Should elementalists be removed from the game, with sorcerers left in?

[Salt Merchant]

Why not just remove elementalists from the game and be done with it. We've all read the topic-that-will-not-die, the hydra-like-we-hate-magickers-thread that, beheaded, simply grows two new ones. I've had enough.

Leave sorcerers in.

It's no great joy to play a gemmed mage if you're an active sort of player. You get the impression that, nowadays, every time your mage so much as shows his face, he's ruining someone's game experience. Playing a rogue mage isn't much better, with guild sniffing and mindworming and such going on. Nuts to it.

Closing up shop on elementalists means more players for other clans also.

I'm serious this time. The constant attacks and negative comments have worn me down.

[Jingo]

Interesting question. But... I'm going to have to say no.

I've allways wondered why there were more mage classes that mundanes. Couldn't we just cut out a few of the elementalist classes?
Or better yet, just choose elementalist as a guild and then choose an element in character creation?

I do agree that there is something to be desired from the mage roleplay expierience. I'm playing a mage right now and am none-too-happy with the branching (spamcast) system.

[Yam]

No.

[Marauder Moe]

I'm not seeing the logic here.

You're saying that you don't like playing mages anymore, therefor no one should be allowed to play mages anymore?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm not sure what I think. I'd have to say no, probably ... but the idea behind the question is a good one. As I have said many times before, I think Mages need to be controlled by number-in-game, and I further think that the feeling towards them in Allanak needs to disappear. Keep the innate hatred elsewhere, where your King has not sanctioned them having a Quarter for Ages.

[Cutthroat]

No. I just don't think the described problem is as bad as some people make it out to be.

[fourTwenty]

No, but can we please get rid of beetles?

[Salt Merchant]

I'm not seeing the logic here.

You're saying that you don't like playing mages anymore, therefor no one should be allowed to play mages anymore?

Not exactly. More like things have developed over the years to a point where I think it might do the game more good than ill.

Those keen on playing mages could still special-app sorcerer characters (or create them normally if they have enough karma). Currently living elementalists would stay in the game. They'd both suddenly be a lot more special in this context and more in keeping with how people seem to want mages to be (namely extra rare).

[Malifaxis]

There aren't enough font options or size options to put enough emphasis in my 'No' vote.

[Zoltan]

No. I just don't think the described problem is as bad as some people make it out to be.

[musashi]

I picked hell no, because I do enjoy what elementalists bring to the table.

As Jingo touched on though ... I often times wonder if we got just a little too carried away in making those elementalist guilds. Having not played all of them, of course, I admit my opinion is based solely on speculation but, I always thought the lightening, and shadow elementalists were a bit ... well ... of a stretch.

Call me a Legend of the Five Rings fan ... but I'm of the mind that earth, fire, wind, water, and the void between them just about sums up the whole of creation, and just from a glance, the addition of shadow, and lightening as their own element seems a bit tacked on to me. I always figured that Krathi could bicker with Vivaduans and be just as justified, and that most of what a lightening elementalist can do could likely be split between Whirans and Krathi.

But, that's just musing of an idle mind. They're already in game, they already have a history surrounding them, so I'm cool with them staying there and wouldn't ever try to put out a call to see them removed.

To talk a bit about the title of the thread though ... without elementalists, I doubt that sorcerers would be half as scary/powerful/awesome as they're thought to be now.

To me, the fact that elementalists are limited to their one element alone is precisely what makes a sorcerer's ability to use all the elements so amazing/frightening. If we didn't have that contrast, I don't think sorcerers would be nearly as special.

[Qzzrbl]

To me, the fact that elementalists are limited to their one element alone is precisely what makes a sorcerer's ability to use all the elements so amazing/frightening. If we didn't have that contrast, I don't think sorcerers would be nearly as special.

By that logic, if "elementalists limited to one element = scary sorcerers", then wouldn't "entirely mundane; no magic = wtfomgscary sorcerers"?

[Lizzie]

I think the biggest "problem" with mages, is the ridiculous amount of energy wasted in discussing them on the GDB, in AIM, in chat, etc. etc.

I, of course, am a willing participant in the ridiculousness.

[musashi]

To me, the fact that elementalists are limited to their one element alone is precisely what makes a sorcerer's ability to use all the elements so amazing/frightening. If we didn't have that contrast, I don't think sorcerers would be nearly as special.

By that logic, if "elementalists limited to one element = scary sorcerers", then wouldn't "entirely mundane; no magic = wtfomgscary sorcerers"?

