A discussion of stats.

[manonfire]

Crappy stats are completely avoidable.

[Greve]

.

[Barzalene]

A lot of people aren't saying that they don't care. They're saying we actively prefer the random stats. We don't want homogeneous buffness; we enjoy or are willing to deal with the challenge of bad stats. I don't think ti has to be reworked immediately. I hope it is not.

[X-D]

A lot of people aren't saying that they don't care. They're saying we actively prefer the random stats. We don't want homogeneous buffness; we enjoy or are willing to deal with the challenge of bad stats. I don't think it has to be reworked immediately. I hope it is not.

QFT

In real life we all roll on the semi-random stat table of genetics.

[Lizzie]

A lot of people aren't saying that they don't care. They're saying we actively prefer the random stats. We don't want homogeneous buffness; we enjoy or are willing to deal with the challenge of bad stats. I don't think it has to be reworked immediately. I hope it is not.

QFT

In real life we all roll on the semi-random stat table of genetics.

In real life you don't have to be rich to get room service, or take a bath, and you don't have to ride a horse to school.

Real life is irrelevant. "Reasonable viability" is of primary concern, to me, when it comes to stats. By that, I mean, what is it -reasonable- to expect that my character is capable of? Not what it the best that I want them to do - but what is a reasonable expectation?

It is a reasonable expectation that my mundane, unimportant, non-sponsored ranger/weaponsmith PC have *enough* strength and agility to hold some commonly made and available bow, and use it. They don't have to be very strong...they don't need uber agility. But if my hunter has to special order a 1000-sid bow and wait a game-year for it to be made, just because she can't find a single bow in the market over the course of 2 RL weeks that "seems just right"...then that is not a "reasonable expectation."

If I want some day, for my merchant_guild PC to become a master merchant, and she is so weak that she can't hold one log, or 2 planks of wood, or more than one blocky piece of stone...or whatever else is necessary to make certain things that constitute "mastery" in a skill...then she is unviable.

If my magicker's wisdom is SO bad that it takes her 20 minutes to regen enough mana to cast a single spell, and even then she can only cast one because she has less than "x" mana.... then she isn't gonna be much of a magicker, and the point of making her a magick guild kind of ends up pointless.

Stats -can- be very important. They aren't always important, and sometimes they don't matter at all. But if you want your character to actually USE the skills their guild and subguild came with, then yeah they're pretty important.

Fortunately, the random roll isn't as random as it seems. There are bonuses and priorities placed automatically depending on what race/guild you pick. UNfortunately, there's no guarantee that the highest score, placed by your bonuses and automatic priorities, will be good enough to actually use the skills that come with your guild. So what I'd like to see, is whatever bonuses you get, will give that auto-picked stat something better than "above average." It would be nothing less than good. The next stat in line could be nothing less than average. The next in line could be nothing less than below average..

But the "random" part would allow any of them to be -better- than those minimums. So you could still get an AI in all 4 (theoretically) - you just won't ever get *less* than Good, Average, Below Average, and Poor, in the order according to the un-picked, computer-generated bonuses and priorities according to your race and guild selection.

[AmandaGreathouse]

In real life you don't have to be rich to get room service, or take a bath, and you don't have to ride a horse to school.

Real life is irrelevant. "Reasonable viability" is of primary concern, to me, when it comes to stats. By that, I mean, what is it -reasonable- to expect that my character is capable of? Not what it the best that I want them to do - but what is a reasonable expectation?

It is a reasonable expectation that my mundane, unimportant, non-sponsored ranger/weaponsmith PC have *enough* strength and agility to hold some commonly made and available bow, and use it. They don't have to be very strong...they don't need uber agility. But if my hunter has to special order a 1000-sid bow and wait a game-year for it to be made, just because she can't find a single bow in the market over the course of 2 RL weeks that "seems just right"...then that is not a "reasonable expectation."

If I want some day, for my merchant_guild PC to become a master merchant, and she is so weak that she can't hold one log, or 2 planks of wood, or more than one blocky piece of stone...or whatever else is necessary to make certain things that constitute "mastery" in a skill...then she is unviable.

If my magicker's wisdom is SO bad that it takes her 20 minutes to regen enough mana to cast a single spell, and even then she can only cast one because she has less than "x" mana.... then she isn't gonna be much of a magicker, and the point of making her a magick guild kind of ends up pointless.

Stats -can- be very important. They aren't always important, and sometimes they don't matter at all. But if you want your character to actually USE the skills their guild and subguild came with, then yeah they're pretty important.

