Alternatives to clan cooks

[a strange shadow]

The money could go toward politics. Because politics sometimes require an assload of money.

Or there aren't enough PCs with enough playtime to reflect what "should" be in the clan.

Striving for further realism reflected in the clan is great, and I'm sure a middle-ground can be found.

If I play an Agent, I don't want to have to spend all of my time going to ridiculous lengths spamcrafting, selling, and running out into a warzone to find craftable materials so I can make enough to feed 10 pcs - instead of a heavier focus on striking deals with other Houses, politicking, and enjoying character development - just because my one crafter only plays 5 hours a week and my "hunters" are all assassins and warriors.

I'm surprised staggerlee hasn't put his head through a brick wall yet.

[Nyr]

There are clans who get neither free food and water, there are clans who get unlimited food and water.  This IS NOT equality of resources.  To me it seems that the only reason that some can, and some can't, is that those who can't have weaker leadership.

Amongst ourselves (the staff), we have been discussing various ideas for tweaking/improving the in-game experience of clan cooks.  There are a handful of advantages and disadvantages to the current system, from an IC and OOC perspective.  Having discussed possible alternatives for a while now, we've come up with a few.

We'd like to know which of these alternatives you prefer, or if you have your own ideas.

It's worth noting that this does not reflect on cooks already in place which serve the nobility, or high-ranking merchant family members.  Mainly we're talking about the grunts of the house, low-level employees and so on.

This would include partisans, initial hires, aides, servants, recruits, etc., on up to the point where they become mid-level employees (are relatively trustworthy, have been promoted, etc.).  This has nothing to do with quality of leadership and everything to do with finding a middle ground between realism versus playability, specifically with the issue of clan cooks, as stated in the initial post.

[FantasyWriter]

This has nothing to do with quality of leadership and everything to do with finding a middle ground between realism versus playability, specifically with the issue of clan cooks, as stated in the initial post.

The point I made was in response the the belief that some clans could not function or function in the way the clan is suppose to without clan cooks accessible to lower level employees.  If low level employees do not have food, it is because someone is not doing their job (hunting gathering food/buying food).  If it is not the leaders direct responsibility to supply food, it is still their responsibility to make sure the one who IS responsible for it is doing their job.

My point was made to say this: Any clan, with good leadership, will find a way to feed themselves without an unlimited supply loading up automatically.

[Nyr]

Ah, I see what you mean.  I was confused by the criticism of clan leaders.

[FantasyWriter]

Ah, I see what you mean.  I was confused by the criticism of clan leaders.

No, fortunately I have always been fortunate enough to join clans that had a wonderful and strong leader PC at the time.

I believe my statements did need that clarification, though.

[Lizzie]

If low level employees do not have food, it is because someone is not doing their job (hunting gathering food/buying food).

And this I think is what some people take issue with, FW. This is ONE reason why low level employees don't have food. Here's some other reasons:

1. The leader hasn't met the person responsible for getting the food yet, because the leader isn't in that city, and doesn't know ICly that this person was even hired, let alone works for them.

2. The leader is supposedly there, but never logs in, and therefore isn't available ICly to direct the employee on what to do.

3. The leader left the employee with strict orders to NOT go out alone, but unfortunately he/she is the only PC hunter in the clan, in that area, and not going alone, means not going at all.

4. The PC hunter is the only one in the clan, and hunts intelligently, and knows his limits, and knows he is a new hunter who can barely hold a blade, let alone use it, and therefore won't go hunting alone, and unfortunately is the only PC hunter in the clan, in that area.

5. The rest of the crew said "I'll be back in a day" - and 2 weeks later is still gone, somewhere else.

6. The only crew you have, consists of everything -except- people with the skinning skill, and so they go running out killing things and not bringing back food.

7. You HAVE no crew, and are the only PC in your clan, in the area, and you aren't a hunter.

So you see..there are many MANY reasons why a person might not have food. And most of them have nothing to do with "not doing your job." Not being allowed to do your job, not having the coded skill to do your job, and it not -being- your job, fit several of those reasons.

[Salt Merchant]

Nobody (okay almost nobody) has suggested removing hunger code or making it easier for people without the support of a huge organizations and the resources such organizations have with which to care for their members.  

That is exactly what an unlimited supply of food and water does.