It could, I admit ... but couldn't it also make people start viewing sorcerers as "just another magicker" ... since they would now be the only kind ... instead of viewing them as "OMFG Run!!! RUN!!!!"?

[Doppelganger]

Protesting against piss in the pot of honey does not necessarily make one a honey-hater. No.

[Qzzrbl]

Yeah, I'm not against magickers in general.

I'm just against that it's so easy for them to skill up.

Seriously, it seems like that's all they do when they're not letting me shun and make jokes about them in the Gaj.

[Good Gortok]

For completely selfish reasons, I would happily agree to see elementalists abolished from the game. Or at least gemmed. They just seem to serve little purpose compared to what they seem to detract from the game, usually taking a good half-dozen players and turning them into complete non-factors for the game world. That's not strictly true, of course, but for the vast majority of players they may as well not exist. The same old gemmer-hate roleplay in the Gaj has become so worn and trite that it's almost jarring to me, and they are so separated from the rest of the populace that neither side make much of an attempt to roleplay together at all. Still they remain as powerhouses who all but eliminate the real need for mundane characters in many RPTs and larger conflicts. I realize that a number of people enjoy playing gemmed mages, but from my admittedly biased point of view, everything about them is a negative influence on the game.

I'm just against that it's so easy for them to skill up.

Seriously, it seems like that's all they do when they're not letting me shun and make jokes about them in the Gaj.

Also this. It's unbelievably easy for someone to "train up" a magicker if they are willing to skirt the borders of twinking in order to do so, and let's face it, many are, magickers or not. The reason that gemmers seem to spend so much time casting away in their temples is likely a mix of the fact that they have little else to do, and that the rapid tangible gains is such a temptation. Who wouldn't want to make a gemmer, play for a few weeks and be able to single-handedly defeat just about any mundane character in the game? Not everybody, but some, and unfortunately this is particularly attractive to the wrong type of players.

So while I personally would have nothing against it if, for example, they removed gemmers and increased the restrictions on non-gemmed mages, I voted no. I don't think they should be removed because it would disappoint a lot of players and because magickers are such an integral part of the culture and documentation that it would leave gaps.

[LittleLostThief]

Nobody likes half-elves either... please remove the option so we can all get along.

But seriously... being a gemmed mage is an avenue that many people take upon creating their first elementalist.  Disproportionately, they're also one of the most difficult roles to create in a way that is enjoyable.  You have to have a really good, solid concept to enjoy your gemmer.  It's got to go beyond "I want to play an elementalist, and I want it to be easy like candy-land".  If that's as much thought as you put into it, you're going to be miserable.  Not ONLY that, but you need other three dimensional characters to interact with in the same position, or you're going to be doing a lot of flying solo.  It's very difficult for everything to come together just right.

I doubt any role sees more storage/suicide than gemmers.

[Thunkkin]

So, is playing a gemmer in 'Nak more isolated than, say, playing an elf?  How lonely is the life of a gemmer?  I always have (and will, until they're changed) played by the docs and avoided gemmer friendships as a mundane ... but I always feel vaguely sad that there's probably a really cool character concept there that I'll never get to know. 

Yet, in complete contradiction to this, I get a smug feeling every time I snub an elf and I never feel bad that I may be missing out on a fascinating elf personality.  Damn neckers, I wish they'd just keep away from me.  Hmm.

Doesn't really make sense, but there it is.

Oh, and I don't want gemmers removed.  Or elves. 

[Marauder Moe]

Well, the poll results are pretty conclusive at least.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Maybe part of the reason gemmed mages spend so much time 'skilling up' is because it's an extremely isolating and otherwise boring role in a lot of regards (or at least, that's how I found it) and there isn't much else for you to do with your time.

That said, while it would be extremely unlikely for me to play another gemmed mage willingly for the rest of my stay during 1.Arm, I think that denying others the opportunities to play gemmers and other elementalists would be a bit of a draconian effort to correct a 'problem' that not everyone agrees on in the first place.  Or the twenty-thousand magicker argument threads wouldn't go on for twenty pages a piece 

[jhunter]

No. A couple of the elementalists are the only magickers that I enjoy playing. I have to say I'm not a big fan of gemmed though. I very much prefer rogue elementalists to gemmed.

[X-D]

I voted hell no.

But, I would dearly love if the 3 new pseudo-elements went away and we went back to the basic 4 and they got the spells they lost to the fake elements back.

Alright, just get rid of elkros and drov, I rather like the void, it has a place.

[musashi]

Elkros and Drov were added after the fact? I KNEW it looked tacked on!

