Limiting Magickers

[Desertman]

Deleted. This was not a debate thread, I will not see it become one.

[jhunter]

I don't really have anything to add because I don't feel personally that they need to be limited. If someone were to limit me on the times I could play any guild magickal or mundane, I'd just quit the game honestly. People want to play what they want to play. It's a game, and people play to have fun. I don't feel that your suggestion is the right solution. I think that something more creative could be done to alleviate the perceived issue. I also don't feel at this point that the problem is with all magickers in general, I'm more inclined to believe that it's a problem with specific ones that are easily capable of killing other pcs. All magickers are taking the blame and getting lumped together. Sorry for the derail, I'm done now.

[Desertman]

I don't really have anything to add because I don't feel personally that they need to be limited.

If someone were to limit me on the times I could play any guild magickal or mundane, I'd just quit the game honestly. People want to play what they want to play. It's a game, and people play to have fun. I don't feel that your suggestion is the right solution. I think that something more creative could be done to alleviate the perceived issue. I also don't feel at this point that the problem is with all magickers in general, I'm more inclined to believe that it's a problem with specific ones that are easily capable of killing other pcs. All magickers are taking the blame and getting lumped together. Sorry for the derail, I'm done now.

Please see comments about respecting the nature of the thread and the constructive thread posters in regards to blatant derails.

If you feel the need to post such views an alternate thread has been created for you out of kindness and consideration for your beliefs on this issue where they will not conflict with the nature of this thread. Please see the link below...

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,31642.0.html

My thanks in advance for your polite consideration.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I agree with jhunter.
Also, I think I need to stop reading the GDB for a while...

[Desertman]

I agree with jhunter.
Also, I think I need to stop reading the GDB for a while...

Please see comments about respecting the nature of the thread and the constructive thread posters in regards to blatant derails.

If you feel the need to post such views an alternate thread has been created for you out of kindness and consideration for your beliefs on this issue where they will not conflict with the nature of this thread. Please see the link below...

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,31642.0.html

My thanks in advance for your polite consideration.

[spawnloser]

I saw we limit them only in restricting who gets to play them.

Seriously, you can't say "This thread isn't for discussing if they should be, only for discussing how they should."  You ask everyone to accept your premise, that they need to be limited, as truth.  Too many people disagree with you.  This will just turn into another, "I hate magickers!  I love magickers!  People shouldn't be allowed to play so many magickers!  etc etc etc" thread.

Also, note what has been said by staff numerous times, "It is a matter of perception."  One recently said that before coming on staff, s/he agreed with your premise... but doesn't any more after getting to see what you don't see.  You're trying to start a discussion with flawed information from the beginning.

I hope this thread gets SIDS overnight.

[Desertman]

I saw we limit them only in restricting who gets to play them.

Seriously, you can't say "This thread isn't for discussing if they should be, only for discussing how they should."  You ask everyone to accept your premise, that they need to be limited, as truth.  Too many people disagree with you.  This will just turn into another, "I hate magickers!  I love magickers!  People shouldn't be allowed to play so many magickers!  etc etc etc" thread.

Also, note what has been said by staff numerous times, "It is a matter of perception."  One recently said that before coming on staff, s/he agreed with your premise... but doesn't any more after getting to see what you don't see.  You're trying to start a discussion with flawed information from the beginning.

I hope this thread gets SIDS overnight.

Please see comments about respecting the nature of the thread and the constructive thread posters in regards to blatant derails.

If you feel the need to post such views an alternate thread has been created for you out of kindness and consideration for your beliefs on this issue where they will not conflict with the nature of this thread. Please see the link below...

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,31642.0.html

My thanks in advance for your polite consideration.

[spawnloser]

I saw those comments.  I disregarded them just like you did the staff saying that there isn't a problem with magickers.

Thank you for being just as polite as I am being.

[Desertman]

I saw those comments.  I disregarded them just like you did the staff saying that there isn't a problem with magickers.

Thank you for being just as polite as I am being.

Please see comments about respecting the nature of the thread and the constructive thread posters in regards to blatant derails.

If you feel the need to post such views an alternate thread has been created for you out of kindness and consideration for your beliefs on this issue where they will not conflict with the nature of this thread. Please see the link below...

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,31642.0.html

My thanks in advance for your polite consideration.

[ale six]

No thx

[Desertman]

No thx

Please see comments about respecting the nature of the thread and the constructive thread posters in regards to blatant derails.

If you feel the need to post such views an alternate thread has been created for you out of kindness and consideration for your beliefs on this issue where they will not conflict with the nature of this thread. Please see the link below...

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,31642.0.html

My thanks in advance for your polite consideration.

[ale six]

omg stop spamming

[Desertman]

omg stop spamming

Please see comments about respecting the nature of the thread and the constructive thread posters in regards to blatant derails.

If you feel the need to post such views an alternate thread has been created for you out of kindness and consideration for your beliefs on this issue where they will not conflict with the nature of this thread. Please see the link below...

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,31642.0.html

My thanks in advance for your polite consideration.

[Jenred]

Disagree.

A fraction of vocal GDB posters does not equate to "a large portion of the playerbase". Most of these threads have the same view people arguing back and forth, with very little outside input.

[Qzzrbl]

Though I agree with this thread whole-heartedly, I can't say I have much to add. This is a low-magick game, but I've found it all but impossible to avoid the stuff.

