, maybe it was crazy, but it might have been accepted (and if it were, it would've been really fucking cool, in my humble opinion).

For a while I've had an idea about a psionicist/burglar who breaks into people's apartments, rearranges their belongings, then makes them believe the furniture was always arranged that way.  No chance I'm going to waste one of my 3 slots/year on something that asinine (despite its potential for hilarity).

I've been thinking about applying for a city-elf warrior with some sneak skills, possibly clanned in a coded city-elf tribe in order to reinvigorate the city-elf scene, but right now I doubt I'm going to waste a special-app on what is quite possibly a hopeless role destined for an early death by twinkery.

Similarly, I was thinking about applying for a human tribal with some extra skills, to maybe help one of the tribes get some loving, but again:  not going to waste a special app. on a character that can get picked off at a moment's notice by some bored elf with a buttload of arrows he's been practicing his poisoning skills on.

The only roles I'd wait 4 months for are sorceror or psionicist Bad Asses.  Sorry, but that's just the only attitude that seems rational to me at this point.

You know. Alot of players manage to make non-special apped roles last longer than four months, while dealing with the same dangers.

[Synthesis]

Then we come back around to the point I made at first. The special app character might not be a raider or a rouge 'gicker (or rate ...) who has to live on the bad end of the entire player base starting right out of character generation and survive on that jagged edge.

They might be a ranger who's dad was a merchant and thus, they want the bater and value skills; or they might be someone who wants to play a Whiran but only has karma for a Vivaduan, but they're still gemmed, and still hanging out in Allanak.

I don't see their chances of being suddenly hunted down as being exceptionally high, or in need of crazy power boosts to justify them.

Okay, I appreciate your concern here with rooting out potential exceptions to the rule.

However, if we assume that players will behave with even a modicum of rationality, then the inevitable conclusion is that the majority of applications submitted will have to have a substantial payoff to balance out the risk of losing a scarce commodity.  It's like banking with player characters:  you're not going to grant a "loan" to a concept that isn't going to provide a return on the investment. 

This leaves most experienced players who can already apply normally for most karma-required roles in the lurch:  the expected payoff for a few extra skills is nominal compared to the 4 months of special-application dead-time you would incur.  Thus, the only rational application consists of a powerful character above your karma level:  getting a few extra skills on a class/race you can already apply for is simply not worth it.  If you're essentially burning four months, you might as well go large.

[a strange shadow]

Or... you can play something else during those four months? Or not be so focused on being "rewarded" or "powerful"?

I just don't get the logic.

[Synthesis]

Furthermore, what about all the crazy ideas that might just be crazy, but might also have been really cool?

I played a special-apped rat once, and that was fun.  Who the hell is going to special app for a rat now? 

I applied for a magick gwoshi once and got rejected...sure, maybe it was crazy, but it might have been accepted (and if it were, it would've been really fucking cool, in my humble opinion).

For a while I've had an idea about a psionicist/burglar who breaks into people's apartments, rearranges their belongings, then makes them believe the furniture was always arranged that way.  No chance I'm going to waste one of my 3 slots/year on something that asinine (despite its potential for hilarity).

I've been thinking about applying for a city-elf warrior with some sneak skills, possibly clanned in a coded city-elf tribe in order to reinvigorate the city-elf scene, but right now I doubt I'm going to waste a special-app on what is quite possibly a hopeless role destined for an early death by twinkery.

Similarly, I was thinking about applying for a human tribal with some extra skills, to maybe help one of the tribes get some loving, but again:  not going to waste a special app. on a character that can get picked off at a moment's notice by some bored elf with a buttload of arrows he's been practicing his poisoning skills on.

The only roles I'd wait 4 months for are sorceror or psionicist Bad Asses.  Sorry, but that's just the only attitude that seems rational to me at this point.

You know. Alot of players manage to make non-special apped roles last longer than four months, while dealing with the same dangers.

