What is your problem with magickers/magick?

[Rhyden]

After reading the entire thread, here's what I agree with most strongly, and voices my opinion the best.

Merchant houses, mercenary units, and entire tribes were created and put into the game at the behest of these [mundane] players. Name as many magickers as I have who accomplished as much, please... Roll Eyes Exactly.

My problem with magickers is that much of magick is centered around combat.

What I do have a problem with is that there's so many freaking threads about it. It's really annoying/boring/tiring to come on the GDB every day and find a new thread about someone complaining about the number of magickers or other issues along the same lines. The issue has been run into the ground.

edit: Did I do my quotes right Seph?

[Salt Merchant]

Merchant houses, mercenary units, and entire tribes were created and put into the game at the behest of these [mundane] players. Name as many magickers as I have who accomplished as much, please... Roll Eyes Exactly.

My impression is that the Conclave was formed by players. Perhaps the Council of Allanaki Mages was too.

Nevertheless, how do you figure this imbalance might exist? Perhaps it's because the "group of mages" idea can only fly so many times. Or perhaps it's been due to the implicit numerical limitations on mages; a handful of scattered mages isn't enough. Or perhaps it's because the gemmed aren't free to set up such things, since they're implicitly clanned already, and the ungemmed are scattered and suspicious. Or perhaps the game has just been stagnant for a while. When was the last new clan or tribe introduced? Or perhaps it's because developing a mundane following is exceptionally difficult when they're told they all hate you.

Whatever the reason, it seems pretty apparent that mundanes have more opportunity in the game, despite all of the complaining.

[Forest Junkie]

My impression is that the Conclave was formed by players. Perhaps the Council of Allanaki Mages was too.

The Conclave possibly was, I can't remember. The CAM, however, was created by a staff member, not players.

Whatever the reason, it seems pretty apparent that mundanes have more opportunity in the game, despite all of the complaining.

Agreed.

[some guy]

Just simply that. I would prefer that noone respond to other posts, etc. Just simply to put together a list of the things that people don't like or the problems that they have with mages and magick. Please take a few moments to think about it and post only what is the heart of the problem for you, the plain and simple issue that you truly have with mages and magick currently in Armaggedon.

1) The pace at which their proficiency with spells increases and how often they branch new spells. I know this is only really possible when adopting a playstyle that is widely regarded as twinkish, but I also know that it is being done. I don't get why it should be possible if it's not intended, and I see nothing positive whatsoever about the fact that it can be done. It attracts too many playes, it attracts the wrong kinds of players, and the outcome is obvious even if it has improved slightly in the past six months. Until magick is made made less earth-shatteringly powerful and effortless to master, it will continue to cause an imbalance in the game and will be the cause of near-daily threads with multiple pages in negative tones.

2) The fact that almost every major plotline is wholly centered around magick in some form. Even if it doesn't technically revolve around elementalist-guild PCs, most if it is supernatural in nature and makes it much harder for mundanes to participate in a meaningful manner.

3) An overabundance of magickers and magickal elements destroys the theme and atmosphere for me. It has robbed me of the sense of wonder, fear and mystery much faster than if it was actually rare and secret. Over the course of the past year it got so out of hand that I now have a hard time enjoying anything that involves any kind of magick.

4) I find that magickers are rarely played to the standard that I expect players of 2+ karma to meet. This is linked to #1 and the fact that I believe this aspect of the game attracts too many players who desire the fast route to power at the expense of quality roleplay.

5) I find the social aspect of magick-related roleplay to be severely lacking. All of the above contributes to this, and the end result is that anything magick-related is now met with apathy and indifference almost everywhere that I've noticed. Most gemmed magickers sit in their temples the majority of the time and struggle to find reasons and opportunities to have meaningful interaction with the rest of the world. Rogue magickers are obviously very limited in that regard. Noone really seems to make any attempt at playing it out anymore, and they don't have much reason to do it either save for the fact that the documentation tells them they have to, which is just not enough when nothing else encourages it.

All in all, I just have a problem with the massively negative impact that it has all had on the game in the past year or two.

[Spoon]

My problem with magickers is the way some are role played. It takes the 'magic' away from they mud for me when magickers act like and expect to be treated like a normal person. I might as well be sitting next to a mantis at the bar, which reminds me of other muds I don't play for good reasons.

[Tisiphone]

How jaded people are against magickers IG, mostly due to misconceptions perpetuated on the GDB. 'tis nearly impossible to play one well anymore, because either the mundane population of players sleight you on the assumption of you being another bad player, or the magickal population draws together defensively against this attitude.

[LoD]

Whatever the reason, it seems pretty apparent that mundanes have more opportunity in the game, despite all of the complaining.