Sure it may be a "matter of perception", that there are however many NPC and VNPCS magickers out there. I think if you wanted to make magick truly a rare and terrible thing, get rid of all those NPC and VNPC magickers. If there were only a handful of non-mundanes in the world, you could make them as powerful as you'd want. Hell, they could have "one-cast-kill" spell of doom or the "uber-mind-scrambler-of-certain-demise"  in their starting skill list for all I care. Just so long as they'd be really rare, like the docs say they should be.

[Qzzrbl]

Magick is a mysterious and very rare power on Zalanthas, about which the general public knows very little, and generally fears and hates a great deal. While magickers are tolerated in some places, they are generally feared and distrusted by the vast majority of the population of Zalanthas.

I came into the game thinking this right here. ^ ^ ^ ^

But uh... I've soon learned that this is just not so.

:Edit: Maybe they should just change the documentation to fit properly?

[Lord of Charas]

@OP

Well bring back the conclave then. See. Once you get them hyper-iso again, then they will be much rarer I feel.

The people who want to fill magicker-roles the most -are- often newbs who have just never gotten the chance to play a magicker before, yet are also keenly aware that the game will soon end. And because of that they just become so much more eager & aggressive in applying for one.

[Jenred]

Magick is a mysterious and very rare power on Zalanthas, about which the general public knows very little, and generally fears and hates a great deal. While magickers are tolerated in some places, they are generally feared and distrusted by the vast majority of the population of Zalanthas.

I came into the game thinking this right here. ^ ^ ^ ^

But uh... I've soon learned that this is just not so.

:Edit: Maybe they should just change the documentation to fit properly?

No... players should just start playing ICly and disregarding their OOC knowledge of magick on their other characters. And nowhere in that quote does it say that "Magicker PCs are very rare" its saying as a whole, in the entire real/virtual world of Zalanthas, magick is rare, and its true. Its also distrusted, by players who play correctly.

Its more a player thing. Players need to start playing correctly.

[Qzzrbl]

Magick is a mysterious and very rare power on Zalanthas, about which the general public knows very little, and generally fears and hates a great deal. While magickers are tolerated in some places, they are generally feared and distrusted by the vast majority of the population of Zalanthas.

I came into the game thinking this right here. ^ ^ ^ ^

But uh... I've soon learned that this is just not so.

:Edit: Maybe they should just change the documentation to fit properly?

No... players should just start playing ICly and disregarding their OOC knowledge of magick on their other characters. And nowhere in that quote does it say that "Magicker PCs are very rare" its saying as a whole, in the entire real/virtual world of Zalanthas, magick is rare, and its true. Its also distrusted, by players who play correctly.

Its more a player thing. Players need to start playing correctly.

The docs say that magick is a very rare any mysterious thing.... Which would make one think that the wielders of such rare and mysterious power would indeed be rare as well.

And magickers aren't very rare, or mysterious, so it makes magick itself rather common and un-mysterious. The more magickers there are, the less rare and less mysterious magick becomes, so.... More magicker PC = Less rare and mysterious magick. Magick not being mysterious or rare = Against the docs.

:Edit: And that's right, too many characters OOCly know how magick works. Now if non-mundanes were limited, then we wouldn't have so many people who know alot about it. And I would be able to freak out about a certain magicker working a certain element without another mundane PC who normally hates magick tell me, "It's okay, this will heal you."

[Desertman]

Disagree.

A fraction of vocal GDB posters does not equate to "a large portion of the playerbase". Most of these threads have the same view people arguing back and forth, with very little outside input.

Please see comments about respecting the nature of the thread and the constructive thread posters in regards to blatant derails.

If you feel the need to post such views an alternate thread has been created for you out of kindness and consideration for your beliefs on this issue where they will not conflict with the nature of this thread. Please see the link below...

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,31642.0.html

My thanks in advance for your polite consideration.

[Desertman]

Well shit, I really truly tried to keep this from becoming a "debate" thread.

But you people seem very intent on ignoring the initial request set forth for the thread, so it will now be deleted.

[Lord of Charas]

Then you shouldn't have spammed. You just made them want to do that all the more. You gave them so much food.

Besides. This is a subject that has shown to naturally thrive on debate, as no two people may view it the same way. So there's not much you can do.  let it go.

[mansa]

Remember this thread:

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,7607.0.html

ooo.  Brings back some memories.

[number13]

My big solution:

Add D-Elves to the regular non-karma tree. Reject D-Elf apps that suck. Manually remove the d-elf option from players who abuse it.

Henceforth, it costs 1 Karma point to make a special app, whether it's approved or not.  Specials apps become the only way to create a magicker, half-giant, or mul.

Greater consideration is given to players who have never experienced a particular role before. So the guy who's played 4 void eles? He aint going to get a similar app approved, but is free to spend his karma apping for mindbenders, muls, or mundanes with special skillsets. Etc.

[Bluefae]

Remember this thread:

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,7607.0.html

ooo.  Brings back some memories.

     Mansa, just sat down and read through the bulk of this one.  As always, thanks for hyperlinking it.  Was there any ultimate resolution?

[Qzzrbl]

Wait.... If more people voted to make those guilds special-app only then why were they not made spec-app only...?

[Malken]

Because that's the story of the GDB, we all bicker amongst each others while the Staff laughs at us and then once in a while, one of them descends and pity us, and make us feel like we matter 

They know what is best for the mud from seeing what we are not able to, so if something was terribly wrong concerning the amount of magickers in the game, then I'm sure they would have changed it a few
months/years ago.. That's why I don't go crazy in the magicker threads anymore, it never leads to anywhere but locked topics.