[mansa]

Elkros and Drov were added after the fact? I KNEW it looked tacked on!

http://armageddonmud.livejournal.com/

[Jingo]

I would personally miss drovians and nilazi if they got booted out.

Whirans on the other hand. We can do without them.

[Agent_137]

please junk them all.

having only sorcs would immediately make magick immensely scary and rare in reality, instead of just by the docs.

[Cerelum]

please junk them all.

having only sorcs would immediately make magick immensely scary and rare in reality, instead of just by the docs.

Sorcs don't start out uber scary either, all you'll do is have ash trailing newbies...least for a moment.

But truthfully, I think that elementalists just need to be stronger out the box, then they can portray the scary abomination they should be.

JaRoD

[musashi]

Elkros and Drov were added after the fact? I KNEW it looked tacked on!

http://armageddonmud.livejournal.com/

Some of the things in that journal frighten me. 

[jhunter]

I would personally miss drovians and nilazi if they got booted out.

Whirans on the other hand. We can do without them.

No we can't. They're my favorite elementalist, probably followed by drovians and then vivaduans.

[NoteworthyFellow]

I love Elkrans, I do, but I can see how the pseudo-element of energy could be a little bit of a stretch.  Drovians and Nilazi, on the other hand, feel right at home, to me, and I'd be quite upset to see them go.  I don't want to see Elkrans disappear, either, but I'd be less upset if they did.

[Jingo]

Yeah, I feel the same way about Elrkrans.

Though I do have a concept lingering at the back of my head for one.

[Lakota]

Elkrans are the coolest fucking magickers around. Nilazi are interesting as a concept but fail in practice. Drovians are severely underpowered (thanks, Sanvean ) and the other guilds just don't interest me. I'd be down with removing all magickers in favor of only sorcerors, but I know this will not happen, in this incarnation of ArmageddonMUD, or the next.

[KIA]

Given the choice, I'd play mundanes. Not given the choice, I'd also play mundanes, naturally.

I know there are people who swear by magickers and will play them time and time again. Just died? Make another magicker. Died again? Another magicker. That's my main problem, not that people play magickers, but that there is an abundance of them, and plenty of OOC knowledge floating around about them.

So I voted 'Yes'. Not HELL, yes, mind you... I know Zalanthas is a magick-weak world. I'd just prefer if it was magick-weaker. More plot time for the mundanes would result in vibrant political dramas and colorful characters. It would reinforce the culture difference between the major population centers. It would make confrontations with magick truly surprising, instead of leaving players (not all, but some) with a cheated feeling, because their mundane never stood a chance against all that high-karma alakazam. It would allow more time for the staff to watch mundanes and interact with them, supposing that currently, the high-karma classes and characters take a lot of oversight, cooperation and resources. That last bit might be inaccurate, but it seems so to me. More interaction with relative nobodies means that they have a chance to get karma where they have been overlooked. Staff has admitted that this problem with the Karma system exists.

I love to play mundanes, and I've learned to play in such a way that is exciting to me, rewarding to the characters that interact with me, in a style that (ideally) requires very little of that precious staff time. This style of play doesn't suit everyone, and I understand that. I try not to let it affect my attitudes of the karma classes, especially the aforementioned elementalists... but that can be challenging, so I empathize with the players who are frustrated by a system they don't understand, and that they may not be invited (for better or for worse) to play, themselves, and see what it is like.

Anyway, that's my piece. Thanks for listening.

KIA

[Pale Horse]

I'll chime in and say "no" to the removal of elementalists.

I'll chime in and say "yes" to the change in some of the docs (but I really don't expect that to happen), that would defines some magicker-mundane relations.

I'll even chime in and add that Eklrans are my personal favorite mage class, but as much as I am loathed to admit it, I can see why they seem out of place in the current environment.  From what I was made to understand, though,  through a correspondence with staff, is that Elkrans, Storm Mages, were around back when the world was more "typical fantasy like", so rain, storms and all that were common.  The weather and climate have changed, but the lightning-slingers are a lingering reminder of what the world used to be like.

[KIA]

I'll chime in and say "no" to the removal of elementalists.

I'll chime in and say "yes" to the change in some of the docs (but I really don't expect that to happen), that would defines some magicker-mundane relations.

I'll even chime in and add that Eklrans are my personal favorite mage class, but as much as I am loathed to admit it, I can see why they seem out of place in the current environment.  From what I was made to understand, though,  through a correspondence with staff, is that Elkrans, Storm Mages, were around back when the world was more "typical fantasy like", so rain, storms and all that were common.  The weather and climate have changed, but the lightning-slingers are a lingering reminder of what the world used to be like.