Well, you have to consider the fact that many of the merchant houses, noble houses, and tribes in the game have included or employed mages throughout the game's history.  The fact that organizations like the Conclave, CAM, and Order of the Elements were exclusive to magickers may be partially responsible for them not being as popular -- they simply don't cater to as wide an audience and end up being fairly isolated and detracting from the player base.

For example, one of the founding members of House Kohmar was an elementalist.  The Ironsword clan had a few elementalists that moved through its ranks.  Criminal organizations such as the Vault and Guild have had elementalists. Raiding groups have employed elementalists.  There are human and elven tribes that both allow elementalists.

So, ultimately it ends up being an inaccurate claim that the presence of these organizations which have allowed and employed both magickers and mundanes somehow denotes more opportunity for the mundane player when compared with the emergence of organizations that are comprised exclusively of magickers.  The Imms should support a larger group of organizations and peoples that allow for a diverse and varied playing field compared to isolated pockets of <insertaclass>-only clubs.

I'd actually prefer to see elementalists better integrated into these organizations.  Allow them to assume a variety of roles that make them feel helpful and useful.  I'd rather see elementalists be hated and hunted based on their deeds rather than their class choice, because this "witch or bitch" mentality with elementalists and supernaturals only serves to limit options and choices for viable role play, and I don't think that's ever a good thing.

Magickers can still be hunted, hated, and powerful without the game world forcing that role upon them.  Let them choose to be rogue magickers, killers, and abominations the way mundane PC's can choose to be raiders, spies, and assassins.  The mundane populace can still view the bulk of them with varying degrees of suspicion, hatred, and fear based on two factors, their reputation and their actions.

-LoD

[Qzzrbl]

I'd rather see elementalists be hated and hunted based on their deeds rather than their class choice, because this "witch or bitch" mentality with elementalists and supernaturals only serves to limit options and choices for viable role play, and I don't think that's ever a good thing.

Magickers can still be hunted, hated, and powerful without the game world forcing that role upon them.  Let them choose to be rogue magickers, killers, and abominations the way mundane PC's can choose to be raiders, spies, and assassins.  The mundane populace can still view the bulk of them with varying degrees of suspicion, hatred, and fear based on two factors, their reputation and their actions.

-LoD

Jeeze, why not take away the karma requirement while you're at it? I thought the reason they were karma-restricted in the first place was because the imms wanted to make sure the 'gicker players could handle the roleplay it requires to play a magicker. If you take away the blind hatred, and allow magickers to feel "normal" or "accepted", then what is it making them any different from a non-mundane? Rp-wise at least.

If Magickers weren't hated/feared, and if half-giants were allowed to be insanely smart, and if desert elves were allowed to live in the city, and it haflings were allowed to assimilate into normal human society, there would be no need for Karma.

I don't think it's the power of magickers holding them to that karma spot, there are a number of mundane ways to one-hit-kill another player if you work at it hard enough. It's the rp it takes to play a magicker and the limited opportunities that ties them to the karma.

IMHO at least.

[Gimfalisette]

No, karma is not the mark of a "good roleplayer." (Although some with karma are good roleplayers, but it wasn't merely emoting prettily that got them there; it's not a quality measure.) As stated by staff, it is a measure of trust. Trustability includes things like ability to play according to documentation, to consider the whole virtual environment while playing, enhancing the game for fellow players, and not abusing coded power.

The limited opportunities currently given to mages is not part of the karma system, rather it's a system design feature intended to provide social balance to magickers and mundanes so that PC numbers stay somewhat in balance. The idea is that these limitations on non-mundanes will keep their numbers down, because it's socially painful and difficult to play a non-mundane.

[Forest Junkie]

No, karma is not the mark of a "good roleplayer." (Although some with karma are good roleplayers, but it wasn't merely emoting prettily that got them there; it's not a quality measure.) As stated by staff, it is a measure of trust. Trustability includes things like ability to play according to documentation, to consider the whole virtual environment while playing, enhancing the game for fellow players, and not abusing coded power.

Semantics. In my opinion, if the staff trusts a player to play a role and adhere to the documentation, then that means the player -is- a good roleplayer. You act under the assumption that players who accrue karma did so without having quality roleplay. I feel that it's the quality of their roleplay that got them to where they are now. Adhering to documentation, considering the virtual environment, enhancing the game for fellow players, and not abusing the code makes a great player. So yes, players who do these things and acquire karma are, imo, good roleplayers.

[LoD]

If you take away the blind hatred, and allow magickers to feel "normal" or "accepted", then what is it making them any different from a non-mundane? Rp-wise at least.

