What is your problem with magickers/magick?

[jhunter]

Just simply that. I would prefer that noone respond to other posts, etc. Just simply to put together a list of the things that people don't like or the problems that they have with mages and magick. Please take a few moments to think about it and post only what is the heart of the problem for you, the plain and simple issue that you truly have with mages and magick currently in Armaggedon.

[Synthesis]

I hate the way that, if you choose to play a magicker, your character will inexplicably be entirely useless at anything mundane that might be useful.

I mean, if magickers are -supposed- to be able to pwn noobz...why not let them cast fireballs -and- disarm people?

If balance is an issue, raise the karma requirements.  I'm tired of playing magickers that are completely useless at everything except melting faces.

[Zoltan]

I hate the way that, if you choose to play a magicker, your character will inexplicably be entirely useless at anything mundane that might be useful.

That right there is one of my problems with magick.

I'll post some more when I'm feeling more coherent.

[Malken]

I don't like that, in theory, magickers could go from "just discovering their powers" to the most powerful magicker without ever leaving the safety of four walls, alone, and sheltered from any dangers. (I'm not just talking gemmers, I'm also talking tribal magickers.)

I also don't like that it seems like most rogue magickers lack goals, which lead to them being bored and 'harassing' characters, because, like a poster said, they can pretty much only use magick and nothing else.

[Cutthroat]

I haven't played any magickers, but based on my limited knowledge from the helpfiles I'm going to have to say: Nil. The word for casting, I mean, not that I have no problems with magick. Seems to me like that is where all the complaints about easiness stems from, though I have no experience and wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong.

[mansa]

There's too many of them.

They wreck the plots that I have very easily, and manipulate the things I try and do VERY QUICKLY.

Most don't seem to care about being scary, more of being a killer.

[Salt Merchant]

The way the pot is being allowed to boil over. Why don't the staff step in and make some definitive rulings? Instead, we're left to argue among ourselves, with the only result being increased ill will.

[Qzzrbl]

There's too many of them.

They wreck the plots that I have very easily, and manipulate the things I try and do VERY QUICKLY.

Most don't seem to care about being scary, more of being a killer.

The way the pot is being allowed to boil over. Why don't the staff step in and make some definitive rulings? Instead, we're left to argue among ourselves, with the only result being increased ill will.

[Gimfalisette]

Magickers and other non-mundanes largely make mundanes irrelevant to whatever situation or plot they are involved in, when there are no social restrictions that keep mundanes relevant. Every category of endeavor (killing stuff, finding stuff, transportation, group safety, healing, spying, and more) that mundanes can do, some type of non-mundane can do far, far better (more quickly, more safely, more efficiently, more effectively). The prospect of making a mundane character in order to be useful to organizations, leaders, and plots is extremely daunting if those organizations / leaders / plots have established access to non-mundanes to do the work. Mundanes just can't compete in that kind of world. Even when I was playing an extremely competent, prominent, codedly capable mundane character, I was often held back from involvement in things because "oh, we'll have a magicker do it." The ONLY arena in which mundanes can still compete with non-mundanes is the socio-political; and yet, I've seen open use of magickers as aides and an overwhelming quantity of non-public use of non-mundanes by leadership. So the social restrictions clearly are not that great.

[Dalmeth]

I hate the way that, if you choose to play a magicker, your character will inexplicably be entirely useless at anything mundane that might be useful.

I mean, if magickers are -supposed- to be able to pwn noobz...why not let them cast fireballs -and- disarm people?

If balance is an issue, raise the karma requirements.  I'm tired of playing magickers that are completely useless at everything except melting faces.

If I ever play a magicker, it's going to be a special app.  I'm going to see if I can't get a couple specific skills so I don't have to be a magicker in everything I do.  From what I see, it really sucks.  The way things are now, they pretty much have to fly around and melt people's faces.

I'm just waiting for multiclassing in the next game.

[X-D]

I hate the way that, if you choose to play a magicker, your character will inexplicably be entirely useless at anything mundane that might be useful.

I mean, if magickers are -supposed- to be able to pwn noobz...why not let them cast fireballs -and- disarm people?