To be honest, I haven't heard of any 'sorcerer' characters in game for over.. I don't know, it's been so long! I haven't seen *edited to hide stuff that would identify the presence of a sorcerer* either in forever.. I'm almost missing them!

Void magickers? No clue.. Never really heard of them in game either much, but then, I'm not really an Allanak player either..

Psionists are a bit different, I've heard of many of them in the last year or so, but most of it could be rumors, heck, I know one of my character was even called a Psi as well not too far in the past..

[Halcyon]

I may have seen a limited cross section, but in my first month of play, I have encountered four casters, including 1 nilazi and 1 defiler, and encountered 1 psion.  Left me feeling the deepness of the pool pretty abruptly, which may not be a problem.

[Mood]

Well bring back the conclave then.

Won't happen.

[Jenred]

Well shit, I really truly tried to keep this from becoming a "debate" thread.

But you people seem very intent on ignoring the initial request set forth for the thread, so it will now be deleted.

Then don't post things as fact such as: The majority of players see a problem with magick/magickers.

A quick way to start a debate is to push an issue through false facts.

Thanks for deleting it though, at least now its accurate.

[Forest Junkie]

Wait.... If more people voted to make those guilds special-app only then why were they not made spec-app only...?

Perhaps because it's not our decision?

[Kill4Free]

Making a thread, then telling everyone who doesnt agree with you to go away really inst a constructive thread at all actually.

[manonfire]

Well bring back the conclave then.

Won't happen.

Actually, that's not true.

"Bringing back the Conclave" is simply a phrase for "form a group of rogue magickers who cooperate and work towards a common goal", which happens quite frequently IG.

The only noteworthy difference is the lack of IMM-support.

[Desertman]

Well shit, I really truly tried to keep this from becoming a "debate" thread.

But you people seem very intent on ignoring the initial request set forth for the thread, so it will now be deleted.

Then don't post things as fact such as: The majority of players see a problem with magick/magickers.

A quick way to start a debate is to push an issue through false facts.

Thanks for deleting it though, at least now its accurate.

Exact wording was..."A large number of the playerbase"

Which is open to perception...I consider the number of players "large", where as you may not.

If you intend to quote me, please do so accurately.

The thread was intended to be a place where those who already agreed with the general statement that magickers should be limited could throw ideas back and forth about how to limit them.

In the beginning of the thread this was expressed plainly, along with a modest request that those who dont agree, go on to a different thread devoted entirely to them and thier view points.

It was a humble request, that wouldnt have hurt anyone, and would have kept open a place that was debate free where those who already agreed with a given view point could discuss what they agree on, instead of having to debate, again.

Apparently, either some folks didnt fully grasp that concept, maybe I didnt explain it well enough, or they just thought it would be more fun to start up a debate.

I cant blame them really, I probably would have done it as well, but I also wouldnt pretend like I wasnt being an asshole. I am a asshole a lot, and I stand by it when I am.

[Desertman]

Making a thread, then telling everyone who doesnt agree with you to go away really inst a constructive thread at all actually.

That completely depends on what you are trying to construct...In this case I was trying to construct a thread for only those who agreed with me, as such, the only way for it to be constructive, would be for those who didnt agree with me, to not post.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I am not for the direct idea of limiting mages, per se, but would instead like to see the refreshing karma system, if it was done well. After all, I don't want us to -all- be ubers sorcs of d00m, what with my newfound karma thanks to Jherlen. See the following:

INFINITE KARMA EXPLOIT
This is one the staff really don't want you to know about. They coded a secret karma backdoor into the game so that players they know IRL can get 8 karma without the staff having to set it. All you have to do is "wish all I am the walrus" and all karma options will be set on your account.

There,  now. I don't really think that the number of magickers itself is a problem, but I do think that there should be some sort of cooldown period between eleventy-karma roles. Be it sorc or mul, or rukkian.

[Kill4Free]

I only ran into one hostile magicker (well PC one) in my 35 days played, I dont really see them as a major issue.  Though they did kill my most favorite char   As for the magicker issue that you believe exists, perhaps make them slightly less effective at slaying other PC's, so even though there are as many, they are all less of a threat.

[Desertman]

I only ran into one hostile magicker (well PC one) in my 35 days played, I dont really see them as a major issue.  Though they did kill my most favorite char   As for the magicker issue that you believe exists, perhaps make them slightly less effective at slaying other PC's, so even though there are as many, they are all less of a threat.

The problem isnt how powerful they are/them killing me. I by far have killed MANY more magickers with mundanes, than I have had killed by magickers. Any time someone is a magicker, you have an unspoken (But documented) reason to hate and kill them. Its a beautiful thing.

The problem is, I shouldnt WANT to kill them, I should WANT to run from them, and fear them like the plague, because they are horrible and rare and the boogy men mommy told me about.

This isnt the case though...They are just like every other mundane, sitting at the taverns in bulk, talking it up like friendly little butt-buddies...As such, it makes it extremely hard to RP being deathly afraid. Unless you want to constantly be deathly afraid, because they are constantly around, because there are a ton of the fuckers.

I dont want to have to constantly rp being a trembling tregil, which I should, any time I witness these rare and horrible beings gracing me with thier unholy presence.