There's a difference between being allowed a variety of roles in which you feel useful and helpful and feeling "normal" and "accepted" by society.  You could feel normal and accepted by a small group of people without being accepted by an entire populace.  Tolerated is probably a better word to use all around.

And what makes any character different from one another, rp-wise, is the player behind the character.

If Magickers weren't hated/feared, and if half-giants were allowed to be insanely smart, and if desert elves were allowed to live in the city, and it haflings were allowed to assimilate into normal human society, there would be no need for Karma.

Well, first of all you're comparing races to classes.  Half-giants, elves, and halflings are separated by several factors including, but not limited to, physical makeup, mental capacity, and cultural influences.  Elementalists are a class choice, without an inherently different cultural or physiological makeup. And I simply think it's been a mistake to attempt to impose a culture of hatred and fear around them rather than allowing them to walk a path of varied opportunity.  Some would become the monsters that people make them out to be, while others might find a home working discretely for a merchant house or similar business.

Simply because they can be accepted doesn't necessarily mean that they will be accepted wholesale by the entire populace of a city-state, any more than elves, slaves, or foreigners are accepted wholesale due to prejudice, racism, and ethnocentric beliefs.

I don't think it's the power of magickers holding them to that karma spot, there are a number of mundane ways to one-hit-kill another player if you work at it hard enough. It's the rp it takes to play a magicker and the limited opportunities that ties them to the karma.

Karma exists to ensure that the players of karma races and classes embody them responsibly, and not because they will be the most interesting role-player.  There's a difference between the two, but they are not mutually exclusive.  They often go hand-in-hand, but you can have responsible players who are not terribly gifted role-players, just as you can have gifted role-players who are not terribly responsible.  When talking about the power potential of the magicker class, I would expect the feature you want most is responsibility in their decisions.

Magickers weren't always hunted and hated, and people didn't seem to enjoy them any less.  Several people in this thread have mentioned that they thought there were just as many elementalists 10 years ago as there are today, back when there weren't even the same skill progression and power potential opportunities as there are in the current game.  I don't remember there being a thread-a-week about magick or magickers back then, nor do I remember the game feeling "full" of magickers.

Many of the people who have played in the last 5 years haven't ever known an environment like that, so I understand where it could be difficult to envision something other than what you know.  I think it held more opportunities for players in general to be able to walk a dark and a light path, to choose to be good or bad, and to be hunted and hated mostly for your actions rather than your class choice.  It'd be nice if some of that could return.

-LoD

[jhunter]

I think it held more opportunities for players in general to be able to walk a dark and a light path, to choose to be good or bad, and to be hunted and hated mostly for your actions rather than your class choice.  It'd be nice if some of that could return.

I'd be all for that over the way things currently are. I remember way back when, defilers where the only magick users that were commonly -always- hunted down and destroyed. Elementalists were much like any other character except they used magick.

[Desertman]

I'd be all for that over the way things currently are. I remember way back when, defilers where the only magick users that were commonly -always- hunted down and destroyed. Elementalists were much like any other character except they used magick.

Isnt it like this now?

Come down to the Gaj, you can chum it up with them every single night of the week, just like everyone else.

[Malken]

I say that only elves should be able to play magickers, it seems like players have absolutely no trouble being total jerks to elves, so if only elves are allowed to be magickers, then it would seem like everyone would fear and hate them more easily, no?

[manonfire]

I'd be all for that over the way things currently are. I remember way back when, defilers where the only magick users that were commonly -always- hunted down and destroyed. Elementalists were much like any other character except they used magick.

Isnt it like this now?

Come down to the Gaj, you can chum it up with them every single night of the week, just like everyone else.

People tend to focus on the negative (mundanes interacting cordially with gemmers) and neglect to praise the positive (upholding game documentation).

Honestly, I've seen both. It's just that for people who care, watching a cheerful interaction between a magicker and a mundane is fucking irritating.

To those who still hold true, I salute you.

[Desertman]

I second the above.

[Gimfalisette]

I'd be all for that over the way things currently are. I remember way back when, defilers where the only magick users that were commonly -always- hunted down and destroyed. Elementalists were much like any other character except they used magick.

Isnt it like this now?

Come down to the Gaj, you can chum it up with them every single night of the week, just like everyone else.

It's really not like this now. In order to play/live/work as a publicly-recognized magicker within a city setting, elementalists MUST choose to take the gem, and be in Allanak. And even then, mundanes are strongly discouraged from associating with them or doing open business with them; there are social and possibly other repercussions for doing so. It's just one, very forced playstyle choice, which is IMO why so many of them seem to decide to play outside the system and end up "rogue". The gemmer has no choice about the public's attitude toward him/her, and the mundane has no real choice about attitude toward the gemmer. It ends up being extremely constricting on all sides.

