What is your problem with magickers/magick?

[Southie]

I haven't been responding to this thread, because I've hoped it would just die off. I hate to say it, but it feels like plenty of people either 1) have an axe to grind or 2) are describing situations that I have never seen in game, past or recently, like they are fact.

Plenty of the IC stuff that's being discussed/ranted about could be discussed/ranted about ICly instead, with likely more productive results. If you have a problem with what templars/nobles/gemmers/anyone is doing, why not handle it in game? Characters don't read the GDB, and the GDB doesn't change what characters think.

At the very least I wish we'd keep this discussion to OOC facts/opinions about the magick system and not the IC actions of characters.

[Rahnevyn]

Hi.

DO NOT POST IC INFO REGARDING MAGES, GEMMERS, GEMS, MAGICK, MAGICK CODE, WHERE MAGES CAN OR CANNOT CAST, AND HOW TEMPLARS MAY OR MAY NOT DEAL WITH MAGES.

The original thread topic was "What is your problem with magickers/magick?" Post what you like or do not like about the system.

DO NOT POST IC INFO. PERIOD. IF IT IS NOT IN A DOC OR HELPFILE ABOUT MAGICK, DO NOT POST IT.

I had to lock this thread while I did some major surgery on it to (once again) delete things. If it gets to this point again, I'm going to lock the whole discussion.

Thanks,
Rahnevyn

[Qzzrbl]

If you have a problem with what templars/nobles/gemmers/anyone is doing, why not handle it in game?

Because my character enjoys living and doesn't want bad things to happen to him.

What commoner in their right mind would speak up against Lord Templar Hardnose or High Noble Fancy McSilkpants?

[Gimfalisette]

Dear Tek, please help us to not anger Rahnevyn anymore, amen.

At least rogues don't have a nice safe temple to spam cast in.

And actually, if the role of gemmer required more finesse to pull off, it would be 10x more appealing to me. As it stands, in the exceptionally unlikely case that I play a magicker I'll have to go rogue, just because being gemmed seems like EZ-mode to me.

You need to think about how the system currently encourages "spam-casting" in temples. Are gemmers spam-casting because they can and it's an easy way to "level up", or are they doing it because they are just bored and can't find any meaningful interaction or other way to spend their time? Are they "spam-casting" at all, or are they actually just practicing in a reasonable manner on a regular basis, akin to how a Bynner practices skills?

Do rogue mages go rogue because it's harder/harsher than being gemmed, or because it's less constricting, or because it presents variety to the role, or because they will simply get more interaction that way?

Continuing to cast aspersions on the "type" of player who chooses to play a gemmer or a rogue or whatever is non-constructive, and also distracts from the primary question of how the present system shapes player choice.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Truthfully, I have had a few months of play on Arm, I have met 3 magickers I know of. One up north, 2 down south. Which, being as I have never played a character that spent much time below luirs really says something. I think you ought to play in the place where magick is straight-up illegal if you don't want much exposure to magickers on a regular basis. I guarantee that if you do this, it isn't a problem unless you purposely involve yourself in higher-reaching storylines that are, admittedly, generally magickal/supernatural in nature. Sheesh. Maybe its just me that doesn't really understand the problem here? It seems as though everyone so enjoys playing in Allanak, the one places where mages find semi-santuary, but then they want to bitch about the number of mages there. I mean, logically, even in the npc and vnpc populations, the numbedr of magickers has got to be elevated from that in other areas, simply because most mages wanting to live would probably flee there if they could, I know -I- would if the world was out to get me, I had no real way to survive on my own and thought there was a chance I might be able to carve out a life for myself somewhere. You don't want magesto be seeming more common than the average, play somewhere they wouldn't logically flock to.

[LoD]

I think it held more opportunities for players in general to be able to walk a dark and a light path, to choose to be good or bad, and to be hunted and hated mostly for your actions rather than your class choice.  It'd be nice if some of that could return.