A lot of players?  Maybe.  Let's let the data speak to the facts:  the average lifespan of a character in the game is about 2 weeks, according to Gimf's last posted analysis.  Hell, I've been playing the game for 10 years and I still die to dumb shit like the beetle that was north-east.  When I consider the odds, I find it ridiculous to even imagine special apping say, a warrior who can speak cavilish.  The skill adds zilch to your odds of survival, which means that you just set yourself up for an expected payoff of something like negative 14 weeks.  In other words, you might as well play an ordinary warrior and save your special application slots for something totally fucking awesome that other players will probably roll their eyes at and go, "Gosh, another one of -those-?"

[Synthesis]

Or... you can play something else during those four months? Or not be so focused on being "rewarded" or "powerful"?

I just don't get the logic.

You don't get the logic because you don't understand the premises, probably because you've (according to your own admission, at least) been playing the same role for an ungodly amount of time.  When you burn through characters at the rate of 1-2 a month, your perspective on the situation will probably change.

It's pretty basic risk vs. reward reasoning/game theory.  You can try to wish that people were different, but human nature has a way of defeating all possible alternatives.  So I'm simply making a prediction: fewer "flavor" special apps who blend in with the world.  More applications for "power" special apps.

Of course, if you are satisfied by mudsex and tavern roleplay, this change probably won't affect you, and you can carry on with your interests.

[musashi]

Let's let the data speak to the facts:  the average lifespan of a character in the game is about 2 weeks, according to Gimf's last posted analysis.  Hell, I've been playing the game for 10 years and I still die to dumb shit like the beetle that was north-east.  When I consider the odds, I find it ridiculous to even imagine special apping say, a warrior who can speak cavilish.  The skill adds zilch to your odds of survival, which means that you just set yourself up for an expected payoff of something like negative 14 weeks.  In other words, you might as well play an ordinary warrior and save your special application slots for something totally fucking awesome that other players will probably roll their eyes at and go, "Gosh, another one of -those-?"

Could you tell me where in Gimf's post she said she average lifespan was about 2 weeks? I couldn't find it in the OP.

That aside though, I think the statistics are a bit skewed in that regard. I would think most people play characters they are really digging for at least a RL month if not several. I know quite a few have had characters last into RL years. But inbetween those awesome long-lived interesting characters I think that people probably have a couple of "throw-aways" as we call them, who they more or less, let die on purpose. Sort of a ... hmm I could flee the beetle but ... fuck it, this guy is boring." Kind of mentality.

I'm just basing that off my own personal experience, because the several month long ranger that I had was perfectly capable of fleeing from all manner of NPC wildlife to survive. Even though it was NPC wildlife that ended up getting him in the end, it took him basically falling into a hole and being attacked while prone and stuck in darkness to really do him in. Escapsing normal raptors/carru/scrabs/ect was never a problem.

So I'm just thinking that people who really want their current PC to survive can usually keep them around for at least several months, hence ... I don't see the logic in assuming that special app characters are any more prone to die than the normal ones (again, unless you're apping a rouge 'gicker who lives in the waste or a raider ... but special app or not those roles have a low survivability rate) ... and since I don't see them as being any more prone to die, I don't see people playing them as being any more prone to being trigger-happy or iso than they normally would be.

EDIT: I would also totally blow all three of my yearly special apps on flavor roles like rats, were-shiks, and muls with a mustache.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm with Synthesis here. I don't even know If I want to make a special app now, with my track record of killing my chars off within only a few days playing. Now I'll save those three chances for some extremely well thought out, Karma class that I don't have, because why waste something I can only use three times on a couple little stat boosts that 10+ games days can get me. I've never spec-apped something that wasn't above starting karma, but now that's all I will probably app.

Then again I'll end up just making some uber class I've never played before and he'll die in under a days playing time too, so what does it matter?


It's not about winning or being better than other players. It's about having your character more represent the background you want for him/her, and giving him the tools to start you off in a well thought-out role.

[Dar]

I must say, I see Synthesis points. Sometimes, you have this ... concept in mind, that requires juuuust a little bit of Imm help. Not to make the chara superly skilled, not to make the chara super buff, but just to give the chara a 'lil' flavor, a 'lil' difference from ... let's admit it, pretty boring selection of guilds (Once you've played them all 3-8 times. Not that I did ... or anything.)