But bluntly, the shit really loses its fucking luster after four times in one game night and you get to the point where you say..."Fuck it, I'll treat them like everyone else, because rp'ing being the only one disgusted by/afraid of them, starts to really fucking blow after the tenth encounter in on IG week."

[manonfire]

A little off-topic, but I think it was jmordetsky that said - "I'm more afraid of maxxed sap, hide, and sneak than I am of a maxxed magicker."

[Desertman]

A little off-topic, but I think it was jmordetsky that said - "I'm more afraid of maxxed sap, hide, and sneak than I am of a maxxed magicker."

QFT

But only for one reason...

The vast majority of magickers I see, are actually played by good players. I hate magickers and the fact there are seven hundred of them, I dont hate the players, the players usually rock.

(Unless they are your basic tavern sitting friendly sort, then I want to gouge thier eyes out, but, anyways...)

Typically, a magicker player will not "One-Hit-Smoke" you, even though they can, because they understand there is a sort of OOC code of conduct you follow...like Spiderman..."With great power, comes great responsibility."

Where as a badass mundane really has one code to follow...like Jack Sparrow..."What a man can do, and what a man cant do"...

You are usually much more likely to get Insta-Sapped and killed by a badass mundane, because it doesnt feel as OOC'ly twinky to the player of the mundane to do such, as it would for a maxxed magicker to Fireball-of-Hell you.

[Kill4Free]

First I wish to state that I have not run, and never will run a magicker outside of a, what their spells do, type deal at most.  As I do mostly agree, you should fear them.  But on the other hand, I dont think limiting them will make much of a difference, all that will do is get rid of the people who run magickers and die, and make another then die fast again.  After a short time ALL the magickers that are left are gonna be long lived, and pretty much all have their skills maxed.  Limiting them, all that would do is get rid of the newby ones.  Also most of the magickers that one sees are the long lived ones, as they know how to get about, they have the right friends in the right places, and can be in public to some extent.  I do not think limiting it will make much of a difference, unless it is brought to 1/3 of what there is now.

I think we just have to trust the players to act responsibly, and if perhaps you run into more magickers then you feel should be around, maybe move to a different part of the world, as they arent really everywhere.

[Desertman]

First I wish to state that I have not run, and never will run a magicker outside of a, what their spells do, type deal at most.  As I do mostly agree, you should fear them.  But on the other hand, I dont think limiting them will make much of a difference, all that will do is get rid of the people who run magickers and die, and make another then die fast again. 

I fail to see the negative side to this.

After a short time ALL the magickers that are left are gonna be long lived, and pretty much all have their skills maxed.  Limiting them, all that would do is get rid of the newby ones.

I dont see a negative to this either.

  Also most of the magickers that one sees are the long lived ones, as they know how to get about, they have the right friends in the right places, and can be in public to some extent.  I do not think limiting it will make much of a difference, unless it is brought to 1/3 of what there is now.

I still dont see the negative side?

I think we just have to trust the players to act responsibly, and if perhaps you run into more magickers then you feel should be around, maybe move to a different part of the world, as they arent really everywhere.

Mundanes going into hiding so that magickers can populate civilization in bulk...An interesting concept, pretty much the exact opposite of what the documentation puts forth, but still, interesting.

[Kill4Free]

First I wish to state that I have not run, and never will run a magicker outside of a, what their spells do, type deal at most.  As I do mostly agree, you should fear them.  But on the other hand, I dont think limiting them will make much of a difference, all that will do is get rid of the people who run magickers and die, and make another then die fast again.

I fail to see the negative side to this.

After a short time ALL the magickers that are left are gonna be long lived, and pretty much all have their skills maxed.  Limiting them, all that would do is get rid of the newby ones.

I dont see a negative to this either.

  Also most of the magickers that one sees are the long lived ones, as they know how to get about, they have the right friends in the right places, and can be in public to some extent.  I do not think limiting it will make much of a difference, unless it is brought to 1/3 of what there is now.

I still dont see the negative side?

I think we just have to trust the players to act responsibly, and if perhaps you run into more magickers then you feel should be around, maybe move to a different part of the world, as they arent really everywhere.

Mundanes going into hiding so that magickers can populate civilization in bulk...An interesting concept, pretty much the exact opposite of what the documentation puts forth, but still, interesting.

Ill bring up those 4 points once more, the first point, wasnt actually a point, I dont know how you can say there was a negative or positive aspect of it really.  It was an opinion, wether right or wrong is an opinion, not a negative or positive side to it.  Though if you agreed with my opinion and took it as fact, you might view it that way, so I will address it that way as that is the only way it makes sense.  Limiting magickers solely because there is no negative aspect to it, is sorta stupid first of all, and since I said that is all it will do, and you agreed to that, there isnt any other statement that might be made about that issue.

The second one, the negative side is that after a short time, pretty much no one can make magickers.  Not only that, but it really doesnt lower the chance of anyone dying to magickers.  Might even increase it because they cant really take more risks by letting certain people live.  And the problem the bulk of the playerbase has is that magickers kill people too easily.

The third point relates back to your previous argument that you run into magickers too often.  Putting a limit on wont change that at all really, as I just explained.