[manonfire]

I'd be all for that over the way things currently are. I remember way back when, defilers where the only magick users that were commonly -always- hunted down and destroyed. Elementalists were much like any other character except they used magick.

Isnt it like this now?

Come down to the Gaj, you can chum it up with them every single night of the week, just like everyone else.

It's really not like this now. In order to play/live/work as a publicly-recognized magicker within a city setting, elementalists MUST choose to take the gem, and be in Allanak. And even then, mundanes are strongly discouraged from associating with them or doing open business with them; there are social and possibly other repercussions for doing so. It's just one, very forced playstyle choice, which is IMO why so many of them seem to decide to play outside the system and end up "rogue". The gemmer has no choice about the public's attitude toward him/her, and the mundane has no real choice about attitude toward the gemmer. It ends up being extremely constricting on all sides.

Oh, I dunno. It seems there's a pretty consistent gemmer population of 4-6 at any given time. Having played a shitload of gemmers, the role isn't -that- constricting. Sure, there's things you can't do, but there's plenty of breathing room available.

This is especially true when you've got a bitchin' templar at the helm.

[Forest Junkie]

Agreed, mof

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Absolutely agreed. I don't like it at all. Gemmed mages should be hirable by any clan or House. Gemmed mages should be forced to take coded disadvantages, though, like higher prices at stores, a delay in guards opening doors, delayed service at the pub, and stuff like this, to reflect their status. Other players should be freeer to interact with gemmed mages. Sure, one could still look down on mages and those who befriend them, but the extremes we have now are hampering to roleplay, even.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

By the way, High-Fantasy has nothing to do with magick. We could all be mages and this game would still be Low-Fantasy. The term indicates the absence of good vs. evil.

[number13]

re: LoD

If it's going to be a high magic MUD with gickers around every corner and fully integrated into society, then the power levels of magickers would have to be drastically reduced -- or else mundanes become entirely redundant.  (if they aren't already heading in that direction) 

You'd end up with two classes of players -- the Karma-ed players who actually get to do things, and the rest who are just along for the ride -- which actually isn't a terrible idea. It could be fun to roleplay magickers as the entitled class of Allanak that the mundane plebes fear and grovel before.  But, you know, we already got Templars filling that role.

....

The check on magickers, in the game world, is that a) the mundanes vastly outnumber them and b) there's pair of sorcerer-kings who don't want anyone getting strong enough to challenge their authority.   I'd like see those checks brought into play.

The first check can't happen unless the mundane player population actually does vastly outnumber the magicker population.  In certain areas of the game, that isn't always true.  It's hard for the mundanes to put the gickers in their place unless the mundane PCs have something like a 10 to 1 advantage in numbers.  Or even a 5 to 1 advantage would be nice.

The second check is the responsibility of Templars, staff, and to a lesser extent nobles. It should be scary to noble players and Templar players alike to see a gemmed or rogue magicker attain too much power.  Firstly, it challenges their own authority. Second, they've got a big boss in a Tower or Pyramid peering over their shoulders, probably displeased at the job performance of His minions.

A gemmer, for example, should be perpetually in fear of appearing ripe for the harvest, so to speak.  Spam casting in their temple should be suicide until the gemmer has built up a high degree of trust with a particular Templar or Oashi noble.  Even then, that gemmer had better watch his back, constantly.

Instead, we have insanely powerful gemmers hanging out in the Gaj, out hunting scarabs, and generally doing whatever until the next HRPT.  That should be pissing the Templars off, imho. The gemmers are allowed in Allanak to be tools at the disposal of the Templarate. It shouldn't be a free ride, and it should only somewhat less dangerous than being a rogue gicker.

After all, seeing a gemmer butchered in the arena would be a crowd pleaser.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Bah. No elementist should ever consider himself in a position to challange Tek for power, or even a Templar. Also, in saying what you are saying, aren't you trying to encourage rogues versus gemmed?

[Gimfalisette]

Making the role of gemmer less pleasant and more unplayable for players would be an excellent thing to do, design-wise, if the system goal was to move those who want to play magickers out of the gemmed role and into rogue roles. If that is not the desired outcome of the system, then it would be a very poor choice indeed.

[number13]

design-wise, if the system goal was to move those who want to play magickers out of the gemmed role and into rogue roles.

At least rogues don't have a nice safe temple to spam cast in.

And actually, if the role of gemmer required more finesse to pull off, it would be 10x more appealing to me. As it stands, in the exceptionally unlikely case that I play a magicker I'll have to go rogue, just because being gemmed seems like EZ-mode to me.