Fortunately, the random roll isn't as random as it seems. There are bonuses and priorities placed automatically depending on what race/guild you pick. UNfortunately, there's no guarantee that the highest score, placed by your bonuses and automatic priorities, will be good enough to actually use the skills that come with your guild. So what I'd like to see, is whatever bonuses you get, will give that auto-picked stat something better than "above average." It would be nothing less than good. The next stat in line could be nothing less than average. The next in line could be nothing less than below average..

But the "random" part would allow any of them to be -better- than those minimums. So you could still get an AI in all 4 (theoretically) - you just won't ever get *less* than Good, Average, Below Average, and Poor, in the order according to the un-picked, computer-generated bonuses and priorities according to your race and guild selection.

This one exactly, and I have stored for having a crafter that was unable to hold all the items to craft with. I wouldn't suicide over it, but shit, that roll kinda defeated her main purpose, because, well, how the fuck was she supposed to survive?

[jhunter]

The staff have been known to make adjustments in those cases. Which are usually rare from my experience. I love the random factor about stat rolls. I would have been fine if stat ordering hadn't been added but it was and I'm fine with that since there is still the random factor involved. I would absolutely -hate- to see that go away.
Bad stats can be dealt with several ways, you can make adjustments to the pc, get staff aid in making actual stat adjustments, deal with it IC (for some stats through roleplay of working out, etc and logging to email to staff).
I believe str preventing you from using a bow isn't any issue any longer, btw. You just use more stamina when shooting the bow the lower str you have.

Low wis with a magicker is a problem....but only if you're stupid enough not to make that a priority.

That's what the priority system is for people, unless you honestly don't care, use it and stopping whining because you can't pick and choose your stats.

If any change were made to add the ability to pick your stats or spend points for them, I think that it should limit how high you can get in any one stat. You might be able to have a higher average picking them that way, but you'll never be able to have that random chance of being well above the bar.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

The only time I've gotten really crappy stats was this one time I saw I had medium stats with a low one, and decided to try a reroll.  I could have lived with the medium-low stats.  Instead, I got shafted, and I felt that was perhaps my due   

But it was cool, because he didn't last long anyway.  Not due to death, or crappy stats, but because I wandered off to take a different role.  One I would have taken regardless of his stats.

[X-D]

I've never had that problem Amanda.

And Lizzie, You have never had a Half-giant mage have you?

I once had a HG rukkian, Some of you might even remember Bosh...and with 1 mana over the min needed to cast a spell he became a rather effective mage in a rather short time.

In almost every arguement people have given saying they have had this or that problem, it has been their own fault.

And now we have stat ordering. I doubt VERY much you could even possibly end up with a PC who would not be viable to become a master merchant if you took say, Human, adult age, and ordered the stats str/wis/agi/end.

Your ranger cannot pull a willow bow, Stop making them 17...Same for that warrior who has to wear sandcloth because even leather armor weighs him down too much.

Stats in arm are only barely random even if you don't order your stats. It is a RARE day that I make a PC and I do not get nearly exactly the stats I expect to get...and by rare I mean it has happened 2 times in over 30 PCs, and I don't even order the stats.

Fortunately, the random roll isn't as random as it seems. There are bonuses and priorities placed automatically depending on what race/guild you pick. UNfortunately, there's no guarantee that the highest score, placed by your bonuses and automatic priorities, will be good enough to actually use the skills that come with your guild. So what I'd like to see, is whatever bonuses you get, will give that auto-picked stat something better than "above average." It would be nothing less than good. The next stat in line could be nothing less than average. The next in line could be nothing less than below average..

That is a good idea though.

[Salt Merchant]

Crappy stats are completely avoidable.

Stats in arm are only barely random even if you don't order your stats. It is a RARE day that I make a PC and I do not get nearly exactly the stats I expect to get...and by rare I mean it has happened 2 times in over 30 PCs, and I don't even order the stats.

Fortunately, the random roll isn't as random as it seems. There are bonuses and priorities placed automatically depending on what race/guild you pick.

It sounds like some people have made such a detailed study of this that they've constructed an actual table of stat allotments. Maybe as a collaborative effort? Or maybe it's just the benefit of having so many characters die that one creates so many that one finds this information out. Or maybe there are just that many staff and ex-staff characters in the game.

I don't know what wonderful tricks you've learned, but I don't like the fact that it can be reduced to a numbers game like this. As OOC knowledge, it can be used to gain an in-game advantage over players that plug along not using the tricks and getting average<->good stats nearly every time.

[staggerlee]

It's all pretty straight forward.
You have a role in mind for a character. You then make the character, choosing the following things accordingly:
-height/weight
-age
-race
-class
-order of stats

You then play the role.  I have no idea exactly how the code works, but if you do all of that and still can't play the role you had in mind (due to stats) then you're probably doing something wrong.