The fourth point, is not mundanes going into hiding, I played a lot of characters and I have not had this massive magicker issue, and I am sure many of the players are the same way.  If you run into too many you have several options, one is move somewhere, where you can rp the way that you want to rp, where you are scared.  That is your choice to role play like that, and it is also your choice to put yourself in a situation where you are able to rolel play like that.  Saying stuff like, oh the game is wrong, it doesnt fit my characters RP style is just childish.  If there are more magickers about, then well I guess Zalanthas has more magickers, thats just the way it is.  Documentation wasnt really updated in years - decades in game time.  So it is possible situations could have changed.

Initially I did respect you for taking a stand, saying magickers should be feared, but now it just seems like you are on a crusade, ignoring fact, not caring about opinions, and being unwilling to take advice.  The boards are definetly not the place to take it to, as I guarantee you, no matter which way this discussion ends, nothing will be done about it, it is the way it is, and lets leave it at that.

[Desertman]

Ill bring up those 4 points once more, the first point, wasnt actually a point, I dont know how you can say there was a negative or positive aspect of it really.  It was an opinion, wether right or wrong is an opinion, not a negative or positive side to it.  Though if you agreed with my opinion and took it as fact, you might view it that way, so I will address it that way as that is the only way it makes sense.  Limiting magickers solely because there is no negative aspect to it, is sorta stupid first of all, and since I said that is all it will do, and you agreed to that, there isnt any other statement that might be made about that issue.

I'm sorry, what I meant to say...Instead of..."I dont see any negatives"...was..."I see major positives". Sorry to confuse you there.

The second one, the negative side is that after a short time, pretty much no one can make magickers. 

That would be the point to limiting. The magickers have already been made, thus the slots are filled, thus they are limited. You will still be able to make magickers, but only when slots become open. Like Templars, and Noble/Merchant Family members now. This process is already used for other classes/guilds/roles, this would just expanded a process that already works, to magickers as well.

Not only that, but it really doesnt lower the chance of anyone dying to magickers.

Really? Its seems to me that "less magickers" = Less potential magicker deaths. Unless you are saying the potential to die to a magicker is the same, regardless of numbers. 10 magickers = more risk than 5 magickers. Right? Maybe my simple elementary math is off, I could be wrong.

  Might even increase it because they cant really take more risks by letting certain people live.  And the problem the bulk of the playerbase has is that magickers kill people too easily.

I dont know what to say to this, since I have no clue how to respond to..."Less magickers = more potential magicker deaths". It would be like trying to argue with gravity I think.

The third point relates back to your previous argument that you run into magickers too often.  Putting a limit on wont change that at all really, as I just explained.

Again, less magickers = less potential magicker encounters. I still fail to see how reducing the number of magickers doesnt reduce the number of magickers there are to encounter. Please explain that, how having less of something, means you encounter it just as much?

The fourth point, is not mundanes going into hiding, I played a lot of characters and I have not had this massive magicker issue, and I am sure many of the players are the same way.  If you run into too many you have several options, one is move somewhere, where you can rp the way that you want to rp, where you are scared.  That is your choice to role play like that, and it is also your choice to put yourself in a situation where you are able to rolel play like that.  Saying stuff like, oh the game is wrong, it doesnt fit my characters RP style is just childish. 

Matter of preference and opinion. You are entitled to it.

If there are more magickers about, then well I guess Zalanthas has more magickers, thats just the way it is. 

See, you are correct here...More, does equal more.

Documentation wasnt really updated in years - decades in game time.  So it is possible situations could have changed.

Until the documentation is updated, I wont presume to make assumptions about the documentation. I will go off of what the documentation says, not what i think it "Maybe, could possibly say if someone decided to change it, which they havent".

Initially I did respect you for taking a stand, saying magickers should be feared, but now it just seems like you are on a crusade,

Yes.

ignoring fact,

Please present some, I will try to ignore it, until you do though I fail to see that I could possibly ignore what you havent given.

not caring about opinions,

Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one. So you are correct here, I could care less about opinions. All opinions but my own, that is.

and being unwilling to take advice.

Good advice I am more than willing to take, I just havent seen any.

  The boards are definetly not the place to take it to, as I guarantee you, no matter which way this discussion ends, nothing will be done about it, it is the way it is, and lets leave it at that.

I got verrin hawks to produce more feathers in a matter of two RL days from a single board post once. I have faith in them, they do change things.

[ale six]

Hey Desertman, when you reply to people, could you use separate block quotes for their comments instead of block-quoting the entire post and inserting inline comments of yours in bold? It'd be a lot easier to read and follow what you're saying.

[manonfire]

No kidding.

I've gotta Control+Mousewheel to see what you're rambling on about.

[Desertman]

Hey Desertman, when you reply to people, could you use separate block quotes for their comments instead of block-quoting the entire post and inserting inline comments of yours in bold? It'd be a lot easier to read and follow what you're saying.

Yes, I think I could.

[Kill4Free]

Im not even gonna bother replying to him anymore, ignores half of what I say, and I cant even read his replies.

Though I will answer his last message.

No, they will not make a limit solely because you are complaining on the boards.  Most of the players who even answer your thread dont even agree with you.

[Desertman]

Im not even gonna bother replying to him anymore, ignores half of what I say, and I cant even read his replies.

And right after....

No, they will not make a limit solely because you are complaining on the boards.  Most of the players who even answer your thread dont even agree with you.

I am above throwing in a snarky laugh...I am...really.

Edited to Add:

No I'm not...*snarky laugh*

[Kill4Free]

Just to clarify something for the intellectually challenged, that was in the same thread, not a seperate reply, though I will admit I did scroll down to the last line and read it, which I said in the post....