If balance is an issue, raise the karma requirements.  I'm tired of playing magickers that are completely useless at everything except melting faces.

That...cubed then doubled a few times.

I really think, at the very least there should be some mage only sub classes. Nothing like dual classing mind you, just a few other basic mundane skills. Some things to show that they are not simply face melting machines but people too. Or maybe even very high end natural branches. Or, at the very least have it so that it is easier to get skills added by staff to established mages who have put the work into it.

As to the like three or four posters above me, I think your perspectives on the subject are very scewed...at the very least. My last PC leader did 1236567235632 things and never hired a mage for it...though hiring a mage would have been easier only because they are starved for interaction. It tends to be HARD to hire mundanes for MANY tasks, even for very large sums of coin. Mansa, that was a joke post I hope...that or simple trolling.

[Yam]

There are far too many magickers and they are too weak.

Magickers aren't really that scary. They should be scary.

Really scary. A gifted Vivaduan should be able to boil your blood without breaking a sweat. A powerful Krathi should be able to incinerate huts with gestures.

There should be ~10 magicker characters at any given time. Not 50. I should not run into 5 magickers in the wastes in one day no matter how well played they are.

That's not scary. It's stupid. It makes me feel like I'm playing a Korean MMO.

[Forest Junkie]

There's too many of them.

They wreck the plots that I have very easily, and manipulate the things I try and do VERY QUICKLY.

Most don't seem to care about being scary, more of being a killer.

Sounds familiar to me mansa. Six months ago, we should have held a thread exactly like this, but about psionicists:

Frankly, there were too many of them.

They wrecked plots that I had easily, and manipulated the things I try and do VERY QUICKLY.

Most don't seem to care about being scary, more of being a killer.

*eyeroll* Grow up bub. You did to an entire CLAN what one pc did to you. You're upset at the fact that you had a bubble you felt was impenetrable, and someone popped that bubble of security and proved they could touch you.

My point? Stop complaining because of personal issues - anecdotal evidence is lame and only makes you look like a whiner. I was crushed when my beloved pc died to your coterie, but I sucked it up and have moved on. I no longer want to shoot you in the face with a cow-puncher. Let's move on, hrm?

Anyways, back on topic:

I've been playing this game a decade or so now, and I as well as a few others have a certain amount of perspective in regards to the amount of magickers in game:

*Ten years ago, the number of mages in game was, surprisingly, about the same.

*Ten years ago, mages were weak and able to be killed in a far more efficient and safe manner.

*Ten years later, and mages are stronger. Halaster mentioned this was intentionl - I feel some of the older players have yet to accept this.

*Ten years ago, the game wasn't ending. Plots were both magick and mundane intensive, depending on when and where you played. Does no one remember the kryl attacks? The wyvern at the Scaien? The undead rising from Undertuluk? All magickal, and all over five years ago, circa 2001 to 2003. Also, we had Ysania, Pearl, Sujaal, Kune (every damned incarnation of him) and a slew of other players who grew to such power and fame that they could change the world on the same level as an all powerful magicker, albeit on a different level. Merchant houses, mercenary units, and entire tribes were created and put into the game at the behest of these players. Name as many magickers as I have who accomplished as much, please... Exactly.

*Ten years later, the game is ending. One can look to the history and timeline and come to understand why it is magick has become more prevalent. Guess what folks: it's because a goddamn dragon, THE dragon, a magickal entity the size of the Superdome, practically destroyed Zalanthas in the past. Furthermore, the world was originally close to being destroyed by magick. Zalanthas and magick are inextricably linked, joined at the hip rather, and for one to assume that magick should not be as prevalent as it currently is, well...is flat-out incorrect.

Here's what I think the problem boils down to:

1) Mages used to not be as powerful, or not have the potential for said power.

2) This resulted in players being more trusted in playing them.

3) Mages are now more powerful, and can kill with relative ease. That's not to say mages from ten years ago couldn't be powerful - they simply couldn't get as powerful in such a short amount of time.

4) This point relates to the previous two: Magickers are more powerful now, so said expectations for players should be higher, correct? I'd agree they should be, but I have a feeling they currently aren't. This isn't to fault the staff, but rather to point out something that none of us have really discussed yet, or thought of as a potential problem.