[mansa]

Crappy stats are completely avoidable.

Stats in arm are only barely random even if you don't order your stats. It is a RARE day that I make a PC and I do not get nearly exactly the stats I expect to get...and by rare I mean it has happened 2 times in over 30 PCs, and I don't even order the stats.

Fortunately, the random roll isn't as random as it seems. There are bonuses and priorities placed automatically depending on what race/guild you pick.

It sounds like some people have made such a detailed study of this that they've constructed an actual table of stat allotments. Maybe as a collaborative effort? Or maybe it's just the benefit of having so many characters die that one creates so many that one finds this information out. Or maybe there are just that many staff and ex-staff characters in the game.

I don't know what wonderful tricks you've learned, but I don't like the fact that it can be reduced to a numbers game like this. As OOC knowledge, it can be used to gain an in-game advantage over players that plug along not using the tricks and getting average<->good stats nearly every time.

My table of stats:

Characters age 23 and under - Terrible stats
Characters age 55 and older - Terrible stats.

Once you realize this, you learn to not expect good stats, and just flow with it.  Your expectations are too high.
Luckily, stats will increase now, so that's fantastic!

[Lizzie]

I usually let the game do the stat ordering randomly, because I can't be bothered doing the research to figure out exactly which stat needs to be the priority to make the "most" viable "whatever" that I want. I trust the game to do whatever is appropriate, and feel confident enough that the reroll command will work if needed.

As for tables and spreadsheets, no I don't have any inside info, I've never been staff, and I don't have any friends with the code. I got the information from the help files on races, which very specifically instruct the reader which races get which bonuses. I have also gleaned hints from the various main guild helpfiles that -imply- certain bonuses will occur (such as - a warrior is likely to have better innate physical strength, than he is to have better innate agility, when compared to a ranger of the same race, height, age, and weight).

In addition there was some talk about stat changes in the past on the GDB, and the imms mentioned that guild played some part in the stat generation process.

Just because someone knows stuff, doesn't necessarily mean they have inside info, or IC info, or have been typing up spreadsheets. It -could- simply mean they have taken extra time to read the docs.

[Gimfalisette]

Luckily, stats will increase now, so that's fantastic!

I just had my first experience with this and it's sooooooooooooo awesome.

[X-D]

Tables, spreadsheets? I don't even map...Heh. But I do read the docs.

As Lizzie pointed out, everything can be found there.

But basicly the Mansa stat system works, least for humans.

From the docs.

As citizens of Zalanthas gain years of existence, their bodies begin to change to conform to their age. Generally, a person will grow stronger and tougher from adolescence until they hit their prime, gradually increasing their stamina and endurance. After this peak, they will begin to lose that strength and health slowly. Wisdom nearly peaks early in life and increases slowly until death, and agility peaks in adolescence and slowly decreases into old age.

That tells you everything you need to know to get at least better then ave stats every time.


So there is my inside information, grafts and logs, located at http://www.armageddon.org/help/index_frames.html

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Bwahaha.

[Barzalene]

I'm not saying if you're a good player you'll tough it out.
I'm saying if your stats are really unplayable, you can write to the imms, or store, and for the most part try to make concepts that are playable without excellent stats.
Personally, I never really understood why storing the occasional pc you really hated and who wasn't involved in things was so awful,  but I'm willing to accept it is not allowed.
I do think that if you need every pc to have decent stats you might want to examine that. I don't agree. And yes Yam, I know I'm a lousy human being and a terrible elitist for saying so, but I'm kind to my mother, so I'm not irredeemable.

[Lizzie]

Yeah I'm not so concerned with "decent" stats - just playable, serviceable. If I'm playing a h-g with "below average" strength, I think I'll be able to manage somehow. Especially if he makes up for it with AI wisdom - which I would play as a h-g who is as bright as a h-g can get - that doesn't mean he's as smart as a human...but definitely smarter than the average bear

If I'm playing a ranger with "above average" agility, I'll be happy...even if his endurance is only "average." If I have a desert elf with "poor strength" though, I'll probably reroll. Cause a desert elf's strength already is weak...and it might be a convenient thing to at least be capable of carrying around a tent once in awhile, and not have to lose the waterskin and three pieces of meat in the process.

So really it depends on what I'm trying to accomplish with the character, combined with his race, combined with his actual coded skillset. If I just want my character to have a fair chance at survival, then a couple of averages and a couple of above averages is fine, and I'm -probably- not going to reroll. That's probably also why I don't bother prioritizing. I really just want survivability, and so far I've been satisfied with my initial roll, or using the "reroll self" option.