I was actually curious as if anyone supported you at all, and I saw 1 person in this thread other then you, who agreed with limiting magickers.   That should tell you something.

[Kill4Free]

Ill bring up those 4 points once more, the first point, wasnt actually a point, I dont know how you can say there was a negative or positive aspect of it really.  It was an opinion, wether right or wrong is an opinion, not a negative or positive side to it.  Though if you agreed with my opinion and took it as fact, you might view it that way, so I will address it that way as that is the only way it makes sense.  Limiting magickers solely because there is no negative aspect to it, is sorta stupid first of all, and since I said that is all it will do, and you agreed to that, there isnt any other statement that might be made about that issue.

I'm sorry, what I meant to say...Instead of..."I dont see any negatives"...was..."I see major positives". Sorry to confuse you there.

That still doesnt make sense if you actually read what I typed, I said, there is no negative or positive aspect, it was an opinion.  Now here you go saying that statement, which truly shows you  little you pay attention, and then say I am confused?  Sorry I guess I shall write simpler for you.

The second one, the negative side is that after a short time, pretty much no one can make magickers.

That would be the point to limiting. The magickers have already been made, thus the slots are filled, thus they are limited. You will still be able to make magickers, but only when slots become open. Like Templars, and Noble/Merchant Family members now. This process is already used for other classes/guilds/roles, this would just expanded a process that already works, to magickers as well.

Not only that, but it really doesnt lower the chance of anyone dying to magickers.

Really? Its seems to me that "less magickers" = Less potential magicker deaths. Unless you are saying the potential to die to a magicker is the same, regardless of numbers. 10 magickers = more risk than 5 magickers. Right? Maybe my simple elementary math is off, I could be wrong.

First of all again (sigh) if you read what I was typing, I said that only the long lived magickers who have their spells maxed would be alive, those are the ones that are a threat, also the ones taking up the limiting slots.  The other half of the magickers, yes, the other 5, will pretty much be useless for quite a while, and, as things stand will most likely die before they become truly dangerous.

  Might even increase it because they cant really take more risks by letting certain people live.  And the problem the bulk of the playerbase has is that magickers kill people too easily.



I dont know what to say to this, since I have no clue how to respond to..."Less magickers = more potential magicker deaths". It would be like trying to argue with gravity I think.

Yep, you are right, you dont have a clue.  The magickers who do exist, all of a sudden, if there is a limit, and they die, the will most likely not be able to make a magicker again for quite a while.  Lots of magickers currently play it, easy, and dont really try to run around and spam kill people, and let people off if they think they could be a threat, because worst case, they die and make a new one.  Though if they die and cant make a new one, they would reguard threats to their survival much more seriously.

The third point relates back to your previous argument that you run into magickers too often.  Putting a limit on wont change that at all really, as I just explained.



Again, less magickers = less potential magicker encounters. I still fail to see how reducing the number of magickers doesnt reduce the number of magickers there are to encounter. Please explain that, how having less of something, means you encounter it just as much?

Again, you not only ignored the part where I explained why, I even said I explained why in your quote, and you didnt even include the explanation.  This is what I am talking about, you are ignoring half of what I say.  I will mention it again though so even you can grasp what I am saying.  A lot of the magickers dont actually come into the open as soon as they make their character, they wait until they have enough skill to at least have a chance at surviving, as many people do hate magickers and would love a chance to kill one.  So most of the magickers that you actively see, are the long lived ones, the ones who are confident in their abilities to deal with threats.

The fourth point, is not mundanes going into hiding, I played a lot of characters and I have not had this massive magicker issue, and I am sure many of the players are the same way.  If you run into too many you have several options, one is move somewhere, where you can rp the way that you want to rp, where you are scared.  That is your choice to role play like that, and it is also your choice to put yourself in a situation where you are able to rolel play like that.  Saying stuff like, oh the game is wrong, it doesnt fit my characters RP style is just childish.


Matter of preference and opinion. You are entitled to it.

That wasnt an opinion, that was advice.  Saying it is your choice to role play like that would technically make it your opinion, and that would make you entitled to that.

If there are more magickers about, then well I guess Zalanthas has more magickers, thats just the way it is.



See, you are correct here...More, does equal more.

What I meant, as I said shortly after, is more then the documentation might indicate...  another half quote, keep it up!

Documentation wasnt really updated in years - decades in game time.  So it is possible situations could have changed.



Until the documentation is updated, I wont presume to make assumptions about the documentation. I will go off of what the documentation says, not what i think it "Maybe, could possibly say if someone decided to change it, which they havent".

Well considering that there are quite a few things in the documention that are not correct at this moment, believing those doesnt make it true either.  The documentation says it is a guide for new and old players alike.  Guides arent set in stone, they give you the base knowledge that you are supposed to build upon yourself.

ignoring fact,


Please present some, I will try to ignore it, until you do though I fail to see that I could possibly ignore what you havent given.

Alright, since you seem to not be able to read, what I said, I will give you the facts that I already mentioned.
1. If there was a limit, most of the remaining magickers after a time, would be the long lived ones with high skills
2. Much of the documentation wasnt updated in years.
3. Most of the magickers you see about are long lived
4. You ignore half of what I say.
5. After a short time, when the limit cap is reached, then very few if any new magickers will be able to be created.

not caring about opinions,


Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one. So you are correct here, I could care less about opinions. All opinions but my own, that is.

