watch/scan/listen/guard changes

[FantasyWriter]

Scan could afford to be tweaked to make it less useless... in my experience, it mostly doesn't help much, and there's a lot of spamming involved if it's going to be effective.

I don't think it is useless, however I do believe that "training" it now, in any reasonable amount of time, will require just a small amount of twinkery (knowing where hidden things are, even though you can't see them).

[brytta.leofa]

Scan could afford to be tweaked to make it less useless... in my experience, it mostly doesn't help much, and there's a lot of spamming involved if it's going to be effective.

I don't think it is useless, however I do believe that "training" it now, in any reasonable amount of time, will require just a small amount of twinkery (knowing where hidden things are, even though you can't see them).

Or with a sneaky friend.  But the spamminess is actually gone now, right?

[FantasyWriter]

Scan could afford to be tweaked to make it less useless... in my experience, it mostly doesn't help much, and there's a lot of spamming involved if it's going to be effective.

I don't think it is useless, however I do believe that "training" it now, in any reasonable amount of time, will require just a small amount of twinkery (knowing where hidden things are, even though you can't see them).

Or with a sneaky friend. 

Hehe, coded hide and seek, never though of that one... now we know why 'rynth rat children are so good at what they do.

[Lizzie]

Scan could afford to be tweaked to make it less useless... in my experience, it mostly doesn't help much, and there's a lot of spamming involved if it's going to be effective.

I don't think it is useless, however I do believe that "training" it now, in any reasonable amount of time, will require just a small amount of twinkery (knowing where hidden things are, even though you can't see them).

Or with a sneaky friend.  But the spamminess is actually gone now, right?

Spaminess is increased exponentially now actually.

Pre-change: I didn't know if my scan was actually working, until/unless I saw something that the skill reveals.
Post-change: I KNOW it isn't working if I just stood up, and I KNOW it stopped working the second I sat down. So every time I stand up I will run "scan." Every single time. And - I am far less likely to sit down than I was before. That means I am less likely to answer people over the Way, because now I don't -just- have the Way drain to deal with when I'm standing up, I -also- have scan and listen drain, OR I have to lose scan just so I can sit down and not have that drain.

In the middle of the desert, when I'm a desert elf ranger, sitting down to rest my legs after a long run, there's no reason in the world why I am suddenly incapable of seeing a *IC* that I know is there, when I knew the *IC* was there before I sat down. Especially if that *IC* is my sister, or my best friend, or my lover, and we were running together, and suddenly I can't see him, even though he's sitting next to me, and I have the skill to see *IC* well enough to have seen *IC* from the moment we started our run until the moment I sat down? How exactly am I supposed to roleplay that out? Why should I have to?

[Morgenes]

Scan could afford to be tweaked to make it less useless... in my experience, it mostly doesn't help much, and there's a lot of spamming involved if it's going to be effective.

I don't think it is useless, however I do believe that "training" it now, in any reasonable amount of time, will require just a small amount of twinkery (knowing where hidden things are, even though you can't see them).

Or with a sneaky friend.  But the spamminess is actually gone now, right?

Spaminess is increased exponentially now actually.

Pre-change: I didn't know if my scan was actually working, until/unless I saw something that the skill reveals.
Post-change: I KNOW it isn't working if I just stood up, and I KNOW it stopped working the second I sat down. So every time I stand up I will run "scan." Every single time. And - I am far less likely to sit down than I was before. That means I am less likely to answer people over the Way, because now I don't -just- have the Way drain to deal with when I'm standing up, I -also- have scan and listen drain, OR I have to lose scan just so I can sit down and not have that drain.

In the middle of the desert, when I'm a desert elf ranger, sitting down to rest my legs after a long run, there's no reason in the world why I am suddenly incapable of seeing a *IC* that I know is there, when I knew the *IC* was there before I sat down. Especially if that *IC* is my sister, or my best friend, or my lover, and we were running together, and suddenly I can't see him, even though he's sitting next to me, and I have the skill to see *IC* well enough to have seen *IC* from the moment we started our run until the moment I sat down? How exactly am I supposed to roleplay that out? Why should I have to?

You could use 'watch' to keep your eye on them.

[brytta.leofa]

You could use 'watch' to keep your eye on them.

What about adding an automatic watchfulness boost vs. everyone in your follow tree?

Amos
  |    \
Malik Talia
  |
Jaks

Give all four characters here an increased watchfulness value against each other.

[Morgenes]

You could use 'watch' to keep your eye on them.