I'd be all for that over the way things currently are. I remember way back when, defilers where the only magick users that were commonly -always- hunted down and destroyed. Elementalists were much like any other character except they used magick.

Exactly.  Somewhere along the road, everyone who could use magick got lumped into the same barrel with sorcerers and no one seemed to care.  There's a pile of reasons that include IC events, Immortal run plots, class changes, and a wealth of intangible factors that slowly contributed to the downward spiral over time.  My point is that the end result has left us with the majority of Armageddon class choices being pigeonholed into the roles of predator or prey. 

And there's so much more opportunity that could come about as a result of a more tolerant view of elementalism in general than what we see today.

When we cling to the predator and prey model, perpetuated by the fear/hate/loathe magickers mantra, we're effectively taking a statue of opportunity and sawing it off at the knees.  If elementalists have a home and a place in society, they have something to lose.  That means that they may decide to protect what they stand to lose, against other magickers and other threats.  They have an investment in their family, their clan, their house, and their way of life.  Those values can be manipulated by the world around them in all kinds of interesting ways.

When the system removes the opportunity to have those things before even entering the game, it simultaneously removes many of the best RP and story opportunities possible for that character.

And that's a shame.

-LoD

[Tisiphone]

Chiming in to support: LoD's not lobbying for magickers to be socially identical with mundanes. Make them second or even third class citizens, but allow both sides to interact with one another on a sanctioned level above the fight or flight reaction.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Chiming in to support: LoD's not lobbying for magickers to be socially identical with mundanes. Make them second or even third class citizens, but allow both sides to interact with one another on a sanctioned level above the fight or flight reaction.

I've always felt, just personally, that the fight or flight thing wouldn't always be the expedient reaction. I do the same as I would IRL if someone easily kill me, I try and be as nice as possible, offering what help I can in return for, hopefully, my life. Especially when I don't know if they can catch up with me in like two seconds. And I certainly didn't report it, not when the people playing the roles were cunning enough to tell my tuluki that she would be killed for dealing with magickers outside the city, and would be in loads of trouble with the templars if she reported it. To me, that amounts to a rapist saying they'll slit your throat if you -ever- tell, and for all you know, that rapist could know the second you even let it cross your mind.

[Salt Merchant]

At least rogues don't have a nice safe temple to spam cast in.

No, but many of them have nice safe compounds to spar to their little hearts content in. I see little difference.

I'd also like to point out that the gemmed (who can occupy temples) are only a subset of magickers. The latter include sorcerers, nilazi and the ungemmed as well, all of whom lead risky lives from day one, more or less.

[Dalmeth]

Chiming in to support: LoD's not lobbying for magickers to be socially identical with mundanes. Make them second or even third class citizens, but allow both sides to interact with one another on a sanctioned level above the fight or flight reaction.

Huh, but even with the gemmed there are difficulties to making them lower class than commoners.  So long as gemmers are viewed as Tek's Toys, the personal slaves of Tektolnes, they will always be better than the average commoner.  The Gemmed Quarter should have been a slum as dirty or dirtier than anything normal commoners have to deal with.

As a step toward this, I might suggest providing templars with another piece of jewelry, as a mark that a particular gemmer is in their service.  Dependent on rank, they would be able to have a limited number of these gemmers for their personal retinue.  By making a few gemmers special, you might go a long way in making the rest not special.

[X-D]

Again, not reading the entire thread but in respect to what LoD said about mages needing niches. Here is something you all might wish to think about. On that point, LoD is 100% correct. Again, going back 10 years+ most clans in the south could and would hire gemmed mages. Tor did, only three types, but they did. Fale did, three types as well..just other kinds. Now you all go, how can that help. Well, to be honest, it spreads the mages out. They have other things to do at different times. "you" as to average PC see them in bulk far less. There are fewer rogues, etc etc. Many of you do not have the time with the game to see what really happens. Now gemmed mages have VERY little choice and must pretty much remain indy or simply not get gemmed at all. There was a time when almost every house, noble and merchant tried to employ at least one viv. Why, well, most of them did not have unlimited water scripts in clan. This is fitting with the docs. Today only one clan hires them, leaving the rest to pretty much be in your face. At the time the choice was, Be gemmed, probly get some work, make a life even if you are still disliked or go rogue and most certainly die young. Now it is, Go gemmed, be hated and bored to tears with no real way to make a life other then doing the same thing the rogue mages are doing. Or be rogue, band with other rogues and raid the piss out of every mundane you see.