5) Karma proved to be an excellent system for around a decade, but now a number of players have over five or six karma, therefore, we might see more powerful mages in the game than we once did.

6) Karma is, in my opinion, too easy to accrue. I believe that a new system of checks and balances should be put in place, namely a point system that allows one to choose a high option, yet be forced to wait at least a month or two before said option is open again, if not more. Perhaps raise the time required to wait for said refreshing of karma, depending on how high the role is on the karma-scale.

My point boils down to this:

I do not hate magickers. I love them. One of the guilds is my second favorite in the game, just behind the good ole ranger. However, some people do not like playing mundanes. They prefer mages. Nothing else other than what I presented above should be put in place to limit mages. We all play this game for fun, and I can promise you, if you force someone to play something they do not want to play, they will simply pack up and leave.

These next few months are going to be very trying. As the new game inches further towards completion, old players might leave, and new ones might come. I believe that older players have a different perspective on issues that have been around for some time. That's not to say said perspectives are better. They are merely different than a player who has been around for, say, five years or less.

[roughneck]

I don't like that some of the secrets and hidden things about the magick code are fairly common knowledge among the mages now that used to be unheard of and very secret.

I've passed on the story before where a four half-elf warrior I had, the first one after returning to the game after two years or so marches out, knocks out a magicker and looks in the pack later to discover four magick weapons.  I left my head down and left the magicker alive because I figured it could start up something cool.  The magicker I had knocked out passes my Sdesc to character who have never seen me, they contact me and use some of their serious shit.  The whole thing was lame, foraging in the desert with magick weapons in your pack, a four hour half-elf -having- something like that and then instead of letting it play out and see where the weapons end up or leaving it to the magicker I had knocked out to convince/trick me to come back or something they just pulled this move.

Obviously I'm not upset about losing a four hour character, this is just a situation that illustrates the frustration I get at times.  Magickers get buddy buddy and share too much shit that's supposed to be special and secret.  There is little subtlety.

I have never bothered much playing magickers because they're not really my style so I don't know what's really appropriate as far as magicker-magicker relationships whether it's between the different elementalists, gemmers to rogues, mages to sorcerers and so on.  It seems now they're all good friends and maybe that's cool with the docs and how you play a good magicker, like I said I don't know.  Right now... or at least a year ago they were all very buddy buddy and whether they admit it or not, it's because it makes them very powerful when they co-operate.

I think Mages have a good level of power right now, a high level Krathi can roast you before you can get two rounds off attack off and from one has been used on me I know there are some seriously mean elkrosian, whiran and nilazi shit out there too.  It's all stuff to be really scared about, and that's good.  I'd be all for them taking an even greater hit socially AND skill-wise.  If you're a magicker you've devoted your life to it, you're a black sheep with a gift that you couldn't ignore... because if you did ignore it you would be a soldier or a crafter, not a mage devoted to magick.  With the subclasses you can be shitty at a day job and if you want to be a bynner with combat skills like every krathi and elkros wants to be just join up and suck shit at it, it's not illegal to be shitty at something.  It's like saying you want to be studying full-time to be a medical doctor... but doing it in secret on weekends until you're a really good doctor.

I don't know how much sense that all made but anyways... I'd like to see magickers have to pay for their power.  Magickers are bottle fed, my opinion anyways and it would be difficult to change at this point after playing a couple and being involved with many others.

[Jenred]

My mage-er (pun intended... major) problem with magickers is that the mode in which they were built was not actively applied to other mundane classes, creating an interesting, fast-paced skill progression that makes others seem less interesting, and has been said before, less useful.

If the same amount of creativity/code-work had been put into mundane skills as magicker skills, I would probably ALWAYS play mundanes. But the fact is, that the way mundane's were designed seems to be a slightly nerfed form of standard ROM/DIKU code, with a few quirks (like the progression system, etc). I don't want to give away anything about how magicker skills are set up, but I believe the people that have played them for a bit will understand what I mean by it being a completely different system then mundanes (or maybe its just my opinion).