No, it doesn't. There are plenty of opportunities to get caught without food or water when travelling.

[FantasyWriter]

1. The leader hasn't met the person responsible for getting the food yet, because the leader isn't in that city, and doesn't know ICly that this person was even hired, let alone works for them.

If the have the responsibility of procuring food, then they HAVE met with the leader PC or and IMM animated leader NPC, and been set up with the banker flag so that they can do their job.  It is ICly impossible for someone to have this responsibility without it being set up by a leader.

2. The leader is supposedly there, but never logs in, and therefore isn't available ICly to direct the employee on what to do.

If they have been set up as quartermaster by the leader PC (see #1) they don't have to be told to do their job in order to do it.

3. The leader left the employee with strict orders to NOT go out alone, but unfortunately he/she is the only PC hunter in the clan, in that area, and not going alone, means not going at all.

The quartermaster or leader has already made sure there is food available inside the walls, so they have no need to go out JUST to get food an water.  That has nothing to do with the the issue of a clan cook, please start a new thread for this issue.

4. The PC hunter is the only one in the clan, and hunts intelligently, and knows his limits, and knows he is a new hunter who can barely hold a blade, let alone use it, and therefore won't go hunting alone, and unfortunately is the only PC hunter in the clan, in that area.

Make friend IC to go hunting with like indys do.  Again, this has nothing to do with clan cooks, since the food bins have been filled by the quartermaster or leader.

5. The rest of the crew said "I'll be back in a day" - and 2 weeks later is still gone, somewhere else.

What does this have to do with the issue of clan cooks?

6. The only crew you have, consists of everything -except- people with the skinning skill, and so they go running out killing things and not bringing back food.

Address the issue to the clan IMMS and I am sure they would be more than hapy to set a couple of PCs up with the skinning skill.

7. You HAVE no crew, and are the only PC in your clan, in the area, and you aren't a hunter.

Get the food out of the food bin that was placed there by the quartermaster or leader.
If you are the ONLY member of your clan and are incapable of getting food on your own, speak with your clan imm about the issue or store.

[FantasyWriter]

Nobody (okay almost nobody) has suggested removing hunger code or making it easier for people without the support of a huge organizations and the resources such organizations have with which to care for their members.  

That is exactly what an unlimited supply of food and water does.

No, it doesn't. There are plenty of opportunities to get caught without food or water when travelling.

If it has to do with food in the wild, then it has nothing to do with NPC clan cooks, does it?
Your leader PC or quartermaster is responsible for providing food (even for clans with NPC cooks) for outdoor excursions.
If your clan cannot ICly provide you with food and water, rebel and find one who can.  Your character wouldn't put up with starving.  They would find someone who COULD feed them.

[Yam]

I think you misunderstood the intent of that post.

[Salt Merchant]

If low level employees do not have food, it is because someone is not doing their job (hunting gathering food/buying food).  If it is not the leaders direct responsibility to supply food, it is still their responsibility to make sure the one who IS responsible for it is doing their job.

This just isn't going to work. I don't believe it's fair to expect PCs to function like automatons, hunting daily to keep others fed. When things get too rigid like this, players burn out and leave. It's hard enough to be a PC leader without additional troubles like this too.

A couple of other points need to be made too:

1. You don't only need good hunters, you need a good cook. Otherwise most of what is brought in will be spoiled (rather unreasonably) in the cooking fire.
2. Hunting to feed a city of half a million people is ridiculous. More agricultural products should be put into the game and at a lower cost than meats if clans are going to have to supply their PC members with food.
3. What about the NPC clan members? Won't it be rather foolish to have a few PCs starving when all the NPCs of the clan stand around in full health? Where are the hunting parties to support the NPC members?

[FantasyWriter]

1. You don't only need good hunters, you need a good cook. Otherwise most of what is brought in will be spoiled (rather unreasonably) in the cooking fire.

As somone suggested earlier:

>offer flank
The pudgy, worn-eyed man says to you, in sirihish:
   "Hmmm. I can make a tender flank of carru from that."

>sell flank
The pudgy, worn-eyed man says to you, in sirihish:
   "Thanks."
The pudgy, worn-eyed man sets a bloody flank of meat on a bone grill.

(crafting delay)

The pudgy, worn-eyed man puts a grilled flank of carru meat into a wooden food bin.