But fact is ... characters die, more then that ... they die often and suddenly, without them expecting it most of the time. Which means your wonderful concept that was special apped to offer just a tiny bit of flavour to him, could end it's existance on his third hour of gameplay. Or even if not third hour ...after a rl month. There are plenty of 'blink blink' insta mantis screen deaths in the game. Incidents which are completely out of whack, completely out of nowhere, and not really controllable unless you're forewarned.

With a limit on 3 apps per year, you will have to pick and choose your concepts.  You can ... special app a (not so special/uber concept), and die in 3 hours/1 month, using up one special app selection. Or ... you can just create a mundane character (without the added flavor) do some compromises, do some alterations, and just ... 'grind' your concept into what you envisioned him to be. While leaving your special app slots for characters with ... UBER ABILITIES. Simply because ... UBER ABILITIES, tend to drastically increase one's lifespan, simply due to being ... UBER. Which means the odds of survivng past one months are higher, which means special apping charas with UBER abilities is just more sensable of an investment, then special apping a character with some added 'flavor' traits.

The result? People stop special apping concepts just to add something they would think enrich the game, even if it's not earth shattering elementals of doom.  And begin special apping concepts that are 'only' uber in nature.

I would advice changing the policy a little. Simply do this. Every account can place 3 special apps which will be reviewed in the regular normal matter that they are being reviewed in now. AFTER the 3 special app limit is reached, all the 'other' special apps are put in a different section, which is always reviewed 'only' after the 'main' section is emptied out. Maybe move the 'delayed' app to 'normal' app, if it has been untouched for one month.

This way, people might still choose to special app flavor characters, but will need to come to the fact that they might have to wait ... perhaps much longer then they had usually.

[number13]

You don't get the logic because you don't understand the premises, probably because you've (according to your own admission, at least) been playing the same role for an ungodly amount of time.  When you burn through characters at the rate of 1-2 a month, your perspective on the situation will probably change.

Discounting months in which I've been inactive, my burn rate is probably around 2 characters a month if not higher. I also have made a grand total of 3 special apps over the course of probably two years (all rejected, and rightly so). I've played 3 hours worth of a karma-required character, and then stored it.  Every other character I've had has been 0 karma. No sponsored roles applied for or offered.

Apparently I should get a Mundane Medal to be pinned to my chest, because I can have adequate fun in the game minus the ability to app a Mindbender with Sneak/Hide/Pick or a warrior tricked out with Backstab and AI strength. It feels like an arms race. Maybe I should have been special apping warriors with a few extra super powers all along?  How is my character ever going to be significant in a coded sense otherwise?

EDIT:

I would also totally blow all three of my yearly special apps on flavor roles like rats, were-shiks, and muls with a mustache.

Agreed.

[musashi]

Hmm, I must be playing on a different wavelength. My PC's have never died unless I knew the situation there were in was dangerous beforehand (I never tried to drink from the cleaning barrel, the boards warned me ahead of time!!!). I've never really had death spring up on me out of nowhere and leave me completely dissatisfied, so I wouldn't be worried about suddent insta-death affecting what I do or don't special app.

[Vanth]

A post was removed for flaming.

For what it's worth, I don't think that saving your apps up for a psi/sorc is a good strategy.  So few apps for those classes get approved, it wouldn't seem to be worth it, to me.  The less you ask for, the more likely you are to get approved.

Player A will have 3 rejected psi apps.  Player B will have 3 approved apps for something Player A thought was "a waste."

[Lizzie]

Saving special apps isn't worth it, only to people who have played them before and are already in the "been there done that" phase of playing Arm. To those of us who have little or no knowledge of the more "arcane" and dark side of Armageddon, these are the "big deal" roles that we strive for.  And if we don't "waste" our special apps on those roles, who will? The same few who always get those roles anyway? If that's the case, why bother even allowing them at all? Just tell us "these roles exist only for those few, and will never be available for anyone else again."