There are many things that could be done to improve mundane classes that would keep people playing them, and possibly detract from people playing non-mundanes. More elaborate skill-sets for each class would be a start, varying paths of progression, etc. Much of this, fortunately, is being worked on in Arm 2.0, so I guess they realized it being a problem in Arm 1.0.

Making the mundane guilds more useful (not necessarily more powerful, uber, etc) would also help alot in curbing my distaste at what seems negligent disregard for the non-magicker classes.

Making rangers more adept/realistic woodsmen/wanderers would help take the priority off Rukkians/Elkrans/Whirans/etc, by making them more sought out as travel companions as they should be - this could be something as simple as instead of needing to tame actual PCs, let it work with VNPCs or something, in areas likely to animals.

Making warriors more adept fighters (not saying make it easier or quicker to advance), by fleshing out their skillset some would make people prefer to play them as damage-dealers.

The same with thieves... why hire a sneaking thief to spy for you when there are many magickal alternatives that are safer, cheaper, and easier.


Anyways, getting a little off track. My main problem again, with magickers, is their seemingly better designed class-structure and skillsets as opposed to their mundane counterparts. It is hard to seperate two warrior/hunters of equal skill and playingtime. There is little variation, and it drives people to flood the more mysterious classes.

There are fire, wind, stone, shadow, lightning, water, and void elementalists, in addition to sorcerers and psionicists. That is eight non-mundane guilds to compete again warriors, rangers and assassins (3 semi-combat guilds), assassins, thieves, burglars (3 semi-sneaky guilds) and merchants. If I want to play a killing/damage type character type there is an obvious draw to these mysterious non-mundane classes that are rumored to be super-powerful mundane killers. And it shouldn't be that way necessarily.

[Pale Horse]

What Forest Junkie said.

p.s. The Wyvern attack on the Scaien... I loved that event..

[Barzalene]

I have only two problems with magickers, one is that I like that they're ostracized, and so I dislike when they're intergrated. I know, I know, a lot of you don't want to be afraid of them any more because you feel you oocly know too much about them and they're too prevalent. So, I guess I don't have a problem with magickers, I have a problem with all of you.

The other is that I think they're a bit omnipresent in the shadier parts of society. I think the stigma should extend there. I think that a magicker joining up with a criminal organization should have to lie about it, hide it, and be ashamed of what they are. Playing in certain areas shouldn't be a free pass.

[Forest Junkie]

I have only two problems with magickers, one is that I like that they're ostracized, and so I dislike when they're intergrated. I know, I know, a lot of you don't want to be afraid of them any more because you feel you oocly know too much about them and they're too prevalent. So, I guess I don't have a problem with magickers, I have a problem with all of you.

The other is that I think they're a bit omnipresent in the shadier parts of society. I think the stigma should extend there. I think that a magicker joining up with a criminal organization should have to lie about it, hide it, and be ashamed of what they are. Playing in certain areas shouldn't be a free pass.

I agree overall with what you're saying.

I'll take it a step further, though. If more of you feel like magickers shouldn't be so accepted by society, then I really think you need to take the appropriate steps to:

A) Stop hiring them if you're a noble

B) Stop hiring them if you run a criminal organization

C) Stop working with them if you're a hunter just because they can help you kill things easily.

I could go on and on. The point is, if those of you who think magickers are too prevalent in the game really want to see fewer numbers, then stop working with them. Encourage other players to stop working with them.  There are IC ways around this, believe me.

I can all but promise you that the day magickers become less accepted by society within the game, that will be the day you see less magickers in game.

[Lizzie]

I feel like lately, in certain areas of the world they've become more like "pest" mobs than PCs with unique personalities. It just seems like whenever you go to this or that place, you have to deal with "yet another" magicker. It's sad, when you have a character who -should- have a healthy fear, loathing, and distrust of them, to hear about one in an area and shrug it off, with an exasperated sigh "Oh, another one?"

It's starting to get a little old now.

[Forest Junkie]

I feel like lately, in certain areas of the world they've become more like "pest" mobs than PCs with unique personalities. It just seems like whenever you go to this or that place, you have to deal with "yet another" magicker. It's sad, when you have a character who -should- have a healthy fear, loathing, and distrust of them, to hear about one in an area and shrug it off, with an exasperated sigh "Oh, another one?"