Static electricity is quite common in dry environments, including deserts. A sandstorm can build up impressive charges that look like the lightning you'd get in thunderstorms. I'm not certain that Elkrans are any more out of place than Vivaduans.

[number13]

Static electricity is quite common in dry environments, including deserts. A sandstorm can build up impressive charges that look like the lightning you'd get in thunderstorms. I'm not certain that Elkrans are any more out of place than Vivaduans.

Yes the above.  Also --> http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2005/arch05/051003marslightning.htm

....

I voted YES on the poll because I'd want magic to be more mysterious, less common.  Also, I don't think elementalists have a healthy connection to the rest of the player base, in terms of interaction. Elementlists are either shunned/beatdown. Or, they overshadow everyone else -- stepping all over niches that should belong to mundane classes in the process.

Templars and nobles overshadow everyone else as well. But they (usually, hopefully) are driving plots, creating fun.  An elementalist doesn't have that responsibility, so I wonder why they have the superpowers.  (I acknowledge the grind to acquire those superpowers is terrible....)

If were up to me -- All magickers would be apped for the same way Templars and nobles are, would be just as rare, and only slightly less respected/feared.  All magickers would have a piece of the plot they are responsible for driving, and all magickers would start with decent amount of power possibly including a fuller range of mundane skills. 

Their power could be keyed into how well they are performing their assigned goals. An elementalist who goes too far off the script loses all of her magick.

[Lakota]

What, and take away the option for players to create and roleplay their own unique concept because they are now forced to take part in a plot that may not fit said concept? Huh? Seriously?

No.

[Clearsighted]

please junk them all.

having only sorcs would immediately make magick immensely scary and rare in reality, instead of just by the docs.

Seconded.

[FightClub]

I feel elementalist do nothing to add to the flavor of the game.  Do I fear an elementalist when I see him out around the city? No.  Why? It's not rare, something you see everything single day isn't going to make you cringe and shiver and shit your pants, doubt me, watch the ring movies in sequence, by time you get to the end, you're just begging for it to be over.  If you wanted everyone to treat magickers with fear it should be in game that all mundanes have a innate phobia of magickers, and a coded response, preferably flee, like stand flee because magicker #11245 walked into a commoner, non-magicker bar to chatty it up.  You want people to "fear" magickers in game, like the docs propose, although it's entirely obscene given the amount of magickers one pc will encounter in even a five day pc EVEN IN TULUK.  Want a suggestion?  Then preserve the one jewl of anti-magickers, Tuluk, have mind benders constantly surveying the surrounding area, and every time a magicker steps into the grasslands, scrub, Gol Krathu in whole, have their head explode like a mellon (BOOM) Now that's a suggestion.

In all honesty, I'm tired of being -haunted- by magickers, wherever I go, I can't hunt, rp, anywhere outside the gates of Tuluk, and man honestly I can't even do it inside, without some magicker blowing up winds of swirling magic.  How can you expect me to crap my pants, every single time.  You might as well add a shit your pants social, stares in struck awe social, silent scream social, just because I'm getting tired of doing the emotes, over, and over, and over, and over.  Get my point?  I know some of you are.  It's not scary, it's stupid, want to scare me, quit letting people buy them by the dozen.

Sorcerors, still scare me, if they were permitted in the same rarity, and elementalist entirely removed, I would love this game a lot more.

But it's not going to happen, because mages are this imm or another's love child, they don't want to see their love child go, nope, they'd prefer to see them trump everything, without any regard to balance.  Argument comes up over and over again that this game should be balanced, counter argument is that it isn't, because this isn't a pk mud.  If this wasn't a pk mud, then why do we have sixty people rerolling every week, so many people picking martial classes over crafters and bards.  This mud is a pk mud, sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken.

Regardless, my opinion, as well as everyone else, is moot.  What is, has, and always will be decided before we get a chance to have input.  Take Arm 2 for example, the world "we're in the process of crafting as the game goes along"  I stop and wonder why six thousand rooms for environments we've had no say in, city states we didn't organize, and races we didn't mate to produce are already being added.  It makes me wonder, entirely too much, if we have any role in this at all.  You might contest, "Oh well they've had submissions, let us design the rooms, the equipment, bleh bleh bleh." They had submission for areas, and races they already had outlined.  They did not say "Players of armageddon one, based on the fact that *blank* with be blown up by *blank* Write us an area that resolves what this will look like in 20k years.  Whichs begs me to ask will the culmination of all of our efforts and rp be summed up in a two line statue in the center of some city "Battle was here two thousand years ago, people died, nothing else remains."  I'd like to think not.