What about adding an automatic watchfulness boost vs. everyone in your follow tree?

Amos
  |    \
Malik Talia
  |
Jaks

Give all four characters here an increased watchfulness value against each other.

Could you go into further detail as to what you're expecting them to gain?  And talk about how this would affect people shadowing you?

[brytta.leofa]

You could use 'watch' to keep your eye on them.

What about adding an automatic watchfulness boost vs. everyone in your follow tree?

Amos
  |    \
Malik Talia
  |
Jaks

Give all four characters here an increased watchfulness value against each other.

Could you go into further detail as to what you're expecting them to gain?  And talk about how this would affect people shadowing you?

Malik and Talia follow Amos.  When Jaks begins following Malik, make him, effectively, start watching all three, and vice versa.  Everyone in the group is watching each other--maybe at a reduced level from full watch, but they shouldn't generally lose sight of each other. 

I think I would still allow intentional watching of someone outside the group, though that's slightly abusable.

Shadowing: the person shadowing might get a watch bonus vs. his victim, but not vice versa, and he needn't be paying especial attention to others in the group.  There's really no change necessary here, except if it needs detangling from "follow."  Probably should leave this to the watch command, or force the shadower to watch only his victim.

[Morgenes]

You could use 'watch' to keep your eye on them.

What about adding an automatic watchfulness boost vs. everyone in your follow tree?

Amos
  |    \
Malik Talia
  |
Jaks

Give all four characters here an increased watchfulness value against each other.

Could you go into further detail as to what you're expecting them to gain?  And talk about how this would affect people shadowing you?

Malik and Talia follow Amos.  When Jaks begins following Malik, make him, effectively, start watching all three, and vice versa.  Everyone in the group is watching each other--maybe at a reduced level from full watch, but they shouldn't generally lose sight of each other. 

I think I would still allow intentional watching of someone outside the group, though that's slightly abusable.

Shadowing: the person shadowing might get a watch bonus vs. his victim, but not vice versa, and he needn't be paying especial attention to others in the group.  There's really no change necessary here, except if it needs detangling from "follow."  Probably should leave this to the watch command, or force the shadower to watch only his victim.

Shadowing someone is the exact same as following them, except without the follow echo.  We don't keep track of the fact that you want to shadow them, so there's no way to differentiate the two.

[brytta.leofa]

Shadowing someone is the exact same as following them, except without the follow echo.  We don't keep track of the fact that you want to shadow them, so there's no way to differentiate the two.

...but you could.

[Lizzie]

Since it isn't a secret - invisible people happen. There. It's said. Now we can get on with the actual situation without beating around the bush...

Let's say I'm a mundane, normal, rangerly type, with excellent scan skill. I'm a desert elf, in a tribe that has mostly rangers and people who can be invisible. Rangers can also hide, don't forget - so I'm leading a group of 5 people, in addition to myself, on a raiding expedition. There's me, there's 2 hidden rangers, and there's three invisible people. They're all relatives, I see them with my uber scan skill, I know they're with me, and in fact, I invited them to be with me.

After awhile, it's time to relax and grab a bite to eat, rest our legs, share a bottle of wine. We take turns, because some of us have to remain on guard in case of trouble. Obviously the hidden people will become unhidden when they sit - makes sense, but then when they stand up again they hide behind that boulder over there to watch for trouble while it's my turn to sit. So I sit. Near the boulder, where I -could- notice the shadows of my 2 hiding ranger cousins. And the three invisible people are still right there in front of me, being no more invisible than they were before. And all of a sudden, I can't see any indication that ANY of these five people are with me. Sure Morg, I could watch one. So I'm watching one. What about the other four?

Sitting shouldn't toggle off scan. I just think it shouldn't, I haven't seen any arguements or discussion on this thread that would convince me otherwise. I'm all for a -reduction in skill- when you sit. But not to toggle it off.

[Morgenes]

As a staff, we consider scan to be moving around and actively looking for things out of the ordinary.  It isn't just craning your neck where you stand.  This is why you must be standing to start scanning. 

That said, I will agree that a reduction in skill based on position other than standing isn't a horrible idea, but in my mind that would have to be a severe penalty, especially for resting.

[Lizzie]

As a staff, we consider scan to be moving around and actively looking for things out of the ordinary.  It isn't just craning your neck where you stand.  This is why you must be standing to start scanning. 

That said, I will agree that a reduction in skill based on position other than standing isn't a horrible idea, but in my mind that would have to be a severe penalty, especially for resting.