[Malken]

You're making gemmed magickers sound awfully more miserable than they currently appear to be in-game, X-D.

Not so long ago I saw a couple of giggling, cheerful gemmed girls. My head almost exploded.

[AmandaGreathouse]

You're making gemmed magickers sound awfully more miserable than they currently appear to be in-game, X-D.

Not so long ago I saw a couple of giggling, cheerful gemmed girls. My head almost exploded.

I noticed that in other, non-magicker threads, there are some people giving the benefit of the doubt. I am going to give it here. I know it may seem like a stretch, but perhaps there was a perfectly IC reason for them giggling. I mean, couldn't there be? People shouldn't have to -always- be a certain way in game, otherwise, once it starts to feel like work, they (or perhaps just I) would sit through it for a while, until finally killing off or storing theri 2-d gimp character. I mean, with all the talk about having depth to characters, why -couldn't- they have a reason to laugh.

My problem is that too many people seem to be railing against them, and at points even to the point of just outright OOC prejudice, just because they are mages. I mean, aren't the best characters the ones that change and grow, adapting to and working with the environment around them? I don't think that all mage characters should have to be pigeonholed in personality. Why should they have to have a personality thats scary, isn't it the -magick- itsself that's supposed to be scary?

[X-D]

Miserable...that was not my intention. My intention is to point out that The more you limit what a class will do, the more of them will be doing the same things. If you make it so they cannot get jobs, all will turn to raiding in some manner. If you make it so they cannot be in the least bit social in the city, then they won't be, leaving them to only "sit around spam casting". At one time clans and clan leaders saw gemmed as tools...or some gemmed and depending on the clan. Tor hired vivs and battle mages, they could even become privates, but no rank higher then that. Other clans hired other mages for other reasons. Vivs were highly sought after. Exactly as the docs state.

Guild Water Elementalist     (Character)

Water elementalists are the most valuable mages in existence on the parched desert world of Zalanthas. There is no better companion than an expert water mage on a long journey.

Most magicks of water mages stem from Vivadu, the elemental plane of water. Water mages are able to conjure water from that plane with ease, and can learn to have complete control over all waters, to poison or purify, to create or destroy. While possessing almost no combat abilities, water mages are powerful in more subtle ways: they are able to heal virtually any wound, create impenetrable barriers around themselves, and manipulate liquids.

Water mages are highly employable, amongst those who would hire any mage to begin with. As companions on journeys they can be worth incredible sums of money, and as permanent parts of clans or Houses worth even more. Due to the widespread unease generally felt around any mage, however, only large organizations generally will consider hiring a water elementalist.

You know...in checking the docs, the people who state that the docs say all mages and magick is feared and hated etc are in fact wrong. Most state at least in nak that it is a general unease. It is feared and hated through most of the world, specialy in the north.

[Jenred]

Miserable...that was not my intention. My intention is to point out that The more you limit what a class will do, the more of them will be doing the same things. If you make it so they cannot get jobs, all will turn to raiding in some manner. If you make it so they cannot be in the least bit social in the city, then they won't be, leaving them to only "sit around spam casting". At one time clans and clan leaders saw gemmed as tools...or some gemmed and depending on the clan. Tor hired vivs and battle mages, they could even become privates, but no rank higher then that. Other clans hired other mages for other reasons. Vivs were highly sought after. Exactly as the docs state.