I can overlook what misgivings I have about the classes, races, ansi, color -- for the rare chance at an emotional scene here, something particularly beautiful there.  I'd just like to think there were more, and we'd quit classifying things as they were not.  This game isn't a H/S? Tell me you haven't mob killed for three weeks getting your parry up. Not a PK mud? Why do people continue and persist to  (that just because this mud is "harsh") take a two hour newbie out, walk him until he's exhausted and pk him for his equipment, to further his education.  This mud is full of hypocrisies, and I see them all too often.  I myself, am perfectly content with what I am, what I do, and I make no attempts to hide, sugar coat, or delude the fact that I treat much of this game like a hack and slash.

I'm still ranting aren't I, oh well, sorry

Anyway, however pessimistic I may be, I really do enjoy the game, or I wouldn't be playing it.  I love the staff, the interaction they bring, the effort they put into the game, I wouldn't be here otherwise.  I'm not cracking on you magickers, some of you are the best rpers I've seen, in all honesty, I'm just tired of seeing you, anymore I get more enjoyment out of seeing half giants trying to imitate hulk, or newbie warriors trying to quote conan the barbarian.  Long live arm, but please, for the sake of god, kill the magickers, or give me a class that's just as rigged as they are, so I can kill them all.  We'd all be in your gratitude.  And don't tell me rangers or assassins are excellent witch hunters, they're not, based with the variety of overpowered skills the assortments have, you can never be fully prepared for everything viva la witchhunter guild, if we can't be rid of the witches.

[Majikal]

And don't tell me rangers or assassins are excellent witch hunters, they're not, based with the variety of overpowered skills the assortments have, you can never be fully prepared for everything viva la witchhunter guild.

In a world of sharp sticks and bone swords.. the guy with lightning in his fingertips is god.


I love the elementalists, I think stretching out the spell lists and dropping out two of the quasi-elements (drov/elkros) to return those spells to the rightful owners would add to the much needed scariness of mages. If a change could be made to elementalists as far as improving them I beleive slowing down the skill progression and spell level progression. Would even be glad to see the skill lists get stretched out a bit more so it's linear (Skill 1 branches skill 2, skill 2 branches skill 3, skill 3 branches skill 4) and so on.

[Tisiphone]

I think if every single player came to their elementalists with a deep, thoughtful approach to magick on Zalanthas, its social and political consequences, and exactly what having your very own eldritch powers might do to people, magickers of all types are beautiful concepts.

I think that until everyone does that, no coded solution will do anything mroe than weakly encourage that sort of behaviour.

[Doppelganger]

I feel elementalist do nothing to add to the flavor of the game.

There is no guild, race or any other coded feature that adds to the game by default, all they can do is to provide opportunity for players.

I much agree with you that Armageddon is rapidly degrading to very basics of DIKU games, screwing decades of development.
The way elementalists are revamped has contributed its share to degradation and elementalists is where the problem currently peaks, but they are not problem themselves.
Remove elementalists and issue will peak elsewhere, among HGs and templars or among muls and sorcerors or, god forbid, among human and dwarf warriors. The later pair has less of damaging potential, but they are unaffected by karma, thus they have nothing to lose.

I would understand the idea of removing classes and damaging property if we had tried everything and nothing could help, but we have tried nothing yet, neither stick nor bigger stick nor human sacrifices.

[My 2 sids]

Personally, I'd like to see them left in game.. but, maybe redefine their role.  I think OOCly there should be a push for opening up a some more "mundane" type of magicker PCs.

For instance, I see the magicker guild (spec. the legal status in 'nak) as an opprotunity for players who may want to make an independent crafter or a social PC who has the mind/soul searching of a half-elf. 

To do this, in game, there should be an uneasiness (but not total stigma) attached to interacting with a gemmed magicker.  Like the docs suggest, some elementalists should be able to find employment somewhat easily:  grubbers can get mounts/ protection from including a <kind of> magicker in their grubbing party; people who don't want to spend hundreads on water from the templarate could take their chances with buying water from X-type of magicker;  Merchant houses who may not want to flat out hire magickers maybe can buy their crafted items.

Again, uneasiness sure -- but not all out stigma  PLUS opprotunities/ reasons for any typical PC to interact with magickers.

[Southie]

I think if every single player came to their elementalists with a deep, thoughtful approach to magick on Zalanthas, its social and political consequences, and exactly what having your very own eldritch powers might do to people, magickers of all types are beautiful concepts.

I think that until everyone does that, no coded solution will do anything mroe than weakly encourage that sort of behaviour.