In this example, the NPC cook still helps out, but doesn't do things for free.

2. Hunting to feed a city of half a million people is ridiculous.

Virtual hunters, and virtual farms feed virtual characters.

3. What about the NPC clan members? Won't it be rather foolish to have a few PCs starving when all the NPCs of the clan stand around in full health? Where are the hunting parties to support the NPC members?

The NPCs food comes from the VNPC hunters and VNPC farms.
If good leaders and a quartermaster are in place, like they are in clans without unlimitedly supplied cooks, they have filled the food bins like all the great merchant houses, desert elf tribes, tribal humans, uncoded merchant houses, uncoded merc groups, indies do.

[staggerlee]

I'm surprised staggerlee hasn't put his head through a brick wall yet.

I'm working on it!
Actually I'm about done, repeating the same argument over and over again isn't going anywhere and nobody has actually addressed the point anyway.

I also really don't like clan leader bashing.  It's an absurdly hard job that uses skills and time people could probably employ to good effect in real life. I love those poor martyrs that sign up for the job.

[FantasyWriter]

I'm surprised staggerlee hasn't put his head through a brick wall yet.

I'm working on it!
Actually I'm about done, repeating the same argument over and over again isn't going anywhere and nobody has actually addressed the point anyway.

I also really don't like clan leader bashing.  It's an absurdly hard job that uses skills and time people could probably employ to good effect in real life. I love those poor martyrs that sign up for the job.

I have not bashed any clan leaders.  Read mine and Nyr's posts from above.
Ever clan I have ever been in functions perfectly well without a clan cook.  I have never been in a clan that myself or my characters believe had a bad leader.
Leading a clan IS HARD WORK.  It takes someone who really cares about the came, and had the time to dedicate to it.
No one has bashed leaders here.

Many people have addressed the OP, albeit with different solutions to and opinions of the situation.

[Salt Merchant]

1. You don't only need good hunters, you need a good cook. Otherwise most of what is brought in will be spoiled (rather unreasonably) in the cooking fire.

As somone suggested earlier:

>offer flank
The pudgy, worn-eyed man says to you, in sirihish:
   "Hmmm. I can make a tender flank of carru from that."

>sell flank
The pudgy, worn-eyed man says to you, in sirihish:
   "Thanks."
The pudgy, worn-eyed man sets a bloody flank of meat on a bone grill.

(crafting delay)

The pudgy, worn-eyed man puts a grilled flank of carru meat into a wooden food bin.

Okay, that might work to solve the cooking problem.

2. Hunting to feed a city of half a million people is ridiculous.

Virtual hunters, and virtual farms feed virtual characters.

You're skipping the fundamental point here, which is that in an agricultural society, a city-based clan shouldn't have to hunt! And think about what would happen if even a small portion of a large, fixed population tried: the total extermination of anything edible within any remotely workable distance of the city!

3. What about the NPC clan members? Won't it be rather foolish to have a few PCs starving when all the NPCs of the clan stand around in full health? Where are the hunting parties to support the NPC members?

The NPCs food comes from the VNPC hunters and VNPC farms.

So they just have a completely independent system, and stand around ignoring members of their own clan just because they have the magical PC aura? Absurd.

You also ignored my points about the tedium, hunter burnout and leader burnout with the added bureaucracy.

[Salt Merchant]

(deleted... trying to post + unstable network = no fun)

[Desertman]

I keep seeing this arguement from several people...

"If I am the only hunter in the House at the time, I dont want to go outside and get killed trying to get food to feed myself and others."

My first question when hiring a hunter usually is...

"Can you take care of -yourself-?"

If the answer is no...

Fuck that guy, I dont want to hire him. If he cant take care of himself, I surely dont want to pay him to freeload off my House. He surely isnt going to be an asset to helping anyone else, he cant even help himself.

Maybe I should be more "newbie friendly".

I dont know.

[FantasyWriter]

So they just have a completely independent system, and stand around ignoring members of their own clan just because they have the magical PC aura? Absurd.

No, the NPC/VNPC percentage of the clan pulls their weight, the PC percentage pulls theirs.

You also ignored my points about the tedium, hunter burnout and leader burnout with the added bureaucracy.