I'm 150% behind you on that, Morg. Honest injun, I'm not asking that people should be capable of laying down in the middle of a crowded bar, during rush hour, while three brawls are going on, and be able to see a maxed-out sneaky thief slink in and hide behind the bar. I agree -completely- that this makes absolutely zero sense whatsoever. But I'm considering all the -other- times when a person has scan running and rather than the "intention" of what scan was created for, the "function" of scan. What it allows you to do, codedly.

So if that means I'd lay down and have my ability to see someone hiding drastically reduced, then that's fine! As long as I have -some- chance of seeing "a strange shadow" if that shadow is like - a newbie sneak who just got lucky that one time, and my scan skill is as good as the code provides the best scanner in the game. If I suck at scanning, my chances of noticing much past the end of my own nose while laying down should be pretty slim

If I'm sitting, I should be able to have a -chance- to see people who are either not so great at hiding, but managed to do so successfully, or invisible people who may or may not be good at being invisible, but have chosen for whatever reason, to only be "a little" invisible (the power level set low).

The -chance- to see being reduced somewhat when seated, and significantly when reclining, makes sense. It's just having zero chance at all that made no sense and really put the kabosh on playability for rangerly and merchantly types, who rely on their outstanding perception for their primary defense, IMO.

I really appreciate your considering my rant, Morgenes. I don't get too grumpy about much when it comes to code changes, even the ones I don't really like. But this one thing - dunno why but it was a real thorn in my side.

[Morgenes]

Next reboot this will be in.

[Lizzie]

Even my mammaries manage to mist with merriment over the magnanimousness that is Morgenes.

[Gunnerblaster]

Next reboot this will be in.

I've seen about three other posts with just this simple phrase, after you having to listen to our insistent nagging.

Your truly amazing, man.

[Melody]

Before the change, with near maxed listen I can catch 90% of the conversation.

After the change, I can catch about 2/3 of the conversation at most.

I am not sure if it is because my character is too dumb, but when someone is particularly leaning over the table, not able to hear your friend calling your name is a bit awkward. And you can't stand at some tables. I still like the change though!

I do. I do~

[KIA]

Very high listen seems to work only 1/8 times for me perhaps at most 1/6 ...

Perhaps it needs to be tweaked a bit in favor of listeners, this seems a stiff penalty.

Also, who not add some syntax, like watch. So I could 'listen bar' to focus my listening on the nearby patrons at a bar, or 'listen table' or even 'listen north'. Perhaps even 'listen elf' would be nice, to target specifically what they say or try to whisper.

Alternatively, listening just needs to be slightly easier for someone with a high skill.

KIA

[UnderSeven]

I've noticed this too, I've tried listen while sitting, standing, watching the person I'm listening too.. I catch almost nothing EXCEPT when I toggle the skill I catch like the first things said almost every time. 

I suspect this is a bug.  But I hope the but is also that we're catching like nothing because if the stun loss is any indication my char is very good at listen and still can't hear a damned thing.  Literally.

[KIA]

When we're watching someone, can we see who they're watching, or when they start watching someone else?

[Clearsighted]

Listen's success rates need a definite tweaking.

As do I think, the rate and manner at which scan is learned.

[Morgenes]

Listen's success rates need a definite tweaking.

Yes, this is bugged, sorry, we'll fix it tomorrow.

As do I think, the rate and manner at which scan is learned.

I don't think so.

[Clearsighted]

Listen's success rates need a definite tweaking.

Yes, this is bugged, sorry, we'll fix it tomorrow.

As do I think, the rate and manner at which scan is learned.

I don't think so.

Well. I was thinking along the lines at the time of people knowing where to find hidden creatures (from past PCs) having a vastly easier time raising it, then someone starting fresh. But I guess it probably isn't worth an actual overhaul.

[Morgenes]

Listen's success rates need a definite tweaking.

Yes, this is bugged, sorry, we'll fix it tomorrow.

As do I think, the rate and manner at which scan is learned.

I don't think so.

You can also find someone in game that can help you.

Well. I was thinking along the lines at the time of people knowing where to find hidden creatures (from past PCs) having a vastly easier time raising it, then someone starting fresh. But I guess it probably isn't worth an actual overhaul.

[Dalmeth]

I haven't been able to play much, but the reduced costs for scan and listen border on ridiculous, even at high levels.  Couldn't we up them both to around 5 stun loss so I actually get the impression my character is exerting himself?