[deviant storm]

Hmm, I must be playing on a different wavelength. My PC's have never died unless I knew the situation there were in was dangerous beforehand (I never tried to drink from the cleaning barrel, the boards warned me ahead of time!!!). I've never really had death spring up on me out of nowhere and leave me completely dissatisfied, so I wouldn't be worried about suddent insta-death affecting what I do or don't special app.

Count yourself lucky. Trying not to go into detail, I have had a streak of late where I go through a couple characters a week. Some of it was the normal stuff...npc critters and bad choices, mostly. However, some of it was...well, I can't go into ic detail. Suffice it to say some really good characters I looked forward to playing for a good long time met the mantis head early and I'm still not very happy about that. It certainly wasn't by a choice I made. It was due to other player 'factors'.

I can understand a little of what Synthesis is saying. Though again, I don't have the patience for special apps and so I doubt I'll ever make that Ubercharacter. I might someday go for a tweaking on a character I could play now, if I come up with a concept good enough to make me consider it worth the long wait time for approval.

But that's just me.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

The whole point of reducing the number of special applications you can toss out in a year is so that the wait will be less.  Instead of having to wait three months to hear back about that role you want to play that's just one more karma than you've got, because there will be fewer people spamming in a new spec app every time they kill off their old one, you might only have to wait two weeks.

Since I only very rarely spec app anything, I don't see anything wrong with that.  I personally benefit a lot from not having to wait four months for my one spec app in the last two years to go through.  This change makes me happy.

So instead I get to wait two weeks for my character that may last two weeks... or may last a lot longer.  If you're interested in preserving the length of time you play a spec app, maybe you shouldn't engage in risky behaviors like... playing the game. 

As for people 'saving it up' I think that's pretty ridiculous.  If you're the kind of person who is interested in playing more than 3 uber-leet beefed up concepts in a year, I'm not really crying for you.  Or who has to fudge your application three times to have it go through.  To me, that seems like not putting enough thought into not only what you want to play, but what would be acceptable to have in the game world also.  Come walk with the rest of us, who can have fun without bugging the staff with twelve concepts that just need a little or a lot of tweaking.

Got to go to work, sorry for the lack of polish on this one 

[Krath]

Your three Special applications per year  does not include the roles offered in Staff Announcements does it?

[musashi]

That's been answered a couple of times now. 

No, it doesn't.

[a strange shadow]

Of course, if you are satisfied by mudsex and tavern roleplay, this change probably won't affect you, and you can carry on with your interests.

...rofl. Cute. Also no.

You and I will have to agree to disagree. We have a completely different approach to the game.

Mine seems to be working out for me, so I'll stick with it.

[Rahnevyn]

The idea behind this isn't to restrict you to playing only roles that are 'uber' so you can survive. In fact it's quite the opposite. I've seen a lot of special apps that were simply crazy and had an ice cube's chance in hell of being approved (example: zalanthan heavy metal rock band complete with metal instruments), or that were so completely unbalanced that the player should have known it would have thrown the whole game off (example: ancient sorcerer in a half-giant's body but with human intelligence, with a full warrior skill tree).

The goal behind this is to reduce the special app work load by encouraging you to send in special apps that are likely to get approved. We'll be working on some extra documentation to give more hints and tips towards that. Instead of trying to special app the most powerful character possible, you should focus on concepts you've always wanted to try that have been beyond your reach, and put lots of thought and detail into them before you apply.

[Cavaticus]

Synthesis, I looked over your account and see that in the last twelve months you have submitted...

Three special applications.

So I guess what I'm saying is that you should just keep on keeping on and continue to submit special applications through the request tool at your current rate, and you should be just fine.

[FantasyWriter]

What if you are rejected, fix about the character what you are asked to fix, and resubmit.... does that count as two or one?

[Morgenes]

What if you are rejected, fix about the character what you are asked to fix, and resubmit.... does that count as two or one?

A rejected app counts the same as an approved app.  You won't be able to submit again for 30 days and counts against your 3 per 12 month limit.

[mansa]

I think we're all forgetting that this doesn't affect the playerbase, except for the 10% that send in over four applications.

I mean, I send in one special app a year, if that.