HAHA. No, MOST CLANS MANAGE WITHOUT NPC COOKS. (which means their leaders are not over burdened, or else they wouldn't manage) Same for the hunters.

If you feel like you are incapable of pulling the load of a leader, stay away from sponsored roles.  There are people that actually enjoy the responsibility of making a difference in the game world in that way, and do not see it as a burden.  

[Nyr]

HAHA. No, MOST CLANS MANAGE WITHOUT NPC COOKS. (which means their leaders are not over burdened, or else they wouldn't manage) Same for the hunters.

This is untrue.  Almost all clans function with clan cooks.

[Malken]

Fuck that guy, I dont want to hire him. If he cant take care of himself, I surely dont want to pay him to freeload off my House. He surely isnt going to be an asset to helping anyone else, he cant even help himself.

Maybe I should be more "newbie friendly".

I dont know.

Many swabbies actually join a clan t' get trainin', an' a squadron o' swabbies t' hang ou' wi'. Th' pay really sucks, most o' th' time, an' if 't wasn`t fer th' "free" food, trainin' an' others t' go ou' huntin' wi', then
ye'd be better off as an independant, BY FAR.

If thar's nay one else fer ye t' hunt wi', an' ye take away th' NPC cooks, I think that clans will actually be e'en less popular.

If ye're already good at what ye're doin', why would ye want t' join, say, Kadius? Ye're probably already makin' a lot more than they can pay ye.

[FantasyWriter]

HAHA. No, MOST CLANS MANAGE WITHOUT NPC COOKS. (which means their leaders are not over burdened, or else they wouldn't manage) Same for the hunters.

This is untrue.  Almost all clans function with clan cooks.

Sorry, clan cooks that AREN'T accessible to all PCs. (free food cooks)

[staggerlee]

It's not really free food when it's basically your entire wage as a recruit starting out in a lot of organizations.
If you want to remove the free food and put in regular pay cheques I guess that's okay, but they'd have to be pretty damn big pay cheques to keep people fed.  Food is expensive.
Also, FW a lot of clans have restrictions on  who can leave the city and when.

[Nyr]

HAHA. No, MOST CLANS MANAGE WITHOUT NPC COOKS. (which means their leaders are not over burdened, or else they wouldn't manage) Same for the hunters.

This is untrue.  Almost all clans function with clan cooks.

Sorry, clan cooks that AREN'T accessible to all PCs. (free food cooks)

Most clans function with clan cooks for lower level/entry employees.
If you support removing them entirely, that's an alternative proposed by the poll, but be informed that that option is available presently for the majority of clans AND for the majority of PCs in them.

[Lizzie]

I'm thinking FW is basing his opinion on incorrect information. Perhaps if his knowledge wasn't quite so limited (which apparently it is), his opinion would be different.

And yeah for Desertman, if I am already a seasoned hunter, I am LESS likely to be interested in joining a GMH clan that doesn't have a coded clan cook and renewable water source and stable. Those are like - the three biggies that independents can't get, that draws them to coded clans. Cause indendents who are -already- good at what they're doing, don't need anything that the GMHs can offer.

Food: Already good at getting my own, and cooking it.
Water: Plenty of places to get water free if you're already good at it, no thanks.
Stable fees: Dood. I'm a *skilled* independent hunter. 20 sid stable fees are the least of my worries.
Salary: Uh, I get more sids as a *skilled* independent hunter in 3 game days, than you are willing to pay me in a game month.

That is why it's so hard for a GMH to -find- already skilled seasoned knowledgeable hunters. Because they're already doing better than what the GMH can offer. They join for the comeraderie, and they join because they're not good enough to be independent. And you're saying if you're not good enough to be independent (that is, take care of yourself, by yourself), then you aren't willing to hire them.

Has nothing to do with being a new player. It has to do with being a new *character.* When you just rolled up your character, you SUCK. Your skills SUCK. You aren't worth shit. Yet. Join a clan, GET good, and you will be an enormous contribution to your clan and worth more than your weight in copper. Maybe Desertman should consider not being a leader then, if that is his attitude toward hiring new characters.

And this, coming from someone who brags about how much he loves the Byn and playing leader roles? That's a damn shame.

[FantasyWriter]

Clans with cooks accecable to everyone.

[Removed a list of clans due to IC information and specifics. -Nyr]

Are my numbers off that bad?