Ignoring what everyone else thinks, and barging on forwards, generally is not the greatest idea one could come up with.

and being unwilling to take advice.


Good advice I am more than willing to take, I just havent seen any.

That if you find there are too many magickers in your area, go to a different area?  That is pretty basic basic advice, and it would solve your concerns fairly nicely, but then again, the advice came from someone other then you, so it must be useless.



Anyway, it is much easier to respond when you use seperate blocks, so thats why I went back and went over it, since you took the time to actually make what you typed legible, many thanks for that

[X-D]

I've not read this entire thread, I would just like address one point, even if it is a derail of sorts.

This isnt the case though...They are just like every other mundane, sitting at the taverns in bulk, talking it up like friendly little butt-buddies...As such, it makes it extremely hard to RP being deathly afraid. Unless you want to constantly be deathly afraid, because they are constantly around, because there are a ton of the fuckers.

There is only one city where you are going to often see known mages in bulk in a tavern. And that city has an entire quarter of the city devoted to mages. Now staff and others have said MANY times now that it is a matter of perspective. So let us try and put a bit in here. There is a city of about 500,000 people, it has a merchants quarter, a noble quarter, a templar quarter a gemmed quarter and a commoners quarter. Now I'm going to assume that at least 300,000 are commoners and slaves.  That leaves 200,000 to split four ways. So, 50,000 gemmed or family of gemmed or 10% of the VNPC population. Point being, really, you have nobody to blame but yourself. If you wanted to play a PC who really does hate and fear mages, tremble at the thought etc etc...there is an entire city that is, for the most part, mage free. And a couple outposts where it is semi-rare to see a known mage.

BTW, You know how many times in the last ten years gemmed have tried to get a tavern in the gemmed quarter and it has never happened? Leads me to believe that gemmed being in the gaj is by staff design.

[Delstro]

I think we should not limit magick. We should make it more volatile, more extreme.
On the one hand, they should be extremely weak, on the other, extremely powerful. No inbetween.

[Jenred]

I've not read this entire thread, I would just like address one point, even if it is a derail of sorts.

This isnt the case though...They are just like every other mundane, sitting at the taverns in bulk, talking it up like friendly little butt-buddies...As such, it makes it extremely hard to RP being deathly afraid. Unless you want to constantly be deathly afraid, because they are constantly around, because there are a ton of the fuckers.

There is only one city where you are going to often see known mages in bulk in a tavern. And that city has an entire quarter of the city devoted to mages. Now staff and others have said MANY times now that it is a matter of perspective. So let us try and put a bit in here. There is a city of about 500,000 people, it has a merchants quarter, a noble quarter, a templar quarter a gemmed quarter and a commoners quarter. Now I'm going to assume that at least 300,000 are commoners and slaves.  That leaves 200,000 to split four ways. So, 50,000 gemmed or family of gemmed or 10% of the VNPC population. Point being, really, you have nobody to blame but yourself. If you wanted to play a PC who really does hate and fear mages, tremble at the thought etc etc...there is an entire city that is, for the most part, mage free. And a couple outposts where it is semi-rare to see a known mage.

BTW, You know how many times in the last ten years gemmed have tried to get a tavern in the gemmed quarter and it has never happened? Leads me to believe that gemmed being in the gaj is by staff design.

Quoted for truth.

One of the biggest problem I've noticed with players is that they associate PC populations with VNPC populations.
Case in point:
"Magick is said to be rare in the docs. I saw 5 magickers today." - Just because there are magicker PCs doesn't correlate to how many VNPCs there are.

Another point, mentioned by X-D but ignored by more "you replied to this" threads:
"Magick is rare" All but one city has either a lack of, or a fairly hidden magicker populace. X-D used population numbers of just Allanak in an example. Make that double, or triple, and the percentage of people with magickal ability in the world greatly decreases. Maybe not even 10%. But until exact population figures are revealed, we may not know. 

Anyways, revealed magickers in Luirs, the North, and certain tribal areas are not usually welcomed. In fact I've never seen them treated kindly except in tribal situations where magickers were allowed. Eitherway, there has never been a flagrant magick-presence in the North that I've noticed. Most there die quickly because of an intolerant population.

Allanak sanctions magickers, granting that they reveal themselves to the Templarate. In all the world, Allanak would seem like a beacon for magickers seeking safety and the ability to learn with others. Im not suprised at all that they flock there. But this in no way puts my character at ease around them, and I will continue to, and always have, displayed fear and disgust at their presence.

That you find RPing that way "hard" or "annoying" doesn't mean you should stop. Someone might say... I find it hard to continually RP while backstabbing... Im going to stop doing so. It doesn't work. Just because its hard to do, doesn't mean you should just develop your own take on it and play it how you want.

Lead by example, don't just alter the rules because they are hard for you.

[LoD]

Another point, mentioned by X-D but ignored by more "you replied to this" threads:
"Magick is rare" All but one city has either a lack of, or a fairly hidden magicker populace. X-D used population numbers of just Allanak in an example. Make that double, or triple, and the percentage of people with magickal ability in the world greatly decreases. Maybe not even 10%. But until exact population figures are revealed, we may not know. 

Anyways, revealed magickers in Luirs, the North, and certain tribal areas are not usually welcomed. In fact I've never seen them treated kindly except in tribal situations where magickers were allowed. Eitherway, there has never been a flagrant magick-presence in the North that I've noticed. Most there die quickly because of an intolerant population.