Guild Water Elementalist     (Character)

Water elementalists are the most valuable mages in existence on the parched desert world of Zalanthas. There is no better companion than an expert water mage on a long journey.

Most magicks of water mages stem from Vivadu, the elemental plane of water. Water mages are able to conjure water from that plane with ease, and can learn to have complete control over all waters, to poison or purify, to create or destroy. While possessing almost no combat abilities, water mages are powerful in more subtle ways: they are able to heal virtually any wound, create impenetrable barriers around themselves, and manipulate liquids.

Water mages are highly employable, amongst those who would hire any mage to begin with. As companions on journeys they can be worth incredible sums of money, and as permanent parts of clans or Houses worth even more. Due to the widespread unease generally felt around any mage, however, only large organizations generally will consider hiring a water elementalist.

You know...in checking the docs, the people who state that the docs say all mages and magick is feared and hated etc are in fact wrong. Most state at least in nak that it is a general unease. It is feared and hated through most of the world, specialy in the north.

That is not just Vivaduans.

Stone mages may be employed as part of an army or scouting group, for they are well able to weave protective magicks around their companions.

More than any other mage, sun mages are employed for purposes of combat.

Nearly as much as water mages, wind mages are able to sell their spells for a good profit, to those who would hire a mage in the first place. A powerful wind mage can be an absolutely invaluable ally, however, and so they may be sought out to aid in various assassinations, espionage (at which wind mages can be very good), or military operations.

Just by re-reading the helpfiles it would imply that not only do most people have a general understanding of what mages do (wind elementalist says that people distrust them because they cannot comprehend their plane-shifting and mysterious ways of moving), but still just don't trust them. At the same time it shows that at least a few are employed for military purposes, and some as regular traveling companions.

Not all fear is the run and hide fear.

[brytta.leofa]

Stone mages may be employed as part of an army or scouting group, for they are well able to weave protective magicks around their companions.

When's the last time you saw a PC military unit line up to get spellabuffed?  Without anybody freaking out / going crazy / deciding that all elementalists must die?

Maybe I just haven't been in the right RPTs.

[Jenred]

Stone mages may be employed as part of an army or scouting group, for they are well able to weave protective magicks around their companions.

When's the last time you saw a PC military unit line up to get spellabuffed?  Without anybody freaking out / going crazy / deciding that all elementalists must die?

Maybe I just haven't been in the right RPTs.

Certain ingame organizations used to utilize magick this way, but yes, it was only during one RPT that I saw it used other then in a research-ive way.

[Spoon]

Er... one particular RPT, all the militia soldiers getting spell buffs were like: "Oh YEAH. This kicks ASS!", "Check my magick ring!" and even "My fire shield ran out, recast!"


Some of you might remember, it was down a hole.

[Is Friday]

I hate it when people try to justify points with obviously out-dated docs.

[Forest Junkie]

I hate it when people try to justify points with obviously out-dated docs.

If they're outdated then why haven't they been changed?

[Gimfalisette]

I hate it when people try to justify points with obviously out-dated docs.

What FJ said. The docs are the docs are the docs. There's nothing outdated about them, until they are actually outdated by a new version provided by the imms.

[Forest Junkie]

I hate it when people try to justify points with obviously out-dated docs.

What FJ said. The docs are the docs are the docs. There's nothing outdated about them, until they are actually outdated by a new version provided by the imms.

We agreed! *high five* 

[Gimfalisette]

I hate it when people try to justify points with obviously out-dated docs.

What FJ said. The docs are the docs are the docs. There's nothing outdated about them, until they are actually outdated by a new version provided by the imms.

We agreed! *high five* 

ON A MAGICKER THREAD! *rofl*

[jhunter]

Exactly, it has been mentioned many times through many threads on the subject and afaik, the staff has never said that they were outdated and were intended to be anything else.

[Jenred]

And as of now characters are still required to read the documentation before playing. New characters will read whats there and use it as their basis for playing, not assuming they'd be outdated.