It's starting to get a little old now.

It sounds like you're letting OOC feelings affect your play in game. Regardless of whether or not you're tired of mages out of the game, it shouldn't be relatively hard for you to roleplay fear or supersition in the game. This is another problem I think lies with the players of mundanes, and not magickers. It's not their fault that your OOC knowledge has lead you to not fear them. It's also not their fault that your allowing said OOC perceptions affect your in game play. That, to me, sounds like a problem you and a few other people should look into correcting.

Place blame where it is needed, please.

[FuSoYa]

I've rarely if ever been friendly with magickers.  And haven't been friendly with breeds or elves or rinth scum et cetera since I figured out humans don't care for their sort.  

I still think alot of it is up to the players.  

So as for problems with magickers... well none really.  I've still yet to play one, been busy with other roles but I will eventually and guess what?  I'm not going to feel the least bit bad about it.

Brandon

[Lizzie]

It sounds like you're letting OOC feelings affect your play in game. Regardless of whether or not you're tired of mages out of the game, it shouldn't be relatively hard for you to roleplay fear or supersition in the game. This is another problem I think lies with the players of mundanes, and not magickers. It's not their fault that your OOC knowledge has lead you to not fear them. It's also not their fault that your allowing said OOC perceptions affect your in game play. That, to me, sounds like a problem you and a few other people should look into correcting.

Place blame where it is needed, please.

My OOC feelings are, my character SHOULD quake in fear at just the MENTION of an abomination wreaking havoc in the neighborhood. Unfortunately, my character has heard about one abomination per RL week, every week, for the past two RL months, wreaking havoc in the same neghborhood. It's getting old for my character, because SHE is tired of it. And she shouldn't have to be. Magicks should be SO rare, that they inspire fear when you hear it is close. But it is SO common, that it's easy to just shrug it off and say "so go kill them, and don't forget to pick me up a quart of milk on the way home."  What *I* am getting tired of, is having to work SO hard at maintaining a fearful attitude in my character of something that is as common as a gortok.

I'm not blaming anyone. I'm a little irritated that you feel you have to blame me, for roleplaying my character how I feel is appropriate, given the circumstances she is exposed to, of which I hope you know nothing about.

[Forest Junkie]

My OOC feelings are, my character SHOULD quake in fear at just the MENTION of an abomination wreaking havoc in the neighborhood.

Wait, stop right there. I cut off the rest of the quote because this is what we should focus on right now. If you feel your character should act a certain way, then I suggest you have them act that way, regardless of how many mages you run into.

I'm not blaming anyone.

You expressed distress and frustration earlier, going so far as to liken some magickers to "pest" mobs. I ask of you, if you were not blaming the players for your frustration, then what were you doing?

I'm a little irritated that you feel you have to blame me, for roleplaying my character how I feel is appropriate, given the circumstances she is exposed to, of which I hope you know nothing about.

I didn't have to blame you for anything. You freely admitted that you allow your own perception of mages and their alleged rise in numbers bring about a change within your own pc. I'm sorry, but it's not that hard to adhere to the documentation. If it says you should more than likely fear mages, then I suppose you're just going to have to be roleplaying fear more than you intended to. Sorry if that's not the answer you were looking for.

Guys, Zalanthas is a big place. But it can only be so big. There are only so many spots for mages to live so that they don't bother you with their existence. If you are in the wastes and see a mage or ten in an area, I have advice for you: stop going there. Pull out your hair and scream. Run away, go somewhere else! Find a new spot to hunt. It's not like mages are crawling about like a hill of ants. People are bantering about exaggerated numbers and that is what's getting old to me.

[Lizzie]

Well it was an interesting debate. Unfortunately FJ, you are baiting people into rebutting your arguements with IC information, which you know isn't allowed. The only way to say "you are incorrect, FJ," is to cite IC info, to explain exactly why you are incorrect. And since we're not allowed to do that, the discussion is ended, and you get to blame all the mundanes for not paying attention to the docs. And so, you win.

[Malken]

Edited because Lizzie is right, we're not supposed to argue in this thread, just post what our problems with magickers are and move on.