X-D caught onto the point I've been trying to make for about 3 years now in another thread, which was that while the number of magickers may not have changed within the game, the distribution of magickers has changed dramatically since the fall of Tuluk.  It's not that there are any more magickers roaming around the northlands now than prior to the Cataclysm.  The issue is that the distribution of these magickers are largely outside of the civilization centers instead of inside them.

When magickers were tolerated within both city-states, a great many of the magicker players could be found in either Allanak or Tuluk.  There were temples, houses, taverns, people with whom to RP, and a great many assets that were attractive to players.  However, when Tuluk was destroyed and magickers were outlawed from those lands, they flooded into the wilderness areas and where it used to be rare to see a rogue magicker in the tablelands, tribal PC's suddenly saw them at every turn.

This all comes back to having viable roles and homes for magickers.  It sounds backwards, but increasing the levels of tolerance for magickers in major civilizations and allowing them to hold meaningful roles besides predator or prey will actually decrease the perception of magick in the game.  It will dilute the current magicker player base by funneling them into several different organizations rather than focusing them all into the same location by being completely ostracized.

It would also begin to siphon some of the rogue magickers out of the wilderness and back into the civilization centers, which would decrease the perception of magick in the wild.

If only it could happen, I think the world would be a far better place.

-LoD

[Morrolan]

This all comes back to having viable roles and homes for magickers.  It sounds backwards, but increasing the levels of tolerance for magickers in major civilizations and allowing them to hold meaningful roles besides predator or prey will actually decrease the perception of magick in the game.  It will dilute the current magicker player base by funneling them into several different organizations rather than focusing them all into the same location by being completely ostracized.

I couldn't agree more.  I think system changes and social changes hand-in-hand would make for a better low-magick world.  More "hedge wizardry" and less "uberdeathmatchfighterwithmanaRPbyFrankDux" focus.  With an option for the latter but a much longer "row to hoe".

Morrolan

Edit:  And always, always, always make them live on the edge of the village.  Nothing says "scary and otherworldly" like making someone liminal.  And there's plenty of anthro evidence for exactly this kind of behavior.

[jhunter]

This all comes back to having viable roles and homes for magickers.  It sounds backwards, but increasing the levels of tolerance for magickers in major civilizations and allowing them to hold meaningful roles besides predator or prey will actually decrease the perception of magick in the game.  It will dilute the current magicker player base by funneling them into several different organizations rather than focusing them all into the same location by being completely ostracized.

This will also give them more to do with their time besides practicing their magick and decrease the belief that their progression is too fast. The reason that people believe they progress so much faster is that they end up spending more of their time doing it and they also try to stay out of the public eye until they reach a certain level of power to prevent from easily being slain.
It makes it appear as if they progress faster and easier than they really do.

[ale six]

X-D caught onto the point I've been trying to make for about 3 years now in another thread, which was that while the number of magickers may not have changed within the game, the distribution of magickers has changed dramatically since the fall of Tuluk.  It's not that there are any more magickers roaming around the northlands now than prior to the Cataclysm.  The issue is that the distribution of these magickers are largely outside of the civilization centers instead of inside them.

omg LoD posted I'm gonna.....

Oh wait, I disagree.

By and large, I think the number of "rogue" mages gets greatly exaggerated on the forums. It certainly feels like there are many, many more gemmed mages than ungemmed rogues -- and the gemmed tend to live a lot longer.

Some of the mages seen in other places may in fact just be gemmed mages who are travelling. (I can see why people would make the mistakes, because it's hard to tell the difference unless you are (un)lucky enough to get up close.

Only staff can say for sure, but I'd bet big money that the gemmed population outweighs rogues by a long shot. This would mean the magickers are more distributed into civilization than we think -- or else they start there and then leave.

[Rahnevyn]

That's enough "you're replying to me!", thanks.

(deleted a bunch of extraneous replies that had nothing to do with the topic)

[Delstro]

Great post LOD. LOD brings up the point that one "rogue" magicker is more noticeable, more talked about, than a few gemmed, city bound mages. The rogues make a bigger splash than the gemmed "Tamed" ones.

If we give more city bound oppurtunities to the magickers, then I believe we will see less bored magickers that just want to go into the wilds to feel a rush.

[Riev]

I know that personally, when I've had a gemmer, there wasn't -really- that much to do inside the city. You aren't allowed to cast outside of the elementalists quarter, heck not even outside your own temple. You can't cast aggro spells in a temple (Went to jail for that once, on a spell that -really- just makes a lot of noise), and even when I was -sorta- part of the Council of Mages, I asked what they did and it was like "Oh, we go out, looking for artifacts sometimes. Sometimes the templars take us out on adventures, but thats pretty rare. We usually just sit around and talk."

Weeeeee.

[Jingo]

A while back I suggested that one solution might be to give mundanes a few possible advantages over mages. Magick resistence potions and talismans etc. Nobody seemed to really like the idea but it is still an option.

[Forest Junkie]

A while back I suggested that one solution might be to give mundanes a few possible advantages over mages. Magick resistence potions and talismans etc. Nobody seemed to really like the idea but it is still an option.

No thanks.

[spawnloser]

Deleted. This was not a debate thread, I will not see it become one.

You already did.  Seriously, if you ask people how they think magickers should be limited and they believe that magickers shouldn't have more added restrictions/penalties, they'll say so.  You can't make them not.  Repeating the same thing again and again about how you're the boss of this thread so do what you say won't work.