[Salt Merchant]

I got the information from the help files on races, which very specifically instruct the reader which races get which bonuses.

Yes, they do. Bonuses relative to other races. But it's still the same average<->good within the race. At least for me.

The manipulations come for age, weight, height and who knows what other aspects, it appears, and we're always having people post about what marvellous stats some of their characters have had (which I read to mean exceptionally good and above) and how they never get crappy stats (below average or poor). I don't think there's any documentation about how to do that, other than recommending that characters begin at the middle of their age ranges (already verging on middle-age, in other words). From how young most characters are, it seems to me that most people don't do this.

I still play happily with my mostly average characters, but I do feel a twinge of annoyance now and then when people start bragging about this subject.

[Mood]

But it was cool, because he didn't last long anyway.  Not due to death, or crappy stats, but because I wandered off to take a different role.  One I would have taken regardless of his stats.

[manonfire]

Crappy stats are completely avoidable.

Stats in arm are only barely random even if you don't order your stats. It is a RARE day that I make a PC and I do not get nearly exactly the stats I expect to get...and by rare I mean it has happened 2 times in over 30 PCs, and I don't even order the stats.

Fortunately, the random roll isn't as random as it seems. There are bonuses and priorities placed automatically depending on what race/guild you pick.

It sounds like some people have made such a detailed study of this that they've constructed an actual table of stat allotments. Maybe as a collaborative effort? Or maybe it's just the benefit of having so many characters die that one creates so many that one finds this information out. Or maybe there are just that many staff and ex-staff characters in the game.

I don't know what wonderful tricks you've learned, but I don't like the fact that it can be reduced to a numbers game like this. As OOC knowledge, it can be used to gain an in-game advantage over players that plug along not using the tricks and getting average<->good stats nearly every time.

Sorry.

[Clearsighted]

Crappy stats are completely avoidable.

Stats in arm are only barely random even if you don't order your stats. It is a RARE day that I make a PC and I do not get nearly exactly the stats I expect to get...and by rare I mean it has happened 2 times in over 30 PCs, and I don't even order the stats.

Fortunately, the random roll isn't as random as it seems. There are bonuses and priorities placed automatically depending on what race/guild you pick.

It sounds like some people have made such a detailed study of this that they've constructed an actual table of stat allotments. Maybe as a collaborative effort? Or maybe it's just the benefit of having so many characters die that one creates so many that one finds this information out. Or maybe there are just that many staff and ex-staff characters in the game.

I don't know what wonderful tricks you've learned, but I don't like the fact that it can be reduced to a numbers game like this. As OOC knowledge, it can be used to gain an in-game advantage over players that plug along not using the tricks and getting average<->good stats nearly every time.

My table of stats:

Characters age 23 and under - Terrible stats
Characters age 55 and older - Terrible stats.

Once you realize this, you learn to not expect good stats, and just flow with it.  Your expectations are too high.
Luckily, stats will increase now, so that's fantastic!

Stats don't increase under the new system, from what I've noticed.

I had a PC start as young, and live for 20ish years to just a single year shy of mature, and the only stat which changed was agility, which went down.

If they do increase, it is only to a certain cap and never above it. But I don't think that's the case, cause I had a really low wisdom, which I would've expected to have ticked up at the same rate agility ticked down.

[mansa]

Stats don't increase under the new system, from what I've noticed.

I had a PC start as young, and live for 20ish years to just a single year shy of mature, and the only stat which changed was agility, which went down.

If they do increase, it is only to a certain cap and never above it. But I don't think that's the case, cause I had a really low wisdom, which I would've expected to have ticked up at the same rate agility ticked down.

Stats change, whether they increase or decrease, they are now moving with age.  I've seen it.

[Clearsighted]

Stats don't increase under the new system, from what I've noticed.

I had a PC start as young, and live for 20ish years to just a single year shy of mature, and the only stat which changed was agility, which went down.

If they do increase, it is only to a certain cap and never above it. But I don't think that's the case, cause I had a really low wisdom, which I would've expected to have ticked up at the same rate agility ticked down.

Stats change, whether they increase or decrease, they are now moving with age.  I've seen it.

Yep, moving down

[Malken]

Stats don't increase under the new system, from what I've noticed.

I had a PC start as young, and live for 20ish years to just a single year shy of mature, and the only stat which changed was agility, which went down.

If they do increase, it is only to a certain cap and never above it. But I don't think that's the case, cause I had a really low wisdom, which I would've expected to have ticked up at the same rate agility ticked down.

Stats change, whether they increase or decrease, they are now moving with age.  I've seen it.

Yep, moving down

Three stats of mine went up.